An interesting...and sickening...article [Archive]

Linda Y

08-29-2006, 02:15 AM

And in that same vein, this was posted on another list I am on...

This was sent to me by a friend. Thought some of you might like to read it. I have heard about this mess already. It looks like the TWH industry is going to win another round.

Harold

Dear Friend of the Sound Horse,

*As you are probably already aware, there have been
conflicts this week at the TWH Celebration, between NHSC DQPs and the USDA
VMOs assigned to ensure that sore horses are not allowed to be shown.
These conflicts have led to mob behavior, threats against USDA
personnel, and ultimately, the departure of those personnel from the
showgrounds on Friday August 25th out of concern that Tennessee
Highway Patrol would not be able to provide them adequate protection.

*It has been rumored that USDA personnel may be instructed by their superiors to either not attend the remainder of theCelebration, or to back off on their insistence on full and proper
enforcement.

*Pressure for this move has been coming from the Walking Horse industry and those members of Congress close to the industry. We are hearing that some efforts to urge the Secretary of Agriculture to pull the USDA from the Celebration will be made as early as this
Monday, August 28, 2006.

*It is imperative that all sound horse owners contact key Administration
and elected officials on Monday to tell them that the USDA should be
allowed to do its job, and oversee the inspections at the Celebration.

------------
Testing this to see it it will let me post this part...I keep getting an error message...

Linda Y

08-29-2006, 02:17 AM

And here is the rest of the post if it will let me do it...ok, it won't, so let's try this part...

President Bush may be hearing from some in the big lick WH industry, and
needs to hear from us, too. Secretary of Agriculture Mike Johanns,
Animal Care Administrator Dr. Ron DeHaven and Animal Care Deputy
Administrator Chester Gipson are responsible for administering the
USDAs Horse Protection Program.

Sens. Frist and Alexander of TN are receiving a great deal of pressure
from the WH industry. Rep. Gordon of TN is an old friend of the industry, but needs to hear of your opposition to interference with USDA enforcement efforts. Rep. Harold Ford, Jr. of TN is a Democrat running for Frists Senate seat, and we believe has recently
gotten involved in this issue on behalf of the industry in hopes of attracting statewide votes.

You should also copy your letter to your own U.S. representative and 2
U.S. Senators to find their contact information, visit www.congress.org and type your zip code in the box on the left.

Linda Y

08-29-2006, 02:23 AM

OK, I tried all I could do to get the sample letter to post, and it kept telling me it was unacceptable. I have no idea what to do. If anyone wants it, email me yorkhrse at earthlink dot net

ASB.Immortality

08-29-2006, 02:35 AM

The Celebration was not shut down last weekend like you would think it would be shut down. Two classes did go in and compete then the trainers got highly upset (I would have been upset too) & did not allow anyone to show in any other classes. Most that show are with trainers, without them there pretty much is no show. Our Breeder Racking trainer also does Walking Horses and is up there. Reason: After horses had already passed through DQP, the Govt shows and turns 17 two year olds down.

There is no uniform way that the inspections are done and most that handle the inspecting have no horse knowledge. We have seen cases where they have stood there picking at a horse's foot for over 20 minutes. Then taking their thumb (not the flat part but the nail) and rubbing the tar out of the ankle until the horse moves. That is what they are calling sore. That is why the trainers and owners are in a uproar. Lots have started video taping the inspections to show what is being done. It is just a money game. Anything to get money.

I don't have a lot of time tonight to go into this so I will come back to it tomorrow when I have more time and explain more. I didn't even read that article. I am sure it says the say stupid things that people writing for 30 years or more about the TWH. Most of the information in the those articles is so outdated it is hilarious.

Beth Worden

08-29-2006, 12:12 PM

CarolU

08-29-2006, 12:59 PM

I agree with you Beth. I always come home from Nationals so depressed by all the abuse I see (and don't see) there, that I've decided not to 'support' it any longer by attending. Including Ed, seeing horses swathed in wraps and linement, standing in ice buckets, and bleeding noses and chins.

I've decided to go a different direction, a humane direction with my horses. I know the abuse will still go on, but I don't have to be any part of it.

I'm with you Beth - an uber-horselover.

ASB.Immortality

08-29-2006, 01:29 PM

A true story - I was there, and it is hard to relate to this day..Back in the early 70's we had an all TWH show at the NYS fairgrounds. It was a pointed show and many of the top TWH horses were there to compete. A class of "padded" horses were in the arena. SUddendly I SAW the front hoof of a horse go flying through the air. I heard a scream that I will never forget - it was this young 4 year old colt that lost his foot. I have never heard a horse make this sound before or after. The colt was put down right there in the ring.

A hue and cry went up through NYS that said it absolutely would not have shows of any kind with padded horse. Indeed there were a couple years wher there were NO TWH shows allowed in NYS. This state had stuck to it's guns. NO PADDED TWH shows here - NONE.

I believe that the other states are trying, but so many of these horses are owned by the politicians that run the southern states!!! They have the spineless AG department in their pockets. I know of what I speak. I have very close friends in the TWH community who LOVE their horses and would never harm them. I belong to the NYS plantation Horse Walking Club. And the "Harold" in your letter is Harold Rudnick who has worked since 1965 to ban padded horses/sored horse owners and trainers.

Be careful Paso FIno folks - when I start hearing about "higher hock action", quicker step, etc. I get VERY worried for our show horses. It is already happening and we need to be diligent. On your poll , "why you will not attend the Nationals?" I have no desire to watch faster hock action and all that goes with it.

There - I said it OUT LOUD and now let the flogging begin.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and no can change them. If you don't like the padded horse & think it is cruel, don't go watch them & do like everyone else that doesn't like them & lobby to have something done with them. It doesn't bother me in the least little bit. I LIKE the big lick horse. I LIKE the padded horses. My horses are PADDED. If they get outlawed so be it. There will be people like me standing on the other side lobbying to keep it going. I know what is done with my horses and I know where I stand. My horses aren't sore, they aren't cripple. I have one that is 16 and sound as dollar. Been on pads all of his life. More than likely will be for a few more years until he is totally retired.

Just because a horse is padded does not mean it is sore. But that is where the ignorance shows through. People just want to complain about what they see and not learn anything.

I have heard through the grapevine that if something like that does happen you will see a vast decrease in the TWH population. You can hazard a guess as to what will happen. I figure it is mostly talk but it will happen to some. These horses (in most cases) can not go from a big time show horse to make a good pleasure horse. They could probably make companions but most of these horses have been stalled all their lives with some turn out time.

On the Paso thing.. fromt he outside looking is and knowing what a sore horse or pressure shod horse looks like, I would have to say a lot of your fino horses are pressure trimmed. Just a barefoot version od pressure shoeing. The liniment and wraps... more than likely nothing (as in most cases) but could be something. Lots of horses are wrapped and stand.

And your story about the hoof.. that was the EARLY 1970s. We are way past that. If I remember correctly we are in 2006. Things have changed. But some people can't see that with their blinders on. I have been into showing since the early 90s, and I can't say I have ever seeing or even heard about something like that happening and we are at a show somewhere almost evey weekend from March through November. As before though... believe whatever you want too even if it isn't true and I will believe what I know for fact. I have horses in that ring and have had for years so I DO know what goes on.

Beth Worden

08-29-2006, 01:50 PM

ABS - I agree that not all padded horses are sored. No argument there. My opinion of pads is not relevent to this board. Lots of boards to debate this topic out there.

As for pasos not being sored...this is something I DO know about. First hand. It IS happening.

As for a decrease in TWH horses - I don't think so. We ignorant Northerners ride em on the trail and love them. I would say that the majority of the trail riding/camping horses that frequent our trail systems up here are either full TWH or at least part. We all ride gaiting horses and the TWH with it's cool head and smooth ride is hard to beat. I love my pasos but they are not the majority not to mention the Icelandics.

We agree to disagree on some points.

CarolU

08-29-2006, 01:56 PM

I don't know Starr. I think if they can't show with padded feet, they will still train and show with natural feet. The Arabians seem to show lots of height and animation with normal feet. I think it will change the shows, not ellimante them. There will still the same amount of money and prestige to be had if they change the rules across the board for everyone.

I personally feel that pads look sad, but the harnesses the horses live in and broken tails are heartbreaking. I know I wouldn't want to live all trussed up like that, confined to a stall, with no 'normal' or 'natural' time to just be a horse. I think this will be a thing of the past when PETA and other groups get going. Millions of people are upset about laying hens confined to a cage 24/7. They're not upset about these horses, only because they don't know about them.

Mellifluous

08-29-2006, 02:11 PM

Ok -

so we agree, most of the articles written about sore TWH are based outdated information.

Now, I do not for one second believe that all of the padded horses of today are not sored. I think that there is a mixed bag, but many of the same people who were in the business then are still operating now, as are their understudies who learned these techniques. Times have changed and so have the methods. I guess you could say that soring has gone underground and is much harder to detect. People who sore have gotten more creative with their tricks of the trade. New soring "technologies" have emerged and spreading through the ranks. There are still some old school people out there, they just leave their horses on the trailer when the DQPs show up. The more savvy folks can go out and and show without fear of discovery.

Maybe someone needs to research modern soring methods and write an article that is more contemporary and not so easily dismissed.

As far as padded walking horses go, it is not my bag, I like my little funny moving ponies with natural tails and gait. ;-) It is a shame that our show ring has many similar artificial practices that are just as bad yet defended as "culture."

And thats all I have to say about that.

Mellifluous

08-29-2006, 02:16 PM

I personally feel that pads look sad, but the harnesses the horses live in and broken tails are heartbreaking. I know I wouldn't want to live all trussed up like that, confined to a stall, with no 'normal' or 'natural' time to just be a horse. I think this will be a thing of the past when PETA and other groups get going. Millions of people are upset about laying hens confined to a cage 24/7. They're not upset about these horses, only because they don't know about them.

I think it is ASBs, not TWH that have to wear the tailsets. And the stall confinement seems to come with the majority of "show" horses of all breeds.

I dread the day that PETA sets their sights on horse owners. They are waaaaaaay to extreme of an organization. They would classify me as being cruel just for riding my horse. No thanks, keep PETA away!

CarolU

08-29-2006, 02:29 PM

Oh, I agree PETA is extreme, but there are many other animal rights organizations that organize and push for change. Not all of it has been bad, even PETA has done things that helped many animals, like limiting research using animals to research that hadn't already been done before, and requiring anesthesia during studies that cause pain. I fully agree with these changes. The use of laboratory animals is now tightly regulated where before they could - and did - use pets that had been stolen.

ASB.Immortality

08-29-2006, 02:34 PM

...but the harnesses the horses live in and broken tails are heartbreaking.

That is where there should be a learning process before you can say that you are for against something. That don't wear harneses and the tails are NOT broken. The "harness" as you call it, isn't a harness but a tail set and it is worn loosely only a few days before the show. They don't live in them 24/7. Our bay horse usually wears his about two days before the show. And you will definately know is something on it isn't quite right or it is bothering him. He just simply takes it off. They come off pretty easily.

As for the tails, I am not the best at explaining how it is done. It is done by a vet and not only done for the pleasing look that most of us show people like. Here is a good piece that Tiffany, one of the ASB girls, wrote.
http://www.trot.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57&Itemid=116

She explains alot in it. Alot of what goes for a ASB, goes for a TWH.

Pads are nothing but a way to change the gait of a horse. You can either make on more animated or totaly trash an animated horse with them. It can go either way. Some people have the belief that a "big ole' package" means a big front end. Not true. My little horse breaks above leave with a plantation shoe with a pad and theraputic pad. If you try to put a big package on him it just weighs him down and he won't use himself.

ASB.Immortality

08-29-2006, 02:38 PM

No horse, not even an ASB, has to wear their tailset 24/7. Even the ones that had a tail loose enough it didn't have to be cut. Which a set is nothing. Most of those that wear a set, have their fly sheets and their fans they get to stand and bask in front of. :lol:

Blameitonbrio

08-29-2006, 02:50 PM

As for a decrease in TWH horses - I don't think so. We ignorant Northerners ride em on the trail and love them. I would say that the majority of the trail riding/camping horses that frequent our trail systems up here are either full TWH or at least part.

Beth, I think you are absolutely right: in the trail riding niche, TWH's are and will probably continue to be immensely popular regardless of what happens in the show world.

I would like to point out that the same is true in the South. When we go to the highlands of southwest VA, the most popular trail horse I have noticed by far is the TWH or a cross. The horse campgrounds are full of them. And our Mack is one of these horses. Not all TWH owners who live in the South show their horses in the manner which is being debated in this thread. The TWH is beloved by many southerners who have nothing to do with that, and there is a growing popularity of flat-shod and plantation walking horse shows.

paintedhorizon

08-29-2006, 02:56 PM

This quote from the article is my favorite

Soring is still cruel, wrong, cheating and illegal - no matter what the Quarter Horse people do (or don't do), no matter what the Thoroughbred people do (or don't do) and no matter who wins or loses.

I have been to shows and was thoroughly sickened by what I saw. Why not show the horse naturally, without those pads? It sickens me. JMO

It is very sad that people will put a blue ribbon over the well-being of an animal...but to some winning is everything.

Beth Worden

08-29-2006, 02:57 PM

As long as we are posting links...here's the link to the group I belong to. The information is NOT outdated. It is about today, right now.

BTW - ABS...what I know about a show saddlebred you can fit in a thimble. I have no clue how your horses are shown, but your link was informative and I thank you. I do know some about TWH and it is not ALL IN THE PAST. It still exists and progress is being made, but horses still are suffering at the hands of trainers and owners. I have made it a point to educate myself on this, so please refrain from commenting on my intelligence, as I have yours.

http://www.nyspwhc.org/

Enjoy...

ASB.Immortality

08-29-2006, 03:14 PM

As I do not only own ASBs, I also own Walking Horses. As you can tell by my avatar. That is one of the 4 that we have. Dumas Midnight Walker to be exact. He is padded. He doesn't show with TWH as a Big Lick Horse but shows as a Breeder Racking Horse in the Chain Specialty classes. That is a where they show with a chain but still rack.

I never said that you were stupid. I just said that I believe that some people should learn more about what they are against before just shouting out that it should be a no no. Alot of people can't distinguish a TWH from a ASB, can't tell a trot from a running walk or rack, and think that all horses that wears pads are sore. As I still say, if you don't like it, don't go to the shows and watch them. They have pleasure/flatshod/plantation/versatility shows that you could go see. You can lobby against the pads and I will still lobby for them. You have your opinions and your beliefs and I have mine. I love my padded horses and will stick to them as long as I show. I like that big front end, and long strided backend, and (in combination with) a killer headset. That is just one working machine that has a big heart and motor.

By the way... you forgot to warn me about the music on that website! It is just like the National Racking website... ANNOYING!! LOL!!

CarolU

08-29-2006, 04:03 PM

I never said that you were stupid. I just said that I believe that some people should learn more about what they are against before just shouting out that it should be a no no. Alot of people can't distinguish a TWH from a ASB, can't tell a trot from a running walk or rack, and think that all horses that wears pads are sore. As I still say, if you don't like it, don't go to the shows and watch them. They have pleasure/flatshod/plantation/versatility shows that you could go see. You can lobby against the pads and I will still lobby for them. You have your opinions and your beliefs and I have mine. I love my padded horses and will stick to them as long as I show. I like that big front end, and long strided backend, and (in combination with) a killer headset. That is just one working machine that has a big heart and motor.

By the way... you forgot to warn me about the music on that website! It is just like the National Racking website... ANNOYING!! LOL!!

Starr, I didn't say "no no"...I said it was hearbreaking, and it is. I have admitedly not been around ASB show barns on a continuing basis, there was a Country Club barn near me when I grew up, and those horses were always in harness. Maybe it was show season whenever I went, but I never remember going through that barn that the show horses weren't trussed up.

This statement of yours here:
I like that big front end, and long strided backend, and (in combination with) a killer headset. That is just one working machine that has a big heart and motor.
How would any of that change without chains or pads or harnesses? I can certainly see where pads wouldn't necessarily be on sored horses, but I still don't see why they are necessary at all. Wouldn't the horse still have an awesome heart and motor and loveable? Don't you think it is uncomfortable to wear something like that, even if it is only days on end, and not all the time.

BTW - I agree about the music on that site...a warning would have been nice, but an OFF button would be even better! LOL

paintedhorizon

08-29-2006, 04:09 PM

I agree with CarolU on this

How would any of that change without chains or pads or harnesses? I can certainly see where pads wouldn't necessarily be on sored horses, but I still don't see why they are necessary at all. Wouldn't the horse still have an awesome heart and motor and loveable? Don't you think it is uncomfortable to wear something like that, even if it is only days on end, and not all the time.

There is just no way that is comfortable and is FAR from natural. They don't walk like that without the shows on.

ASB.Immortality

08-29-2006, 04:19 PM

It just depends on what you like. The gait wouldn't change all that much just less front end, not as much reach, not as much backend (on the TWHs that is, on the ASBs just the front end thing). If that is what you like so be it. I like them with the pads. I just think they look better and less like a pleasure horse. If you like the pleasure horse look, then go for it. I do not. I am not into pleasure horses. I don't even like to see pleasure horse classes at the horse show. I don't complain about them. I just do something else. I could go around yelling about the pleasure horses needing to go find somewhere else to show but they deserve the right to show with the big horses. Too me a pleasure horse isn't exciting. I can sit on the porch and watch them go down the road if I want to see them. I like something on the performance side that isn't seen everyday. Now a buttkicking flatshod horse is a little different. But they are few and far between. Just because it is flatshod doesn't mean it can run in performance classes.

paintedhorizon

08-29-2006, 04:36 PM

So you prefer the unnatural gait then?

I'm not arguing, honest! I'm really trying to learn here!

CarolU

08-29-2006, 05:36 PM

Starr, I have to agree that the Performance classes are the most exciting - even in a PF show. I just wish we had the equivalent of your Speed Racking class. I can't think of anything more fun then the excitment of "Rack On!"

Even the name "Speed Largo" sounds exciting! Eh?

ASB.Immortality

08-29-2006, 05:49 PM

The gait is not unnatural to the padded horse, it is just exaggerated or enhanced. I will take that any day of the week. Not every horse out there can make a padded horse. If it doesn't have the heart and the talent combined... you will either have a pleasure horse with a lot of heart and no motion or just junk. I would rather have something with no motion and alot of heart over alot of talent and no heart. Those with no heart aren't worth anything to anyone. They don't even make good pleasure horses.

Barbwire

08-29-2006, 05:56 PM

Storm? I thought her name was Starr? :question

CarolU

08-29-2006, 06:00 PM

ASB.Immortality

08-29-2006, 06:04 PM

Storm? I thought her name was Starr? :question

It is...thanks.

But you know, we used to have a Storm on the old borad. I wonder what happened to her. She had a gray gelding named Smokey as I recall.

LOL!!! I was wondering about that too. I had a TWH stud named Ace's Storm Warning until he passed away at 16 due to complications from colic surgery, he was black though. I know someone who is still on this board that dealt with a big gray gelding named Smokey for awhile. Mel can tell you about him. ;-)

Mellifluous

08-29-2006, 06:06 PM

I think we should keep calling her storm...Like the x-men character it fits her, trust me ;-) :twisted: !

Of course, I also think Barbwire should be Barbarella. :idea:

Barbwire

08-29-2006, 06:07 PM

Now Mel, don't go making me say something vicious to you just to prove I'm aptly named, ya cracker croaker! :twisted:

paintedhorizon

08-29-2006, 07:00 PM

I'm not talking about the gait being unnatural, I'm talking about the padding being unnatural. They aren't born with front hooves twice the height of back hooves.

ASB.Immortality

08-29-2006, 07:50 PM

I am sure it is unnatural, just like some of the angles and awfully close trims I have seen on Fino horse, or how the western pleasure has its' head tied down while it is being ridden or tied up to a tire while it is standing in the stall so it its' neck will be sore and have to put its' head down when they untie it, or the jumpers getting their legs whacked because the just happen to touch a rail, or lots of pleasure horses being trained by trainers that tie them up, lay them down, and throw a tarp over them just do they won't be spooky, or the western horse having its' tail denerved so it can't swish it, or being bled so they will be good and calm. The list is neverending.

There is nothing that a human does with a horse that is natural. Absolutely nothing. A horse is technically a wild animal, they are unpredictable and domesticated just to fit the human needs. Those needs could be for work, pleasure, out of love, bad intentions, or whatever. If we still went by the concept of what is natural, horses would not be kept as pets, companion, firends, workers, etc. There would be no showing, none in pastures, no worming, no trims, no treat of those peppermints everyone keeps on hand, no barns or breeding farms. The list goes on. Tell me.. what exactly is natural? Natural to me is the wild horse living on its' own, fighting for exsistence. What we keep is not natural. They are the products of humans and what we think they should be.

There are people that look for the same things in a horse that I do, a horse is that is willing to be pushed, asked more of, firey, almost spooky in some cases (these will be the horse that has a fit over the horsetrailer that is parked out of place at home but won't bat an eye at anything at the show), good temeperment is a plus but not required as long is isn't stupid (that is a BIG no no), the horse the average person can't take him home and get along with. Then there are the people like you that look for a natural smooth gait, more laid back personality, is eager to please, good temperment and quiet, the horse that is something the average person looks for and in lots of cases breed for.

Everyone to their own. So what is natural to you? It is all in the eye of the beholder. I grew up in awe of those padded horses (TWHs and ASBs). I was bound and determined that if I ever got into Performance horses, I would never go back. I had pleasure horses growing up and still dearly miss my dearheart I had to put down last summer at 31. That was the last pleasure horse I will ever own. Most trainers are happy to oblige someone coming to visit and learn about their horses and ways. You ought to find one and see about stopping in and checking them out one day. If you lived close to us, you could come over anytime and meet the kids.

paintedhorizon

08-29-2006, 07:59 PM

Again, I quote this from the article

Soring is still cruel, wrong, cheating and illegal - no matter what the Quarter Horse people do (or don't do), no matter what the Thoroughbred people do (or don't do) and no matter who wins or loses.

I want to add to that quote by saying I also think padding is cruel. And yes, I agree with the below, that they are indeed cruel

just like some of the angles and awfully close trims I have seen on Fino horse, or how the western pleasure has its' head tied down while it is being ridden or tied up to a tire while it is standing in the stall so it its' neck will be sore and have to put its' head down when they untie it, or the jumpers getting their legs whacked because the just happen to touch a rail, or lots of pleasure horses being trained by trainers that tie them up, lay them down, and throw a tarp over them just do they won't be spooky, or the western horse having its' tail denerved so it can't swish it, or being bled so they will be good and calm. The list is neverending.

However, I am asking you b/c you are the first person to actually ANSWER my questions when it comes to this padding, so I don’t want to go into all of the above, I just want to talk about the padding.

Tell me.. what exactly is natural? Natural to me is the wild horse living on its' own, fighting for exsistence. What we keep is not natural. They are the products of humans and what we think they should be.

You are correct, it’s not natural for the horse to assist us in our every day whims, however, they are not all cruel.

I have been to a local show, talked to “trainers” that were showing, and walked away with a sick feeling in my stomach after seeing what they felt was not cruel.

I’m not saying YOU do anything cruel, I was just asking how padding could be considered uncruel.

ASB.Immortality

08-29-2006, 08:25 PM

I don't see it as cruel. Padding itself isn't cruel unless there is some sort of pressure shoeing to go with it. That is when it becomes cruel. You don't even have to have a pad for a horse to be cruelly shod. I have seen lots of flatshod perfomance horses that are pressure shod to the gills over the years. A package (padded shoe) causes no harm if done correctly to enhance the way a horse moves. You can pad a horse wrong and cause damage. Most of these show horses you see are pulled down to kegs or barefoot in the off season. They aren't required to live with the package on forever once the foot pad is nailed on.

Out of plain curiousity here, and this hypothetical. What would you do if you had an everyday pleasure horse that corked (reached up with his backend and took off a hunk of ankle) with every step he made? Would listen to the farrier that said to make the front a little heavier, maybe stand him up with a wedge to get his front moving a little a faster? Or throw him out in the pasture and let him stand or ride him and hurt him everytime you ride him? Alot of the performance horses you see today cannot go flatshod without corking themselves naturally with or without a shoe on. The backend is bred to be deep and underneath them and have a super long stride. Also what about one that crossfires? Would you trim him correctly on the rear, stick a trailer on there or just hope that he doesn't catch himself so badly that he doesn't cripple himself? Crippled horses can happen in both of the scenarios.

There are shoeing regulations on how the package and hoof measure. Those guidelines are set by the Govt and followed stirctly. You may see a novice that shoes his own horses go overboard and just cram something on there but that isn't right. There are farriers out there that just shoe padded horses. They are well educated in shoeing and know what is correct and what isn't. We have horses in the barn that have shown into their 20s with padded shoes. No, none of them are cripples or so totally unsound that they can't be ridden. They have just earned their retirement and spend their relaxing. No worries of any sort. One of the horses that I show now turned 16 this year. He still wears a package, and covers some ground.

I can't say if I have answered all of your questions or not but I am trying.

pasorider

08-29-2006, 09:05 PM

I don't know much about the Big Lick ( other than I don't care for it) except what I have been told. I know at the American Royal in Kansas City, they use to show Walking Horses. I heard that the American Royal outlawed them years ago because of the cruelty. Do they show there again yet? Was this true? I also was told by a Tenn. Walking Horse breeder and Show person, that they were breeding them to pace, because when they put what I call the elevator shoes on, then they will gait. If they breed for a good flat shod gait, when they shoe them for the Big Lick, they won't gait at all. Is this true?

Abejita

08-30-2006, 01:59 AM

Corked?? is that the same as forging? or is this just a difference in breed language?

I have a pacer STB mare who will forge in the pasture You hear her strike her front hoof almost every step on a walk.But it sure doesnt take shoes to fix it.A good trim does it..

Please explain what Pressure shoeing is.

cowboy ed

08-30-2006, 03:22 AM

they put heavy shoes on those show arabians in order to make them pick their feet up real high too. some other breeds do that too.

as for the TWH stuff, big pads, soring, and all that stuff, its real, but i think it is just plain weird. just a bunch of old diehard redneck tradition.

ASB.Immortality

08-30-2006, 03:28 AM

Almost the same but not quite. When a horse forges they are just hitting the back or the underneath of their front hoof. When one corks himself, he hits himself in the back of the ankle and can make a nasty cut there or even worse.

On the pacing thing, you have heard correctly in a sense. It isn't exactly that they are being bred to be on the pacey (or swingy) side. It is just a side effect of the new bloodlines. People are breeding to what wins. What wins Performance classes tends to be more swingy when barefoot or keg shod. In most cases the horse isn't totally gut-busting pacey but doing more of stepping pace. That is the gait that can be enhance with pads to give the big lick horse the running walk that they have. Not all swingy horses will walk with a package on. Some will have the racking tendancy show and they go another direct showing wise. A horse that racks and a horse that has a running walk can both be a TWH, just a difference in the gaits. It is just like the MFT. They originated from the TWH. If you find one with old breeding on his papers you will find lots of the old timey TWHs. n

The horses that have a natural running walk keg shod or barefooted will go trotty if padded and that doesn't work. Those will be the horses you see in pleasure type classes. Some maybe able to carry a light package and some not. It just all depends on the horse. I would have to say if you are looking for a naturally gaited TWH, go back to the old timey bloodlines. They will tend to have a more pleasureable gait.

ASB.Immortality

08-30-2006, 03:42 AM

Missed the pressure shoeing question and had to come back for it. Sorry.

It is when a horse is hollowed out underneath the pad. This hollowness causes a small pocket between the pad and the hoof (sometimes things were even put in that pocket). When a horse is working, and he makes a step, his hoof will come down onto the pad or shoe, even can happen to barefooted horses, and cause him to be ouchy. In most cases the horse will respond by snapping his feet back up and using more front end. When the horse is standing or walking, it will not bother him. Just when he is working and putting force onto himself.

There are tons of different versions of it. All pretty much have the same effect. It is not something that is to be toyed with. I can't differeniate between the barefoot trim and natural trim thing but I have noticed that some of the things done at the beginng of setting your horse into that style are akin to it. I would say that back in the day was the holy grail of techniques. Those are were the golfball and spring stories come from. That is a form of pressure shoeing. This relates back to old timey horses. Shoeing, horses, and trainers have come along way since the time that was really used. I am sure that there are some untidy folks running that still use it but it isn't something I would want do to any of mine.

cowboy ed

08-30-2006, 11:44 AM

so, ASB, based on what you are saying, it appears that the soring practice is alive and well at the TWH shows. since you have a lot of insider information about these practices, what if anything would you recommend in order to put a stop to this abuse?

Edurne

08-30-2006, 12:08 PM

soring is definitely still a practise - I had a response to an ad for "temp barn help" that requested a service of soring to two very young horses (can't remember breed, but it was not tb, and it was a show barn). . Of course, I responded that I didn't do that kind of work.

Fuego

08-30-2006, 12:41 PM

I worked in an ASB barn as a kid and attended shows as a groom. The barn I worked for DID NOT use any type of hoof or leg soring whatsoever, I can say this with certainty. What I saw at the shows was another story, and abuse was rampant. ( this was over 20 years ago)

However, due to the high risk of self injury because of the ridiculous hoof length and pads, these horses were NEVER turned out of their stalls. They would sit in their stalls the ENTIRE show season with their tails in bustles, to help maintain the unnatural tail carriage desired for the ring, but they did have their anus's gingered at the shows ( gingering was an acceptable practice back then, don't know about now). If you think gingering is harmless, stick some ginger up YOUR OWN anus, and then come back and tell us all how pleasant it was......

Even as an ignorant hillbilly kid, it was clear to me, that no animal should be treated and forced to live the unnatual life these horses did, just to satisfy some people's need to freakify their horses.

Some people will say ANYTHING to justify immoral and indecent treatment of animals.

Many of the rationalizations in this thread used to justify many of the TWH and ASB practices are basically the same rationalizations I've heard people use trying to defend dog fights and rooster fights.

"It's their nature, what they were bred for.....the animals love it, it's completely natural". Pointing out abuses in other breeds is hardly a justification to inflict your own type of abuse on your own animals.

Yes, obviously some people do like exaggerated unnatural leg action from their horses and will do ANYTHING to achieve it and come up with rationlizations to justify it. Just as some people like rooster and dog fights and will say and do anything to justify their preferences ( and why they continue and still exist today). But it doesn't change the facts of what is done to the animals or the lives they live.

I believe the Psycological Journals say something about people who derive enjoyment from torturing animals?????

Carol Nelson

08-30-2006, 12:53 PM

Fuego, I applaud your reply...thank you so much for posting! You said it all, Mitch!

ASB.Immortality

08-30-2006, 01:11 PM

So you think that just because a horse doesn't get out of its' stall during show season that is cruelty? So tell us how many days on end these horses were out of their stall being worked? It is not as if the horses just stand there for days on end like most of your pleasure horses do in the pasture. As for turnout, the turnout isn't an issure you like you keep claiming it to be. That is as long as a horse is worked on a regular basis. I have some surprising news for you also, not all of the like to be out. You can put mine in the arena to let him run it out and if you don't watch him, he will tear the gate to get back in the barn. He doesn't like to be outside.

On that note... what about these stallions that are standing at stud? If you have them, do you turn them out? We do ours in the off season. If that stallion is not pasture kept, what exactly do you do with your breeding stallion that stands in the stall 24/7 and only gets out for that enjoyment of being bred. I have seen many cases of this in all breeds.

As for the the soring thing being alive and rampant... it isn't as bad as they want you to believe. If you love something, you learn about it. You learn about it to know what to look for. If I have a horse at a trainers', I am not paying them to "fix" my horse. My horse should be worked. What I know of them has come from along time of being with the breed. If you think we sore... I invite any of you to the barn where you can meet my horse, or the next show we are to see him. You can feel his feet and give him the once over and then tell me he is sore.

By the way for the folks that think ASBs are sored, you are totally wrong. They will be lame in the trot if sored.

Fuego

08-30-2006, 01:55 PM

The horses I'm referring to were NEVER turned out. Regardless if it was show season or not. Their ridiculous hoof length and pads were maintained year round.

If prepping for a show, the horses scheduled for the show did get out of their stalls to be worked 3-5 times a week ( approx 30 mins each). If there wasn't an upcoming show and during the off season, the horses stood in their stalls for weeks on end ( especially during the winter months). This too was a common practice, and just not at the barn I worked at either.

Perhaps your horse will tear down the gate to get back into the barn, because being left unattended outside his stall is too much of a foreign and terrifying experience for him. Yea...real natural.

paintedhorizon

08-30-2006, 02:06 PM

You can put mine in the arena to let him run it out and if you don't watch him, he will tear the gate to get back in the barn. He doesn't like to be outside.

We had a horse at the equine college I went to that did this. His entire life he had been stall kept. He did not KNOW what outside freedom was. He did not understand that it was a GOOD thing and would sit there and pace all day at the gate if he was allowed to stay out there.

That is NOT natural for them to want back in the barn.

You did answer my questions, but even with your answers, I still have to say it sounds cruel to me. That is my OPINION though.

I will never go to another TWH or ASB show again unless it is a natural show. Light shod or barefoot is what I mean about natural in that sense.

ASB.Immortality

08-30-2006, 02:20 PM

Oh yeah, I am sure it is totally foreign to him. He was a pleasure horse left to rot in a pasture until he was 8 years. I guess that is what happens what a horse is left outside to fend for himself for too long. Ask Mel about them. She has his pasture mate. Once he figured out he didn't have to be left standing the rain, freezing in the winter, left out to sweat to death in the heat, and have the bugs eating him alive. he doesn't tolerate it any longer. Now he can stay in where it is warm in the winter & have a blanket not left to fend for himself in the elements, and have a fan to stand in front of to cool off with instead of just trying to stand in the shade and sweat.

He just happened to find a new life he liked alot better. I pleasure ride him a few times a year along with showing him and he does get turned out for what little but he will stand to be out there. All of about 15 minuted unless the conditions are just perfect then you might get 30. All the horses I have met that came out of the pasture and into the stall (including the my old horse I put to sleep last year) like it. My old horse never got to stay in a stall until he was in his late 20s and that was due to the fact that he got loose and got injured. In the few months we kept him up, you could try to turn him out and you would get the same result as my other. I find that my horses (once they realize they have a choice) like the stall much better.

I just love it when people have their way. It is their way or nothing. Not on the soring subject but care subject here, why don't you believe their are other ways to care for a horse other than just leaving him to stand outside all the time? I have one pasture horse right now and she actually prefers a stall. I also have stall horses. So tell me now, what exactly is the big deal you are making out of the stall thing? You didn't answer my question about the stallions.

If you want to get mad at someone and get a nasty attitude, which you do have here, take to someone that you know personally does their horses wrong. You don't know me or my horses. I will say it again, if you are in my area, come by and meet my horses. I don't foresee that happening though. There are just some that wear blinders way too much to see anything but their point of view. Just like hateful attitudes are becoming real natural as of lately. Once again, I like them, you don't. I never said you had too. No matter how much you try to force me into not liking them, it just isn't going to happen. Sorry.

Oh... cowboy ed! I missed your question. Sorry about that! As for stopping the few that do still abuse the horses in the industry, I don't know if you will ever really get them to stop. Those are the people you see on the USDA list over and over again. Look for regularly reappearing names and will see that it isn't that many. Just some that are so stubbornly set into the old ways isn't even funny. They are the ones that don't care about anyone or anything, just to win and get that almighty dollar. The only thing I know is take them out and boil them. That way they may know what the burn feels like.

Pasogirlz

08-30-2006, 02:28 PM

ASB.Immortality

08-30-2006, 02:44 PM

I just recently heard from a friend who had a visit from the Ag Dept....they got a fine b/c the only thing they could find was that he had a horse out in the round pen. They said he did not have adequate shelter. :roll:
The owner responded that he rotates them out of the stalls during the day.....but he got a fine anyway....apparently, the state thinks all horses should be in stalls 24/7. ;-)
Perhaps of few of you should target some of you "stall" issues w/them. I know someone would appreciate it. :lol:

I think it is due to all the calls they are starting to get on pasture horses. If someone drives by and thinks there is something wrong they can call and complain. I work for a Sheriff's Office and we had a blue million calls about a horse that had just arrived in a pasture I pass twice a day going to and from work. Everyone called and said that they were starving the horse to death. He was thin. But had plently of food and water. No shelter though and no trees. After talking with his owners, we found that they had gotten him from a sale looking like that. It was a pity case until they could have him put to sleep. He was in his late 20s - early 30s and his body was just simply wearing out on him. He was only there for about a week before he made his peaceful journey out.

I have seen some stall horses not fair any better. I have seen some that are fed but left in nasty stalls. I am talking truly nasty. I have also seen cases where it just seemed the horse was stuck up and forgot about. Not turned out, not ridden, no stall cleaned, no feeding, nothing. Those are some sad cases.

Horses left in pastures can come out just as bad. Injuries not taken care, no worming, or hoof care, left in a pasture too small and they starve (that is the horse I have in the pasture now, that is the condition we found her in). She is blind in one eye because she poked her eye on something and there was no vet care for her. Skinny enough to be losing the hair on her body. In reality, there is no perfect solution for all the horses. They can live in stalls or in the pasture. It just depends on their keepers. They are either loved or forgotten.

Beth Worden

08-30-2006, 02:46 PM

For those of you who want to DO something about soring horses...

Write to your US Senator and House Rep and demand more money be used to enforce the Horse Protection Act

Contact Friends of Sore Horses (FOSH)
PO Box 6751
Bend, OR 97708

paintedhorizon

08-30-2006, 02:51 PM

Beth Worden

08-30-2006, 03:04 PM

One more thing you can do is check out the FOSH website.

http://www.fosh.info/pr_060116b.html

Beth Worden

08-30-2006, 03:08 PM

ASB.Immortality

08-30-2006, 03:10 PM

ASB, I'm sorry if any of my words came out harsh or angry. I'm not angry or anything. It's just my opinion.

As far as the pastured horses, I agree that pasture horses should have some sort of shelter. But I know I have seen HUNDREDS of horses in pastures, with perfectly good stalls attached or lean tos inside the pasture that would still stand out in the rain or cold or snow. Each horse is different.

But I can't honestly say that I think any horse is perfectly 100% happy standing 24 hrs a day in a 12 x 12 stall with maybe some sort of work throughout the week.

But that is not the point of my discussion here. I know it happens in all breeds.

Again ASB, I'm not angry with you or anything you have said. I'm just voicing my opinion that I believe it is cruel to wear the platform shoes that they wear. That is what I believe is cruel.

Definately wasn't you my dear! Just some try to portray me as being nasty to my horse because they are stalled or padded. I can't say that I am.

Friends of Sound Horses are pretty good. Some of there members are DQPs at shows. I think though that they are are just in a certain area that the DQPs works. Thre is way more than one organization that does them. I will find the list again and post them here.

Pam M

08-30-2006, 03:27 PM

On the stall issue...I have seven horses on my place. All of them have access to the barn and it's their choice whether to stay in a stall or stay in the pasture. All of their pastures are minimum one acre, with grass and trees, so they've got room, grazing and shade.

Out of the seven, two spend 50-75% of their time in their stalls, two only go in their stalls for feeding (choosing even to stand out in the rain) and the rest wander in and out in no particular pattern.

By breed:
Paso mare and Arab gelding - hate stalls
Mustang gelding and NSH gelding - love stalls
QH geldings (2) and Paso filly - don't care

My point is that - according to the horse - some might find it cruel to be stalled and some might find it cruel to be kept out. I believe, based on my horses actions, that, like people, THEY have their own opinions and preferences. Kind of like people and camping!

Mellifluous

08-30-2006, 03:49 PM

My horsekeeping situation is similar to Pam's. I have 4 horses on something like 6 acres of pasture. They have a pole barn with a 16x20 stall at one end that is open to them at all times. For the most part, my guys spend the vast majority of time out grazing. Lexi, the older paso fino mare will come and stand in the stall during the hottest part of the day during the summer and on blustery days in the winter. Phoebe used to stay with her but not so much since she has gotten a little older. All of them get under the barn when it rains heavily.

During the winter I will put shavings in the stall. I can go over early in the morning and find Spirit, Lexi and Phoebe sacked out in there. Lady lays in the dirt under the open sided part of the barn. She is the lowest ranking horse in the herd so she does not get the luxury of the shavings.

Terry Wallace

08-30-2006, 04:57 PM

Mitch, Cowboy Ed, Beth...& others.

We are in agreement on this subject.

Mitch...you have to be carefull ya know.... lots of people can't handle the truth....

Your statement.....Some people will say ANYTHING to justify immoral and indecent treatment of animals.

Says IT ALL....

maybe those trainers ought to nail some big, tall wedgie platform shoes to their own feet, and see just how long they are comfortable with them on.

The whole concept of shoeing & padding is so outlandish... I cannot believe anyone would find this practice an O.K. thing to do... JMO

So many TRADITIONS (the Paso Fino breed included) need to be done away with...when will the human get smart enough to do that? When will the human STOP making the horse suffer simply for the VANITY OF MAN???

ASB.Immortality

08-30-2006, 05:26 PM

If anyone believe that traditions are outlandlish, then maybe they should turn their horses back into the wild.

Traditions are fine as long as no pain is caused. My invitaion is till open. For all of those coming to Nationals I am not that far from there. Come meet the horses.

dana

08-30-2006, 06:26 PM

i have friends that came from switzerland 28 years ago. they take WONDERFUL care of their horses. every one is in a stall for the night and their stalls are cleaned 365 days a year. everyone goes out to pasture on a daily basis.

but when they left switzerland 28 years ago. it was a SERIOUS fine to not take your horse out of a stall and exercise them every day. the injuries associated with keeping a horse stalled all the time are incredible.

Terry Wallace

08-30-2006, 07:20 PM

Easy now....I did NOT say any & all traditions......

If anyone believe that traditions are outlandlish, then maybe they should turn their horses back into the wild.

Thats a bit drastic don't you think.... There is no "wild" for the most part.

Anyone who thinks piling pads on under shoes to lift a horse to an unnatural balance between front & hind height, is not in the least bit harmful...just might want to study up on how tendons and ligaments have to stretch to allow it, how a horse's back functions, and other fundamental
operating "systems" on the horse.

Its not that you can have a sound horse at age 17 BECAUSE of this type of treatment...you got a sound horse IN SPITE of it.... very lucky...but WHY would you subject a horse to that in the first place... Would that be purely for human vanity?

Lets get REAL here... ! ;-)

motorgypsy

08-30-2006, 08:14 PM

Of course the funny thing is women do the same thing to their own feet. High heel shoes are terrible for your feet, back, knees, and everything else - but the young girls think they make them look more desireable so they wear them anyway. The difference is - they do have a choice. The horses don't.

I grew up in a saddlebred barn in the late fifties. My best friend boarded her horse there. This barn has no turnout - just a riding arena and an indoor arena. The horses are in their stalls all the time with their tail sets on. We are a very big ASB and TW show area and I've gone to both shows since I was a teen. Way back then they just grew the front feet really long instead of using pads. They used the very large chains also to encourage picking up the front feet. The barn trainer used all kinds of different methods to get them horses to be more wired and animated. We have two inlaws who show TW's also. Stuff is still going on to this day. They just try to stay one step ahead of the feds.

And I hardly think a working relationship between man and horse is the same as making changes that are harmful to the horse's body - and of course working two year old paso finos on hard surfaces for hours is just as hard on the horse as many other practices.

With all the advances in training one would think the "big gait" could be trained without the pads???

Abejita

08-30-2006, 08:51 PM

Our breeding stallion is turned out in pasture/paddock as much as everyone else..sometimes 24/7 , most times half a day or less.Weather is ok right now that they were turned out at 4 and will come in tomorrow after the barn is done,probably around 9am. (summer is night turn out,winter is day in by dark ..more to satisfy MY scheduleBut they are usually ready to come get their feed /hay )last night it was hot and they didnt go out until almost 8pm. I do not have run in sheds in these barn paddocks.My 'outside' fields with run ins are 24/7 turn out.The stallion used to be in one that was situated between the other fields .A little two stall shed with hay storage. He loved it.But I needed the space :roll: he respects the fence and as long as he can see the other horses he is happy. If he was a fruitcake..he wouldnt be a stallion. Do you to think stallions must be stalled??

When there were 5 studs here they only got turned out for an hour or so a day. Exercised/worked if they were on the roster..Mainly because at that time there were also around 70 head here and there was no room to turn them out longer. When the 'big downsize' happened and I was left with 2 studs for a couple of years, I turned both out like the one is now..just at opposite ends of the turnout (there are 6 paddocks, three each side with aisleway in the middle ,plus aisle between each paddock.So one would go way out while the other would be in one closest to barn) Mares and geldings were in paddocks next to and/or across.Mares in heat would come over and talk..and the studlies would talk ..but neither tried to test the fence.

I think if a horse is getting worked it is ok if they are not turned out.Maybe not the BEST ..but ok.I I PREFER they get to go out and run and be a horse .Think of what it was like in the days that horses were working critters in cities ..there WAS no turn out...

Mellifluous

08-30-2006, 10:46 PM

This is something interesting that my farrier told me while he was out today...

1 oz of shoe on a hoof = 1 pound of stress on the shoulder because the shoulder is what actually has to move the weight of feet/shoes.

Just out of curiousity, how much to average shoes weigh, and how much does a typical package weigh?

motorgypsy

08-30-2006, 10:52 PM

Forgot to mention - our breeding stallion is out 24/7 with his buddies - his son and our gelding. They have shade and he has a fly sheet since he's ALLERGIC to fly bites. Poor baby. They have a ball playing. I need to post pictures of their antics. And yes we have mares on the property but he learned along ago that for breeding the mare is brought to him in his own special breeding paddock so even if the fence is down he stays in his section. We do have roundpen panels and a hot wire keeping them about 15 feet apart though so they don't talk over a fence and gat caught or something. Many many stallions do great together as long as there are no mares really close.

CarolU

08-30-2006, 10:54 PM

Mel, in PFHA the shoes cannot exceed 10 ounces.

Carol Nelson

08-30-2006, 11:32 PM

Rojo Tejas is in a 36' x 12' stall that has an open run that is 20' x 30'. He can go out into that 24/7. Then attached to that is another paddock that is 30' x 40' so that he can go out into that area in the daytime. There is a three feet wide walkway between this pen and the mares, so that he can come within three feet of them and not be in with them. His yearling son, Devante, is in one almost that size right next to Rojo.
In the cooler weather each stallion is put out to exercise in our regulation size roping arena for a couple of hours a day, but in this heat both have been self-relegated to standing in front of their fans. ;-)

ASB.Immortality

08-30-2006, 11:33 PM

I see a stallion in the pasture as a huge liability. I have seen too many stallions (of all different breeds) getting loose and breeding the countryside along with injuring lots of other horses in the process, also causing lots of property damage. With a stallion standing outside 24/7 without nonstop supervision you are just asking for trouble. I do believe that a stallion should be stalled and only turned with supervision.

paintedhorizon

08-30-2006, 11:58 PM

:eek: :cry: I see a stallion in the pasture as a huge liability. I have seen too many stallions (of all different breeds) getting loose and breeding the countryside along with injuring lots of other horses in the process, also causing lots of property damage. With a stallion standing outside 24/7 without nonstop supervision you are just asking for trouble. I do believe that a stallion should be stalled and only turned with supervision.

Pam M

08-31-2006, 12:05 AM

Good management and good fencing can solve that liability problem. Stallions need social interaction just as much as mares and geldings. I love my neighbor's setup - his 3 stallions are on half acre lots with partially enclosed run-ins and 6 foot heavy duty wire fences between them. In addition to the wire fences they have a 6 foot chain link fence separating the babies from the stallion on the end. They're right on the road and very close to the house. There's also a board fence surrounding the property on the roadside. They're all well-behaved and seem very happy. He had one that wasn't well-behaved and that one's a gelding now. I never worry about one of them getting loose.

motorgypsy

08-31-2006, 12:26 AM

Why would a stallion want to leave his "wives"and his buddies? He wouldn't. If a stallion is not well behaved he doesn't stay a stallion. And that doesnt' mean they aren't hot as chili peppers. It means they know what is expected of them.

ASB you need to read HAST'S descriptions of the Arabian barns in Saudi Arabian where they almost never geld. Stallions are ridden with each other and with mares all the time. We've been on many trail rides and at many shows with stallions and they were perfect. They learn as young colts how to behave. They are taught when and where they may breed a mare and they know otherwise they don't have permission. Many people on here keep their stallions together and they have a great time. There are many misconceptions about stallions. Most stallions in the wild never breed at all. They hang out in the bachelor herds and play. Only the top stallions in the bachelor herd generally have a chance at their own mare herd anyway.

CarolU

08-31-2006, 01:33 AM

Nancy, I think you are quite right about stallions. It's like people expect them to mis-behave and so ALLOW them to. It's not like that with Paso Finos where every macho male HAS to have a perfectly trained stallion. When you go 'farm-hopping' it's the stallions they put you on, because they are typically the best behaved horses there.

I have been on many PF rides with several stallions, and other then some neighs and squealls, you'd never know most are stallions...very well behaved.

But I took Zar to the Expo and YEEEEE GODS all I did was run away from out-of-control stallions of ALL breeds. Dragging their owners around with stud chains over their noses - those horses should NOT have been there, period! The Fresian almost came over the top of the stalls to her (and no, she wasn't even in heat!!!).

Look at Parelli's QH stallion Casper...I watched him perform at liberty, perfectly, when Maggie was blatently in heat. It's not just Paso Finos...it's training.

motorgypsy

08-31-2006, 02:44 AM

Amen CArol. Our stallion is probably our best ride and we may ride him once or twice every six months and he's a machine. Cues like a dream and never misses a step. I don't think it's the breed, I think it's the breed's expectations of stallion behavior. I too have ridden stallions at many farms and they are fantastic once they know what is expected of them. I've actually read that once they have accepted their role as "number 2" they are much happier and less stressed out than if they are the "big boss". I can't say if that is true or not but our stallions are very happy, playful and affectionate and we have three and our gelding is the alpha, not any of the stallions.

CarolU

08-31-2006, 02:52 AM

There is a good name (got it from Cindy) for misbehaving stallions, it is "gelding."

Starr, I should tell you I know several people - Rusel, Terry, Isaac - who keep several stallions together in a field, seperate of the their mares, but together in a herd situation. I firmly believe that if this can be done, it is the preferable way for stallions to live. I've also read of farms that will turn their stallion out with their pregnant mares, and he is as happy as can be.

I agree that the stallion owner has a responsibility to make sure his fences are substantial enough to contain a stallion, and should be liable if the stallion gets out and harms another horse. But I don't think stallions HAVE to be kept in stalls all the time.

Colts have incredible play drives, and even more then mares, NEED the interaction with others.

ASB.Immortality

08-31-2006, 02:54 AM

Our ASB and TWH studs live side by side in their stalls, haul together, show with mares, geldings, and other stallions with no problem. Then there is a reality check. They are still unpredictable animals. Your best behaved stallion can become retarded in one second. It's like that saying "oh he doesn't kick, bite, etc" or "he's never done THAT before."

Terry Wallace

08-31-2006, 01:21 PM

Why oh why would you put a stallion in solitary confinement? It is far from how they need to really live and be happy. Horses are gregarious creatures, they NEED company...but most importantly..they need to be able to MOVE, to run at a full gallop, to buck & snort and kick up their heels. They need this to maintain their health at its highest expectation.

Stall confinement IMO....is the worst and most unnatural way to keep a horse. It does nothing for their feet & legs...except maybe atrophy them from where they *could* be, and does absolutely nothing to maintain strong bones, and good attitudes.

Stalling a horse for 23 or even 12 hours a day..is something I just would not do, unless that horse was sick or needed stall rest for an injury.
It astounds me that people think solitary confinement in a stall is A.O.K.
Then, they wonder why the horses are so overweight and dieing from colic in some cases...
JMO

Beth Worden

08-31-2006, 01:41 PM

Terry- I'm with you 100%, but then you knew that, already ;-) Stall confinement for ANY SEX horse is a death sentence, physically and mentally. This is my opinion, only. Could be that data show horses are better off in boxes, but I just don't see it.

ASB.Immortality

08-31-2006, 01:48 PM

Nice colic argument but I don't believe it holds water. I haven't had a horse colic in 10 years (well, October will be ten years) all of them stall kept.

As I have said before and will say once more... We do turn ALL of our horses. The stud though are only turned with someone watching them closely. It only takes a second for a horse to take a notion to do something and by god they are going to try it.

All of you that believe they should stay out 24/7 are just waiting for a law suit to happen. I don't care what the studies say. Our horses are well rounded and act well. On the other hand, I am not having to worry about innocent people and other horses getting injured when my "pasture stud" goes on a rampage across half of the county.

If keeping a horse in a stall makes him overweight please explain all the overly fat pleasure horse kept in the pasture standing around that founder, colic, etc. They stay out in pasture and by your logic... that shouldn't happen. I guess you would say to just bring him up in a dry lot and not feed him so he could still be out. Not much different from a stall. In that case you are just leaving him to rot inthe elements and just barely feed him.

Oh and Terry... this is going to sound bad and I know but I am saying it anyway. It seems that everything done with a horse is unnatural to you unless you are the one doing it.

Edited to add: This isn't a thread for people to learn anything about each other. I guess it is just one to bash someone that doesn't agree with your beliefs. Done with it here.

Terry Wallace

08-31-2006, 02:08 PM

ASB...you are the one doing the bashing.
Your comment is so very wrong about me anyway.

Perhaps when you get older, you will come to realize that you are not doing your horses any favors by stall confinement.

I have been breeding and raising horses for close to 30 years now...funny...but not one single lawsuit...nor is my place a "lawsuit waiting to happen".... nor have I EVER had a stallion get loose and go "breeding around the country"...

As far as colic in stalled horses..oh yes...that is reasearched..so do your homework before you go saying it doesn't hold water.

You seem upset now because I sure don't agree with your personal horse-keeping practices...and that is my opinion..

