Time to tell.... I guess.

[Tami Pinell]

I guess now is as good a time to tell what has happened and why I fell off of the face of the BB world. For years - many, many years I have read about, watched, and have used round pens. I believe that they are a valuable assest to every horsemen. The positives about them abound everywhere. Not until very recently have I become obsesessed with the NEGATIVES of them and their different types. My venture is no where ready to be discussed but the reason for my obsession started when I "thought" I had a "safe" environment for my multi-national champion stallion - Casanova Sin Par. To make this short and sweet (if one can look at it that way) - It took less than two minutes for a perfectly healthy stallion to be on the brink of having to be put to sleep. As most stallions behave when mares are in heat - he was traveling up and down his corral made of round pen panels when all of the sudden his lower face (cheek bones down to lips) were trapped between two of the panels. Now Cas is a small (pony) sized equine - so this ordeal did not just trap his lower jaw - the panels scissored his enitre lower face. Upon the pain, he pulled back - dragging 5 full 12' panels with him. He moved these panels that were fixed to his outdoor shed (stall), detaching them from the stall and relocating all of them approximately 10 feet before he managed to free himself. The extent of the damage is undescribable without great thought - this horse would NEVER be able to eat again for it broke off his entire upper jaw and distorted it to the degree that he would never be able to bite. Durning this process, his left hind pastern was strained to such a degree that major ligaments were torn requiring him to have surgery so he will be able to walk. Casanova has been at VATech since this happened, the remarkable vets have been able to put him back to a guarded condition where he may be able to live a pain free life with managed care. They have worked to do what they have never done before there (repair his face) and they have fused his pastern (no it is nothing as bad as Barbaros in the leg but the face is a different topic totally). He will stay there until he is stable enough to come home (however long that may need to take).
For those of you that love your round pen - do look into the safety caps for the top rail and near the gate. I was extremely shocked when I was told the number of horses that have come to VATech with lower jaw breaks and front leg breaks and damage from round pens. No where have I read in books or magazines, even on the net, the tragic effects of roundpens - never in my wildest dreams did I every think a roundpen could have done what it did to Cas. Please do be careful folks - I truely thought he was safe and with ordinary vets, I would have had to plant Cas in my yard. Now I will have the added work of a disabled horse to take care of instead if he can pull through all of this - two major surgeries in 2.5 weeks.....
If I do not answer emails or this board - I am swamped - A whole new section of the barn is going up and Casanova will have a brand new stall when he finally get home.
Prayers are all I want.
Tami

[Linda Y]

Holy sweet Jesus! :shock:
Tami, I am SO sorry for you. I will be praying very hard for Cas to make as full a recovery as possible. And for the vets that are obviously caring for him so well.
:cry:

[CarolU]

Oh Tammi, that is terrible. I am so sorry and he is definately in my prayers - all fingers and toes crossed for him.

It never ceases to amaze me the ways horses find to hurt themselves. For people looking at panels, there are also pannels designed with continuous top rails without the \/ between them just to avoid this type of accident. I don't like usuing panels as regular corals, I just don't feel they are strong enough for unsupervised horses. But, I'll be perfectly honest, horses break legs in welded pipe post/rail corals, tear off legs in wire, break through wood and vinyl. Even smooth concrete they can kick or abrade off skin. There really is no such thing as a totally safe environment.

All you can do is try to make the environment for your horse as safe as possible - and then know that you've done everything you can and TRY not to worry too much.

Manure happens. :roll:

[Mellifluous]

Plenty of prayers for you coming from Homer!


I am glad that things are looking up for Cas.

[Tracey]

Oh, wow, so sorry for him and you. Will be praying for sure. I do not understand where he got his face/head stuck? Looking at mine, I can't picture it. I don't leave mine in there when we aren't working or riding them. But when we got the mph last year I had him tied to a rail and he tried to go over when I led another horse away! Scared me.
I will keep you guys in my thoughts, give us an update when you can!

