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Candice Burger
08-10-2006, 01:02 PM
Pinto breeders take heart--if I can confirm some recent information, I'm about to eat crow on what I've said about the pinto horses of Puerto Rico.

The horse "Apache" appeared on the pedigree of a great mare called Wendolyn. Wendolyn is the mother of Cuentas Claras, one of the most influential PPR sires.

I was told that Wendolyn was "crazy"; she had too much brios and was difficult. Wendolyn's mother's father was a horse called Conquistador. Conquistador is shown as Apache X Vicky.

In pedigrees of imported horses from PR, Apache shows up as a MARE. Apache is a STALLION. I have confirmed this several ways. Apache was bred by Wilfredo Bertran, the breeder of Kopeki and Cuentas Claras. I was told that he liked pintos--"good" pintos and Apache was a pinto.

The person telling me this got his information from the rider of Apache and he also saw a picture of Apache hanging on a wall in the rider's house. The rider was Minin (sp?) Kuilin, the father of Negro Kuilin, one of the best PPR trainers right now. Mr. Kuilin claims that Apache was an excellent example of a PPR and was a great horse to ride; very quick with good brios. I don't know when, but I hope to get a copy of this picture of Apache for everyone to see. Apache is also registered in the Federation stud book as "pinto".

Apache's father was Ponce. Ponce is a full brother to the mare Juana de Arco, one of the most influential mares in my opinion. Ponce and Juana de Arco are in Wendolyn's pedigree. Both are offspring of Guamani X Carioca. In a recent visit to see Mr. Bertran, I asked about the horse Ponce because I noticed he was used frequently by Mr. Bertran. He said the horse was a very good animal. Mr. Bertran purchased Juana de Arco as one of several foundation brood mares. He named her as 1 of 5 mares that he considered his best mares. The horses I saw back in the early 80s from Juana de Arco had excellent brios and power. I was always impressed with this mare line.

Apache's mother is Primavera or somtimes as Primavera II. I have no other information about the mare. In a discussion with another PPR breeder about mares, Puerto Rico did not consider mares seriously. So, many times there would be a very good mare but no background check and no pedigree research about her. That is why there is allot of vacant pedigrees behind a mare. I hope Mr. Kuilin or Mr. Bertran might know more.

For the horses in PFHA with Apache as a mare; I doubt the authenticity of the pedigree. It appears that Apache was used when a pinto was imported to substantiate the color pattern for the military horses. I don't know if Mr. Bertran had business with any of the military at the time the horses were shipped stateside. I'll be checking timelines, dates, and hope to speak to Mr. Bertran again about this subject.

Pasogirlz
08-10-2006, 01:13 PM
Awesome post Candice. I would LOVE to see a photo of this horse and his mother. Thanks for doing the research for us and sharing.

Andres V
08-10-2006, 01:53 PM
Is a granson of Apache (by Ponce) standing stud. He is in his 20 yrs but is very nice as almost perfect confrmation and gait. I am maybe buy a filly from him, would like the colt they have.

Candice Burger
08-10-2006, 02:06 PM
Hey Andres, where is the horse at?

Andres V
08-10-2006, 02:20 PM
I am send a PM, the horse is in Tennessee his dam is pinto (buckskin I think) Takka.

Terry Wallace
08-19-2006, 03:57 PM
Andres...would he by chance be at Tami Pinell's?

Tami...You on?

Andres V
08-20-2006, 03:23 PM
No, that is not the owner.

Candice Burger
08-20-2006, 10:14 PM
The horse is Regalo de Maricahalo 3/4 PR.

Terry Wallace
08-21-2006, 02:27 AM
Regalo is owned by Stephanie S....

He is in the USA....they moved from Canada.

Andres V
08-23-2006, 11:39 AM
Yes, would love if was PPR but there is Col blood. I was wonder if was 3/4 or 7/8 PR. Thank you Candace. I have thought breed to a PPR mare I have.

Candice Burger
08-24-2006, 01:10 PM
Well, I have mixes for reasons that I see very good traits in both that neither strain exhibits. I'm trying to get those traits in one horse and then perpetuate the combined traits into the next generation. I am not sure how to go about doing this--so mistakes and time will teach me.

With that said, I can't encourage/discourage anyone who wants to remain pure to their strain. There are many advantages to staying pure--much more than the risks of mixing.

If folks are wanting to stay pure and have pintos--there are many in PR that have what you may want. Here in the states, finding a pure-strained pinto is difficult because many pinto breeders crossed with COL stock. I have not seen a pure pinto COL horse yet.

Terry Wallace
09-28-2006, 05:43 PM
Sooo...did you get the photo yet?

Candice Burger
09-28-2006, 06:14 PM
:( No. And it will probably take a personal trip to the farm to get a copy. Who knows when that will be?

I was looking at another pedigree that had Conquistador, the son of Apache, in it. Conquistador was also pinto. Apache is registered only as pinto, but Conquistador was registered as a chestnut pinto.

I will try to contact Mr. Bertran since he was the owner of Apache to see what the story is about this. It's very irregular to have a pinto registered. Why Bertran used and registered pintos with this prejudice is still a mystery to me. I would like to hear his story about it.

Even now, I was told that a farm has an excellently bred pinto mare but she is not registered. They are using her for breeding and IF the foal is solid they will register the foal. This is only one example but there are many more.

Another pinto breeder from the USA recently visited PR specifically looking for color. She had the same problem in trying to find registered pintos for breeding purposes. I'll have to check PFHA registration rules but I think a parent doesn't have to be PFHA registered but must be registered in a PFHA recognized registry. So, that would mean these pintos in PR would have to be registered before any foal would qualify for PFHA registration.

motorgypsy
09-28-2006, 10:17 PM
Yup - both registered by an accepted registry and parent verified with DNA from foal and both parents.

Candice Burger
10-02-2006, 01:31 PM
Apache's father, Ponce, was also pinto, I found out. I'm trying to confirm who Ponce's parents were. Right now he is listed as Guamani X Carioca.

I also found out that Bertran liked Apache because he was very beautiful and the women were attracted to the horse. That's how he picked up women! :roll: I should've known!