Can a color gene just . . . appear???

[PasoVicki]

This morning, I saw a photo of a newborn foal. Sire is reddish chestnut; dam is brownish chestnut. Colt is the palest buckskin looking color. I know a chestnut horse can hide an aguoti gene . . . but can a cream gene just appear out of nowhere??????

[Pasogirlz]

What color were both the parents parents? ;-)

[Terry Wallace]

Are you sure it isn't palomino...one of the parents I mean? Some palominos can be fairly dark red....got a link?

[PasoVicki]

The sire is Varon. Here's a link to his photo/pedigree:

http://pasoregistry.com/db/Profile.asp?ID=82219nn

Both his parents were bay, by the way.

I haven't been able to find a link to a photo of the dam, and I'm not sure if I should post a photo since the one I got via email isn't my own picture, but she is a brownish chestnut. (Her sire was bay but her dam is listed as "unknown.")

The baby really looks buckskin -- a light creamy color with blackish on the mane, tail and muzzle.

[Linda Y]

How odd...I just tried to look at the link you posted for the sire...this is what I got:
Please leave the Query String Alone!

:?: :!: :?:

[cowboy ed]

i wouldnt worry much for now. that foal is likely to change color.

[PasoVicki]

Please leave the Query String Alone!

Well, that's weird. Here, try this:

http://www.pasofinofarm.com/Paso_Fino_Stallions/Varon.html

[Heidi]

Sire is reddish chestnut; dam is brownish chestnut. Colt is the palest buckskin looking color. I know a chestnut horse can hide an aguoti gene . . . but can a cream gene just appear out of nowhere??????

Cream cannot just "appear" out of thin air, it is always expressed in some manner. Looking at Varon, he is definitely red (chestnut) so he is "ee". You say the dam is a brownish chestnut...but what if she is actually a faded Smoky Black? That would mean that she carries the cream gene, and if Varon carried agouti the foal COULD be a buckskin from that pairing.

Color testing will tell for sure, or just wait until the foal sheds. Do you know the mare's parent's and grandparent's colors?
Heidi

[PasoVicki]

I hadn't thought about the dam being a faded smokey black; that may be a possibility. She's listed as chestnut . . . but obviously the registry is sometimes wrong. I wish I knew her dam's dam's color, but it's listed as "unknown." That's the only place where a cream gene could have come from, as all the other grandparents are bay.

[Heidi]

Even if Varon has bay grandparents, or even bay parents...because he is red he is ee, so the bays must have been heterozygous (Ee) for color and passed their 'e's for Varon to be red. This is also where he can possibly carry agouti to further prove my earlier hypothesis about SmokyBlack and getting a buckskin from the pairing.

Is there a chance the foal is a very pale red and he just looks buckskin?
If the mare IS a brownish chestnut, that means she is red; ee. With Varon also being red, then the baby could only be ee, red/chestnut.

Can you post a link to the picture so we can see mare and baby?
Heidi

[Sharon B]

You know funny thing about those smoky blacks. I own one that when I bought her she was registered as black. You could look at her and tell she was not black. I took pictures and changed her color to chestnut, I thought she was liver chestnut and they register those as "chestnut". Last year she foaled a perlino filly. Wow how did that happen. I traced her lines back and found the hidden dilute down her mothers line. It took 5 generations back before I knew for sure. This great-granddam was listed as a grulla. Most all of her mothers were bred to bays or blacks and you could not see the dilute. This is a winter picture so her color is darker than in the summer months. http://lilbit.lhl.uab.edu/sagrado/rob12003.jpg

Sharon

[Heidi]

Wow! I'd think from looking at her pic that she was a dark liver chestnut and not a Smoky Black...but having a Perlino foal definitely confirms Smoky Black! ...and look how far back you had to go in her pedigree to find the begining of the cream gene's path of Smoky Blacks!

[echo]

Hmm...more photos of "Smoky black" please!! I have a mare who is the funkiest color...not quite black, not quite brown, but doesn't have leg bars like I would expect a grulla to have. I bred her to a black stallion, and her colt is also a funky brown/black with some light hairs in his mane and tail. I wonder...is she smoky black instead of grulla?
http://www.echowestfarm.com/images/RetadorPicaboo4160621web.jpg
FiddleLeaf's Picaboo and Retador (foal)
Pedigree of Picaboo below:

http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=114738


I see Picaboo's mother was registered a Buckskin. Does this mare look possibly "smoky black"? This mare has NO CHESTNUT or reddish hints at all in her coat. Very odd.

[motorgypsy]

Sure looks like she could be smoky black. I've seen some silver black looking horses that did look like grulla but had no stripes at all and wondered what in the world they were???

[motorgypsy]

http://www.doubledilute.com/images/smokyblack5.jpg

http://www.doubledilute.com/smokyblack.htm

http://www.doubledilute.com/images/Missy.jpg

[Sharon B]

This stallion is not mine but is owned by a friend of mine. We recently purchased a dark golden palomino mare that was sired by him. The filly was born chestnut and did not show her palomino colors until she shed her foal hair. I have her baby pictures to prove it. He passed his dilute gene several times with numerous foals. He is a Bandolero Royal son. We will probably breed several mares to him next year. He is one sweet boy and such a fast gait. http://lilbit.lhl.uab.edu/sagrado/bostall1.JPGhttp://lilbit.lhl.uab.edu/sagrado/bostall2.JPG
Sharon

[Terry Wallace]

Sharon..that is a nice lookin' hoss.

Here are some primitive markings on Darius. A countershaded dorsal. His black tail is getting a LOT of flaxen hairs now. He has sabino gene and a lot of ticking in the flank and on the belly.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/Dariusrearview08302006BB.jpg

Shoulder bars ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/DariusshoulderbarsprimitivemarksBB.jpg

[PasoVicki]

After looking at the smokey black photos, I'm guessing that the dam is really smokey black, not chestnut. Her coat is a funky brownish chestnut, and her tail is kind of dark with reddish/goldish streaks. If she passed a black gene and her cream gene, and the sire (Varon) passed a hidden agouti gene (which I know he carries), the result would be buckskin. What a fun surprise!!!