From pasopedigree. Tail Alterations and the Vote.

[Pasofinoguy]

I thought this was important for both show and non show people to see. So I brought it here.

fkeepanion..........I was recently at the youth mundial and had the opportunity to speak with are PFHA president Robin Ratliff, about tail cutting. I think this is a very important issue that all members should be aware of. In case you dont know what I'm talking about this issue went to vote back in January weather to make it legal or to enforce the rule as it stands. The result of the vote was to enforce the rule, so are association lead by CJ has been in contact with a vet from the quarter horse association that says he can tell if a horses tail has been altered.The consequences of this means any horse after a certain amount of time that they choose, would be baned from competition for life. This issue will be voted on again in January 07,everyone needs to vote.



CarlosLopez.......
Hello this rule is 100% against the culture of the PasoFino.
If we can not alter the tail why we can gelding a Stallion? This issue has Benn the only project the President of PFHA in Benn interesting why????.
I will like to let the world the altered the tail is part of our culture and we invite all members to vote ageing this rule.

[Privatetreaty]

ooowwwee, there's gonna be a fight at OK Corral.

You guys have seen pictures of my horses, no tail cuts.
I do have to admit, it does change the whole look of the horse.


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[Pasofinoguy]

I wont now or ever alter on of my horses tails. I just dont like it. But thats just how i feel. I dont see the point of it all. A paso with brio can hold its tail out just fine.

I cant wait for the outcome of the vote. I want to see how many vote for and against it. It already a rule in the pfha that you cant do it but they dont enforce that rule. So why have it. Will they enforce this rule if it passes. I dont think they will. We as a culture can make and rules all day long but if they arent enforced then they dont mean a thing. So now what. Take the rule out of the books or do something about it. What if they do something about it. WIll another registry form and the pfha will go the way of registry before that. what was it called. Something like pfhoba.

[GeorgeGuns]

I've got two takes on this, a little conflicitng:

1) the person responsible for the cutting needs to be punished, not the horse. But how do you prove that? What about horses coming into the country that are cut in a region where its considered okay? I rather think that we can only rightfully enforce this on horses born on US soil. Right or wrong I don't think its politic to try and enforce this on horses that aren't natives here

What about horses that are already showing that are under suspicion? What will this do to the rank and file in the arena? Can we put a date on it: horses born after ie: 1/1/05 in the US that show verifiable evicence of tail cutting. IOW what's done is done, but lets live to the future.

I can see banning horses that have a botch job. These horses look rediculous and set a bad air for newcomers and some of us already in it.

I can see banning from BF classes - cutting a tail is falsifying the form of the horse and should not under any circumstance be allowed in the Bella Forma classes.

CarlosLopez has a point: a well done tail job may well be a more humane procedure than a geld,and to add to that, its a clean sight more humane than some of the shoe jobs I've seen at shows and even outside the show ring.

2) The best way to clean it up is to get tough and allow absolutely NO altered tails. I have a pasture full of natural tails that are incredibly expressive of the Paso Fino, and well within any cultural aesthetic values. Many folks have fair success with massaging, and yes its time intensive, but it also feels good to the horse, and may well even have some theraputic value.

A total ban will start fires initially and temproraily interrupt the flow of horses about the globe, but in the long run, it will make people think about what they are doing. We could well see many horses not coming to the US to show, that may be bad or good depending on how you look at it. That would prove the real quality of our trainers and breeders, It would show the rest of the horseworld that we are serious. Would it turn the show world in a good way though? Will our attendances suffer - maybe, in a few regions - but again the long run may prove worth it.

Lots to think about on this one.

[CarolU]

This statement here is TOTALLY UNTRUE:

The consequences of this means any horse after a certain amount of time that they choose, would be baned from competition for life.

What they are proposing is a Grandfather Clause date. The rule would start being enforced on _________date. All horses born before that date the rule would not apply to and they could compete, breed, etc. through their entire life. It would apply to ALL horses born after that date, including imported horses.

The results of the study are in. The procedure to determine if a tail is cut is simple, does not require a machine of any sort, and apparently is very accurate. A horse with an altered tail can not hold the tail out when the butt is stimulated. A horse with a natural tail can and will.