Please reralize...it is YOU who have decided to begin the bashing, and then turn tail and run. I don't care to bash anything. I speak only the truth as I have lived and live it. I don't make up anything...just so you know. ;-)

Terry Wallace

08-31-2006, 02:11 PM

Just wondering ASB... why would you pick such a sore subject with many of us... then get angry because many here will not support your beliefs on horse-keeping?

What did you expect would happen?

Please do not be angry.... I have no intention of angering you.

BTW...if my "pasture stud" that you say is rotting away in the elements..(so far from the truth...each stallion has his own shelter) ever did get out....I seriously doubt he would even leave the property. He would go visit other horses here... I used to let Mila out to roam around with me when I fed... she never even came close to leaving the property either....she followed me or she went to visit with other horses, including those nasty, ole' "pasture stallions".

;-) :D

ASB.Immortality

08-31-2006, 02:47 PM

If I remember correctly someone asked me to come out and explain then I get the people like you trying to force feed be your beliefs. I was trying to answer questions but I guess that doesn't work. if it isn't a pleasure it must need to be no matter what to make the majority of you all happy. If you don't like our horses or what we do with them, tell someone else about it and have them outlaw stalls, padded horses, and showing.

And by the way... I am just telling you what I have seen of your views. It is not just in this thread. Look back at your posts. You will see that if someone doesn't agree with you, godforbid.

From here on, everyone can speculate and make up whatever they like about TWHs and ASBs, or stalled horses. I could careless. I won't answer your questions. You can try to find someone else who will.

Terry Wallace

08-31-2006, 02:54 PM

Just keep on bashing!

You must be very angry.

You are so way off its laughable. ;-)

Nuff said....

Abejita

08-31-2006, 03:26 PM

From here on, everyone can speculate and make up whatever they like about TWHs and ASBs, or stalled horses. I could careless

You COULD care less or you COULDNT care less?I guess you could care less or you wouldnt be answering the posts..

Abejita

08-31-2006, 04:11 PM

Terry ..If I had a big dry lot with run ins I wouldnt stall any either If I left some horses out 24/7 I might as well just shoot them as they would probablt founder (Cushings mare esp)Climate and grass makes a big difference

Carol Nelson

08-31-2006, 04:28 PM

Red LEAVE his home...come on! He'd get depressed when he had to go to the BREEDING BARN....TO BREED!
I always say I could build him a pen out of baling twine and he'd stay in it! :lol:
He just doesn't challenge gates, or fences. Never has. Even now, his pen is built out of panels...without tee-posts to reinforce. Even with a mare in heat on the other side, he just doesn't challenge fences. :-?

And like Abejita says, there ARE some horses that you can't leave out on full pasture. Even so, best is to have room for them to move adequately. Even foundered horses do best on a soft sand bed with room to move around.
I've been blessed to be able to have dry lot runs.

(ha...these days my whole danged farm looks like a dry lot... :roll: )

Jane Hurl

08-31-2006, 04:44 PM

Out here in Alberta, quite literally millions of horses are outside in pastures 24/7. We have the luxury of a lot of land and not a lot of people. (I believe that Alberta is bigger than Texas, though I'm not positive of that -- but I do know that we have maybe 3 million people tops in the entire province.) Very few horses are stalled here. Even city horses have stalls and paddocks of about 1 acre each.

So, my vet came over here from Germany. He's a horse-nut vet. The one thing he could not get over is how much longer our horses live here than they do over in Germany. When asked what the difference could be, he said that he was totally convinced that it is because in Germany there is a great number of people and not much agricultural land, so horses are stalled all the time. Just his opinion -- but it seems to me that it's fairly well grounded.

DebbieS

08-31-2006, 04:47 PM

My neighbor has kept his stallion in the neighboring pasture for the 7 years I have lived here. He chooses the mares he wants to breed him with, and they are share his pasture. He is great with the babies, as they love to play with him and each other. I've NEVER seen him get out of his fence (and I have a mare, although my driveway seperates the pasture fences). My neighbor calls him, when an outside mare needs servicing. He runs up, breeds the mare and goes back to his herd. It's very cool, actually.

My horses have access to 20+ acres 24/7. My easy keepers are muzzled in spring/early summer and only turned out during the day. They are confined to 50x50 corrals an night so they can have their grazing muzzle removed and be off the green grass. They have 2 barns and lots of trees for shelter. They seldom use the barns (except to poop). They stand in front of them sometimes if we have extremely cold weather with wind. Yes, it gets very cold here!

Listo had to be stalled for 6 weeks last winter when he was injured and had to wear a cast. That was the longest 6 weeks of my life. I felt so sorry for him.

Horses are very social and need other horses in a herd environment.....

Jane Hurl

08-31-2006, 05:06 PM

Horses are very social and need other horses in a herd environment.....

Man, ain't THAT the truth! And on that note, I'd be resting my case! ;-)

Pam M

08-31-2006, 05:29 PM

I regularly leave my gate open because there's only 2 horses at my place that even have an inclination to leave the property (Arab & Paso)! And those 2 stay in their pasture if the gate's open. The others, while it's possible that they could leave, don't. Not in nearly 4 years. The worst thing they ever did is one went to the empty field next door and then came back when I called.

My Paso mare, if she decides to leave, will leave. I've seen her jump the 4.5' perimeter fencing from a standstill twice. But she never gets out of sight of the barn before coming back.

After we had a bad hurricane two years ago, our front gate was destroyed and no stores were open. Not a single horse, out of 8 at the time, left the property even though 75% of my fencing was completely down, no electric fencing (no power), no gate, nothing to keep them in. I was so busy trying to patch the holes in my roof before the next rain that I didn't even pay attention to trying to keep them in.

Horses are "home" animals. Most don't like to roam too far from home.

Terry Wallace

08-31-2006, 05:37 PM

Hey Debbie...once upon a time I had four..yep FOUR stallions in the same 300 acre pasture. Three "juveniles" and one senior stallion. Two juves where his sons, and one was not. The senior stallion had the mare herd. Mares were not interested in keeping "time" with any young stud.
The young studs (ages two to four) stayed on the outskirts of the herd. They were not allowed in by the senior stallion, and they knew and accepted this...much like BLM bachelor herds do..they skirt the main herd, at a safe distance so as not to disturb the space of the senior stallion.

The senior stallion was totally kind to his his young foals being born in the spring and summer in the main herd. Every horse knew its place... there was little or no challenging either the senior stallion OR the alpha mares.
It was bliss in the 1970's...semi-irrigated pastures... crops of gorgeous foals..all sold on or by weaning.... those were the days!

Now my stallions are in their 60 X 50 pens with shelters, and share turnout onto a one acre pasture just for them.... how I wish they could get turned out on 300 acres..... they wouldn't even have to speak to each other..but my bet is...you'd find them all together...within 50 yards of each other..at most all times...as they need and ENJOY each other's company. There is no better teacher to a horse....than another horse. JMO

Pasogirlz

08-31-2006, 09:16 PM

http://homepage.mac.com/oatmeal/MAF/maxes/zombieTC1.gif

Abejita

09-01-2006, 01:04 AM

ooohhh scarey smiley!!!! hehehe Cute Marie... real cute.. ;-)

motorgypsy

09-01-2006, 03:12 AM

Forgot to mention one thing that we think is pretty neat. Our stallion and gelding ran loose for three years on the mountain before the property sold and construction started on the golf course community. The road is fenced but it is a deadend road and they had the run of the entire mountain all the way to North Carolina if they wished which they didn't. Any time we wanted them we just went out and called and before we knew it SloughP was barreling down the mountain full speed and coming to a sliding stop at our feet - which was rather scary when it rained because it was red clay with a steep incline at the end - and Sultan was right on his heels. We just put brightly colored sheets and blankets on them in the winter in case any poachers came onto the property but they never went off the property even though they could and they made us some really great hiking trails too. The woman across the street had two horses who also ran loose on the mountain and hers didn't leave her property either. They know where home is.