Clinto Anderson and natural hoofcare

[Jasfino]

Did anyone see the Clinton Anderson segment this week on natural hoofcare? It was really good.

[Trail Rider]

I saw it. It did not really give any info on much but to round the edges. Will have to get the book. I can't remember the guys name, it was Pete something I think.

[Jasfino]

I learned alot by the hoof model he showed and about how the hoof grows. I looked at my geldings foot and from what I can tell ... he has really good hoofs. :D

[Boyd R]

Probably Pete Ramey/Raney??? He use to do my horses. He is an excellent farrier. My horses were never as tough as nails and be able to ride anywhere barefoot. But then I never have gotton the gravel down on the walk paths around here so they always are on soft ground unless being ridden and with so many to divede time between, they have never been able to tuffen like I would like. I am now using an understudy and she is great as well. And both have told me nonsense with putting on an angle measurement if the hoof is trimmed to the horses confo you will have the proper gait. And yes a Pasos Confo will have the degrees of angle that most say the hoof to be trimmed to. But the hoof schould be trimmed to the horse not to a gauge.

[Jasfino]

Yes.. that is who he was Boyd. He talked about the easycare boot a horse would need to wear after taking off the shoes while getting the hoof naturally harder and tougher while riding on rocky.. rough terrain. I liked the hoof model and how he talked about hoof distortion and how the hoof grows. It made alot of sense.

Sorry about all the edits. My grandson is here trying to help me post. :D

[GeorgeGuns]

Yep, Pete Ramey, www.hoofrehab.com is one of the best natural hoofcare sites out there.

Pete really does emphasize boots for transition. No one here would take their shoes off of their own feet and go run down the driveway, heck I can't even tolerate plain dirt! Booting a horse may be a pain, but its a lot less pain than letting the hooves get into trouble from long term shoeing (or short term as I have witnessed) and paying a vet and traditional farrier to "treat" founder or navicular with poor results.

Boyd I'm glad you pointed out the gravel issue. A horse's hoof is only as tough as the terrain it lives on. Even so, some horses respond to the extra weight of a rider and still need boots or at least prudence while riding. With the acvent and easy availability of all kinds of hoof boots, I personally can't see why any horse would need shoes (I realize some folks just have bad luck with boots... )

I wish though that someone would get adamant about poor trimming practices. Just barefoot isn't enough. May of my clients are people that have had their horse bare for some time but aren't happy with the way its done, and for good reason. A long hoof is as detrimental as the shoes, and in some cases more so. The perforated founder I see (BTW she is doing GREAT!!!) is a prodict of improper trimming. Had she been in a natural trim, yes she would have foundered (she retained a placenta for four freakin days) but the outcome would have been much different - chances are she never would have perofrated, and would likley be 100% sound by now. Instead she is looking at about a year to recover a good hoof, and longer to fully callous and be tough as nails. Back to the gravel though: Do it piece meal! Start with a few bags of pea gravel at Lowe's and put it at the water trough or the gate area(s), and just add some here and some there as able. Move dry dirt - build up muddy areas, top them off with shavings to hold the mud at bay. Be creative! Use mats, tarps, anything that can reduse mud and promote the High and Dry that horses hooves really need. Feed in different areas so the areas aren't getting over used. And above all, stick to a shorter trim schedule - eliminating any hoof distortion and keeping it gone is THE single most important factor in getting a tough hoof. I know where all four rocks are on my property, yet I have a few horses here that despite the bad drainage and lack of tough terrain can go on rocks like nobody's business. I do think that is a genetic influence.

Natural hoofcare is such a big picture. Its not just the trim. Terrain, diet, use, movement, companionship, all of these are important factors in making it work. If one of these factors is not met well, the hoof may not reach 100%. Just reducing simple sugars cam tighten up a whiteline that last little bit. Just getting a horse more movement can speed the rehab process for "navicular" (I hate that term, its heel pain and hoof distortion, nothing more) and definately for founder. Companionship can be the key to reducing stress, which does affect the hormones that can lead to poor hoof quality: stress = increased cortisol (the stress hormone) which does weaken the intestinal integrity and make it possible for the enzymes responsible for weakening the lamina to over burden the hoof. (Cortisol is the body's natural steroid - think Azium or Prednisone, same basic chemical, same basic side effects despite the source!)

Even for shod hooves: get the horse in a more natural (manipulate the environment!) lifestyle, more basic diet with less cereal grains, and get a farrier that knows how to respect a sole and understands good balance and breakover. The hoof won't be 100%, but the shoeing can be optimized so that the damage is minimized. Let dirt stay packed in there as long as its not refuse dirt - the pressure to the sole will come closer to what the horse would experience with natural sole to ground contact, and merely check for presence of stuck rocks. Remember that the main reason farriers are taught to remove shoes for a few months is to let the hoof expand and this points exactly to the fact that shoes do restrict hoof function. Don't pull shoes for this break and stop maintaining - these horses need support and frequent trims so that IF shoes are put back on, they go on a hoof that has been put to rights while bare.

Good hooves are a reflection of good manangement, shod, bare, or booted.

[finolover]

if horses need shoes, why did'nt the indian ponies get shoes, why don't mustangs have shoes :?:
it's mans confinement to soft surfaces that makes shoes necessary for all horse breeds...i wish i had a wide pea gravel strip down the middle of my corral......
and coreen you just like googelin clintons buns :lol: :lol:

[CarolU]

if horses need shoes, why did'nt the indian ponies get shoes, why don't mustangs have shoes :?:
it's mans confinement to soft surfaces that makes shoes necessary for all horse breeds...i wish i had a wide pea gravel strip down the middle of my corral......
and coreen you just like googelin clintons buns :lol: :lol:

Earl, I can tell you right now that the Indian ponies didn't get shoes only because the indians didn't HAVE shoes. It didn't stop or keep horses from becoming lame. When a horse got lame, the Indians just ate it.

As for wild horses, that IS different. A wild horse will move to different areas of its range. It will graze and water in bogs and run across rocks, if its feet hurt, it moves to softer ground. But don't for a minute think that they also don't get chips and cracks and become lame. That is also part of 'nature's way.'

YES it is true that its man's decisions to confine horses to wet and messy pens or stalls, ride or drive him a lot on hard surfaces, or sharp sand that can/will also wear down a hoof, that makes shoeing and/or trimming necessary. In the west in the summer, we have the opposite problem, where the ground is so dry and hard the hooves also get dry and hard and require hydration.

While I agree that MOST horses do not require shoes (most are not used enough), I firmly believe there are times that shoes ARE necessary. We ride in the "Rocky" Mountains and shoes protect feet from very rocky trails. Horses that are working horses on streets and hard surfaces need shoes to protect the hoof from being worn down. When I was a kid, I rode so much I'd wear right through my horse's shoes within a few weeks in the summer. I would have worn hooves off fairly quickly and not been able to ride.

So shoes have their place, but I do agree that most horses can get by with trimming.

[SandyMM]

I wish though that someone would get adamant about poor trimming practices. Just barefoot isn't enough. May of my clients are people that have had their horse bare for some time but aren't happy with the way its done, and for good reason.
I can only say that our experience so far with barefoot natural trim has has been excellent. The first two trims were only 4 weeks apart and the improvement was _so_ dramatic that the farrier moved the next appointment out to 6 weeks.

From weeks of being dead lame after a 'normal' trim and (5 days later) a two mile ride out (and then hand-walked back to the trailer) on our regular route, two trims later - Pete was absolutely sound on a 2 1/2 hour ride on hard-packed occasionally gravelly roads this past Sunday. Comfortable, no chipping (we used to see a _lot_ of chipping after a 'regular' trim).

[Terry Wallace]

Earl..it is man's confinement AND underexercising of horses which makes them "need" shoes for hoof protection.

Go to your library and look up horse shoes....from since the beginning of man's time with horses...you will see all kinds of shoes for horses made of leather, woood, metal and even woven reeds. Man has known for some time that he cannot duplicate nature, nor the hoof a horse would have IF it ran free and ranged for forage. Hate to burst your bubble...but some of the BLM horses down at the training center prison in Canon City, Colorado (where I have adopted mustangs) DO have shoes! Why do they have shoes? Because they were taken off hundreds of miles of free range, put into 40 x 40 corrals to live, and some then became tender from the rocky terrain they sometimes ride.

If you think horses don't need shoes...you have not ridden in enough rocks on a horse who lives in confinement most of his 'resting" life.
The rocky mountains are mostly decomposed granite..its very sharp and will wear a hoof in short order... Try it sometime...take a grassy pasture horse up to the mountains....cross lots of streams with rocks for bottoms... see how sound he stays unshod, when he lives the other five days of the week on a grassy pasture....

[GeorgeGuns]

and coreen you just like googelin clintons buns

HAHAHAHA :D What buns? I've got more buns on an empty baking pan.

Yep, only as good as the terrain they live on.

pea gravel: you can get 50# bags at Lowe's or whatever for a couple bucks. Get a few bags at a time.

Indian ponies were rarely confined, the herders pretty much lived with the herd. Any horse can step on the wrong rock, tough hooves merely decrease the likelihood.

[DSDECKERT]

Funny, I watched the show on Sunday, very interesting. Weekend before last, I also attended a Clinton Anderson seminar at the Tampa State Fairgrounds and bought this very same book. Of course it's still in its sealed package, but now I do know it contains some very good information! Both of mine are barefoot and I've finally found a really good natural farrier that I love, he's done them both twice now and their feet look great for the first time since my old farrier had back surgery a year and a half ago. I had the transition of a new farrier, they just don't seem to understand what I'm asking for when I want their feet rolled (or rounded).

[GeorgeGuns]

I sure wish farriers would quit poo-poo'ing this stuff. It would behoove them to learn about it and implement it! The clients they do have barefoot would do even better, and many of their problem cases would improve dramatically.
I htink as more and more people learn about it, the smart fellas will realize that they have to leran it just to stay in business.

[Terry Wallace]

If you have a farrier that does not understand how to roll a toe...he's not much of a farrier!

Does he not do "just trims"...does he shoe everything?

Hard to believe such a guy/gal could stay employed if they don't know farriery "101".

Sooo.... have you noticed where Clinton does MOST of his riding?
That would be in finely tuned dirt in arenas and such.....and you betcha bare hooves would be (certainly *should* be) fine for such footing....

All my horses are barefoot all winter....but they won't be next spring....
Know why? Because they do not get used during winter months, and come spring, when I start them back up again, they will be tender and prone to chipping up in the mountains. The terrain difference between standing around in a soft dirt holding pastures...is nothing like the decomposed granite of the rocky mountains. ;-)

[finolover]

clinton did a big flip flop.....he now ...prefers shoeless...except where he has to wear shoes....he did a big infomercial last week for going shoeless on rfd-tv

[Mellifluous]

I'm going with Terry on this one. Some horses will need shoes. IMHO - but, if your horses are fine with the barefoot trim, go for it. None of mine are shod right now, all are barefoot. They do not have the "barefoot/mustang" trim. When I look at and listen too "natural hoofcare people, it sounds like any horse that does not have the "natural trim" is dead lame and miserable. Not so.

I do not have problems with chips, cracks, lameness, etc. Their feet are wonderful. I have a farrier who knows his stuff and knows when it is time to put shoes on a horse. He has no problems getting business and can be picky about who he works for. He also gets paid well for what he does and I have never heard a complaint from people that use him! You get what you pay for and I am paying for an experienced, professional farrier whom I trust deeply!

And I would like to add that he is very intelligent and is always doing research about his field. He knows about the barefoot trim and has chosen not to do it.

This is my impression. I will delete this comment if it is too inflammatory!

*deleted because it was too mean and could be misinterpreted*

[finolover]

ok, lets see if i got this straight...
the barefoot trim takes time!! :?:
over many trimmings as they grow, the farrier needs to slowly roll the hooves, plus the horses needs access to different terrains :?:

[Terry Wallace]

Not quite.... Anytime you trim, on a horse that will be going barefoot, it is a good idea to roll the toe just slightly. This is because it will help keep the toe/hoof from chipping. Some farriers roll toes, and some don't.

When you don't, you then have a rasped "sharp" edge all the way around the hoof. Some horses will do just fine that way, because it won't take them but a day or two of walking around to blunt the edge off themselves, during natural movement. If they are standing on thick grass, they won't blunt it off that quick, but neither will they have much tendency to chip anyway as grass is so soft.

Horses wear their toes in this manner anyway. A shoe will stop the ability of the horse to roll his toe when they are first put on....BUT...look at any shoe that has been on for a week, and you will see this natural pattern of wearing/rounding the toe. If the shoe were left on for six or eight weeks, when you pull it off...it will be thinnest and roundest at the toe.

Now, if you live in an area where you can ride every week, and you are diligent about riding and keeping your horse in shape, a natural trim may work out just fine, and there is nothing better than going barefooted UNLESS the horse gets tender, has genetically thin walls, very thin soles or perhaps has worn his feet too short, and/or is prone to chipping (dry hooves).

Where I live...it may be three months at a time before I can ride. Depends on the cold, wind & snow. This is the time all my horses are barefoot. Come spring, after horses have been standing around not doing much of anything, and not being ridden, is when the tendancy of getting sore footed will occur. Personally, I will not take my horses to the mountains unshod. I know better than to do that, as I will come home with a tender, ouchy horse. Even if I rode the horse every day, for six weeks prior, I still would not take him to the mountains unshod. Those shoes or EZ Boots will be in place, as a PROTECTIVE measure. I don't want a sore horse, chipped feet, stone bruises, or anything like that keeping me from being able to use the horse.

In fact, I DO think it would be rather cruel to take that horse to the mountains unshod or unbooted, after the horse stood around most of the winter doing nothing. It would be asking for trouble. Nor do I see unshod horses up on mountain trails... maybe 1 in 10 is not shod or booted.

How many endurance riders .. ride without boots or shoes? I'd be very interested to know.

[CarolU]

When I went I didn't see any.

We had a big trail ride here last summer where two horses were not shod. They rode frequently and regularly in the mountains and lived in the mountains. Their owners felt they'd be fine. And they were fine, all the way up the mountain. The face had rocky places, but mostly was hard packed dirt.

But on the way down the back side, we were on one of those paths worn in the underbrush that is almost straight down and run-off had washed most the dirt away. What was left was rocks and rocks and more rocks. The shod horses did fine. About half-way down the unshod horses kept getting off the trail in the underbrush to give their feet a break. we all felt so bad for them. What can you do? You're still miles from camp and the only way there is down the rocky trail. Those horses were VERY sore by the time we finished, even though neither had a bad chip or crack.

When we got back, we bathed and fed all the horses. All the horses ate, but those two laid down their feet hurt so bad.

Shoes have their place.

[GeorgeGuns]

I had a good chuckle last year when working at that equine hospital. There is a farrier that meets a lot of clients there, and as it was a slow day I decided to pick his brain a little. He was quite adamant about the mustang roll being silly, the whole idea of a natural trim being absurd. Well that is what he said. What he did was one of the purtiest rehab trims I have seen, huge roll, relieved quarters, heel back, no sole taken, etc. I guess he didn't want to insult the vet that was standing by with letting on to what he was doing!

The fall before I started doing this stuff, we moved in here. Farrier day was a day we were trying to pack, so Mark just pulled Mimi's shoes, thought we were going to catch up in a day or two. Miscommunication. It was a few weeks before I could get him back up. Mimi's hooves chipped up, and I got raked for not telling him (Mark) that Mimi would indeed be barefoot for more than a day or two - he said had he known that he woudl have trimmed him entirely differntly instead of a 'pasture trim'. Hmmmm. NOW I know what he was talking about.

[DSDECKERT]

If you have a farrier that does not understand how to roll a toe...he's not much of a farrier!

Does he not do "just trims"...does he shoe everything?



Yeah Terry - that's why I fired him and got a new one! He does trims, but mostly shoes. Both of my horses are diggers, so they were constantly chipping up their toes without them rolled. They are great now though!

[GeorgeGuns]

Shoes have their place

Yep, and so do boots, which would have saved those horses a whole lot of misery. They are too easy to strap to a saddle, and much easier than caring for a lamed horse that has bruised the poo out of itself. Folks like that give barefoot an undeservedly bad name.

[CarolU]

Shoes have their place

Yep, and so do boots, which would have saved those horses a whole lot of misery. They are too easy to strap to a saddle, and much easier than caring for a lamed horse that has bruised the poo out of itself. Folks like that give barefoot an undeservedly bad name.

Coreen, you are looking at this with the advantage of hindsite and condemning some very GOOD horsepeople who take excellent care of their horses! You obviously didn't pay attention to the whole story, they rode all the time in the mountains and never had a problem. Their horses' hooves did not chip or crack, they were in excellent condition for riding barefoot. Yes, in hindsight they could have bought and carried boots (2 horses x 4 boots x $30+ each), or they could have shod their horses. But when you are listening to someone who harps about their natural trimming and the hardness of Paso hooves, you don't know better until it's too late. :evil:

The point is that you can not rely on barefoot trims here if you do any amount of mountain riding (which is what it all is unless you stay in arenas). It just doesn't work.

I agree with you that MOST horses do not require shoes and few are riden enough to warrent them. But there is no hard and fast rule that all horses can be barefoot all the time, because it just is not an absolute. Horses are born with varying soft/hardness of their hooves, diet can help, but it can't fix it all the time. Even hardened hooves become damaged, bruised, or worn off in the right circumstances.

[GeorgeGuns]

ok, lets see if i got this straight...
the barefoot trim takes time!!
over many trimmings as they grow, the farrier needs to slowly roll the hooves, plus the horses needs access to different terrains

It can take time, it depends on what the hoof has to recover from. In the thread on bars etc, that horse is doing great - dont' tell him he still has his second trim to do before he is down to his real hoof. On the other hand, I have a mare I see that we have been 10 months getting her right, due to age, arthritis, cranky tude (I can't blame her), and multiple hoof pathologies - besides long bars, underslung heels, long toes, contracted hooves, she had 2-3 layers of false sole that had folded over on itself and had calloused and just made my job dificult. Some hooves merely need to get started in the right direction and they do a lot on their own between trims (this always amazes me) and some need constant nudging and more time. So, transitioning to a good hoof can take anywhere from 30 minutes to a year or more, but i find the average to be 2-3 mos.

Rolls don't need to be done gradually - follow the whiteline - if its flared, roll through it, if its not roll to it. The only gradual thing usually is callousing a sole, and that is where the varying terrain plays its part.