So, now the decision really IS up to the MEMBERSHIP...and we can decide if we have/show a natural breed or not.

So as MEMBERS, it is up to YOU to determine how your vote is cast. If you are in a region which does not vote the members votes as the members want, proxy your vote!

[appyday]

Ummm Apps QH and Paints all have had tail jobs banned from competition...We now either don't do it or just "knock it down some" I can't believe you need a vet to tell you...Ray Charles could see it...I knew right off the bat when a tail job started wearing off...not sure of the difference between QH tail job or Paso tail jobs but I would think a well trained eye could tell...oh and yeah I have had a tail job done on a few..I do feel bad for the horses with tail jobs that are not "kept up" ie sprays, fly sheets etc...I always knew mine had a tail job and took appropriate measures..

[LynnG]

Okay some former owner of my stallion had his tail cut...he has a scar. he does not have the scorpion tail look. He was shown in Classic Fino Amateur Owner Stallions back in mid-1990's and did okay in that class showing regionally. So because he was classified as being fino...someone took it upon themsleves to cut the nerves in part of his tail for that "fino horse" look. He can not swish flies off his back..he does not have full use of his tail like my other horses do. So after the showing career is over, he still has a damaged partly in-affective tail to use for a fly swatter...actually what tails are meant for on horses. Interesting I see some of his foals have a natural arc to their tails anyway when movingand excited.

You can't compare cutting a tail with gelding a male horse. That is so rediculous. Licensed vets will geld a horse, a veterinary procedure but will not cut a horse's tail which involves cutting.... its an ethical choice.

[CarolU]

BTW - I was at the membership meeting in January in California. If you remember there were numerous proposed rule changes to the rule book to do away with the rules against tail alterations on the grounds that they were not being enforced anyway. At that meeting the membership voted overwhelmingly to leave ALL the rules against altering tails in the rule book. At the meeting it was discussed at length and the majority voted to enforce the rule.

The next step was to see IF it could be enforced and a study was proposed to determine if it could be. Fred Morietti graciously paid to have this study done. The results were just sent to all the BOD delegates and it was very easy for the veternarian to identify which horses had had their tail's altered vs those with natural tails.

I just read the thread on Charlie's board and want to clarify some misinformation in those psots.

1) It is not the same as gelding because it is done purely for cosmetic reasons and does nothing to help the welfare or normal herd life of the horse. If we didn't geld 90% of males they would have to be destroyed.

2) It is NOT done humanely or with the use of anesthesia for the horse. Dr. Lauracuente had a video of a tail job being done that I understand was very bloody, violent and upsetting. I do wish someone with a copy of this video would upload it to the internet so it could be used to end this arguement. The Confepasso judges at the clinic he showed this video signed a paper that they would no longer place horses with altered tails.

3) It does permanently change the use of the tail for the horse (like Lynn describes) and no longer permits not just normal fly-swating, but 'communication' from the horse. Horses TALK with their tails...they warn others not to approach and they show when they are unhappy. When you cut the nerves in the tail and train continually with the tail tied down, you eleminate the swishy tail which would tell a judge that a horse was upset or in pain.

but the MAIN reason to enforce the rule is that 4) The majority of members in PFHA want the rule enforced. This has already been voted on and is a 'done deal.' This is not a CJ or Robin championed cause. This is and has been an issue with the majority of owners for a long time. What CJ pointed out and he was right to do so, that the age-long arguement that it couldn't be enforced is invalid. Other breeds check tails, we can too.

[Lois York]

Well said Carol and Lynn!
I've seen the horses in the ring winning for years with altered tails. It's sad to think what these animals have went through to have a tail done. And I've seen some horses with botched up jobs too. Sickening!
But at one time I did think of having it done to improve the chances of my one horse at being a national contender. But I couldn't go through with it...they will have to do it on they're own merrit...and without a tail job!

[Pasofinoguy]

Think about this. If cutting tails is so right then why dont those who do it put ad's in the pfhw saying that they cut tails. They dont so whats that say about what they do.

