Horse aweful for farrier

[SarahR]

I have a horse that has been getting progressively worse and worse for the farrier. Especially her front feet. We've been giving her a biotin supplement for two months in the hopes that eventually her feet won't be so sensitive. We are starting to think that she needs to be tranquilized for shoeing.

My husband thinks she is just a brat, but my friend (farrier's wife) and I think it hurts when her hooves are hammered on. Has anyone else experience this, and what can be done? She's fine after being shod, no lameness. Could these problems be associated with back problems? I've never found a saddle that fits her right, only 'acceptably'. I don't beleive in chiropractors, but maybe it's worth a try?

[cowboy ed]

could be a combination of things, including the brat part! it is hard to say, without seeing how the horse acts, how she is handled, etc.

[Carol Nelson]

Sarah, haul this horse into the vet and have her front feet x-rayed. She may be foundered.
We treated and treated my gelding when he was kicked in the hip by a mare...but he never seemed to improve. One morning when he couldn't even get up off the ground, I called my vet in a panic. She had me walk him around in front of her and suddenly called out, "Have we x-rayed his feet???"
She got her little x-ray machine out and by mid afternoon we had our diagnosis, he was rotated three degrees in his front right hoof, but he had foundered all the way around.
We never knew...he was so stoic, he never flinched through the pincher test...never limped, never showed any lameness except what we thought was from the kick.
Good news is...he is 21 years old today, and completely sound but we keep front shoes on him, and of course, he is on dry lot and I weigh every bit of food that goes into him. He is my demo horse, and you would never know he is 21.

[SarahR]

I did have her checked (not x-rayed) last year...hoof testers, lameness exam, etc. The vet said she was fine and just had our farrier's number. I'll think about the xrays.....her hooves look fine, no founder rings. She has always been extremely 'wussy' and can't go on our dirt road barefoot. She has fairly shallow and small hooves (size 0).

[CarolU]

Well size 0 is a pretty decent hoof for a Paso, most of mine are 00 and even one 000.

If she is fine for hoof cleaning, I'd rule out the 'brat' part. I think Carol has a very good suggestion about the x-rays there.

[Terry Wallace]

If you have no toe separation at the white line....I would not do the x-rays. If this has been going on, and getting progressively worse with each farrier visit, and IS founder... you would have white line separation (seedy toe) readily seen at the toe, by swiping a rasp across a couple times to get a "fresh" look. The x-rays will just cost you money and confirm you don't have founder.

You say you don't believe in chiroprators. I sure do...in fact, our chiroprator here is also a certified equine chiropractor. You may want to give it a try...but I don't know if it will be a chiropractic problem.

You may want to secure a dose of ace from your vet, so you can try it once tranquilized...just so you can get the job done if need be. If she is very tender about having her feet hammered on (and I HAVE had horses that were)..then consider foam inserts and easy boots for a while so she can grow some more sole if need be.

Is your farrier cutting out her soles? Would you have a photo of a freshly trimmed hoof when she is acting so "sore"? Does she wear shoes regularly? How many nails does your farrier use? Does he leave the rear-most holes of the shoes empty? Does he use more than 6 nails on those "0" feet?

Do you see any discoloration of the sole? Any obvious bruising? Do the rear of the bars of her foot, show any discoloration? Are they folded (turned under in the corners) ? cracked?

It could of course be strictly her acting up because of her apprehension of being hammered on. If that is so....then the feet will need rest & relief before she will ever accept being hammered on without being afraid of pain. What has the farrier's wife observed that she felt it was pain? Does the mare swish her tail, back her ears, roll her eyes? ...when front feet are picked up? Does she attempt to go up, go down on that leg or?

[SarahR]

Terry,

The farrier never said anything about any abnormalities at all. She had a touch of trush two years ago. She just acts like having her feet hammered on kills her. I'm going to ask him (the farrier) more questions tonight when I go riding with them.

I don't personally beleive in chiropractors, but am still willing to try it and give it the benefit of the doubt. I could have my mind changed :)

We had another Paso that was horrible about having his rear feet shod, we had him tranquilized once and after that he was fine with having it done, no more tranquilizers.

He uses three nails per side, I'll take a look this afternoon and see what hole he leaves. She wears shoes from May through early November.

I have noticed that she has area of pink on the outsides of her hooves (on her white legs), typically above the nails and towards the rear 1/2 of the hooves. I was told not to worry about that.

