Legal ramifications?

[pasoloco]

Does anyone know if there are any internet laws or is there any legal ramifications for selling a horse via the internet.?
If you have a buyer that has committed to buying a horse thru emails and makes all the promises that a seller wants to hear and the seller makes it possible for said buyer to pick this horse up by scheduled pick up date. and at the last minute pulls out of the sale. Would buyer not be responsible for all fees incurred thus far? And would seller get in trouble if they let the horse world know of the unfairness of said individual?

[Edurne]

contract laws! you could say that anything that is in writing (I believe that handshake contracts are still legal) is contractual, and if you have incurred expenses in getting the horse ready you could probably bill for that. You may have to go to "Small Claims" to actually collect.

I would say that in any business interaction you can state facts. Those facts do not have to be kept private.

Contracts in any business fall through, are cancelled or broken. The problems with contracts is ensuring performance to stated or implied standards. So the question of fairness is mute.... it comes down to facts.

[Carol Nelson]

Welcome to the world of horse sales! :roll: ;-)

People really don't have any idea of the work I go through to sell a horse to them when they contact me over the Internet. Most often it is a horse that I am selling for someone else as mine aren't rideable yet, and I do broker a few.
First I contact the owner and get all the particulars (I am the go-between between seller and buyer...I get paid to do that, a ten percent commission paid by the seller...so I feel I need to do a good job). Nine times out of ten, I haul a video camera up to where the horse is located, and do a nice video of the horse, showing ground manners, lunging, and of course, tacking up and riding if the horse is rideable. Most farms are a good distance apart so I may end up driving two hours to do so, at these gas prices, already my profit goes down.
Then I bring home the video, edit it (only to cut out shots of the ground, or trees...if the horse misbehaves...it usually stays on...the buyer deserves to see that too!), copy it to a VHS tape, and package it, again...drive it to the post office...and mail it Priority Mail.
There is nothing more disappointing than having a prospective buyer not return my calls after they've gotten the tape... or say that they're not interested. Do I have any recourse?... of course not. Do they have every right in the world to do so. Of course, they do.
Then it's more facilitating feedback and response between seller and buyer, hopefully there's a sale in which I do the paperwork for each, drawing up a bill of sale, making sure registration papers are in order, and checking to see that the health certificate and Coggins are there. I have even been known to drive a sale horse to the vet myself to get the Coggins when a seller hasn't had a trailer. We have also provided hauling services on occasion which of course the buyer pays extra for.
Your question is...is there recourse for them taking you all the way to the sale and then backing out?? Only for anything that you had in writing. I look at it this way...they probably weren't the ones for that particular horse anyway and it's better off.
Of course, there is nothing preventing you by privately tipping off other breeders or sellers about this party should you hear that they have gone to them looking for a horse.
But it all boils down to how much work are you willing to do without pay. I only hope that if I treat these people well, my reputation will spread and it will benefit me in the long run.

(Will add that if the buyer and seller are local...I go WITH the buyer to look at the horse...if it's not been ridden for awhile, my partner goes along to work the horse and ride it if it appears safe...so this is what one gets when you buy a horse from a reputable broker...so the next time someone quotes you a TEN PERCENT COMMISSION...be assured that commission doesn't go a long ways for that broker. Unless it's a $10,000 horse...and who of us regularly sells them! ;-) )

[Helene]

Local brokers are mostly ok, but what do you think about a broker calling you from another state wanting a commission for giving the seller's phone number to a prospective buyer? No other work...The seller is to send all info (including video) to the prospective buyer and do all negotiations himself. How much commission .. if it does come to a sale...would be fair for that phone call?
Back to the subject of selling a horse via internet. I have done so a few times. I have sent DVD's and videos...which are a "pain" to make for me, since I have to beg my teenage daughter to present the horse and show it for me (so I can do the taping) without even getting any acknowledgment that it even had been received. I really don't mind a rejection, but a "thank you, I got it" note would be nice. It would also be nice if the prospective buyer would send the tape back...which hardly ever happens. I've had requests of showing certain things on a video, that I hadn't taught my foals, yet....so there goes some time to teach that baby. I don't mind it, though, since the baby should be taught anyway....
If I do come to an agreement, though, I ask for cash before I do anything in preparation for the shipment and ask the horse to be paid for in full before it leaves the premises. The buyer arranges for all shipment costs, himself. I know it shows a lot of trust from the buyer to send money off to someone, unknown. That is when the seller's reputation comes in. I would never, as a buyer, buy a horse from a person that I have never heard about...I don't do so with other stuff, either.
I don't consider a horse sold until the check has cleared (cash money is in my hands) and the horse left my place (something could happen to the horse before it leaves my place, in which case I would have to refund the buyer's money)....
What is the recourse for the buyer when the horse arrives and it isn't what expected? There is a lot of risk on both sides when buying over the internet....I, as a seller, want to show everything possible on my horse since I want the buyer to be happy, so my horse will have a good home. I try to make a video that shows everything about the horse, good and bad. That's when my tapes are lenghty and boring as this message....

[appyday]

Was it a bid type contracted site?? Did you have a written contract? Sorry you are SOL.....happens all the time...Did you have a deposit? Non refundable deposits are made for these reasons to help cover your costs if they back out.

[Carol Kuiper]

Recently I had a buyer contact me through the internet about a yearling filly I have for sale. I sent them pictures and information. We exchanged several emails, set up a pick-up date and they told me they were having a halter made with her name on it. I then asked for their information so that I could prepare a sales contract for them to sign and return along with a deposit, some of which would be non-refundable. The only contact I have had since that last email is one that says that they are sorry that they cannot deal with me and that they hope the filly finds a good home.

Luckily, I was not out any money. But there is a person representing themselves as a buyer that in my opinion is just leading people on.

[Carol Nelson]

Local brokers are mostly ok, but what do you think about a broker calling you from another state wanting a commission for giving the seller's phone number to a prospective buyer? No other work...

Ha...I had an email from another local so-called breeder (as she calls herself...very poor quality animals, poor business practices) and she wanted to know how much commission I would pay her for giving my number to a customer? I patiently explained what I just stated in my post above, and asked if it would be fair for me to pay her a commission for just giving out my number. (This woman had already stiffed me on buying a foal in utero...so I was cautious.)
Needless to say, I never heard back...and never got a call from the customer either.

However, I did refer a young girl from Germany to a good friend of mine, which ultimately did end up in a sale, and I had also sent her a couple who had been to my farm and saw Rojo Tejas, and ultimately bought his half sister. The first time she sent me a very nice gratuity, and the second time a beautiful Paso Fino statue. So...hey, that is a class act. Even though I hadn't done much to earn the gifts, she still saw fit to reward me for what I had done!

(Did I ever mention the sale where my commission turned out to be six laying hens??? The couple was poor with four children and they needed to sell the horse, and I needed the chickens! Worked out fine for me!) :D

[Abejita]

And would seller get in trouble if they let the horse world know of the unfairness of said individual?

Well lets see..Yes you COULD if there is no written proof.(and I am not sure how emails hold up. Might depend on your state laws)And when you say 'the horse world' do you mean put it all over the internet? (like this BB for example)There is a big difference from privately and without exaggeration letting someone you know is dealing with this bad egg about your 'dealings' with the 'egg'. It would also not look good for you as a business person to air the dirty laundry especially if you do not have concrete proof. If this is a PFHA member you can find out if there any other complaints lodged against the 'egg' PFHA will not do anything in disagreements unless there is a court ruling either.

[Privatetreaty]

All of you have very interesting stories to tell.

Not everyone will do something for no compensation, like what Carol Nelson did.
I guess Carol will agree with me when I say:
Acts like these will earn you brownie points, redeemable in heaven.


There are people who are into horses for a living. I can respect that. A fee for passing along a client is just a referral fee. It is not as much as person who "brokers" the entire deal (brings the client, sells the horse, etc).

Edurne is right. Without something in writing, nothing is enforceable. Enforceability on oral contracts vary from state to state. Money tends to keeps people steady.

Best case scenario:
Contract and deposit in hand.
Then they default.
You can keep their deposit, extremely hard to force someone to buy.
The only recourse is to bring suit for "specific performance".
I would think that specific performance is difficult in these cases, unless you have a very expensive horse and you can prove a substantial loss.

[Privatetreaty]

Does anyone know if there are any internet laws or is there any legal ramifications for selling a horse via the internet.?

I would think that the key question in this case would be, what laws apply in your state.

[Carol Nelson]

Not everyone will do something for no compensation, like what Carol Nelson did.

Privatetreaty, you have NO IDEA how many things I have done for no compensation! :roll: ;-) (and I'll bet there's a lot of others out there who've done the same...)
HOWEVER, I don't think there's a soul out there that can say too much bad about me...and I am proud to say that a lot of my clients have become close personal friends! :smile:
That's the way I want to keep it!

