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GeorgeGuns
08-03-2006, 03:05 PM
I thought I'd throw this info out because I've noticed in a few threads the reference to rings, etc with founder.

Founder: painful rotation of the coffin bone (P3)

Laminitis: inflammation of the lamina and basement cells that form the lamina (whiteline)

Stretched whiteline - obvious. It needs to be stressed here that for hte lamina to separate (even small stretching is a degree of separation of the inner and outer lamina - think of velcro) there has to be a metabolic influence. MMP3 is an enzyme that is responsible for the natural slow breakdown of lamina at a rate that actually promotes growth - its kind of like the outer lamina walks down the wall of the inner lamina. Leverage forces on the wall in a horse that is NOT in any kind of metabolic upset (by this I mean even a little too much sugar in the diet - each horse has different sensativities to this and its individual) will have some flare with an intact whiteline, and these are the horses that chip down to a good level and self trim quite nicely. With a degree of metabolic influence, the walls flare and we see the stretch and some grossly ugly chipping as the hoof tries to get rid of poorly attached wall.

A horse can have any combination of these.

Can founder happen in the absence of metabolic upset and without bloody laminitis? Yes, its not the extreme founder that we normally think of first. If the sole is thinned and the heels are too high this lowers the tip of the bone, raises the back of the bone, the horse will be ouchy, and exrays will show "rotation" - this rotation is more related to the heel area being above ground parellel (1-3 degrees being normal) than the front of P3 being rotated away from the wall. Often these horses appear with clubby hooves, and may also be diagnosed with navicular, the founder idea being missed because there is little or no whiteline separation. In this horse, the goal is to get the heels down and back and functional, and to let the sole grow and then callous off. Backing up breakover is also necessary to let the heels get back. (if you pull the front forward, the rear usually follows!)

Laminitis refers to the circulatory component of the founder types. I have been unable to find sufficient information regarding why some horses show blood in a very tight whiteline and others don't. Dr Pollits researck on the MMP3 factor is dead on, but I think it falls short and that there are other factors that are individual to each horse. I would not be surprised to find out that the horses that only have some blood in the WL are the true road founders and that this is in response to higher condussive forces than teh hoof can handle - and a great excuse to boot rather than shoe! This IS laminitis, BUT by the time we see it its OLD because that circulatory issue happens at the coronary band first and works its way down either in a big circulation collapse or the bloody area just grows out.

The lines in the hoof... almost always correllate to stretched whiteline. The wall is inherently weaker and thinner directly outside the poor whiteline, and why would it not be? Poor whiteline cannot support a thick wall, so it thins. When we change the breakover and adjust the diet to allow good WL to grow down, we get the lines to go away.

Okay, so if you have a founder (rotation only) that is not related to a metabolic event, the whiteline gets to stay intact and you won't have lines! The horse is sore because either the sole is thinned (lets the front of P3 closer to the ground) or the heels are too high (raises the heel of the P3 up) or both. Thin soled horses may have an exaggerated heel first landing at the walk (flat at walk is okay, toe first may be depending on the horse, landing is best judged at a faster gait), whereas the tall heeled horse will land toe first and tend to trip and be ouchy on rocks even if the sole IS thick. Combine both and the poor beast doesn't know how to land and will actually alternate between toe and heel first, and if we do a good job, we may see a horse that goes completely over to one or the other as only one part of the hoof now hurts. The reason I birng this up is because we may have horse that is rotated and no rings apparent, but is landing heel first merely because the heel hurts less than the toe, and its easy to miss the founder idea on these horses, they move like navicular horses.

On the contrary, you can have a horse that has lines, due to stretched WL that appears sound. Now why does this happen? Go back 2 paragraphs. This is exactly why its important to not go beyond 6 weeks in the hoofcare program. Every time we trim the hoof or reset shoes (assuming its a good job of either) we are promoting healthy WL to grow down from the coronary, and that area of wall will be well attached and thicker and healthier. By 6 weeks though, the leverage forces of a horse in need of a trim or reset are enough to decrease the quality of WL and wall coming out of the coronary band (the rationale for this can be dealt with later if anyone is interested) and we get thinner wall, thus a groove or ring.

I hope I hae not further confused issues, lol, it may take a couple reads to realize that this is quite logical.

Mellifluous
08-03-2006, 03:12 PM
It is funny how hooves can tell a story. You can look at Spirit's feet and estimate that something stressful happened to him 7-8 months ago. He has rings on his hooves. I have heard them called "fever rings." They are almost grown out at this point.

Now, what do you think could have happened to the poor guy to cause him to get these rings? I know, just curious if anyone has a guess.

Abejita
08-03-2006, 03:45 PM
I also think a ring can be seen where a change happend that could be good..or just a change..I have a gelding here who did not founder..not sore no heat..I just took him off grass early May because I wanted to get some weight off of him and he is a typical 'founder prone' looking horse. You can see a line on his hoof that seems to match the time frame.Nutrition .

If the sole is thinned and the heels are too high this lowers the tip of the bone, raises the back of the bone, the horse will be ouchy, and exrays will show "rotation" - this rotation is more related to the heel area being above ground parellel (1-3 degrees being normal) than the front of P3 being rotated away from the wall.

Yes I agree completely except where you call this a founder.In a case like this you will be able to look at the whole hoof and fetlock pastern area on x-ray and many times see that all bones are out of alignment .You say it yourself -more related to the heel area being above ground parellel (1-3 degrees being normal) than the front of P3 being rotated away from the wall. To be founder you will have the P3 away from the wall..because you will have weak lamina Technically in the scenario you are describing it is a bad trim job or just bad conformation /way the horse grwos naturally for whatever reason that causes the misalignment.But it isnt a Founder.

motorgypsy
08-03-2006, 04:08 PM
Everytime our guys are changed to a different pasture or changed feed they get those lines so I wonder if they are always related to founder???

Terry Wallace
08-03-2006, 07:10 PM
They are not always related to founder. You can have "fever rings" show up if a horse stood in water too long..like stood in water or very wet muck for 48 hours.... like in the cold & snow, and got chilly and stressed enough to get them.

When you have seedy toe...then you can be assured it is founder rings, and will give an indication of when it happened...as the hoof generally grows about 3/8" per month. By the same token, you can pretty well tell how long it will be before the rings grow out.

Cindy
08-03-2006, 08:05 PM
Anything that stresses the horse can give it rings.

NikiGA
08-03-2006, 08:26 PM
It is funny how hooves can tell a story. You can look at Spirit's feet and estimate that something stressful happened to him 7-8 months ago. He has rings on his hooves. I have heard them called "fever rings." They are almost grown out at this point.

Now, what do you think could have happened to the poor guy to cause him to get these rings? I know, just curious if anyone has a guess.

Could be anything, but did you geld him? That is my guess. If I am right, do I get extra cookies for the holidays? :D

Mellifluous
08-03-2006, 08:31 PM
It is funny how hooves can tell a story. You can look at Spirit's feet and estimate that something stressful happened to him 7-8 months ago. He has rings on his hooves. I have heard them called "fever rings." They are almost grown out at this point.

Now, what do you think could have happened to the poor guy to cause him to get these rings? I know, just curious if anyone has a guess.

Could be anything, but did you geld him? That is my guess. If I am right, do I get extra cookies for the holidays? :D


Very good, extra cookies for you! A lovely trip to UGA for laproscopic gelding - No wonder he has hoof rings from that event.

motorgypsy
08-03-2006, 11:51 PM
I just remembered something - DMSO seems to leave a major ring on the hoof. It happened on two of our guys.

NikiGA
08-04-2006, 12:42 AM
Very good, extra cookies for you! A lovely trip to UGA for laproscopic gelding - No wonder he has hoof rings from that event.

Boy, I am really racking up the cookies! :lol: Can't believe I have been so together lately....... Poor guy, I don't have balls or hooves and I still feel bad for him. He had a rough go!

Red Ryder
08-04-2006, 03:04 AM
Cindy, this may well be a first for you and I, but you are 100% correct in saying "Anything that stresses the horse can give it rings"

It may not be related to founder at all. A mare giving birth will create rings.

The important thing is how deep are the ring??? This will tell you to a degree how much stress the horse went through.

The position of the rings on the hoof will give you an idea of how long ago the stress happened. It takes roughly one full year for a hoof to grow from the cornet band to the toe to be trimmed off, so if the ring is midway down a normal length hoof the stress occured roughly 6 months ago. Now the depth of the ring starts to tell you the severity of the stress or ailment. I've seen 1/4" deep rings that you could lay your little finger in. When you see deep rings go looking for Seedy toe, broad white lines, legiment problems.

The hoofs can tell you a real story if you know how to read them.

Terry Wallace
08-04-2006, 12:39 PM
I have not had DMSO cause rings tro a hoof...BUT....it sure is about the BEST thing to use on abcessed feet...amazing how good and fast it can work.

;-)

motorgypsy
08-04-2006, 01:56 PM
DMSO for abscessed feet - REALLY! I was concerned about there being infection so have not used it. Does it help it blow out sooner or just lower the inflamation to the point where the tissue is reabsorbed with no blowout??? The two times we got rings were when Brandy had a drip for her injuries and Bonnie had it used on her knees for her "gimp".

TrueStepPaso
08-04-2006, 02:58 PM
They are not always related to founder. You can have "fever rings" show up if a horse stood in water too long..like stood in water or very wet muck for 48 hours.... like in the cold & snow, and got chilly and stressed enough to get them.


No kidding....that makes sense now...that explains some stuff over here with all the freakin rain we had. I mean we had record breaking rain here in New England....

Terry Wallace
08-04-2006, 05:57 PM
Both...it blows it out quicker AND heals it much faster. I used it on the worst case of two hind abcesses feet...I mean bruised to the point of dark purple soles....with erutptions on the coronary band side and at the back of the heel bulb...and I can tell you I had that horse nearly sound inside of 8 weeks.

He later went on to be completely sound. DMSO amazes me...but you must handle it with a lot of care.

motorgypsy
08-04-2006, 10:27 PM
Oh we really believe in DMSO but strongly second your cautions in using it because of it's ability to carry other molecules into the body. I used it on what was probably a fractured cheekbone and was blown away by how quickly the inflammation was reduced. I still have a dent in the bone but no eye involvement and it was headed that way. It did blister the skin and stung like salt water on a cut but was well worth it. It was a nasty injury when my face collided with the door frame on the trailer at high speed.