Her behavior when being shod on the front hooves (and even having old shoes pulled), is to spread her hind legs, hunch her back, bite, pin her ears, roll her eyes, try to pull her leg away, and then rear. No tail swishing, and no attempt to lie down or act uncomfortable when the hoof is just being held/picked out. She has never been lame, no limping or anything even when being ridden over lots of rocks (as long as she has shoes). She can't bear to go on anything but soft dirt if being ridden barefoot (I almost never do that).

[Terry Wallace]

To tranquilize her once...as you have tried on another horse before....may work on her, but your description of what she does, hunches her back, bites, etc....does indeed point to pain I would say.

Does she have thin walls?...to where pulling shoes would hurt? Hammering on thin walls can hurt. Does she ever lose shoes, like break off part of her hoof when losing a shoe? Do her feet chip easy when not shod? is she on anything special..farrier's formula, biotin supplements, etc?

This redness above the nails/on side of hoof (does she have a white foot where you can see the blood vessels? thats normal)... is this a redness that looks like a redish shadow inside the hoof wall? That is likely a normal situation, one you could see also on an unshod foot, and proabably nothing to woorry about UNLESS it is bruising....and if it is bruising...you would see this evidenced on the bottom of the hoof as well...where the redness would be in the wall...you would see "blood tracking" on the sole, possibly also in the white line...it would be red or brownish like dried blood.

I have photos of things like this if you are not sure... the blood-tracking often looks like little lines of "dots" when rasped to a "clean sole" so you can see it. This is what bruising from gravel or rocks can do. It does the damage, it bleeds a little, then dries, and since it is basically trapped in the sole or wall..it sort of looks like dots or streaks on the sole as it grows out.

[SarahR]

Does she have thin walls?...to where pulling shoes would hurt? Hammering on thin walls can hurt. Does she ever lose shoes, like break off part of her hoof when losing a shoe? Do her feet chip easy when not shod? is she on anything special..farrier's formula, biotin supplements, etc?



I will ask my farrier, but I don't think they are overly thin, perhaps a touch. She never looses shoes (not once since I've owned her) and her hooves never chip. We just put her on a biotin supplement two months ago.

[Cindy]

Definitely sounds like she is in pain. Horses that have just had a bad experience with the farrier will do things to get away like they are afraid but it sounds as if she is being more aggressive than that. Especially with the biting. Horses tend to bite when they are in pain but not if they are just afraid of the farrier.

Also, there are probably only a handful of Paso Finos that would be a size O. Most of mine wear a OOO and some a OO. If he is leaving too much hoof, she may be getting abcesses that could cause pain during nailing. Can you post a picture?

And, by the way, very thorough and good info, Terry.

[GeorgeGuns]

Some horses just don't like it, and are afraid of it. I hvae en extreme case here - the one and only pair of shoes that Lucero ever had (which incedentally mde her WLD worse) traumatized her so badly she colicked right after removing them, and I can't get near here even with nippers, I have to use a rasp only on her. The farrier was kind, she stood for it, and shook like a willow in a windstorm the whole time, misbehavior is just not up her alley, but now she refuses to even pick a hoof up if I have the nippers even in the room!

as far as pain goes, if she isn't lame after the shoes go on, she shouldn't be having a pain issue at all - if they hurt going on, they will hurt more with use, yeah? The sensation of having a nail put in may well be freaking her out, or it could be the noise. Try clicker training? (I haven't done clicker with Lu cuz she is 4x Eblis, why bother? ya have to give her a dissertation in 3 languages to win her over on anything)

[Cindy]

as far as pain goes, if she isn't lame after the shoes go on, she shouldn't be having a pain issue at all - if they hurt going on, they will hurt more with use, yeah?

That is not true. I have had horses that have worn their hooves down so much that they are tender and had to put shoes on them. The nailing is so painful for these horses that I have tranqued them to put the shoes on. It would have been inhumane to NOT tranqu them. The next day with the shoes there is no pain and the horse is no longer tender. The only reason they would be in pain after the shoes went on is if the shoes were not put on correctly or if there was a bad nail. The REASON for the shoe is to relieve the tender hoof and that is exactly what it does if properly installed.

[motorgypsy]

Kind of like piercing your ears or nose or navel HUH???? Quits hurting after it's done - if your'e lucky!

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

One alternative - put boots on her for riding and let her feet grow out a bit before the next set of shoes and see if she's still difficult. But some of them - if they have EVER had ANY pain associated with shoeing - quicked with one nail for example - will be difficult. It took months to get Arwen to give me her foot after the vet used hoof testers on her and it hurt when she had an abscess. Luckily it blew in a couple of days and she was pain free and easy to treat but boy - they do remember pain.

[SarahR]

Her hooves have been growing out really fast since we put her biotin. What difference does it make letting her wear boots vs shoes as far as the hoof growing out? I ask because I don't know.....

She's never been quicked as far as I know, certainly not since I've had her. The woman I bought her from said she was her farrier's favorite horse to do. When I bought her she had just had fresh shoes put on, but it began snowing (winter set in!) so we had our farrier pull them (2-3 weeks after we bought her). She tried pulling her feet away then, just a little, but she's gotten worse about it each time.

Maybe boots are the way to go with her....my husband uses them on his TWH (old Macs). I just don't like the idea of more stuff to do to get ready to go riding.

What about those glue on shoes? Anyone use those? Will they stand up to rough and rocky trails?

[Terry Wallace]

I have had the same thing...tender to shoe. I think the boot idea is a real good one.....just remember that the hoof needs to be properly trimmed for the boot to fit correctly.

One other thing, that I have had really good luck with on sore-soled horses is a product called superhoof. It is a pour-on, treatment which toughens the sole by pushing back the blood vessels close to the bottom surface of the sole. It is an irritant in reality...but it sure works well... it would be very easy to pour it on, boot the feet when you ride (ONLY when you ride...IF her "stand around place" is relatively soft). I know you are in "Granite" Durango area....so if she is constantly standing on decomposed granite... I'd put some foam inserts in my easy boots and BOOT her.

Would you like to try a set of "0" easy boots for a couple weeks? I have some used ones I could sure loan you to try....I could get you a bottle of SuperHoof from the Pikes peak animal Supply, and probably some foam you could cut to fit. You could try this, and see if it helps her. I would need you to measure her across her hoof...so if you want to try them...PM me and I'll explain how to measure for easyboots. I have their chart here....

Do ask your farrier though, if he sees bruising, thin walls, concavity to the walls, (as viewed from the sides) If you can get us some pics...please do.

One last thing...do look her legs over for any tendon sheath swellings, and unusual bumps (like a splint) on the sides of her legs, or bumps over the pastern/hoof joint area (osletes) These too, could cause her to jerk her foot away or want to, when hammered upon. Need to eliminate this to be sure it is a 100% hoof issue.

[motorgypsy]

At some point in time she may have just had too much sole removed and be tenderfooted or been quicked. She shouldn't mind boots if that is the case. A month or so with the boots, the sole has grown back in and hopefully if you tranq her too she'll see that it no longer hurts to have shoes put on.

[Linda Y]

Could it be possible that the farrier is either holding her leg too high, or pulling it out too far to the side as he works on her?
Also, not having rings isn't an indication of whether or not she has foundered. Cita foundered the first time and I never knew. She was never lame and never developed rings. She was just ouchy on rocks.

[SarahR]

These are all insiteful and helpful suggestions, thank you everyone! Terry, both you and CarolU have showered me with kindness in your offers to let me borrow things :) I do have a pair of Easyboots for her though, I generally use them in the spring before she is shod the first time. I will ask my farrier all these questions, we just switched to him this season since our other farrier had messed up her hooves (my fault, I always blabbed her head off when here, it was a wonder she could concentrate at all).

[SarahR]

Could it be possible that the farrier is either holding her leg too high, or pulling it out too far to the side as he works on her?
Also, not having rings isn't an indication of whether or not she has foundered. Cita foundered the first time and I never knew. She was never lame and never developed rings. She was just ouchy on rocks.


Yes, that is possible, she is a small horse (compared to most horses around here).

Now that you mention it, I had a gelding that foundered and never had rings. He was ouchy on rocks, but eventually a bunch of bad sole came to the surface (it looked like several stone bruises). Our farrier parred them out, he was in pain for the rest of the day, but after that his hooves looked great and he was fine. Wouldn't that be the case with Jypsi? That the farrier would have seen something obvious by now? Or not?

[motorgypsy]

Really good point about holding the leg too high. Chinook hated that and would always fight the farrier unless he lowered it. When I trim them I keep the foot very low to the ground and release it if they ask for the foot - but they have to give it right back to me. Little by little they tolerate longer times off the ground.