Running Martingale NPR

[Polly Aulton]

I don't usually post here and I'll probably forget to check so feel free to PM me.
We have never had a headset problem with any of our horses (particularly the pf) but we do now. We have a coming 4 TW gelding that we can't seem to get him to stop leading with his nose. As a result he will only gait a few steps before going into a trot. We are debating between using a tie-down or a running martingale. Will those of you with experience in this please offer any advice, guidance, warnings, etc., that you think this "just past novice" rider might need.
Thanks in advance.
Polly

[Terry Wallace]

When he does this...is he also hollowing his back?

Before changing any gear...has she tried to "remind him" by see-sawing the reins just a bit when he goes into trot?

What is the current headgear/bit?

[Polly Aulton]

We are using an Argentine snaffle with a curb on him. He feels like he's slightly rounded and must be or I wouldn't get any gait at all he'd go right to the trot. He looks like he's moving off the back end pretty good when other people ride him so I'm thinking that's getting his back end under him is not his problem. He is definitely not collected enuff and it could just be an age thing. Have you had that problem with young colts?
Someone suggested he might not be relaxed and we should work on that. I've never heard of that being part of a gait problem but heck, I'll try it.
Being pretty much a novice I'm trying to get him to where he should be without getting hurt in the process. The more gear I add to him the better chance I have of hitting the dirt. At least I think so. LOL
Since I'm sooooo new at this throw out any ideas you want and John and I will run down the list. I will not buy another horse that does not have professional training. And, yes, I will write that on the blackboard 200 times!
If you get a chance and know of a buyer I've got a friend with a 14.3 hand gorgeous bay gelding...very typey and priced at a measly $3000.
Polly

[CarolU]

Polly, I watched the David Leichman videos on gaited horses, getting TWH's and MFTs in gait were the only useful things on the tapes that cost $150 and are otherwise worthless (IMO). He didn't use any tack change, instead he used cavelettis to break up the gait, and shoulder-in along a fence to break up the diagonal. I worked with an MFT 2 years ago and used the fenceline method on her. It worked very well and we just added more and more time along the fence in gait until she got in better condition.

If you feel it IS a head set problem, you might try a bit other then a single joing snaffle (that WILL put your head out to relieve pressure). If you want to stick with a snaffle, you can also try a bosal tie down. I used to use one with surgical tubing (so there was give) when training WP horses to have a headset. I would tie just past the headset I wanted with the tubing, so the release was in the correct position. Make sure you work UP to time in this get-up gradually, since they have to use different muscles. Then I'd stay out of his mouth with the snaffle, use check and release.

[Terry Wallace]

Yep...I'd loose the snaffle. Good advice above... Report back please!

[Polly Aulton]

Lose the snaffle huh? I've been told the Argentine Snaffle is technically a curb bit because it has shanks. So should I lose this? He seems to respond to it better than an O ring snaffle.
Carol - You are right. I have the Lichmann tapes and they weren't worth the money. I had also forgotten about the cavalettis. I will work with all that tomorrow and let you know how it goes!
Thanks, I appreciate the help.
Polly

[CarolU]

Lose the snaffle huh? I've been told the Argentine Snaffle is technically a curb bit because it has shanks. So should I lose this? He seems to respond to it better than an O ring snaffle.
Carol - You are right. I have the Lichmann tapes and they weren't worth the money. I had also forgotten about the cavalettis. I will work with all that tomorrow and let you know how it goes!
Thanks, I appreciate the help.
Polly

Shanks or no shanks is not what makes a snaffle. A snaffle is any bit that does not use the leverage of the chin strap acting in conjuction with a port. A snaffle may or may not have shanks (I think shanks on snaffles can pinch the gums if you only pull one rein and be VERY cruel. Try it without the horse and see for yourself). A snaffle with a barrel over the joint (comfort snaffle or mullen mouth) or one with multiple joints or barrels will soften the mouth pressure and eleminate your nose out problem.

It seems to me most TWH bits have horrible long shanks for a lot of leverage. I don't think I'd use one on a horse, but they must use them for a reason, perhaps to gain a little collection. TWH's are not my breed so I am not sure why they use the tack they do.

As for the videos, I am so glad I BORROWED them and didn't pay for them. LOL But, since you have them, review the second video on correcting gait problems. It has helped with the MFTs that are very popular around here.

[GeorgeGuns]

Could you post a pic of this horse? It could be he is not built for nose-in much and needs to be approached differently to get good gait. If he is green enough, he may just not be ready for that kind of frame.

[Polly Aulton]

Okay we lost the snaffle and it made a difference. After some flexing exercises, Austin when right from a walk to a very nice flat walk. We settled for that one and worked to keep him in it for about 30minutes. By the end of the time he wasn't even bothering to forge ahead into the trot but was nicely relaxed into the flat walk. We left it at that. His nose still occasionally goes out a bit and he falters in his walk but I was able to get his head down most of the time. We'll work him some more at the flat walk, get those muscles used to it and then I guess we'll have to try the martingale to get a better headset.
I'll post a photo when I get one. I can't believe I don't have a photo of this boy.
Does this sound like a workable plan? I'm still open to suggestions. After all your last ones worked really well. :D
Polly

[CarolU]

I think it sounds GREAT and yes, a very workable plan. He'll get better at the running walk as you work him more and more. I think he'll quit nosing out soon too, probably a bit of a habit at this point.

I think I wouldn't worry about a headset until you have his gait set pretty well...or you could experiement and see what different tack does.

Sounds like you had a good day.

[cowboy ed]

lateral flexion excercises will probably help you a lot more than tack changes. that will teach him to relax better, make him a bit more supple, and able to break at the poll. just make sure to do this excercise correctly and consistently.

[Terry Wallace]

Any broken mouth bit (snaffle mouth) that has shanks...IS indeed a curb bit. Once you add shanks, you no longer have a "snaffle" bit. You now have a curb bit that provides much leverage depending on length of shank.

So Polly....yes you are correct in saying the Argentine "snaffle" IS a curb bit...it just has a broken mouth piece.

Anyway...that said... to get a headset "somewhat easier" a small soon with a shank...does not have to be a long shank....will help achieve it. The horse will be more inclined to break at the poll, and if you have ever looked at Paso Fino bits in particular....the design is such that when in the horse's mouth, it sits correctly, comfortably, when the horse breaks at the poll, and inclines the horse to seek the "right placement" of its head.

Right now, eliminating any nut-cracker effect from the mouthpiece, will let the horse think more about gaiting, and less about avoiding the bit, or worrying about what is in his mouth. Have you tried a bosal & barbada on this horse with double reins? There is MUCH benefit in double reins, no bit, to keep the horse framed up, while working on gait.

Perhaps loosing the bit entirely will help him to come into gait better, sooner. You can always bit him afterward...after you get him going well.
Use your side pull rein to turn, use your bottom (barbada or curb) rein to stop...but use them both together to help keep him framed while working on his gait. It will help keep him balanced, and that will make getting the gait easier. Once he is going well, you can drop your side rein, work off your bottom rein only...and after he masters that...he will be ready to bit....

That generally takes weeks to months..for the horse to master working off the bottom rein only.... BUT... you will then have a horse you could ride with practically nothing... like a hay twine..if needed one day!

[CarolU]

Any broken mouth bit (snaffle mouth) that has shanks...IS indeed a curb bit. Once you add shanks, you no longer have a "snaffle" bit. You now have a curb bit that provides much leverage depending on length of shank.

So Polly....yes you are correct in saying the Argentine "snaffle" IS a curb bit...it just has a broken mouth piece.


I disagree. It would be a curb ONLY if you snug up a chin strap and use the leverage the shanks provide. Only then does it work as a curb and not a snaffle.

[Terry Wallace]

You can disagree all you want.... but I urge you to check out what you are saying! Personally...I don't know of any trainers that would agree with you. Snaffles have rings or dees...they do NOT have shanks...of any length. I have heard people on here say they are using a "Tom Thumb snaffle"...but what they are really using is a broken mouth CURB.

Why would anybody use a shank bit WITHOUT a curb strap? That would render a shank bit just about "useless". It would also tend to bend up the ends of the bit-holder headstall whenever reins were pulled back.

Just check it out on line or with trainers you know, maybe Betsy McHugh for example...as she always includes this in the introduction to tack in her clinics, as I think does Juan Carlos Conde... its been years since I went to a clinic of his. My mentor & teacher Rita Hotckiss always taught this to every kid coming in for lessons.

[CarolU]

I'll stick with my definition. The difference between the two is the application of leverage. A snaffle doesn't even have to have a jointed mouth piece.

http://www.horseandridergear.com/encyclopedia/snaffle-bit.aspx

[Terry Wallace]

P.S..I did not say it HAD to have a broken mouth piece...I used that because we are speaking of broken mouth pieces.

Bet you had to look long & hard for that web definition.... sorry, but a shanked bit, with a broken mouth IS a curb!
I'm sure I can come up with a website that will differ from yours...but lets think about it this way...shanks are for leverage...if you add them to a broken mouth piece, you have now changed the dynamics of how the bit works. ;-)

Gee...that was too easy...here you go...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_bit

[CarolU]

Not according to Parelli:

(and all I did was ask Jeeves and it found the site for me)

http://www.parelli.com/info_page.php?page=article&lit_num=1&title=A%20Bit%20of%20Savvy%20When,%20Where%20and%2 0Why%20to%20Use%20a%20Bit&t=lit

This is a great article about bits, bitting, what they're used for. And although he doesn't 'define' them as such, you'll see both a straight bar and long shanked snaffles on it (he is adament that long shanked snaffles are very cruel and I agree totatlly)

[Terry Wallace]

Oh by all means..go with your "God" Parelli... !
I'll go with wisdom that came long before him...and his campaign.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one!

You see, you won't see me using a curb bit without a curb strap... I could use a regular SNAFFLE for that case!

[CarolU]

Your site says the same thing I'm saying. The difference is LEVERAGE not weather a bit is jointed or not.

A curb bit is a type of bit used for riding that uses leverage

I know, I used to believe a snaffle was any jointed bit, and a curb was any straight bar bit...but that was a long time ago. I have since learned better.

And to answer your qeustion, I have no idea why anyone would use a long shanked snaffle on a horse. Even if the curb strap is tightened, the break in the joint ruins the leverage effect.

[CarolU]

You can disagree all you want.... but I urge you to check out what you are saying! ...

Just check it out on line or with trainers you know

Hey, it was YOU who told me to check with trainers I know. I did. ;-) ;-)

To be honest with you, I don't think you can crank the curb strap of a long shank snaffle down enough to provide leverage without automatically engaging the hinge joint as if the reins are being pulled back all the time. Think about it.

[CarolU]

And here's a good article I found on the problem with long shanked 'snaffles' or Tom Thumbs. They don't function like a good snaffle because of the shanks, and don't function like a good curb, because of the joints. They just pinch and torture the horse.

http://www.todayshorse.com/Articles/TroublewithTomThumb.htm

[CarolU]

BTW - Terry, I did find this article that agrees with you:

http://www.horsekeeping.com/horse_tack/snaffle_bit.htm

(just to show that you're not alone) I'm sure this discussion has been had many times in many places.

[Cindy]

Carol, you are incorrect. A snaffle does not have a shank. A curb bit has a shank. Does not matter what the mouthpiece is. Shank or no shank is what defines snaffle or curb. If your theory is correct would that mean that if I used one of my Colombian bits without a curb chain it miraculously becomes a snaffle instead of a curb?

[CarolU]

Look at ALL the definitions on each site. The difference is leverage. If you used your spoon bit with no curb and no leverage, you would be using it like a snaffle even though it is a crub bit BECAUSE it is designed for use with the curb and the application of leverage.

Look at a straight bar bit. If it has a ring side or D-ring, it is a snaffle. If it has shanks AND a curb strap where the curb applies leverage, then it is a curb.

Everyone of those sites agree on one thing, a curb has to provide leverage.

[Cindy]

Carol, you are wrong. If you want to continue to be wrong, that is your decision. Just letting you know that you are wrong. If you are having a discussion with a horse person who knows what they are talking about and you make this statement you will look like you do not know what you are talking about. If that is OK with you, it is no sweat off my brow. Be wrong. That is your right. Just wanted to let you know in case you would rather sound like you know what you are talking about.

[CarolU]

Like I said Cindy, I think there will always be discussions on it because it is not clear cut, the jury is split. Just to show you, there are lots of "Horse people" who agree:


http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&from=R10&satitle=snaffle+bits&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&bs=Search&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search&fgtp=&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=

But, I don't think I'm wrong, and unless every bit manufacturer is wrong also, I don't think so.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Cindy]

No, there is not discussion on it. The jury is not split. It is defined how it has been defined since the beginning of bits.

[CarolU]

Okay Cindy...have it your way. I'm not sure what part about posted links of definitions and pictures of hundreds upon hundreds of long shank and Tom Thumb "snaffles" you don't see, but I do know it is pointless to try to argue with a wall.

[Cindy]

No, it is pointless to try and argue with someone who is not argueing. I have no need to argue. I have no need to convince you. You, however, seem to have a need to convince me, hence the argueing thing. It is what it is. As I said before, if you want to be wrong, be wrong. It does not bother me.

[CarolU]

http://www.gaitedhorses.net/GaitedHorsesForum/smilies/orange-brickwall.gif http://www.gaitedhorses.net/GaitedHorsesForum/smilies/fallingbrick.gif

[CarolU]

http://www.gaitedhorses.net/GaitedHorsesForum/smilies/orange-brickwall.gif http://www.gaitedhorses.net/GaitedHorsesForum/smilies/fallingbrick.gif

[GeorgeGuns]

Oh I'm having a good chuckle. WHO CARES what that kind of bit is actually called, its a torture device in hard hands, and IMO not so nice in good hands. I've always heard those argentian bits called "argentinian snaffle" not "argentinian curb". On the other hand, the english barns I've been at call tom thumbs curbs, but the westerns call them shanked snaffles. You say tomato, I say gut pain from thick skins.

Anyone want to talk about how snaffles affect saddle fit?

[cowboy ed]

so, polly, have you made any progress with this horse? anything new to share?