[motorgypsy]

That is HORRENDOUS!!! They truly are accidents waiting to happen. We're so sorry Tammy and wish him a rapid and complete recovery.

[Laura S]

That is so terrible. I am so sorry. I have been wanting a round pen lately, but think I will change my mind. Maybe a home-made wooden one?? A friend of mine recently just had a yearling break it's neck because he got his head stuck between two panels.

I will keep your horse in my thoughts. It is so aweful when they get so seriously hurt like that! :cry:

[pasorider]

Prayers are going out for both of you. Sure hope the operations go well.

[appyday]

Tami when you told me this on the phone today I was in total shock..I will sure look at round pens differently..

[ErinC]

WOW
Hugs to you!

and many prayers! to come! for sure.

[PasoVicki]

How horrible! I can't even imagine seeing something like that happen . . . or seeing the aftermath/injuries. As soon as the sun comes up tomorrow, I think I need to walk around all the corrals and pens and look for hazards (again).

[Heidi]

Casanova and you will certainly be in my thoughts and prayers.

I lost a horse in 2004 to my pipe panel fencing.
I had lost Poquita in May (Peruvian with DSLD complications) and was given a beautiful young Paso mare in early June. Dulcinea was very sweet, as her name implied.

In September, my step dad passed away and Kenny and I flew across the country to help Mom. My neighbor (and friend) took care of our cats and Dulcinea while we were gone. She loves our animals and I love hers. We trade care back and forth...

Anyhow, she stopped by one morning before work to do the chores and heard a noise out back. She saw Dulcinea hanging by a front pastern from a "V" of two panels.

She ran to Dulcinea, who didn't struggle, but she groaned and looked at her to 'please help her' and Danyell ran to the neighbors' and got them up and then ran to the next neighbors' who is a vet tech and all four returned to help Dulcinea. Vet tech told Danyell to go inside and call my vet, then call me in California. When she reached me, I did my best to calm her down and assure her this wasn't her fault and have the vet call me when she had finished.

That was the longest amount of time in my life! ...but I felt that each minute that passed meant Dulcinea had a chance and wasn't being put down.

When the vet called me, she said there were no broken bones, only a small cut, but she was lame from being caught. She didn't feel Dulcinea had been 'trapped' very long, as the gouges in the dirt from her R side legs weren't very deep and she had scraped off the hair from the insides of her untrapped legs against the panels, but hadn't drawn blood. She told me to stay and help my mother and that Dulcinea should be just fine.

Well, she wasn't fine.
It turns out that while she was trapped and struggling she had dumped too much waste material into her bloodstream and her kidneys were shutting down. Dulcinea was referred to UGA and her prognosis wasn't good. After a night of fluids to try to jumpstart her kidneys...there wasn't much progress and she developed acute laminitis. Can't give her meds because of the kidneys, can't NOT give her meds because of the pain of laminitis. They recommended I let her go.

I returned from my funeral trip to California to pick up a halter, rope and a hank of hair.

Kenny will be welding tabs to the tops of our panels to prevent anything from getting trapped in the "V" again.
Heidi
Dulcinea in August, 2004.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/78SilvAnniv/bd.jpg

[motorgypsy]

WOW - I'm putting a hot wire in front of my roundpen so they can't get to it. That's so terrible. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Laura S]

Heidi that is so terrible. I can't imagine what you went thru. I am definately not getting a metal round pen, doesn't sound like it's worth it and even though accidents don't happen lots of times, I would just worry all the time.

[Barbwire]

Tami, I am very sorry to hear this news. I hope your poor boy gets better fast and heals with no complications. Please keep us updated on his progress. http://www.jammerbabe.com/flotilla/images/smiles/grouphug2.gif

[Cam]

How awful. I really think round pens were intended to be used for supervised activities even though I used one last summer for a few weeks as a holding pen to keep a new horse separated. Fortunately no mishaps for me although I have seen a horse cast himself in one and a foal strangle itself. I was thinking they would be safer if lined on the inside with non climb horse fence...more solid barrier than the non climb alone, but with less risk of injury. Hoping for the best for Cas.