People get others to cut tails and its all done in secret. Behind close doors this is allowed to go on.

Nothen will ever change this will go on long after we all leave this earth.

[appyday]

So by Lynns post I assume there are trainers and such doing the jobs not vets??? That happens with the Apps too..I always had a vet do it..and followed up with antibiotics and cold hosing...has ALWAYS been easier to me then a gelding...but I have never had a botched job either...tail or gelding

[LynnG]

My vet told me basicly it is not practicing veterinary medicine to cut tails; that is what they do...veterinary medicine. They take an oath.

its too bad AND sad, as appy said they need fly repellent and fly sheets........ its true. He is my only horse that has a fly sheet and also the one that gets the most fly repellent applied daily during fly season. Once a horse's show career is over...the horse is the one who lives with the results of cosmetic surgery. People can forget about the horse once not showing and if not breeding, and turn it out to pasture. I doubt most don't get fly sheets, and how many get repellent applied. The saving grace is they may have another horse's tail as a fly swatter when grouped together.

[Privatetreaty]

What is it with people?
Is it that they don't care or too stupid?

I've never seen anybody at my barn apply fly spray to their cut tailed horses.
They don't even take them out of the stall for months.
That's why they're all climbing the walls.

I pay a girl to turn mine out five days a week.

[Pasofinoguy]

Well the name calling started on pasopedigree. LoL someone said that gelding is worse then cutting the tail. Oh lord.

[LynnG]

PrivateTeaty,
my guy though age 25 is pretty high energy. He does not like to be confined in a box. He likes to go in at night in a stall, but he expects to go out during the day where he can see all the other horses, mares and foals. I put him up a canopy tarp that he will stand under so he can view his kingdom, and have some shade...There are also trees..but the view is not quite as good there. He gets his exercise, and keeps his peace of mind by being able to watch the others, plus gets some grazing in. If he is happy, I am happy! and vice versa. And really bad hot or rainy days, I may put him in the stall then and maybe with a fan....but he still wants to see the other horses....his mares and children! Its that natural stallion instinct.

[Privatetreaty]

Well the name calling started on pasopedigree. LoL someone said that gelding is worse then cutting the tail. Oh lord.

A man probably said that, right?

[Privatetreaty]

Lynn, it is amazing how many people here in Miami, don't ride their horses, have them locked up all the time and the stalls are dark.
I just don't understand it. :(

[Brigitte]

Think about this. If cutting tails is so right then why dont those who do it put ad's in the pfhw saying that they cut tails. They dont so whats that say about what they do.

People get others to cut tails and its all done in secret. Behind close doors this is allowed to go on.

Nothen will ever change this will go on long after we all leave this earth.

They probably don't put ads because they know other people don't approve. You don't see doctors saying they do abortions do you?

[Pasofinoguy]

So now you take it to killing babies. They dont put ad's up cause its against the rules. Plan and simple.
Brigitte wrote

[quote]Yeah natural right ,because gelding is something we humans do, it's not natural.

[quote]

No gelding is not natural but instead of killing all the stallions gelding is a better way. Why dont you try living with a farm full of stallions. See what its like.

[Brigitte]

I just made a comparison. And you answered for yourself too, they don't put ads up because tail cutting is against the rules isn't it?

And I was pointing out that she said that they geld horses so they can live in a natural herd envoirement or something like that. But there's nothing natural about it because being a gelding isn't natural. If we really wanted horses to live in a natural herd envoirement we shouldn't have tamed them years and years ago. If that is the problem, then gelding doesn't solve it. We should just turn them all loose and tada, natural herd envoirement

[Pasofinoguy]

Well a natural herd envoirement would only have one stallion per group of mares. This herd stallion will run off his sons or any other stallion that comes around. Unless he looses a fight then another stallion will take over. So you could have that on any farm. Some farms will turn a stallion out with there mares with no problem. But you can only have one stallion. And gelding isnt the topic of this tread. We can start a new one if you want. Read the past post. A horse is gelded by a vet. A horses tail is cut by joe smoe. Big difference. For me I dont care if you or anyone else has a horse with a cut tail. Thats not my problem. I just wish that if the pfha has the rule then they do something about it or lose that rule. If I lose a class because my horse has a reg tail then thats fine. I wont cry.

