Strasser technique??? [Archive] - American Paso Finos.com Forums

ASB.Immortality

08-03-2006, 03:41 AM

What in the world is that? It sounds like something nasty. Can someone explain it to me in english? :D

http://www.ilph.org/ukoperations_details.asp?id=652

Woman using Strasser technique found guilty of cruelty

The International League for Protection of Horses is “pleased” that Mrs Jo Kowalski of Astrea Main Road, Baylham, Ipswich, Suffolk was found guilty of causing suffering to her pony Brambles at Ipswich Magistrates Court. She will be sentenced on Wednesday, 30th August.

This is the second time in recent months that someone using the Strasser technique has been successfully prosecuted.

Mrs Kowalski caused this pony to suffer by allowing many months to go past when the pony was in severe and obvious pain.
"Mutilated" Mrs Kowalski, who was a qualified Strasser Hoof Care Technician, failed to accept that the Strasser technique was unable to treat the ponies problem. Laminitis is a painful condition of the foot and can result in severe lamness.

Following a call to the ILPH welfare hotline 0870 871 1927 ILPH Field Officer Jacko Jackson found the pony, Brambles at Mrs Kowalski’s fields. He said: “I couldn’t believe it when I watched the pony trying to walk with the crossed legged stance. It needed a vet there and then.”

Tony Tyler Head of UK Operations commented: “This was the most “in pain” horse to have entered our centre and a guilty verdict is to be commended. We hope that this will send out the message to the equine world that this particular method used by Mrs Kowalski is not to be recommended.”

ILPH Farrier John Blake who treated Brambles on arrival said: “Brambles was possibly the lamest animal I have seen in 26 years as a farrier. Mutilated is the best way to describe her." You can view an interview with John Blake which includes footage of Brambles arriving at the ILPH in the ILPH Media Centre.

Despite the excellent care that Brambles received, the damage caused was so severe and the pony was in such obvious pain, it was decided by all concerned, including Jo Kowalski, some months later that she should be put down as this was the kindest option.

This is the second time the Strasser technique has been shown to cause suffering in a court of law. Both charities the ILPH and the RSPCA hope that people will treat this method with caution.

Edited to add:
Oh nevermind. I just found saying that it is some of that barefoot/natural trim stuff. It didn't give any specifics but just a general ad. I still don't see how it can work on every single horse as some people claim.

Brigitte

08-03-2006, 03:49 AM

http://americanpasofinos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4040&highlight=strasser+technique You can read that too

ASB.Immortality

08-03-2006, 03:53 AM

Ok, I know people on here are into the natural trim/barefoot thing. Maybe someone here can explain it. I, honestly, just do not understand.

Here is the website I have gotten my info from:
http://www.strasserhoofcare.co.nz/

This just sounds bad to me:

"In cases where there does exist damaged tissue, more metabolism (i.e., inflammation) is necessary for healing."

"It is important to understand that damage can exist in the horse's hooves that goes undetected. It is possible that the suspension of the coffin bone is compromised or even completely lost in an outwardly appearing healthy hoof. Restoring hoof mechanism, therefore circulation and nerve function, will reveal this damage. The horse will present lame."

It just seems to me, that unless nothing is working with your farrier then you might try something like this but I can't say I would just go out & jump to do it. It sounds like it is meant to make your horse hurt.

ASB.Immortality

08-03-2006, 03:57 AM

http://americanpasofinos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4040&highlight=strasser+technique You can read that too

OH GOD!!! That poor horse! I am curious what kind of muscle or how much dope it took to make the poor guy stand there.

Brigitte

08-03-2006, 04:01 AM

I'm sure Coreen and Hacienda del Sol can explain it and answer any questions. TrueStep too

Hacienda Del Sol

08-03-2006, 04:21 AM

I won't comment on this until I get my other question answered......

Jaci

08-03-2006, 08:34 AM

What question was the Jamie? I must have missed a couple of posts.

Jaci

Mellifluous

08-03-2006, 11:11 AM

OK- from what I understand, the barefoot movement that has been sweeping the nation is different from the Strasser method. I think the Strasser method was the starting point and then some other hoof people decided that it is too extreme and have started using mustang feet as their model for barefoot horses. I think in the end, most american barefoot guru's goal is to make domesticated horse's feet as much like mustang feet as possible. The goal being a horse with "rock crushing" hooves that can withstand conditions that require horses that are not "barefoot" or "properly barefoot" to need hoof protection.

Did I get it right?

GeorgeGuns

08-03-2006, 02:07 PM

the Strasser technique is an invasive style of trimming that does indeed cause problems. Hershy, the horse I posted pics about in that thread did need a lot of support to stand for trimming for the first several trims which consisted of backing his breakover uo, leaving his heels totally alone until he had a good 1/4 inch above live sole, and being persistant about aiming towards lateral balance. He is doing pretty well these days, can be ridden lightly in boots and sole pads, and he sure turned out to be one heck of a gaited TW, has all the moves.

Strasser's trim style is based on her dissertation that all hooves must conform to specific measurements, something like a 45 degree toe angle, 30 degree hairline angle, 2.5 cm heel height, or some such numbers. She promotes the idea that abcessing is a good thing and that horses detoxify their bodies by abcessing - this is pure bunk and it upsets me that a vet would even think of this. Abcesses are caused by either inffection, or by dead tissue that needs to get out. She wupports this by saying that the same toxins found in abcessing hooves are in the rest of hte body - well sure they are, its all the same blood supply!!! She is condusing detoxifying with a low level septicemia (low level meaning the horse is dealing with it and probably no symptoms)

What Strasser did give us is very good information on how a "natural" horse lives, the lifestyle, and how they adapt. After that though it tends to fall apart.

There have been numerous suits brought against Streasser trimmers in the US due to incapaciation of horses and even some deaths do to complications directly related to this method.

As I recently mentioned in a recent thread - Rock crushing is NOT the goal of natural hoofcare, healthy hooves and healthy horses is the goal. Each hoof literally acts like an extra heart, the effect on circulation is significant and can impact overall health. Rockcrushing is only the icing on the cake. The subgoal of NHC is to fill in for the horse where domestication robs the natural process: natural diet, companionship, lots of movement, trimming when the horse isn't wearing enough (yes this happens a lot - hooves DO grow to meet need), boots with various pads to promote stimulation to particular hoof parts, rider position even influences hooves. Even letting a horse eat and drink from the ground instead of from hung buckets and haynets is thought to have some effect. The trim is just a trim, but natural hoofcare looks at the whole horse.

A webstie that has very detailed information is www.barefoothorse.com

I know its confusing. Gene Ovnicek started with teh "fourpoint trim" which he has modified into his 'natural balance trim' which is very effective for certain navicular cases and extreme founders. Pete Ramey has a slightly different style, based on Jaime Jacksons wild horse model trim but with a few tweaks that seem aggressive to many trimmers (but OMG they work!) and a lot of this is taken from Gene's work and his own experience. KC LaPierre takes a totaly different approach at first, but ends up with the same good trim on a horse. NONE of these main "gurus" try to force a horse into a specific parameter but emphasize using the healthy model as a goal and utilizing all the failsafe lanmarks that Ma Nature put there to let us know where things are on the inside so we don't invade live tissue - which includes sole callous. Just like with NH training methods, each has its particular main focus, but they are all right and when all are corellated to what the hoof in your hand looks like, you are on the road to getting a good job done.

I don't promote certain websites merely out of favoritism or bias or opinion. I have spent a lot of years studying this, not just reading books and looking at videos but diving headlong into the research that has been done and written up. If I had not strted out as a nurse, I might not have been able to week through it all and pick out the sound information. I always point people to Marjorie's site because she has corellated this so well into a very intellegently formatted website.

I had a funny moment the other day when a person emailed me to see if I could do her horse - she was too far away. She got my name from a list on a site that is primarily a Strasser site, but the trimmrs list is not limited to Strasser trimmers, in fact the majority are not. I haven't heard from her since I let her know i am not a strasser trimmer - I hope her horse is okay.

Jaci

08-03-2006, 08:14 PM

Shouldn't each horse and each hoof be looked at seperately?

The wild horse theory is good in theory but not in true fact. Bands of wild horses formed from a specific gene pool. The horses that couldn't adapt to the terrain or the food died off and therefor didn't breed. So the herd through natural selection became genetically strong for its enviorment. The feet that worked for that enviorment and that band of wild horses became the norm.

That doesn't mean that triming a horse to those specific wild horse hoof measurments is correct for every horse it just means that they are correct for the ones that have survived.

If you were to pull shoes on all of our horses and trim them all the same way and turn them out on a range for 2 or 3 years and then go back, you would find that some of them would be lame, dead or both.

You can't have a one size fits all way of triming or shoeing... It is illogical thinking to me.

Jaci

Cindy

08-03-2006, 08:20 PM

Not only that, Jaci, but if you took those same survival of the fittest horses from the dry, rocky ground and put them in a wetter climate with lush, green grass, they would not have the same great hooves and a different group would be the survivors. By the way, are you the same Jaci that I used to know in Arizona?

ASB.Immortality

08-03-2006, 09:50 PM

I won't comment on this until I get my other question answered......

I have no idea what the question was so I can't even hazard a guess. :D

All of this is just strange to me. I have always had horses that either had great feet with shoes on and if you took them off and tried to let them run without, you had problems. Or a horse that went barefoot & never had shoes on.

Our show horses wear their shoes through show season but when we are done, we pull their shoes. My old horse runs barefoot when we aren't in riding season.

I guess, in other words, if it wasn't broken I wasn't trying to fix it. Maybe if I were having problems I might try some the trims that have been talked about but I just stick with what I know has worked for me.

motorgypsy

08-04-2006, 01:06 AM

I'm going to start a new thread on when a horse is fine barefoot and when the horse needs shoes and under what circumstances they can go barefoot after having shoes but both of us being science types and Kyle was an army medic, we tend to be very pragmatic about things.

First of all feed good food with all the right supplements - biotin etc. - but not too much and don't feed really high calories hay in large qualtities. Mix grass hay is fine and mixed pasture but just keep an eye on their weight. Now we're assuming everyone does this.

If a horse is ridden regularly on rocks, sand, asphalt, hard clay, hills, roots, in bog, across water and so on and by regularly I'd say three times a week minimum for 30 minutes minimum at a good speed in addition to being on a fairly large mixed pasture with hills and trees and clay and sand and so on, and has good feet and is comfortable barefoot - that horse doesn't need shoes. Just a check and a trim when needed or if needed.

If on the other hand the horse sits in a sand paddock and once a month you go on a trail ride with rocks and hills and it's very obvious that the horse is uncomfortable. Shoes or boots are needed.

It's pretty simple.

Strasser is one of those people who caused other people to rethink things that they always took for granted about horses feet. That is a good thing. But her techniques can be totally barbaric and cruel.

Natural trimming as far as we are concerned is an attempt to produce a balanced hoof for the conformation of the horse that enables the horse to move the way it should in comfort and efficiently without pain. If you watch a foal from birth and the foal has a lot of running room and varied terrain, that foal will have beautiful feet. We look at those feet and try to maintain them as the horse gets older and perhaps doesn't run around as much and gets too long a toe or too much heel and so on. So natural meaning as nature intended the hoof the be if the horse gets plenty of exercise in varied terrain is our thought.

TrueStepPaso

08-04-2006, 02:34 PM

Okay, first off barefoot trimming is not a "new" thing, just like "natural horsemanship" isn't. Strasser got a hold of Jaime Jackson's 1st book in the late 80's (??), and started experimenting on horses in Germany...BUT, with her own "tweaking". She made her own trim. She was the first (and a vet) to offer a training process to learn how to trim a horse "naturally"...except she gave specific (degrees) angles to abide by. Well, guess what...that didn't work for alot of horses.

Now, her book regarding horse management (diet, turnout, etc..) is excellent, but the trimming is not for me or any of my horses. Her trimming style is HIGHLY invasive, and highly unneccesary.

Again, barefoot "gurus" (or whatever ppl want to call them :roll: ) DO NOT JUST FOCUS ON MUSTANG HOOVES....they study horses in Africa (dry climate), New Zealand (wet climate), Ireland (wet climate), Mongolia (mixed climate), France (VERY wet climate), and Australia - "Brumbies" (dry climate). I don't know why some ppl here insist on knowing about the barefoot info when all they can complain about is how ONLY the mustangs are studied :roll: . I must just post here for my health. Also, horses are not kept barefoot with only "rock-crushing" goals in mind...its for the health of the entire horse. Rock crushing is just an added bonus. Barefoot is an option, and it is a lifestyle.

Shouldn't each horse and each hoof be looked at seperately?

Absolutely. And I don't know how many times that has been stated here before by both farriers and trimmers. That is just good common sense....
Also, ALL horses are exactly the same physiologically {except Barb's that have 1-2 less rib(s) *only 5 lumbar vertebrae*}. Humans keep domestic horses sheltered from possible "natural selection", so domestic horses will continue to be "genetically flawed". The horses out west (for example) that continue to thrive are, as you say, genetically superior. Well then, what a perfect role model for our domestic horse's hooves...wouldn't you say? Take that, and your own horse's natural & needed angles, and combine the two......and there is your "natural" trim. What's wrong with that?

GeorgeGuns

08-04-2006, 08:47 PM

That doesn't mean that triming a horse to those specific wild horse hoof measurments is correct for every horse it just means that they are correct for the ones that have survived.

This looked like it was in context of natural timming (not strasser) so I'd like to clarify that there are NO specific measurements that we follow, we use the natural healthy hoof as a model, not an absolute. There is a wide range of different hoof measurements that are considered normal and healthy - for the infividual hoof. What wild horse study has done for us is provide expamples of healhty surviving hooves that we can compare the domestic hoof too. Given that information, we have been able to correllate not only what is ideal for a domestic, but what further variations may be considered normal for a domestic. Take heel contraction for instance: not all horses require a heel width of, say, 2.5 inches, but we do know from healthy hooves what an uncontracted heel looks like and how the parts should relate to each other. We don't draw absolute mesurements from this, we use well researched guidelines. There just aren't any "specific wild horse measurements", but there is a good range of what is healthy to compare to.

If you were to pull shoes on all of our horses and trim them all the same way and turn them out on a range for 2 or 3 years and then go back, you would find that some of them would be lame, dead or both.
This is a good example of one of the misconceptions about natural trim hoof care. No trimmer worth their salt would pull shoes and turn a horse right out on rough range, that is incredibly cruel. Pulling shoes off a dressage horse or wesptern pleasure horse that only works in an arena and turning them out in their usual paddock can be equally as cruel. One more time: the goal is not rock crushing, the goal is hoof/horse health and soundness. Tolerating rough going is only icing on the cake.

Yes each hoof needs to be looked at individually, BUT from all the good research and field disasters we can pretty easily say that NO horse even deserves a strasser style of trim. I recently left a job because a client was insisting I do a strasser trim on her horse and called me unprofessional for not wanting to do what a strasser fan vet ordered. Call me biased but I'll learn to shoe before I mutilate a hoof like that.

motorgypsy

08-04-2006, 10:22 PM

A really interesting point about the different gene pools of feral horses. We have a Florida Cracker horse and his hooves are truly amazing. Not only hard as epoxy but HUGE for his size. His is a nice muscular 15 or so hands and his feet are much larger than the QH's we board with who are at least a hand taller. I would guess these feet have evolved in the sloughs of Florida because of the soggy terrain. Supposedly they are immune to thrush and several mosquito borne diseases also. We do innoculate him anyway but the lit says they are immune. Amazing horses extremely closely related to the paso fino (yes they are gaited).

Edurne

08-04-2006, 10:26 PM

can you post a picture Motorgypsy..... I have never seen a cracker horse. Thanks.

ASB.Immortality

08-05-2006, 04:10 AM

Here is the website for them:

http://fcha.flahorse.com/

I have never seen one in person but they do look interesting. :)

Jaci

08-05-2006, 05:47 AM

I guess that I am really not following what you are trying to say here... Can you explain to me how a natural 55* angle differs from what I am hearing you say as not a natural 55* angle???

Jaci

Jaci

08-05-2006, 05:57 AM

I think that in many ways you guys are saying the same thing... it is just that you are using popular termminology.

A balanced foot is a balance foot is a balanced foot...

Jaci

Jaci

08-05-2006, 06:16 AM

Do you know what wild horses were used in the study or studies? I ask only because I grew up in Vegas and as you may or may not know we had a lot of wild horses there.

I grew up with friends that mustanged for pleasure horses. I also worked with the junior humane society to have laws put into place governing how the meat mustangers were allowed to count and transported the mustangs that they captured. These horses were sent by rail or truck to LA for slaughter. The mustangers would get so much per ear so they would cut the ears off the horses when they were caught and then deliver the ears to the buyers who would pay them.

You might want to watch the movie the Misfits...

There were thousands of horses taken out of Nevada and as the herds became smaller many of the ranchers ranch horses were stolen from their pastures by wild the horses. On of the reasons that the ranchers were so angry with Wild horse Annie was that she was successful in getting legislation that wouldn't allow a rancher to go into a band of wild horses and reclaim their ranch horses. The people that wanted the broomtails to stay pure were mad because the ranch horses were running with the wild ones. ( I am not sure about what they can do today but back then it was a mess)
It was pretty funny to see branded mares in a heard of wild horses.

The bottom line is that if you are studying those wild horses then you are studying the off spring of a lot of quarter horse bred ranch stock and not native mustangs.

Jaci

Jaci

08-05-2006, 06:22 AM

I have never seen one in person but have read about them. I think it would be interesing to do a blood trail and see if they aren't just a bunch of Paso Finos that got loose and started breeding...

How is their tempermant? Is it like a Paso Finos?

I love how they got their name...

Jaci

motorgypsy

08-05-2006, 10:39 AM

This is our Florida Cracker horse. He is a gelding and is not as well gaited as the ones they don't geld but he is gaited and gorgeous.

We visited a herd of several hundred registered Florida Cracker horses in Florida and the owner rode one of his favorites for us showing us his "corto and largo". Because other breeds also escaped and bred with them not all of them are as well gaited as paso finos but the one we saw ridden was fabulous and had great gait. The differences between the Cracker and the paso fino are more temperment and feet as well as the ability to survive on anything that grows. Crackers have always been cow horses so they are still bred for cow sense. They are thinking horses. When SloughP got tangled in a huge grape vine he didn't panic but studied the situation and extricated himself by moving in all directions until he got himself untangled. He is pretty fearless but very alert. He is larger than most Cracker horses but it may be because he was gelded at age one. The bosses of the Florida herds rode QH's but the workers would go out into the Sloughs and cature Cracker horses, break them, ride them for the roundup and turn them loose again. There are now two wild herds in Payne Prairie state park in Florida on 5000 acres of land and they are supposed to be doing very well. As far as riding, the paso fino is smoother I think on the whole. As far as really good sense I think the Crackers have the paso finos beaten and our paso finos come very close to him and are super smart but all those years of living independently gives them a huge survivial edge. SloughP can get out of any fence but will not challenge a single hot wire. He will eat anything from bark to duck week out of the pond and thrive. His feet are so hard you can't use nippers and they will dull a file in one use. Luckily here he's on abrasive terrain but on sand in Florida I nearly died trying to trim them. He watches everything you do and remembers it. He's very stubborn but if you persisit he does what you want and remembers it. He's totally fascinating. Native Floridians took the Cracker horses for granted and considered them inferior horses but luckily a few of the ranchers knew their value and gathered up a couple of large herds before they lost the entire breed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/IM000247a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/sloughpheight.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/sloughpjtaila.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/sloughprun.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/CRW_1705.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/CRW_1594.jpg

Edurne

08-05-2006, 11:30 AM

Thanks..... that was more informative than the site.

motorgypsy

08-05-2006, 03:50 PM

:smile: :smile:

Oh - I forgot to mention that they ranged all the way up into GA and are also called "Marsh TAckies". I don't think GA has any left but luckily FL saved them from extinction. They oiginated from the herds brought over by the conquistadors just like our paso finos but instead of remaining "owned" they were the ones who escaped or perhaps the rider was killed or injured in battle or the ship wrecked. They are very hard to find for sale now and are classified as a rare breed. Every now and then you'll find the geldings for sale.

hey have a big Florida Cracker Festival each year and trail ride. There is also a native breed of cattle called Cracker cattle that has very old roots also. Very hardy and much smaller than todays modern breeds.

GeorgeGuns

08-08-2006, 12:36 AM

Can you explain to me how a natural 55* angle differs from what I am hearing you say as not a natural 55* angle???

Not all horses have a 55 degree angle. Some hooves are more naturally upright than others. 55 might be right on target (natural) for one horse and way too high for another, or too steep for yet another.

motorgypsy

08-08-2006, 02:16 AM

And it unfortunately seems to be common among some farrier to just trim paso finos at 57 degrees or 55 degrees and forget what they should be trimmed at. I have one mare who is probably well over 60 degrees and another that is about 51 degrees naturally. One goes lame if you trim her too low. We keep the other above 51 just because it's easier on her suspensories but we sure don't keep her at 60.

CarolU

08-08-2006, 04:04 PM

I agree with Jaci. I've seen many thousands of wild horses in western Utah and don't consider them genetically superior to any other horse, and their hooves are nothing I'd want to see on any of my horses.

I would define "natural trim" as what is natural for that particular horse, i.e., natural angles. But, many horses require tweaking to remove flares, correct legs, build heels, even out walls, etc. So 'natural' in many cases is not what the horse needs; the horse needs "a good trim" job - wheater by a "natural trimmer" or a farrier - a good trim is a good trim is a good trim.

I do agree that MOST horses in MOST areas/uses do not require shoes. But, there are times when horses NEED shoes. These include correction, to hold pads on, when used extensively in highly abrasive terrain, riding or living in sharp rocky terrain, to raise the horse off of hot ground, to stablize while cracks grow out, etc. I'm sure others can add to this list.

CarolU

08-08-2006, 04:08 PM

BTW - on a sidebar, there are several herds of mustangs that have lived in isolated pockets in the west that have been DNA tested, and carry pure Spanish blood. These include the Kieger in Oregon and the Sulfur herd in Utah/Nevada. There is another (I don't recall the name) in New Mexico that was on a National Geographic special.

As for all the other mustangs, it was not at all uncomon for ranchers here to turn out QH and TB stallions to "improve" the local mustang herds, since that is where they got most of their riding horses. Genetically, they are mutts just like any other grade horse.

TrueStepPaso

08-08-2006, 07:00 PM

Bands of wild horses formed from a specific gene pool. The horses that couldn't adapt to the terrain or the food died off and therefor didn't breed. So the herd through natural selection became genetically strong for its enviorment.

Jaci

You agree with Jaci here......or you "don't consider them genetically superior"????? Are you just reading my posts, or are you reading the entire thing?
I am stating that the wild/feral horses (not kept on some 50,000 acre ranch/enclosure) we find living out west {for example} are wonderful role models for hooves/health.....especially if one were to think of them as "genetically strong".
Again, we ALL know that most of the horses in North America are of mixed blood due to draft/QH/whatever infusion from loose horses joining bands......the point is that horses are horses, and whatever is left out there are wonderful examples of how hooves survive without humans. Thats it.
We also know that a good trim is a good trim is a good trim......blah, blah.........what the owners do beyond that trim is another story. Whatever works for the horse.

CarolU

08-13-2006, 12:02 AM

I am stating that the wild/feral horses (not kept on some 50,000 acre ranch/enclosure) we find living out west {for example} are wonderful role models for hooves/health.....especially if one were to think of them as "genetically strong".
Again, we ALL know that most of the horses in North America are of mixed blood due to draft/QH/whatever infusion from loose horses joining bands......the point is that horses are horses, and whatever is left out there are wonderful examples of how hooves survive without humans.

I was agreeing with this that Jaci said:

The bottom line is that if you are studying those wild horses then you are studying the off spring of a lot of quarter horse bred ranch stock and not native mustangs.

I also said there are pockets of pure Spanish stock here and there, but those were not the ones studied to come up with the 'natural trim'...my point is that there is no genetically superior horse out here (well, not counting the beautiful Paso Finos in my pasture, who of course ARE superior to all other western horses. :lol: )

Abbey, the problem I have is that people continually romanticize what reality is for wild horses. The horses get hoof chips and cracks, abcesses, stone bruises, they founder, they colic from worms, they get lame, they break legs, and THEY DIE YOUNG!!!! You don't find old horses on the range. This is no romantic ideal without human intervention. It is a very rough life.

Maybe, MAYBE in a few hundred or thousand years we 'might' see some genetic changes in horses by not interfering with them, but even the few real 'wild' horses of pure Spanish stock are still the descendents of domestic horses and are not WILD HORSES. We've already interfered with them for thousands of years.

I know that Dr. Strasser found SOME mustang feet (in Wyoming, wasn't it?) that were strong and modeled her "natural trim" off them. But the truth is that that trim is only natural for THOSE horses in THAT environment, and the MAJORITY of wild horses here have horrible feet. That is why the BLM tips them over and trims them when they catch them - because their feet are bad. And no, these horses are not on 50,000 acre pastures - the range I am most familiar with is over 13,000 square MILES. It is larger then the state of Rhode Island. I have been around these horses for 30 years. Terry's expereinces are identical to mine, and she's in Colorado.

I have a lot more faith in Dr. Deb Bennett's study of horse's feet, and she found no difference in wild vs. domestic - because there is no difference.

TrueStepPaso

08-15-2006, 05:16 PM

Again....what you are agreeing with is elementary.....we know about the different gene pools amongst feral horses. Thats my point: there's a nice variety out there that are getting equal results in hoof health.
Ppl aren't studying the exact bloodlines of these horses, they are just studying their environment & the hooves. Robert Painter's nucleus herd of Spanish Barbs in Idaho are getting the same results as the Sulphur Herd in Utah..and the Kiger herd.....same with Mustangs in Nevada, Brumbies in Australia, horses in Mongolia, New Zealand...........
Where are you getting this "info" that NO ONE on this ENTIRE PLANET EVER STUDIED these "secret" pure pockets of Spanish stock (that no one seems to know about) in regards to hoofcare???? Did one of the authors call you to tell you that they just had to get it off their chest to someone that they purposefully DNA tested the horse to make SURE they never studied one pure Spanish horse's hoof? Just curious.....because you seem to "know" that Strasser modeled her book after a couple of mustang feet in Wyoming. Actually Carol, her books were written prior to ever stepping foot on Mid/Western US soil....it was based on JJ's "The Natural Horse", and research done in Germany. Why do you think JJ wants to get as far away from her as possible?
No such thing, ever, as an "old" horse in the wild.....25yrs old is kinda old to me. Not to mention that the American Association of Equine Practitioners cautions that after all permanant teeth are fully erupted, aging becomes increasingly difficult & states that horses cannot be accurately aged beyond 12 yrs. Accuracy of aging techniques cannot be 100% without known-age animals.
Of course Bennet found no difference in domestic & wild horse hooves!!!!! They AREN'T different!!! One more time: the only difference between domestic horses and wild horses are their lifestyle. Hence, the influence of "shaping" healthy hooves. No one here, as far as I've ever seen, romanticizes feral horses. They are not genetically superior, IMO......they are just horses. That is why, yes, they do twist fetlocks and go lame, they get kicked, they get frightened by helicopters and break legs, and they probably get stone bruises. But I've never heard of a horse collicing from parasites in the "wild"....they've been proven to be beneficial to those horses, and hoof chips....well, that is the natural process of wearing a hoof sometimes. There are pictures of these horses actually filing their hooves on rocks!
I think the simple fact (aka problem) is that you are a closet basher of barefoot, and YOU romanticize that your horses would absolutely perish without you. :roll:

motorgypsy

08-15-2006, 09:13 PM

We have paso finos with really fantastic feet but they are no comparison to our Florida Cracker's feet. First of all his feet are huge. They are also hard as epoxy and supposedly they don't get thrush. The mustangs I've seen also had larger than normal feet and wider frogs. So there are some differences that may be both environmental and hereditary. Todays' QH's have very small feet for the most part. If any of you are in Florida there are two herds of Cracker horses on 5,000 acres in Paynes Prairie sp? State Park. They're supposed to be doing very well.

Jaci

08-16-2006, 07:33 AM

That is a bit harsh... Am I to assume that if someone doesn't just roll over and agree with you that they are considered bashers?

Enlighten me... what is the opinion that is "allowed" on this board?

From what I read CarolU was expressing an opinion based on her own experiences.

Jaci

Jaci

08-16-2006, 07:49 AM

Since the main issue here seems to be to shoe or not to shoe... I have a question to propose to youall.

From jusst about the time that man and horse first began their relationship man has been slapping shoes of some sort on horses. At least the man (people) that had access to some form of metal.

And if what I was taught in school was correct; that early man did things out of need rather than whim... then it be fair to assume that these shoes were put on horses out of need and not to just have a horse with bling.

The question then would be; if man did things out of need and not whim and he would have not done more work than was actually needed then why would he chose to put shoes on a horse if they could have functioned well without them?

Jaci

Abejita

08-16-2006, 10:33 AM

shoes were put on horses out of need and not to just have a horse with bling.

Oh man .. now you put an idea in my head..now when Brad comes Saturday I am gonna have to have a rhinestone encrusted shoe for him to put on my mare...Thanks a lot.. :roll: .

motorgypsy

08-16-2006, 01:48 PM

Man shod his WORKING horses from waaaay back - but then working horses worked from sunup to sun down frequently on cobblestone road or other very abrasive surfaces. They were the autos and trucks of their day. My grandfather was a blacksmith and the picture I have of him shows him with two huge grey draft horses in a harness. Horses delivered the mail, the milk, ploughed the fields, pulled the grinding wheels, pulled the fire trucks, picked up the garbage and the dead bodies and the contents of the chamber pots, carried the family and provisions, were the taxis of the day.

As I mentioned previously there were one million horses in London before the auto. They were not wormed, kept in stalls, fed the best the owner knew how or could afford and very likely died young and were eaten.

The point being you shoe horses when they need them just as our grandfathers and great grandfathers did. Do you think they shod the brood mares if they weren't being worked? I doubt it - but then very likely most of them worked until they dropped the foal.

Today horses are a luxury and very likely most do not need shoes. Before motorized vehicles horses were worked so hard they had to have shoes to stay sound.

It's not the same world and the point made is exactly the one we all need to consider. Just as grandpa shod his horse because it was necessary, so we can keep our horses for the most part unshod because they AREN'T necessary today. Aren't we lucky we have great nutrition and the ability to use our horses as we wish, wisely, rather than have to work them sunup to sundown because our survival and theirs depends on it.

So you really think granpa would put shoes on OUR horses??? Not likely. They didn't shoes horses if they didn't need them.

And in case you haven't really read the post we are NOT anti shoe at all.

As we've said many times before our farrier told us not to shoes our horses because he got tired of breaking nails trying to get shoes on them and told us they didn't need them. That was five years ago. If they needed them we' put shoes on them. It's that simple. The question is when to they need them and for some reason noone contributed to the thread started on that subject.

TrueStepPaso

08-16-2006, 02:22 PM

Horses have been employed by man for 7,000 yrs....we've only been shoeing for 1,000. There have been all sorts of methods of hoof protection going on prior to shoeing.
Shoes (like todays modern metal/aluminum) came about by way of chainmail makers. Horses were kept indoors for long periods of time due to marauders, and their feet suffered due to standing around on stone & their own excrement. So, more and more wealthy ppl started putting shoes on as well......and you know how society is so envious and fascinated by the rich & famous. Monkey see, monkey do.
Not to mention...times were a changin', and not many cared to learn about natural hoof function.

Jaci

08-16-2006, 02:46 PM

Jaci

08-16-2006, 02:56 PM

By the way, are you the same Jaci that I used to know in Arizona?

Don't know... Which Cindy are you??? lol

Jaci

Jaci

08-16-2006, 02:59 PM

If they needed them we' put shoes on them. It's that simple. The question is when to they need them and for some reason noone contributed to the thread started on that subject.

Actually, I think that I pretty much said that in my post on horse shoers.

And as far as when they need shoes, didn't the orginal post address that... the fact that a person subscribing to some sort of specialized hoof care theory was being or had been arrested on abuse/cruelty charges.

So I guess they need shoes when it would be abusive or cruel to not have them.

Jaci

CarolU

08-16-2006, 03:51 PM

I do agree that MOST horses in MOST areas/uses do not require shoes. But, there are times when horses NEED shoes.

Abby....where in ANY of my posts do you come up with that I am a "closet basher of barefoot"??? You have a LOT of nerve lady! Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a "basher"...FYI I have three adult horses here I have NEVER put a shoe on...for the simple reason...THEY NEVER NEEDED THEM. So don't give me your "poor picking on me" BS! If you can't discuss (not argue) and quit calling peole who disagree with you names, then perhaps hoof care discussions are not for you.

The problem with your arguement is that you want it BOTH ways. First you say that the wild horses have BETTER hooves,
there's a nice variety out there that are getting equal results in hoof health.
Ppl aren't studying the exact bloodlines of these horses, they are just studying their environment & the hooves. Robert Painter's nucleus herd of Spanish Barbs in Idaho are getting the same results as the Sulphur Herd in Utah..and the Kiger herd.....same with Mustangs in Nevada, Brumbies in Australia, horses in Mongolia, New Zealand...........

then you say that of course Dr. Bennett found no difference in domestic and wild horse hooves, because there isn't any. Of course Bennet found no difference in domestic & wild horse hooves!!!!! They AREN'T different!!! One more time: the only difference between domestic horses and wild horses are their lifestyle.

Make up your mind lady...you can't argue both sides of the fence!

As for you never hearing of wild hores dieing of parasites, you want to come out for some of the next wild horse necropsies? I'm good friends with the vet who does them on the Cedar Mnt range, and again, I hate to burst your bubble but many of them die of impactions from parasites. You know Abby, I've SEEN lame wild horses...passed them daily to/from work. Maybe you should go help the BLM with a round-up (I have) and actually see what the feet look like BEFORE you insist they are all perfect - from 2000 miles away.

Jaci

08-16-2006, 03:59 PM

Not to mention...times were a changin', and not many cared to learn about natural hoof function.

TrueStep

I'm not so sure that I agree with that... It is hard to learn about information that isn't available and most of the current hoof structure/function information wasn't available 30, 40 50 years ago and in some cases even 25 or 20 years ago.

People did and do the best they knew how to do. and I will say that I think in some ways they knew more than we know today... They were just practical.

This sort of applies here so I will share a true story with you guys. I think it speaks volumes!
Years ago when I was showing dogs there was a book out by McDowell Lyons on conformation that was the dog breeders bible. In this book he measured leg angles and looked at form to function to the best available knowledge of the day. He would go to top kennels and talk to breeders and ask what they looked for in conformation. He had been all over when he heard about a man that was pig dog breeder in somewhere like Lousiana. This breeder had a waiting list for his dogs and was getting unheard prices for his puppies. McDowell went to visit this man to learn his knowledge of conformation and breeding. McDowell asked him question after question on conformation and function to which the man always stated, "I don't know." Finally McDowell asked the man, " If you don't know about conformation, how is it that you have the best pig dogs in the country?" The man answered," Well when the puppies are 6 months old I take them pig hunting. The ones that come back, I breed."

Jaci

CarolU

08-16-2006, 04:13 PM

I don't think any discussion of Dr. Strasser's method would be complete without mentioning the FACTS that many horses have had to be put down following her radical trims, that owners have been charged for cruelty, doing these trims, and that both the AAEP and many professional farrier groups have come out against her method.

http://www.anvilmag.com/farrier/207f2.htm

This is NOT to say that all barefoot trimmers are bad, just that Strasser's is a little TOO radical. I do agree with letting horses go barefoot who CAN.

Jaci

08-16-2006, 05:28 PM

I don't think any discussion of Dr. Strasser's method would be complete without mentioning the FACTS that many horses have had to be put down following her radical trims, .

Carol

I think that you made a very important point when you said "radical trims"

All to often, a new flavor of the month theory on what is healthy for people, dogs, cats, horses comes along and people jump in with both feet. They don't take time to research the research... to stop and ask if it even makes sense. Someone, often times a self appointed authority, says it and people follow blindly.

We need to realize what is radical and what is reasonable and then make an informed decision that works best for us and our situation. :!:

Jaci

TrueStepPaso

08-16-2006, 06:56 PM

Temper, temper Carol.....you know exactly what I'm talking about. Do you think ppl are blind, hun?

BTW, where did I say in that quote you tried that they had "better" hooves? Because I'm having a hard time seeing it? Um, my only point there was that horses in that particular lifestyle (no matter the bloodlines) are getting HEALTHY hooves.....then I say that that there is no difference in hooves (*MEANING THE PHYSIOLOGY/INNER STRUCTURES/WORKINGS) between domestic & feral.......just (one more time) THEIR LIFESTYLE....try to keep up.
Congrats though on seeing "wild" horses in holding facilities.... :roll: Gee, is there anything you haven't done..?

TrueStepPaso

08-16-2006, 06:58 PM

Terry Wallace

08-16-2006, 07:56 PM

From a light-hearted view..... :D

Now, how many times will we have to have this discussion this year? :D :shock: :lol: :lol:

Bottom Line is...some horses NEED shoes...some don't. You will know if yours does if it is tender while ridden.

I'll bet CarolU has seen LOTS of wild horses...she is in Utah!

I've seen HUNDREDS at Canon City, Colorado prison...the "WHIP" program.... wild horse inmate program, in which the inmates do the training. the horses come from Nevada,Utah and Colorado.

Too bad no one is allowed to take photos at the prison (for security reasons) holding facility...I'd love to show you (the feet) I see there...but that is not possible!

Pasogirlz

08-16-2006, 08:10 PM

I think we all need to watch our tone. :-? I'm just about sick of it. :twisted:

Jaci

08-16-2006, 08:27 PM

From a light-hearted view..... :D

Now, how many times will we have to have this discussion this year? :D :shock: :lol: :lol:

Sorry there Terry

I am new to this board and didn't realize that you had discussed this before.

I do however think that it probably is a topic that needs repeating, but that is just me.

Jaci

Jaci

08-16-2006, 08:30 PM

(*MEANING THE PHYSIOLOGY/INNER STRUCTURES/WORKINGS) between domestic & feral.......just (one more time) THEIR LIFESTYLE....try to keep up.
Congrats though on seeing "wild" horses in holding facilities.... :roll: Gee, is there anything you haven't done..?

TrueStep

Since I am new here...and don't know who has done what and when. Would you please be so kind as to tell me what heard of wild horses that you were privy to study? I would love to read up on them myself. Always

Jaci

CarolU

08-16-2006, 08:37 PM

Temper, temper Carol.....you know exactly what I'm talking about. Do you think ppl are blind, hun?

Congrats though on seeing "wild" horses in holding facilities.... :roll: Gee, is there anything you haven't done..?

#1 - Don't call me "hun," and DO NOT patronize me.

