Breeding for color--help!

[pasorider]

My mare, Melusina La Estancia is black with two hind white socks. Her Sire, Contra-Successor was the same color, and I know 2 of her foals, one sired by El Duque and one sired by a tri color pinto both came out like my mare. What color or breeding should I try for to get a buckskin, grulla or palomino. Is there any chance to get one of these colors? I wouldn't mind a dun, as I love duns also.

[GeorgeGuns]

Okay, first lets look at your mare - she is black with no bay genes, and thats it, simple. Now she may be heterozygous black (Ee) or homozygous black (EE). (bay needs black gene to be expressed, so a chestnut may have a bay gene and its not expressed because no black gene)

In order to get a buckskin, or best chance of it, you need to breed her to a buckskin, which is a black + bay + creme dilution. (Now I forget if perlino is just homozygous creme on black, or if bay genes are in there too - if bay genes are in it, this is your best bet!)

You could breed her to a palomino (chestnut + creme) and it might have a bay gene hiding (not expressed because no black gene) but unless you know your mare is homosygous for black, you will will have a shot at chestnut, palomino, bucksin, black, or bay.

[Heidi]

Basic horse color:

E = black
e = red
A = agouti (works only on black to push the black to the points, making a black horse Bay. Reds can carry and pass on agouti.)
a = non-agouti
Cr = cream
cr = not cream

Capitol letters are dominant over non capital, meaning they will always express, they cannot "hide". All red horses are homozygous for color (ee).

Cremello is a red (ee) with double cream (CrCr), may or may not carry agouti. Agouti will not express on red-based horses.
Perlino is a Bay (EEAA, EeAA, EEAa, EeAa) with double cream (CrCr). The Perlino with heterozygous color (Ee) can produce red-based offspring (palomino).
Smoky Black is a black horse (EEaa, Eeaa) with one cream (Crcr). One dose of cream does not express on black, sometimes there will be a faint difference between a black and smoky black, but visually, the horse still looks black.
Smoky Cream is a black horse (EEaa, Eeaa) with two doses of cream (CrCr) and appears 'white' in color. There is a difference in it's coat color between SC and Perlino but you'd have to go to a color site with photos to see it, it is difficult to explain.
Double dose cream horses have blue eyes.

[Heidi]

To get a buckskin, palomino or grulla...

Buckskin.
Breed her to a Perlino (EE) with agouti (AA). Perlino has double cream genes (CrCr) so you will be assured of getting a dilute color.
IF the Perlino you breed her to is heterozygous for color (Ee) or agouti (Aa), you have the chance of getting a Smoky Black (no agouti) or a palomino if the mare is heterozygous for color (Ee).

Palomino.
Breed to a Cremello (double cream) so you are assured of getting a dilute foal, but you can only get a palomino if your mare is heterozygous for color (Ee) and you will be taking a chance that she passes the black (E) gene and not her red (e) gene.

Grulla.
A grulla is basically a black dun, so you want to breed to a dun that has no agouti (aa). You run the possibility of a red dun if your mare is (Ee) for color if she is bred to a red dun. If you breed to a bay dun you may get a bay dun if the sire passes his agouti.
Best bet would be to breed to a grulla (black based) and hope he is homozygous for color (EE) and dun to assure getting a grulla foal. If either your mare or the sire are heterozygous for color (Ee) you could get a red based foal. Same if your mare is heterozygous for color (Ee) and the sire is a red (ee) dun, you could get a red dun.

Places that test for color can test for Extension (E and e), Agouti (A and a) and Cream (Cr and cr). This color test or meticulous color records can help you determine which horses are homo/hetero-zygous for what. Currently, there is no test for dun.

[Laura S]

Heidi...wow, where did you learn all that? Color is really interesting! :D

[motorgypsy]

Yup
A true perlino with two agouti genes will give you buckskin from a black mare

A true black grulla (black plus dun no agouti) that is homozygous for both black and dun will give you grulla but the only way you'll know this is from offspring. We have a grulla stallion but we don't think he is homozygous for dun but he probably is for black because he threw a bay from a bay mare and a light golden buckskin coloed dun from a bay mare. Be aware that there are horses labeled grulla who are really black bays with the sooty/smutty gene so they will still throw bay duns rather than grullas.

Now you can get perlino plus dun but I don't know of any but we have a mare whose grandson is a dunalino - palomino plus dun who would give some interesting colors. Don't know if he has been gelded or not. His name is Principe de Dinastia or something very close to that. He is a capuchino son.


Isn't color fun!!

[Mona Lisa]

Hey all,

This might not affect the outcome at out but...

Melusina's sire Contra-Sucesor was a chestnut. His sire Contra-quiensalga I am almost 100% sure was grey as his sire Contrapunto was.

From looking at pasoregistry she has produced 1 bay, 1 black, and 2 chestnut.