[LynnG]

I believe the issue that was voted on and being discussed (again now) was tail cutting, not gelding (We have many special programs for geldings in PFHA).

To sidestep the issue, name calling, changing the subject doesn't change the initial issue... and gets no where besides distracting from the content.

Its an important topic. All theONFEPASO judges signed an agreement against tailcutting is my understanding....... it won't make a difference in their placements .....cut tail or not.

Mariquita first won her Grand Natl Championship in Fino without a cut tail. And many people even made note of that fact to each other. She won "without" having a cut tail. She won on her own merits and training. A cut tail doesn't make the horse's performance have more merits, more talent, or better training.

Any judge who says if all else is equal, "I'd pick the one with the cut tail" is being fooled. They may be equal, but there are different work-off tests that can be utulized, and it is the judge's responsibility to use the workoff tests to decide between two close placing horses which one performed the best on that day and time.

If someone is for or against ..let's hear the actual reasons without name calling, comparing it to "gelding" ...all horse breeds have geldings, but not all cut tails.

So what are people's pros and cons? Saying the majority of show people will leave, I don't buy ... that is like a threat. It is not a pro or con to actually the subject at hand ... "tail cutting" with the facts.

[Mona Lisa]

I hope that they truly do ban tail alteration. We say this is a natural breed....well if we cut the tail it is not a natural breed. Cutting the tail is painful and bloody from what I understand. Currently it is taking place in the stalls of some shows, owners will fly in a tail expert to have their herd done etc..... I have seen some really bad tail jobs done, and these horses are winning at the national level. I remember seeing a horse that made the cut in fino stallions a few years back that had a dead tail, I don't believe he went on to place. No way can anyone compare gelding a horse to tail alteration, and if they do they are just grasping at straws and cannot come up with a true honest reason why its done. The only reason I can think of to alter a tail is for cosmetic reasons - which is not a good enough reason. Horses need proper use of their tails and if you take that away from them then you are truly doing them an injustice.

Mona

[LynnG]

Is it that they don't care or too stupid?

I've never seen anybody at my barn apply fly spray to their cut tailed horses.
They don't even take them out of the stall for months.

"don't care" would be my guess. what do you think?

[Brigitte]

And gelding isnt the topic of this tread. We can start a new one if you want. Read the past post.

You brought what I said on pasopedigree about gelding here.

[Pasofinoguy]

Ok i am sorry i shouldnt have brought that post from the same tread on pasopedigree.

[appyday]

My tail jobs are not permanent...But seasonal..(alcohol blocks) .I am assuming these jobs are permanent...

NOTE I have not done a tail job in years I have nothing now but if I was showing one heavily with a helicoper tail I would do it again..

[CarolU]

Shelley, the cut is a permanent cut of the ligament on the underside of the tail. The upper ligament then pulls the tail up in a J-shape. Many times it doesn't pull it straight up, but to the side and the horse has a tail that goes down straight and then 90 degrees or so sideways. Sometimes that side of the tail is then cut so the other ligament pulls harder, and sometimes they cut again and again and eventually 'kill' the tail. It's all illegal and done in barns by trainers.

In all honesty, if it were done by a vet with anesthesia in a sterile environment it would be no worse then docking tails and ears as is done with many dog breeds. The difference here is that the majority of members have VOTED and put in place several RULES that require the horse be shown naturally with NO ALTERATIONS allowed. Period. If you allow tails, then why not clean up a throat latch or enhance a jaw or crest, why not straighten the ears out?

For years everyone has claimed you can't prove it by looking at a tail...so you can't enforce it. The test the vet came up with, stimulating tail lifting, is very simple and easy to do. So now we know it is entirely enforcable. At the next meeting I can see it now...will we enforce it, and when?

[cowboy ed]

i read a story once about a horse trader who had a really nice mare for sale. the mare was bobtailed however, and that proved unattractive to most people. the trader made a false tail for the mare, and fastened it in place with some glue and rubber bands. it looked as good as a real tail.

he took the mare to an auction, where several interested buyers took the bidding up beyond the trader's expectations. however, being a trader and never quite satisfied, when he passed the reins over to the new owner, the trader calmly walked to the rear of the horse, took the false tail off and began to walk away.

the new owner was aghast! the little nubbin tail detracted seriously from the horse's appearance! he yelled at the trader, "what the heck do you think you're doing?" the trader replied,"you bought the horse, the tail is extra!" "robbery!" the new owner shouted! a crowd had gathered, and some of them began to point at the mare and chuckle. "quick!" said the new owner, how much for that tail?" the trader replied, "oh, another $100 oughta cover it, i think." "DONE!" said the new owner. "if i dont get it, i will never live this one down!"

:lol:

[Linda Y]

I hope that they truly do ban tail alteration. We say this is a natural breed....well if we cut the tail it is not a natural breed. Mona

Ha! This breed, I am most sorry to say, hasn't been natural for YEARS. When I first started showing, you could only cut the tiniest of bridle paths, and they didn't even allow shoes because they judged the GAIT...what a novel concept. Good lord, now it is pretty much anything goes to get that stupid satin ribbon and a little fame.
And the post about 'culture'. Give me a freaking break. This is the USA, people! What about OUR culture?
This subject makes me so angry. Let's let the HORSES vote to see if they want their flayswatters permanently disfigured. Bet THEY would vote no!

[pnalley]

I haven't read any of the responses on this board because thought I respect all of you this is a touchy matter/

I own one mare with a "done" tail. I bought her when she was 14 and it was a done deal. Luckily hers was not botched. She has full fly swatting capabilities.

That said I will NEVER alter a tail on any breed. But I'm also to the point that I will not buy a breed of dog that has had it's ears or tail done.

I would however rescue one if it was in need.

The rule could be made in a way that all foals born from 1/1/07 and after will be permanently disqualified from showing or breeding if they really want to seriously stop this). The owner and trainer should also face some sort of penalty.

The only way to get to people is to hit the wallet.

I have my doubts that any of this will come to pass.

[appyday]

BTW Cowboy Ed I make and sell tail extensions and do well with them...If you run a horse threw a sale (not a back yard but a GOOD sale) the tail HAS to go with the horse...I sell alot of tails to horses going to auction and they just want cheap as it has to go with the horse...as the bidder actually already bought it.. :lol:

[Privatetreaty]

I make and sell tail extensions and do well with them...


Yeah and they're good for OTHER things too.[/size] ;-)

[appyday]

I make and sell tail extensions and do well with them...


Yeah and they're good for OTHER things too.[/size] ;-)

Barbara likes me to spank her with it.. :-?

[GeorgeGuns]

Well, the vote is in, there WILL be enforcement, there IS a date to follow, and I'm not sure what more there is to say except GOOD JOB!

[Privatetreaty]

I make and sell tail extensions and do well with them...


Yeah and they're good for OTHER things too.[/size] ;-)

Barbara likes me to spank her with it.. :-?

OMG Barbara who :?: :?: :?:
this has got to be good

.

[appyday]

:oops: Barbwire

[Privatetreaty]

:oops: Barbwire

I'm sorry honey, exactly what have you and Barbwire been up to?
And you didn't even think of inviting me?
How rude.

You're just upset, because I forgot to recommend you as a Doctor to Adam the other day.
Well, I'm sorry.
Happy now?


.

[appyday]

PT I could tell you but...then...well nevermind :lol:

[Privatetreaty]

PT I could tell you but...then...well nevermind :lol:

Come here, come here and whisper it into my computer.
Go ahead, nobody's going to notice.

.

[Privatetreaty]

Well at least tell me this:
Are still upset at me because I forgot to recommend you as a Doctor to Adam?

.

[appyday]

Well at least tell me this:
Are still upset at me because I forgot to recommend you as a Doctor to Adam?

.

Naw I don't get upset easily...

[dana]

It's about time someone put their foot down to put a stop to the tail alterations. it should of been done MANY years ago.

dana