UPDATE more Pictures of tunneling in white line

[motorgypsy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/Feb12006017a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/Feb12006010a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/Feb12006004a.jpg

These are before I backed the toe up. Note her fairly steep angles. I've actually reduced the heel height from what she general maintains but not more than mayber 1/4 of an inch. Her mom will go lame if you lower heels too much so have to be careful on Arwen too.

Nothing has been done to frog or sole. All the white line is sound except the place where you see the holes.

I'll try to get more pictures of her reduced toe today.

[GeorgeGuns]

I know you said you got these before you backed her toe up.

1/4 inch of heel (I assume you mean above sole level?) may be too much for her - try to go to 1/8 inch and see how she does. That her mom likes heel doesn't mean that she does, and judging by the condition of the whiteline she does need to go lower. Hint: horses that don't tolerate lowered heels (to just a hair above live sole) usually have frogs that are not fully competant, or lack of heel structure internally. Her frog looks fabulous, and her heels are wide, nice straight bars.

The stretched whiteline at the toe tells me that she is using her toes too much which means her heels are indeed too tall (esp in that pic, would love to see after trim shots!). This forces the toe to wear, and up to a point it will grow to maintain but then the leverage will stretch that whiteline. That opens the door to infection. Not having full circulatory function of hte hoof as a whole makes it even more prone to bugs.

She looks like she has good concavity = full sole thickness and hardened off well, so you will have no trouble to invent by roling that toes right through the whiteline. This is necessary to eliminate the leverage forces that are pulling it apart and allowing that funk to continue.

Leave a good heel platform starting about 1/4 inch ahead of the seat of corn - where the bar meets the heel wall at the sole. Then if you are not comfy lowering her heels to just above sole level, you can use another trickwhich will encourage her to lower them herself to where her hoof wants them, its a variation on Pete Ramey's heel bevel: Draw a line accross where the bar meets the heel, and from there back bevel it down to where the top of the frog is. This gives a rounded landing area, but preserves the weightbearing area of the heel platform. Get pics, then you can compare in a month (I mean scrutinize) and see how she has worn in relation to how it ws trimmed - I bet she lowers them heels and leaves a hair of a roll. Actually, the middle picture looks like you got pretty close anyway, hard to tell, but the bottom one is blurry for me, as is the top one.

Don't be afraid to relieve the quarters a little bit either, this could be a huge help to her. IMO she is just outside the outer limits of what her hooves will tolerate before breaking down - those black holes are a red flag!

And yes that is the beginnings of KCs Black Hole that leads to the HKH thing I was talking about in the last thread on this. I'd be liberal with the Blue Kote (Dr Naylor's) and get all the leverage and breakover dealt with.

[motorgypsy]

No I don't think she has much heel at all above the sole. Certainly not 1/4 of an inch.

Thanks for all the advice! Yes - They are blurry. Don't ask me why. It was not dark at all. Lousy lens.

It's funny - the two heels look different lengths but if you measure them they are the same. The last picture is before filing or anything. The second is after filing enough to see the white line. The the first is to show she has failrly steep angles. I've now taken her toe waaay back. Her mom's front feet are different - more heel on one naturally. Arwen had the most gorgeous feet you've ever seen til she foundered the two front while we were out of town and the abscesses but she's just about gotten the white line back to solid with no cracks. I do keep taking a bit off the heel every couple of days. I'll post her left front so yo can see the difference. She foudered in both, got an abscess in both but the right has been a bigger problem for some reason. A few months ago her white line was twice that wide and had a lot of cracks so she is improving but it's really a pain!!! For us both!

[GeorgeGuns]

Gosh, given that history, I'd say you are making great progress with her! She will indeed have two different feet - one hoof is almost always a little worse than the other when they founder hard. I like to think of them as not different but one is ahead of the other in the healing process, and should eventually catch up.

[TrueStepPaso]

As long as you keep the toe & quarters tight against the toe callous/sole ridge until the new/attached growth reaches "active" ground level status, then she'll do fine. That hoof wall isn't supporting her anyway....get rid of it asap ;-)
If she typically needs more heel, then now is the time to give it to her for extra support......if she has an under-developed digital cushion, then she'd be a hurtin' pup without extra heel right now.

[motorgypsy]

I took it way back. Got pictures but gotta get them onto photobucket. The left has a little bit of damaged area but it should come off on the next trim in a week or so.

[Terry Wallace]

Looks like seedy toe to me...way too much seperation (stretch)of white line.
Very "road fonder" looking. I would work to restore the white line, blunt the toe (roll it) Watch this weekly...and rasp it weekly. Are there any fever lines on the outside of the wall? Any definitive lines on the wall, as to how many months ago this may have started? Its going to take time to fix it....proabably at leat six months at a rate of about 3/8" per month. Do not keep her any place that is wet...she needs absolutely DRY footing.
How is the other front hoof? Strange if you have this in one front hoof only...was she injured on that leg? Kicked? Coronary band puncture or anything you recall? Any swelling from fetlock down say about 3-4 months ago?

I suspect "mechanical" injury....

[motorgypsy]

No injury but they were switched to a different pasture with a lot of clover. No "fever lines" on that hoof but there is one on the other one about where they were switched. I have pictures of the other hoof but haven't gotten them on phototbucket yet. She's the daughter of the boss mare and noone messes with her at all. She's very self assured and huge and all she has to do is look and they move off. She foundered a year and half ago but no lameness. Abscessed in both feet - lame for about five days. Abscesses grew out. Has been sound since then. White line was very stretched in the one hoof and has gone back to more normal but not all the way as you can see. XRays say no foreign bodies in hoof. Minimal rotation. She comes from a family that will founder and go lame if the heels are taken too low but we've not had the mom or sister founder. I have taken the toe back but no way to keep her dry since we had deluges of rain for over a week. She's not in mud or anything though. I just keep it loaded with thrushbuster and that toe is filed way back now. I'll try to get the pictures on tonight of the toe now.

[Terry Wallace]

O.K...I missed the post where she had been foundered...but it sure does look like founder. That IS seedy toe then, and it will be soft and easily decompose into holes and deterioration ... have you consdered boots to help protect it? I would fear that an infection will ensue from tiny rocks or (?) being able to readily penetrate the seedy toe, and make its way up into the hoof...much like being "gravelled"...

Yes...that is going to take some time to "get fixed"...what a pity...such a young horse to have already been foundered.

I saw your post on Barb's about rocky trails.... I would GUARANTEE you that hoof would chip off all over...if ridden here in the rocky mountains...

Me thinks that many folks have no idea just how rocky the "rockies" are...not to mention they are decomposed GRANITE.... one of the most destructive footings there is...

When we have organized trail rides...we always post if most will need shoes. I've seen many a so-called perfect footed Paso pull up lame on a ride here...and CHIPS.... so many chipped feet....

[GeorgeGuns]

Ya know, I would love to be able to do a real comparison between "normal" hooves and those that really do require a more upright hoof. A young horse that has grown up on good footing, had good hoof care etc, ya'd think that they'd be fine with "normal" heels, but its not so all the time. I have one here that is useless unless I leave a little more heel than "normal", then she is unstoppable.

To be picky: lowering heels will not truly founder a horse, not all by itself. what it can do though, is aggrevate shoddy navicular bones, put a horse closer to ground parellel than what its conformation calls for which would also promote P2 subluxation which can progress to high ringbone, etc. Sore, yes, true founder no.

MGs - how much rotation? Up to 3 degrees deviation from ground parellel is quite normal, and I'd suspect that our high heel lovers might even go 4 degrees. If your vet is measuring deviation from the toe wall, but in essence you are within parameters for ground parellel then she is basically measuring what's left of a laminar wedge - the wedge of dead stuff that is the old stretched nasty whiteline - and I wouldn't really call it "rotation" at that point. If she is more than 3 - 4 degrees from ground parellel, then yeah, keep those heels as low as she will tolerate!

[motorgypsy]

Terry our idea of rock is a foot of fresh sharp granite large gravel laid over a logging road. They sink into it up to the fetlocks. The other rock we have is solid boulders covering much of the trail. We do have a lot of rock around here since we're in the mountains.

[motorgypsy]

First two pictures are the left front. Notice how much thinner the white line is and although there is a tiny spot dead center it really looks good considering the founder and abscess. The light area on the right is sunlight by the way. The white line is not stretched there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/IMG_1336a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/IMG_1334a.jpg

This is right foot before I backed up the toe. Notice what a big difference there is between right front and left front.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/Feb12006010a.jpg
These two are of the right front where I've backed the toe as far as I can without causing her pain. The purple is the thrushbuster which is formalin, gentian violet, iodine and something else. And yes she got it everywhere!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/IMG_1324a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/IMG_1321a.jpg

[motorgypsy]

By the way - sorry for the dirt. I had it totally clean and she decided to step down into the mud and it's hot as hades so I took the picture anyway.

[Terry Wallace]

According to the "fever" rings on the outside of her hoof...its gonna be a while before that hoof is "fixed". Those are a great example of fever/founder lines. I'd say six months at least...BUT....I'll bet it turns out o.k...in time.

[motorgypsy]

She gets very little grain but that's when they were moved to the pasture with the clover. She's totally sound now but I just keep at the weak spots. Isn't it strange the difference in the two fronts.