Mona

[PasoVicki]

If Melusina had a gray gene, she would be showing gray by now. Unless she's showing gray, there's no need to consider gray as a possibility (unless the stud is gray, of course).

If she's had a chestnut foal, she isn't homogenous for black . . . which just means (see Heidi's posts) that there are more possibilities, depending on the color genes of the stud. Palomino would be a 50/50 shot with a cremello stud who doesn't carry an agouti gene.

[pasorider]

I don't know for sure on all of her foals, but one of her foals, a 3 yr. old filly that is showing chestnut on the reg. is now black, and of course Viseaux, my 3 month old foal isn't reg. yet but is black like his dam. At least I think, as he is so sunbleached and still so splotchy that I sometimes wonder if he will ever go one color or the other. He has coal black splotches, but most of his body is so bleached out, he almost looks grulla, his face has about 3 tones to it, but around the eyes and nose he is almost a smokey black, not real black but a greyish black.

[Heidi]

Heidi...wow, where did you learn all that? Color is really interesting! :D
EquineColor.com
I went there and learned, it took me a while to get it straight in my head, but it was very interesting. The best description I got about color genetics is to think of it as either file folders or a high-rise building.

Each file folder has two pieces of paper.
Each floor of the high rise has two rooms, tenants either have a light on, or don't have a light on.
Each 'pair' in the folder/floor represents one genetic combination, received from the sire and mare. Every horse had every gene available...what makes the difference, is if the papers in the folder say "yes, be gray" or "no, be not gray"...or the floors of the building have lights on or not, saying "yes, be this" or "no, not be this".

The REASON I went to Equine Color, was I wanted to know WHY my filly is the only buckskin out of 5 pairings of the same stud/mare that resulted in all other full siblings being palomino.
Sire is Perlino.
Mare is chestnut (red).

I learned the dam is ee and the Perlino was Ee, and he just happened to pass his e more often than the E he gave to my Q.
Heidi

*am I the only one that thinks the software preventing me from saying dam <-- that is actually .d.a.m. the descriptive word commonly used to represent the mother horse, is dumb?

[Laura S]

LOL, I was wondering why it kept saying dang. I just thought it was a word for the d.a.m. that I had never heard before!!

I'm going to look at equinecolor.com, it is really confusing, but interesting! Thanks Heidi. :D

[motorgypsy]

So you can see that your mare has the potential for just about any color you want since she's carrying the red gene and the black gene. Have fun!!

[LynnG]

if it makes a difference, Contra-Successor was chestnut.

[Terry Wallace]

If you want guranteed color...then breed to a cremello or perlino and you WILL get it. You are guaranteed one dilution gene that way... that is how you can get a buckskin ... very good chance. You will need a dun to get dun factor...but some perlinos and crmellos CAN have dun factor...you just can't really SEE it on them.

[cowboy ed]

why dont you just buy one that is the color you want? that is a lot easier, and no more costly in the long run! :D

[Terry Wallace]

Ed has a valid point...BUY what you like. It will be cheaper in the long run.
There are some cremellos and perlinos (breeding stallions) ...but be ware that many are kept entire "just because" they are double dilutes, and not neccessarily because they are stallion material. Be sure to evaluate confo on them...JMO

[pasorider]

Cowboy Ed,
You are right that I should buy for the color I want--It is just that I like my mare and her disposition so much, and since I have 3 horses that are getting age on them that I need to ride ( two are geldings) and now that my husband can't ride anymore, I just don't have time to ride them all. I think I will sell his gelding, breed my mare again in a year or two, then I will have Viseaux to start in a couple of yrs, but Mela will still be doing something ( raising a baby). Taceaux ( my gelding) is 20 now and will live out his retirement at my sons in Mo. when I decide to retire him, which I hope not for another 5 yrs or so. He still is in perfect health and condition, and I hope he can help me show Viseaux the ropes when he is old enough.
If I had any brains, I would sell Viseaux as a weanling, sell my husbands gelding, keep Mela and Taceaux till they retire, then buy another well broke one to ride, but that would be the sensible thing to do, and I just get so attached to my horses that I hate to sell any of them, especially ones that I raise.

[motorgypsy]

We're the same way. We spent every day for months and months shopping for the paso finos that were perfect for us, went to many many shows, rode hundreds of paso finos, so if we want a younger version of the ones we finally selected it is easier to breed the ones we know we really like.

But an advantage of buying an older horse that you aren't attached to is that you can resell it without such trauma!

And another thing about selling paso finos is that they seem to get so attached to each other. Our minis don't seem to do that as much - at least not as quickly. We moved Chinook over to a boarding barn with pasture leaving Adriel with SloughP and everytime we bring the trailer home Adriel still calls for Chinook and it's been a month or more. :roll: :roll: :roll: