Morgan blood in PR Pasos?

[Fuego]

I've heard gaited Morgans were imported into Puerto Rico in the 60's as outcrosses for the breed, to rejuvinate a gene pool that had become very limited.

I've heard this from more then one Morgan breeder.

Can anybody shed any light on this for me? Truth ? Rumor?

Actually, I do see similarities between Pasos and the original type Morgan, especially in temprament and energy, and 'heart'.
I have even pondered if Figure, the origanl Morgan Horse whose exact origins have never been established ( last I heard), hadn't been influenced by some Spanish blood. But I never thought about gaited Morgans influencing the PR Paso Finos ... had never heard it before recently, either.

Anybody ??????????

[SandyMM]

I would say the old style Morgans were more Paso-looking and likely related with the Paso being the older of the two by far...

[Candice Burger]

There is a discussion about this on pasopedigree.com under the PPR forum. I can't remember the precise title of the topic. I'd do a search and look for sugar cane plantations. They are the ones the imported stock from the USA to use on their plantations.

Yes, Morgans, some TN Walkers, Narangansett Pacers, and maybe a Saddlebred or two were imported and mixed with PPR horses. However, the influence was minimal and the experiments short-lived. I think the time frame was more in the 1950's rather than 60's but I am not sure of this.

Of course the most popular gossip is that Dulce Sueno had Morgan blood in him.

To me it doesn't matter because the PPR paso has retained all of it's original phenotype and is the most consistent in producing it.

[Bonnie LR]

Just to throw some more thinking into the mix, lol. The Canadian Horse is said to have influenced the Morgan significantly. Here is a site to give more info on that. Just because I am a fan and now own one, lol, and have no Paso to brag about....and he is arriving home TODAY.....lol
http://www.imh.org/imh/bw/canada.html

[SandyMM]

Of course the most popular gossip is that Dulce Sueno had Morgan blood in him.

Interesting thesis, but in fact - which came first - the Paso or the Morgan? How come nobody asks about Paso blood in Morgans??? Wonder where _their_ gate came from??? Hmmmmmm?

[stella]

There is documentation in the Morgan registry of 3 horses being imported to PR by one of the large sugar plantations that also bred Pasos in the early '20s, and Dr Laracuente's book, which has a pretty detailed history of the pure Puertorrican PasoFino in it, and I know he spent alot of time researching it thoroughy, says the Dept of Agriculture permitted some outcrossing of Morgans, arabs, etc. in 1925, to try to increase size and the genetic pool, but wasnt considered successful when it came to gait.(paraphrasing whats in the book)
By the '60s, is when they brought in a few Colombian stallions, such as Anfitrion, Leo, Carussel, and a few mares. However, they were registered in Assn National, and not the Federation registry, which decided to remain pure PR, only, and has.

[Fuego]

Interesting thesis, but in fact - which came first - the Paso or the Morgan? How come nobody asks about Paso blood in Morgans??? Wonder where _their_ gate came from??? Hmmmmmm?[/quote]

Actually I have raised that very topic on a Morgan BB very recently. With the original Morgan horse, Figure's origins unknown, and similarities with in the breeds, is it too much of stretch to think Figure had some Spanish influence. I have heard one rumor that one of Figure's parents was a Mustang( maybe a Spanish type gaited Mustang??). All speculation on my part.

But if outcrosses had become neccessary in Puerto Rico, I can see why a gaited Morgan may have seemed like a good choice, based on the breed similarities.

[stella]

Historically, the "blame" in both breeds tends to go to "the Narragansett Pacer", from the Mass/RI area, which are now extinct.

[finolover]

a breeder of Q/h racing horses here is lookin, and thinking he wants to cross a paso with an arabian, says it will be hot endurance horse.
:?:

[Carol Nelson]

How do they manage to do this and then get the offspring registered????

[Terry Wallace]

Easy Carol.... it was Quite easy to do....remember, DNA testing has only been in existance for 12(?) years? So...whatever came before that, it would have been easy to say whatever one liked, especially say 20 years ago...and actually happened much more recent than that with some TWH blood being introduced into some Paso Finos in Georgia, in an effort to "up size" them.

Now, for the past 12 years....we are "stuck" with whatever breeds blood was crossed, as its "already there" and accepted as part of this breed.
Many breeds were crossed with the PF.... TWH, Standardbred, Naragansette Pacer, to name a few.

Nobody should really dispare about it though...if its three gens (or farther) back, why even concern yourself... the phenotype is strong in both PR and Colombian stock... stick with good phenotype..ALWAYS! ;-)

[SandyMM]

actually happened much more recent than that with some TWH blood being introduced into some Paso Finos in Georgia, in an effort to "up size" them

Was it your intention to cast doubt on the breeding integrity of every Paso in Georgia......? Blanket statements like that damage innocent breeders' reputations and do nothing to stop unethical practices.

[Terry Wallace]

Nope...not at all Sandy.... but it DID happen there, I DO know the breeder, and all this talk of any breed being PURE is BS anyway....

Did I say don't buy Georgia Paso Finos .....NO

Did I say don't buy any from the D.R.....NO

Did I say don't buy any from P.R......NO

Did I say don't buy any from Colombia......NO

So just where did you come up with that? Thanks so much for putting words in my mouth.

DNA testing will stop unethical practices to a large extent...NOT SO of horses bred before DNA testing.... you cannot turn back the test clock 20 years....

[SandyMM]

Did I say don't buy Georgia Paso Finos .....NO
No - but you did pair 'Georgia Paso' and 'TWH cross' with the implication that they might be passed off as Pasos.

What if someone said they were pretty sure a lot of scrub Pasos were sent out to your state early on... If it was true - what would that do to people's assumptions about the quality of Pasos available there?

I am positive there have been many outcrosses in Paso blood. Fortunately, there are still some people who manage to get breedings and bloodlines back on track... I can't help that there are unethical people, but I can refrain from making blanket claims that negatively impact innocent breeders.

[Terry Wallace]

Oh good grief Sandy.... I had no intention of "negatively impacting innocent breeders"...that is a real stretch on your part.
PS..those TWH / Paso crosses WERE passed off as pure Paso Finos.

I should have known your stance would be "don't ask don't tell"..
Well...here is a news flash for you...

I will NOT be censored by you...PERIOD.

Here is another news flash..... there were indeed MANY subrate/cull Pasos brought into the united states.... and there still are.
Did some end up in Colorado....well, could be....I was not into Pasos at the time. Are there cull Paso Finos in Colorado.....you betcha!
Are there cull Paso Finos in Georgia....oh, why no...in Gerogia they are all "perfect"..... :roll: