Paso Finos and Collection - Opinions please

[halfmoonfino]

Hey all,

I have recently been pondering the subject of Paso Finos and collection, and I was wondering what your opinions are. (Collection is the act of a horse transferring his weight and carriage to his hindquarters, thereby freeing up the forehand, raising the root of the neck, and lowering the croupe, and possibly a shortening of stride.) I know that everyone knows that, but I wanted to be clear on the definition just so we're all on the same page here. ;-)

Anyways, I know there are many schools of thought out there about gaited horses and collection. I myself am not exactly sure what I believe; I am still doing research and experimenting. I have found that when Pitty "collects up" more he does either a super smooth corto or, if his head gets down, a pure trot. But by choice, he prefers to gait any day. I've heard people say that horses will prefer to move in collection once they've been exposed to it, but Pitty doesn't....he gaits solidly. However, he does collect up easily at the walk and canter.

So are Pasos not meant to collect?
Does this mean that only "trotting" horses can work on collection?
Are Pasos only supposed to collect at the walk and/or canter?
Is there a way for them to collect at their intermediate gait, and if so, does that meant getting them to perform a true trot?
If people think Pasos gaits are uncollected, or strung out, then how do our horses get those lovely toplines I see everywhere if they work in a quote "uncollected frame" (aka being in gait)?

Just some questions/ideas to throw out there...I want to hear your thoughts...hope I haven't opened a can of worms :lol:

Thank you much!

[Cindy]

Paso Finos should be collected with a rounded back just like any other horse. What you are seeing in your horse trotting when he is collected then puts his head down is that he is getting more on the forehand. A collected Paso Fino has a higher headset than say a Thoroughbred whose neck comes straighter out of the shoulder instead up coming naturally up out of the shoulder. So, while he may still be in a collected frame, he is not truely collected as his weight is too much on the forehand. This is, by the way, a good way to condition the horse for solid movement. Most of us trainers will ride the horses relaxed in this manner and not asked them to collect all the time. They should collect when asked but should not be forced to move highly collected all the time. Balanced, yes. But not fully collected.

[Boyd R]

Cindy Porcy Self collects 80 to 90 percent of the time. You can ride her with no reighns and she will collect and gait. She only relaxes when walking. Is this good or bad. And if bad is there someway to get her to relax while moving out?

[finolover]

collection comes from the knowlede and willingness to do so, plus conformation......it's got to be between their ears....i think

[GeorgeGuns]

Lee Ziegler's book explains that gaited horses aren't really built to gait in a fully collected frame. Personally I find this a general statement that probably does apply to most gaited horses. Good gait is more than frame, the neuro-muscular tendancey to stay in a good fourbeat must be there. This in mind, true collection may be achieved over time, with conseideration to how the horse is going. If they go out of gait, its being overdone or pushed.
Just as in trotting breeds, not all horses/pasos are built for "good collection" but doing the gymnasticizing that works towards the goal is never a wrong thing to do.
I think most of what is seen today and promoted as a collected Paso is false collection - sickle hocks being usurped to give a false impression of a horse being under itself - in reality it is, but the strain on the horse is detrimental due to the source of this under-ness. Its not collection.

People also confuse "on the bit". "broken at the poll" and true collection. Honestly, a horse does not need to have a vertical headset to have good collection, it does complete the picture though. Too often we see horses that are flexed at the poll, head up, and vertical face, and people say that is a collected horse when in fact it all ends in the nec and the rest of the horse is hollowed even if those sickle hocks are physically putting the rear legs under the horse.

There are some horses that will gait no matter what frame they are in. These are genetically important horses because the neuro-muscular wiring is so strong that they can do this. Care must be taken with this as the temptation to get that collection in a very well gaited horse can knock the sense out of a human and the process can get rushed.

Can a Paso gait fully and truly collected? My answer is that some can, with care. I think that due to the conformational differences in some phenotypes of Pasos, compared to other gaiteds, that these representatives of our breed are more prone to better collection than most horses of other gaited breeds. I really like the type that looks more "spanish" or andalusian type - these horses, IMO, are better built for attaining collection and retaining good gait, in general.

jmho.

[CarolU]

I think it is very horse specific. I think a lot of horses have very natural collection and self carriage, some horses are strung out and heavy on the front end, some horses can be strung out and 'pullled' into gait, some are going to trot or troche no mater what you do, and still others will gait in natural carriage, but then will pace or trot if you try to collect farther because their back hollows out.

I DO think that every headset should be what is natural FOR THAT HORSE and that there is not one breed STANDARD headset. Some horses have higher headsets then others, some have longer necks that allow a perpendicular head, others have short necks that would restrict the latch area if you try to pull them in. Some break at the crest rathert then the poll. I like to look at a horse when it is excited in the field. THAT is the headset (and usually collection) where the horse looks best.

You know for a 'natural' gaitted breed, it really is NOT a breed standard to get totally natural gait. And THAT is really strange. Natural gait should be THE thing we breed for, and it's not anymore, it's speed of footfall.

[CarolU]

I think it is very horse specific. I think a lot of horses have very natural collection and self carriage, some horses are strung out and heavy on the front end, some horses can be strung out and 'pullled' into gait, some are going to trot or troche no mater what you do, and still others will gait in natural carriage, but then will pace or trot if you try to collect farther because their back hollows out.

I DO think that every headset should be what is natural FOR THAT HORSE and that there is not one breed STANDARD headset. Some horses have higher headsets then others, some have longer necks that allow a perpendicular head, others have short necks that would restrict the latch area if you try to pull them in. Some break at the crest rathert then the poll. I like to look at a horse when it is excited in the field. THAT is the headset (and usually collection) where the horse looks best.

You know for a 'natural' gaitted breed, it really is NOT a breed standard to get totally natural gait. And THAT is really strange. Natural gait should be THE thing we breed for, and it's not anymore, it's speed of footfall.

[halfmoonfino]

I totally agree with Coreen and Carol...you guys both said it nicely ;-)

[halfmoonfino]

I totally agree with Coreen and Carol...you guys both said it nicely ;-)

[Jasfino]

I like this article on collection.

http://www.meredithmanor.com/features/articles/drm/collection.asp

[Cindy]

Boyd, I would have to see your horse to determine if she is moving in collection with a lose rein or moving in balance with a lose rein. All horses when finished should move in balance with a lose rein. And not all horses will go into trot or trocha when relaxed. Some gait all the time when relaxed and may tend to pace if over-collected. Do you feel that she is not relaxed when moving on a lose rein?

As for Lee Zeigler's statement about gaited horses not being built to gait when fully collected, that is crap when refering to Paso Finos and one cannot make a blanket statement about all gaited breeds in that respect as Paso Finos do not have anything in common with the other gaited breeds as far as movement is concerned other that a four beat gait. It is like comparing a Shetland Pony to an Andalusian. They are different breeds with different movement, different conformation and different balance.

[CarolU]

As for Lee Zeigler's statement about gaited horses not being built to gait when fully collected, that is crap when refering to Paso Finos and one cannot make a blanket statement about all gaited breeds in that respect as Paso Finos do not have anything in common with the other gaited breeds as far as movement is concerned other that a four beat gait. It is like comparing a Shetland Pony to an Andalusian. They are different breeds with different movement, different conformation and different balance.

I really agree with this. Think about other gaited breeds, their gaits typically are big, ground covering gaits and you wouldn't collect them, nor want to. The Paso Fino gait, while it can be big and ground covering, can also be short and collected to the point of gaiting in place. The Paso Fino is very closely built to its Andalusian ancester. It is a beautiful animal when collected and 'showing off.'

[Andres V]

For me, enough collection to "help" the horse with add weight of rider plus balance and frame to help. You dont see horse fall down in nature because head set is not (what we say) is right.

I see many hrose go down trail very natural with good rider and gait so nice.

Collection like most other things in ring, if is all you focus on and go extreme it is not good.

I slightly agree that build and movement of Paso Fino does not require collection of trotting breeds.

Andres

[halfmoonfino]

I have actually had an out and out friendly "argument" with Lee Z. about Pasos versus other gaited breeds. She belives that they must be treated the same as Walkers, Peruvians etc...my argument to her was that they are much more structuraly strong, well-conformed, properly balanced, and can handle more than other breeds. As Carol said, they have such heavy Andalusian/Spanish Jennet breeding that it makes them so. I mean look at the founding breeds of Pasos and the founding breeds of the others gaited breeds. No comparison. I too believe that Pasos are in a category all their own. While Lee did explain to me her viewpoint (which had been lost in translation by the way) I still don't agree with all her philosophies....and no offense, but does it sorta bug anyone else when certain "gaited horse experts" make statements about Paso Finos and then you find out they've never even dealt with them? Not to bash trainers, but at the same time, one ought not to speak about what one knows precious little about. You know what I mean? I'd never claim to know about Missourri Fox Trotters, frankly because I've only ridden one like twice and I have virtually no experience with their gaits, personality, etc...

Ya know? I really like what everyone has said. When you're like me and hang around with ALL trotting horse people who rant about collection at the trot, it can get blurred what is really acceptable and doable for Pasos and what is right for trotters. It is a totally different thing. Gotta love my Paso family! ;-)

[pnalley]

I was going to respond to "Collection" but once you included your definition I knew I was way off... :shock:

>>Collection is the act of a horse transferring his weight and carriage to his hindquarters, thereby freeing up the forehand, raising the root of the neck, and lowering the croupe, and possibly a shortening of stride.) <<

At my farm collection is what happens. You know you go to buy 1 Paso & come home with 3. Before you know it you have 6 Paso's. Thats TRUE COLLECTION. :lol:

I do have to agree that each horse is an individual and can only do what his/her conformation allows. Of course training & fitness have a huge part to play.

[Cindy]

:lol:

[halfmoonfino]

LOL That is true collection...how silly of me! :lol: Love it!

[CarolU]

At my farm collection is what happens. You know you go to buy 1 Paso & come home with 3. Before you know it you have 6 Paso's. Thats TRUE COLLECTION. :lol:



:shock: Oh my. I'm at 7...PLUS one Peruvian. In the past I have called this "Good Horsekeeping"...i.e., I keep them ALL! ;-)

[darcy]

When riding my mare I experience a sensation unlike any other horse I have ever ridden... There is such a lightening and lifting through her shoulders and at the same time she is tucking her hind end much closer to her center of gravity, all on a loose rein. I feel like I'm floating. And to tell you the truth it was that exact reason I bought her. We still have much work to do with softening her head and neck but the sheer joy of her forward movement was enough to sell me. And really I don't want to change much about her headset I just want to get her a little more on the bit.

And Boyd, like Porcy, Mia collects herself naturally when moving in anything other than a dogwalk. I don't think she is doing it 'on purpose' because she thinks she should. I truly believe that is how she feels balanced and she does want to look pretty you know.... Are you wanting her to relax to get more extension? Mia naturally has a big stride so I don't have to worry about that part of it since I don't need to fino in place, but I believe it allows her to keep herself together for the largo better.

It sure seems to me like it would be impossible to achieve a lightened forehand with a hollow outline. Without the tension through the back helping to shift more weight to the hind end you would have the front carrying the weight of both the neck and shoulders, and with the high headset you see on most pasos you would be loading the weight right on to the front instead of helping to achieve tension through the back ligaments.

[pnalley]

OK, an honest reply to collection. But not on a Paso.

We had an awesome App mare. This horse could trot faster then most horses cantered, but it was a TROT. After we started driving her she developed this "overdrive" mode. She would be trotting, I mean haulin spotted a$$, then OVERDRIVE. Her rear end would drop (felt like 6 inches, when riding) & boom, another dimension. I'm a pretty good rider, but the impulsion was unbeliveable.

I have only seen one other horse do this same thing, and that is her 6 yr old daugter, who did it at liberty. She was just doing this huge trot as the horses acted like fools in the pasture, then OVERDRIVE. She had this amazing 'float time" . It can't be explained it must be seen or felt

True collection can be explained, but you must feel it, or you don't "get it"

BUT, collection is different for every breed and disipline.

Western pleasure people talk about collection. (not my idea).

Racking or Walker Collection

Every breed & disipline has there own ideas.


every breed & disipline has what they call "collection"

[finolover]

the first time i experienced FINO was totally unexpected...i was riding
roxanne millers mare colorina del conde, when she set up i thought she was getting ready to buck.....it gave me chills....wow what a ride.....

i was told that if she liked me, she would give me a treat...they did'nt say what to expect.....hence the name finolover :D :D

[finolover]

i've been told paso's ...fino if it's in their minds to and body conformation allows.....that it can't be trained into them, if so one of quito's previous owners
wasted lots of money on four months intensive fino training (i never heard of it) :?:

[finolover]

my first experience of collected fino was on this mare colorina del conde
i rode her many times at el tomaria, she needed exersize..it was a dirty job, but somebody had to do it :!: :shock: woohoo...i'm still in love :lol:
a capuchino daughter...at nationals

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b389/finolover/colorina.jpg