[Helene]

Currently, I am in negotiations with a lady on a two year old filly I have for sale. She wants her in November. She asked me what I would charge to keep her till then and what to put down as a downpayment to hold her... I wonder what if she pays me and something unforeseen happens to the filly?...I understand to refund the down payment, but what about the maintenance costs, like feed, farrier, shots...that were paid till November. Would they have to be refunded, too??? I hate selling horses...

[Privatetreaty]

Currently, I am in negotiations with a lady on a two year old filly I have for sale. She wants her in November. She asked me what I would charge to keep her till then and what to put down as a downpayment to hold her... I wonder what if she pays me and something unforeseen happens to the filly?...I understand to refund the down payment, but what about the maintenance costs, like feed, farrier, shots...that were paid till November. Would they have to be refunded, too??? I hate selling horses...

I purchase two horses a couple months prior to 2004 Nationals, but I didn't want to send them to the trainer, because I knew the trainer would be busy preparing horses for Nationals. I wanted to send them after Nationals.

I paid for the horses and boarded the horses with the seller for two months. Later, the trainer picked them up from the seller.

But, I paid for the horses in full first, then I cut a separate check for boarding.

[Carol Nelson]

Helene, I did something much similar with myself as the buyer, only I paid for the horse, and then paid board for the horse for the two more months it was there. Agreement was that if something happened to the horse, I would get my purchase price refunded, but they kept the board which was only right.

[Helene]

Thanks a bunch, Privatetreaty and Carol. That makes sense. I should think how I would do it and what you suggest is what I would do if I bought. I wish I had seen this before I got back with her. I gave her two options...one was to wait till November and if the filly is still here "it was meant to be". The other was...no down payment and a certain amount for board each month I kept the filly, full purchase amount before she leaves my place....But I kept thinking...what if something happened between now and then...
And Carol...most all the people I have sold horses to, are dear to me now. The lady who bought my first horse I sold to 10 years or so ago (an Arab)...we still have lunch together every month. It wasn't even my horse, I brokered it for another friend. Didn't get a commission, from either buyer or seller...but gained a long time friend. Another fellow who bought a gelding from me last year, called me today to let me know his mare had a baby this morning...not by my gelding and not a mare I sold him...

[PasoVicki]

Helene, I did something much similar with myself as the buyer, only I paid for the horse, and then paid board for the horse for the two more months it was there.

This is just my (perhaps incorrect) impression, but what Helene is describing sounds a little different. It sounds as though Helene's customer wants to give her a deposit to hold the filly for almost five months. That seems, to me, unreasonable on the part of the buyer. Even if the deposit were non-refundable, it seems Helene could easily be the big loser if the buyer changed her mind and Helene has to go back to square one, at the beginning of winter, in advertising and selling her filly.

[Serendipity]

Just coming out of an internet sale the gentalman the wanted Jibaro(and is very pleased with him :D )once he said yes I want this horse I had him send me a non refundable deposit of $500 sent to my paypal once I had that if I'd have gone done and he would have not liked him I'd have just brought him home the depsit covered my expences and a practiis i believe I will do as standered from know on.

[Privatetreaty]

I agree 100% PasoVicky.
What would Helene gain by "warehousing" a horse for someone who has nothing in the deal?

You can't put horses on lay-away.
Sometimes buyers get confused and they think they're still at the Sears store.


By the way, I forgot to mention something. I could have brought the horses to Miami after I gave the seller a check and kept them here for two months. But, I bought them in the Ocala area and they were going to South Carolina for training. They were closer to the trainer.

[Carol Nelson]

A lot of times, people do that, PasoVicky, and yes, it is an inconvenience, but it all depends on how Helene wants to do it. Sometimes...it ain't so easy to sell a horse, and she may really want to get that signed, sealed, and done. The non-refundable deposit would be the "insurance" should the deal fall through and she end up keeping the horse through the winter...
If it were one of my horses, this is how I would do it. If it were only a month to a month and a half, I would take a non-refundable deposit on the horse. Then I would keep the horse free of charge for the buyer until they could get the horse shipped. Full payment before the horse leaves the premises. Any vet or farrier charges...responsibility of the buyer.
If it were five months...I would insist on the deposit, perhaps set up payments if they needed...and charge a board starting with the date the sales contract is signed and the deposit is handed over. Again, vet charges and farrier charges...the responsibility of the buyer.
CONTRACTS...have everything spelled out...you would laugh at my contracts..while easy to understand, everything is spelled out to protect me AND the buyer.