[Brigitte]

That is just terrible!! So sorry to hear that :(

[LynnG]

I hope Cas makes as complete of a recovery as he can and can come back home to you as soon as he is aptly able to.

[Terry Wallace]

That is a horrible thing to happen...I must ask...are your round pen panels "rounded" on the corners? Leaving a "V" at every panel end (where the panles meet) ?
Mine are square at the top...no "V" to hang hoof or head into...


I hope he recovers and does well.... This must be costing you a fortune, let alone the pain for the horse.... YIKES... ;-)

[motorgypsy]

I know RFD TV advertises a "no catch" roundpen panel but I've never seen them around here????

[Trudy]

We had a round pen similar to one Heidi showed. I heard a noise in the arena one day and a mare had reared up and caught her foot in where the gate attached. Thank goodness she was a calm mare and was hanging there. Her foot was so tight I was unable to unhook the chain but my husband heard me calling for him and had to cut the chain to release her. She had a slight limp for a few days but another horse would probably have fought it and broke a leg. All our panels had that v. we got rid of it and have one now where there is no place they can get caught. so sorry for both of you and what you are going thru and have gone thru.

[Helene]

I am so sorry...and hope Cas can recover. My thoughts are with him and you....

[Terry Wallace]

It would probably be prudent to mention here, that round pen panels are not for housing horses. Round pen panels are designed to bend easily if a horse crashes into them. They are not the same guage or design as corral panels. They are weaker and will flex in the centers. They are cheaper in cost than corral panels.

Of course if you use regular corral panels to build a round pen..then you would have a heavier guage panel, with much less "give".

Tami..do you have photos of Cas recovering? Did they have to pin & plate the jaw? What is the estimate of how long it will take to heal?
How is he doing today?

[Pasogirlz]

OMG, that is a heart wrenching story. Many prayers for Cas going out.

And Hiedi, that is also an aweful story. :( I'm so sorry for your loss.

[Terry Wallace]

MG's what is a no-catch round pen?

[Heidi]

MG's what is a no-catch round pen?
I think it would be one with square corners and no "V"s to catch a leg or face...?

I've also heard of a young horse who broke its' lower jaw when it stuck its head through the pipes, began mouthing the bar just below and when spooked it tried to pull its head back through but it broke its jaw on that lower pipe.
h

[TrueStepPaso]

That is heartbreaking......absolutely horrifying. I don't know how I would ever handle such an event....I am SO sorry. I pray for strength to you, and healing to Cas....I'm just so, so sorry......

[Tami Pinell]

The last call I have recieved was from Dr. Eddie - she is the vet that saw Cas the day he went in. They are going to take Xrays of his face to see how far the healing has progressed with a maybe on wire removal in the jaw and the cast was lowered due to a tendon pressure in which they have worked on and he is doing better with it. They are hoping to remove the hard case this week and put him in a less supportive one so the bones will have to bear a little load. To answer a couple of questions - the round pen is actually "old" corral panels that were "safe for temporary corraling", they are very, very old (bought in 1996). They do have the rounded corners and have a space and are pinned, not chained. As far as pictures of Cas - NO. This is not something I wish to have a photo rememberance of - Xrays of the damage - which show more than a snapshot - YES. Both before and after surgery of the upper jaw and of the pastern. Not a pretty sight either. I have not posted them for I was given them as a friend and have not recieved (have not asked for) permission to publish them. I'm not ready to go into that type of detail yet. As far as the setting of the upper jaw - the break is in the thinnest part of the upper jaw below the cheek bones and plates or screws could be used. With lots of thought and great inovative stuff - Cas has the most elabroate set of orthodontics I've ever seen and it seems to be working well in stablizing the bone. They used the ortho and his teeth to support his break. The worst thing I believe I will have to watch for in the future is the possiblity of one of his molars dying and he will need extrememly good dental care for the teeth do no line up. (This is not a concern to me - just good horse up keep and no simple teeth floating job). The pastern should fuse and he should be able to move and bear load without pain - which concerns me more, pain management is a long term, tricky thing and knowing Cas, it would kill him not to be able to get out of his stall. Through out this, Cas has lost a lot of weight, not a problem either for he is slowly coming back and there was no reason to push weight on a bad leg and sore teeth. He is enjoying his sugar cubes and the constant attention they give him.
Now to brag on well trained paso finos and stallions to boot - Once again, I am being told by everyone involved from attendings to students just how well mannered, how co-operative, and who brave Cas is - they enjoy working with a stallion that will stand like a rock for an Xray - will stay laying down when told to even coming out of surgery - and how he tries to let "them" know when something is just not right (when his cathader was infected is a story in itself and letting Dr. Berry know when there was a sore under his cast - he really "tries" to talk with them). I am very proud of this little stallion - his my buddy and my best friend and it makes me swell with pride when he lives up to the stories I have told friends - he is one extraordinary paso - so when you look at my Avartar, see if you can tell what he is talking about there - he really thinks he is human!
Got to run again - Barn is going up (slowly).

[Terry Wallace]

Thanks a lot for the update..so glad to hear he is doing better and better...
What a tough ordeal to go through....

Will he be months in the hospital yet?

[motorgypsy]

The way the panels are constructed there are no places to capture head, legs, halter, fly mask etc. I'm sure it is pricey though but probabaly worth it. I'm thinking they are made for someone like John Lyons. One of the bigtime trainers.

[Terry Wallace]

Sooo..they are solid walled panels? No pipes?

[motorgypsy]

No they are pipes. I didn't really pay a lot of attention - must have been on the computer! :roll: :roll: But I've seen them advertised several times. Gotta pay better attention.

Tami please keep us posted. One day at a time!!!

[Andrea G.]

Oh Tami - I just read this post tonight - I am so sorry for what you and Cas are going through. You really have been through sooo much - my heart aches for the two of you. Praying for a speedy recovering for Cas and that he will be home soon.

[jodiTowne]

Tami...how horrible!! Prayers are headed your way!!

[Jaci]

We take the brackets off that the drop pins go in and then either use radiator clips or butterfly clamps to hold the pannels together... That makes the v so that a leg won't go down in it.

Someone said that round pens aren't to be used for holding pens... I'm sorry but this could happen if you were working a horse that got scared and decided to leave... If a pen isn't safe enough to house a horse then you definately shouldn't be working one in it...

Tami, I will visualize your horse well and healed...

To the other lady... I am sorry that you lost your sweet mare...

Jaci

[motorgypsy]

Jaci Thanks for the great idea!

[hast]

I'm so sorry he was hurt...

I too have bad experience of the roundpen panels. My friend made temporary stalls of them. I kept telling them that Michico could't be left alone in the "stall" but he was there all summer long and I was often told how well he did -I know, but I also know my horse. One day a delivery truck that passed him was deadly scary and he tried to get away... that exact delivery truck had passed several times a week all summer long. I got a phone call saying that they thought he had broken his leg and the vet was on his way. It wasn't really broken, he had a hairline fracture that completely healed after a long, long time so he's fine again. I will NEVER again go against better judgement... I know my horse and knew he wasn't safe in that environment.

[Carol Nelson]

Tami...I've been following this post...I am just so sorry that that happened to Cas. I hope he is well on his way to healing...I can surely understand why you don't want photos to remember it by...and I have my own "horror" story to tell about such panels, although it turned out all right.
Our colt, Devante, decided one day he wanted to go over the panels to visit some mares in an adjoining pen. When we found him, he was limping and his front leg was swollen. There were two scrape marks on either side of his leg, and one long superficial cut down the back of his fetlock. The blood and hair on the V between the panels told the story. The cut was from the pin which had a sharp point on it, and he had probably cut his leg pulling it out of the V. He'd gotten himself out, and there were no fractures, nor cut tendons, but he was a pretty sore little dude. Now six months later, you would never known he'd been hurt but that front leg will probably always be a little larger than the other one.
This leg matches his daddy's, same side. Red caught his front leg in a blanket bar on the outside of a Dutch door on his stall...going after a filly walking down the barn aisle. He did this as a yearling and yet went on to show...but still has a splint to show for it. Half doors on stalls...I'm sure a lot of stories can be told about those also.

[Candice Burger]

:cry: :cry:

My goodness! My thoughts are with you Tami. Casanova is blessed to have you as his owner.

I have to say reading all of this I wonder when piped panels were the replacement for a "real" roundpen? I keep thinking how John Lyons popularized pipe paneled pens and me thinking how dangerous they were. It's great for a horse that is 150% calm at all times, but when is that? I grew up knowing that the only "safe" roundpen was one that was:

Anchored in the ground securely; would not move when hit.
Had solid facing from the ground to about 3-4 feet to prevent legs or feet getting caught.
Had narrow spacing above that so that no hoof, leg, or face could be wedged in, but allowed a rider to escape if they had to. Maybe 2-4 inch spacing, but definitely too narrow for a hoof to get caught.
Was high enough to discourage jumping over the panel.
Was made out of material that had some give to take in force but would not give into it--wood or the like not concrete or metal.
Had a top design so that a horse would slide off instead of getting hung.
Had the panels flushed up, the edges rounded off, the panels bolted down all the way through (not screwed in partially).
Has an offset so that a rider's knees aren't hit when riding.
If necessary, can tie or hobble a horse in the pen with relative safety.

I've panels now that I use for temp feeding pens but could not envision them as a roundpen format even though I've seen plenty of videos, ads and clinicians "endorsing" preifert panels for roundpens. The panels are chained flush together, are 7 feet high, have ox-bow piping on the corners, yet because they are not secure and have opening for legs and heads, I don't have the guts to use them but for temporary purposes. Yet when I see some of these clinicians working at their ranch--it's the type of traditional round pen. I've also noticed that allot of these clinicians do whatever they can in these videos to keep the horse "off" the panels.

I'm just wondering out loud about all of this, because I don't know when the message got out about pipe panels being the replacement for a more traditional working pen. Does anyone know about how these panels became the norm?

Al thought I was crazy for not using the panels as a round pen, but when I told him all of the stories of horses hurting or killing themselves in "safe" stalls, in horse trailers, in fencing, etc. he began to see my point. Pasos seem particularly prone for accidents because they will investigate everything with their heads, noses, and are sticking their feet everywhere. :roll:

Again, I'm so sad to hear about Casanova and miracles do happen--I've seen plenty of that too. It sounds like your are his miracle Tami. {{{HUGS}}} and positive thoughts your way.

[Heidi]

Does anyone know about how these panels became the norm?
Price. Time/effort to set up.

[Jaci]

[quote="Candice Burger"] Does anyone know about how these panels became the norm?quote]

The pannels that you are talking about are basically stock pannels. We used to call them powder river pannels and they were used to take out on pasture and open range and set up for branding, castration and giving shots. They are handy and easy to carry...

John Lyons used them at his clinics because most people didn't have anything else and people couldn't see through the solid ones.

His first videos were shot at a friend of mines place and she has a very nice, safe round pen... which is one of the reasons that John wanted to use it.

Jaci

[Candice Burger]

Right Jaci, that's what I grew up calling them "stock panels" or "cattle panels", mostly used for moving stock around--usually light weight enough and portable enough to create a temporary handling chute or such. You'd break them down and put them up as needed in any configuration for the job at hand.

I never, in my wildest imaginations, would think that I would see them used as permanent solutions for round pens, catch pens, stalls, etc. Even fair grounds use something more substantial and they still aren't the best. I've had horses pull down temporary stalls like dominos at some fair grounds. It got to a point that we would inspect the stall before unloading horses and everyone was prepared with at least hammer, nails, saw, and a fencing tool to pull out staples and nails.

So, goes back to what I'm trying to figure out. Somehow these temp panels replaced solid fixtures and somehow people have been sent the message that they are safe alternatives. I'm wondering how this came to be.

I've yet to see a video tape of a clinician using these panels talk about the pros/cons and the danger of using them on a permanent basis. I do hear while they are using panels to "work your horses in the safest environment". What they don't say is given the choice they'd be working some of those horses in a traditional round pen setting not in stock panels. They are not to blame for the trend, but leaving off the caveat of what they consider "safe" certainly implies that because they are using temp panels for a weekend clinic that it's "OK" for most situations. Lots of people just oodle over these guys and seeing them use stock panels and some endorsing panels (selling them on their websites) as the answer for a roundpen boggles my mind.

Like I said I couldn't believe it when I started hearing it years ago and I still don't. I've had to unhang enough horses and pull apart enough panels (and I'm sure they have too) to know better. There's enough people attending these clinics to be in a relatively controlled environment. I've seen people placed along the panels to keep the horses off of them. But I work alone with no one around to spook a horse off of a panel, let alone try to get the help I needed if one got caught. Something to think about when watching these clinician tapes.

What bothers me most? The cost of buying these panels is not that much cheaper than buying #1 grade material to build a good, permanent structure. A "good" metal piped panel made out of quality material, welded/bonded by a craftsman, with safety features and top grade paint ain't cheap.

I've got bunches of panels and I love them for what I use them for. They cost me a pretty penny though--so much so, that I could have built one heck of a roundpen for the money I have in the panels. I've gone to these websites of most clinicians that are selling these panels for round pen setups. If someone went to Home Depot or Lowe's they'd figure out right quick that they aren't saving allot of money buying panels. They'd have a much safer place to work a horse for little more cost and labor.

Maybe I've been around too long not to think that it was a horse that defined Murphy's law.

[motorgypsy]

Candice - I think Murphy WAS a horse!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Tami Pinell]

Candice - I want to add to this. The structures that Casanova and his fellow stablemates (stallions) are in are panels because they "are temporary". The stallion fencing is down for reconstruction and split-rail with hot tape fencing will be going up. There is no need in putting up a nice fence when a backhoe will have to take it down to run water and electric to each stallion stall in each pen and then do grade work. This is a lengthy job and like most horse people - I looked for the "safest" temporary horse fencing I could find and the panels were the best for my situation. Mind you it was my second choice after electric fencing until the solar box quit and two stallions got together over my draft mare (not a pretty sight!) I believe that these panels are very useful for temporary housing if used for individual equines, I have even seen them put up on a more permanant basis using wooden post or steel post. The danger is how they go together. If a horse is going to climb a wall it does not matter what the wall is made of - they will try it. Also on another note - some people do not want a permanant round pen. Their situation may be that they cannot afford the added land taxes of another structure or they do not own the land they are on, etc. There are many reasons for not building "the perfect" round pen, if there is such a thing. I have been looking and asking people that have panel round pens and taking notes. I have compiled a lot of great ideas - when I'm done I will publish them for all to see and use. I think we all need to stop and remember - there are many ways to do things, not all are good, not all are bad, and every once in awhile there is a great way of doing things. Coral panels are in this category. And BTW - here a stock panel and cattle panel is a totally different thing ( a wire looking panel that is either 16 or 20 foot in length and they cannot stand on their own).
PS: I have been told that Cas gets to come home in about a week and a half..... :D

[Heidi]

I have been told that Cas gets to come home in about a week and a half..... :D
Yea! That is great news. 8-)

[motorgypsy]

That is such great news!!!!