#2 - Did I say anything about "holding facilities?" The wild horses I have been around are living on their range, in western Tooele County (look on a map). The ones I helped the BLM with were during a round-up on the Cedar Mountain range, long before they got to any holding facilities. BTW - it was a horrible, ugly, experience, one I'll never repeat, which is why I only did it once.

#3 - I can't help it if I'm older and have more real-life experiences then you, but that is just the way life is.

#4 - Yes, there are things I've never done. I've never cantered or jumped a horse on concrete before.

Mellifluous

08-16-2006, 08:48 PM

http://www.funnydog.net/images/funny-butt.jpg

CarolU

08-16-2006, 08:51 PM

Thank you Mel...this thread needs that. :lol:

KAB

08-16-2006, 09:04 PM

Way to go Mel............................and you too, Carol...................and I'll go to my room now Lori.

Terry Wallace

08-16-2006, 11:16 PM

Jaci...no need to appologize! This is a topic we get on year after year after year! No way new people to this BB could know that....

I reckon it is one we will chew, argue, debate and hammer for YEARS to come!

Lighten up everyone! or Lori will fire up the forge and shoe, SHOOOO us all !!!!

Ah....Mel....is that the same guy in your avatar as is on the kitty hiney???? :D

Barbwire

08-16-2006, 11:27 PM

OMG! Good eye Terry! :rofl

CarolU

08-17-2006, 01:22 AM

Terry...now THAT is funny! Mel, you did it now! :rofl

Barbwire

08-17-2006, 01:30 AM

What a cat'sasstrophy!

Pasomom

08-17-2006, 01:40 AM

Glad to see this thread lighten up a bit.....

We needed to calm down a bit. Thanks Mel for the Comic relief! ;-)

Jaci

08-17-2006, 03:16 AM

PasoMom aka Barbara

I mean no disrespect but what sort of name is "Dixie Pride Seasoning" for a horse? I will say this... it is one that I bet no one forgets... Is he a race horse?

Jaci

Jaci

08-17-2006, 03:22 AM

[quote="CarolU #4 - Yes, there are things I've never done. I've never cantered or jumped a horse on concrete before.[/quote]

Oh Carol, I have done that... Actually I wasn't a willing party to the event. More like a pasanger, sort of just along for the ride... :shock: but the end result was the same.

Horse 1 point. Rider none.

I did, however take satisfaction in the fact that I think the urin smell bothered him for a while...

Jaci

Abejita

08-17-2006, 10:17 AM

Jaci..its a seasoning for food..not a horse lol

Barbwire

08-17-2006, 11:41 AM

PasoMom aka Barbara

I mean no disrespect but what sort of name is "Dixie Pride Seasoning" for a horse? I will say this... it is one that I bet no one forgets... Is he a race horse?

Jaci

http://bestsmileys.com/lol/4.gifSorry to laugh, but that is just too darned funny!

CarolU

08-17-2006, 12:55 PM

Somebody (else) doesn't visit the homepage... :lol:

http://www.americanpasofinos.com/info.php?id=3

Mellifluous

08-17-2006, 01:45 PM

Ah....Mel....is that the same guy in your avatar as is on the kitty hiney???? :D

Oh my GOSH - I never noticed that! That is pretty funny!

ASB.Immortality

08-18-2006, 04:31 PM

I just have gotten a chance to get back to this thread. I really didn't mean for it to get everyone back onto the sides of the fences. I was just curious what exactly that Strasser thing was.

As for cat butt... that was just hilarious! I love it.

ASB.Immortality

08-19-2006, 04:36 AM

Found something tonight that was interesting:
http://thehorseshoof.com/strassercontro.html

motorgypsy

08-19-2006, 05:00 AM

Very interesting. Thanks! When it comes to trimming, barefoot and shoes an aweful lot is just plain common sense - which unfortunately is not necessarily in abundant supply :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

CarolU

08-19-2006, 01:06 PM

Well, I read that article, curious to see if they gave both sides of the story since they are friends with Dr. Strasser. They didn't. Here are some other articles worth reading:

http://www.anvilmag.com/farrier/207f2.htm

http://www.iberiansporthorse.com/Strasser.htm

http://www.ilph.org/ukoperations_details.asp?id=652

http://www.hoofcare.com/carre_strasser.html

http://www.hoofcare.com/ilph_strasser.html

There are many more.

Terry Wallace

08-19-2006, 01:50 PM

Yep CarolU... I have stayed off this thread because I'm about as anti-Stausser as they come...I think this quote from one of your links sums up how I feel!
I cannot recommend the Strasser trim in place of more traditional farrier methods.

Thats all I'm gonna say...!

If she showed up here I'd run her off the property with a pitchfork!

CarolU

08-19-2006, 02:07 PM

As you know, I am a scientist by training. I firmly believe in research and looking at data - ALL DATA - even when it doesn't support your pet theories. As you know, I also am very much a Naturalist. I believe in feeding, caring for, and training horses as naturally as possible. So for me, keeping my horses as natural as possible is very important. However the data I read all supports routine worming and vaccinations, teeth care as needed, and yes 'good trimming' and shoes if/when neeeded.

"Natural" isn't always best, in fact there are many natural things that are downright dangerous: poisonous plants, moldy feed, fly infestations, parasites, etc.

And I believe you and I agree, there is nothing "natural" about our herds of wild horses in the west. They are not a native species, when they did live in North America, the areas they lived in were the steppes, very grassy, dry, rocky, and cold. They were also a very different animal then the wild horse of today, and were small, hardy animals, more like ponies. Of course, there is so little that remains totally 'natural' in the west, that what is here now will not support the large native herds of buffalo, pronghorn, elk, and deer that SHOULD be here. We compromise what is 'modern' and what is 'nature' all the time. There really is no choice at this point and time to go backwards.