Worms

[Boyd R]

We had a horse here for several months that was full of round worms. We had him Fecald and came up negative but two days later the new owners found his stool in the trailer full of worms. They were told to do a double dose of Panacur with a foll0w up dose two weeks later. I was sure this horse had worms but fecals were allways neg. and I wormed him once a month with everything on the shelf.

Question is I have three others that I am convinced also have these same worms. and by the vet all should have them since they all share the same pasture but with rutine worming should not be a problem. But since these three just wont seem to fill out have small rumps and unpropotionate pot bellies. I went ahead and wormed all of mine in the same manner. I am seeing no worms exiting in the fecal.

1 should I see worms

2 how long should it take

Also I have never seen dispensed worms after wormings. I know in dogs you do.

[Carol Nelson]

Are these new horses, Boyd. I am convinced that when a new horse comes to an area, it must develope an immunity to the parasites in that area. When we first moved to this place in Texas, previously it had been grazed by cows, and was overgrown and wild. My horses showed worms in their manure within a couple of months. (This was coming from New Mexico where they were on virtual drylot all the time with no grass...and no parasites either). With fastidious worming (and I only alternate Ivermectin and the Fenbenazole) and meticulous grooming of our pastures, we no longer seem to have a problem with parasites. I did see worms in my horses manure though...both the bot larva and the bloodworm or threadworm. But now that we've gotten the pastures under control, I never see either anymore, even though we still have the bot flies.
I would usually see the worms right after worming, and then in a few days, no more worms so I took it that that was the dead and dying worms I was seeing. It did take a year or more to bring it all under control though.
One thing that many do is that they spread their manure over their pastures. If you don't live in a hot dry climate that dries up that manure fast...that is not a good thing to do when controlling parasites. Another thing people usually don't know is that in the southern and warmer states...parasites multiply more rapidly in the winter months and those are the months that you should be more concerned about regular worming...it's very hard for parasites to survive in a hot, sunny, dry environment, rather they like cooler, moist, cloudier weather. Sometimes in the wintertime, I worm every six weeks instead of the proverbial eight. And I ALWAYS alternate wormers to avoid parasite resistance.
The rule of thumb is the more lush, tall green grass...the more chance of parasites.
As far as all the new combination wormers...I don't use them...simply because I'm from the old school, I guess...and figure that Ivermectin and Fenbenazole (Panacur or Safeguard) have been around almost as long as the parasites...grin...and they are tried and true with no problems. I have not heard the same about some of these new products on the market...plus they are expensive!

[Carol Nelson]

Just to add to the above, if you do see worms, what I do is to worm them with the Ivermectin, wait two weeks, and then worm them with the Fenbenazole...with no ill effects. You can throw a little Fastrack (a probiotic) in their feed to help their guts.
But one thing you will notice...if you see any change in your horse's attitude or health...like depression, lethargy, pot-bellied look, thick coat, etc., even diarrhea...try worming them. You will see a marked improvement. I can always tell when my horses need worming...they just get a little hangdogged looking...and after worming...they pick right up again.
(makes me wonder about some of my neighbor's horses that NEVER get wormed..... :roll: )

[Terry Wallace]

Big bellies on horses can be caused by too much roughage, and may not be related to worms at all. If your horses are on a regular worming schedule...every 6 to 8 weeks...with Ivermectin..you may never see any worms passed because they don't get the chance to get "that big".

Horses need to be exercised to get in really good shape to where the spine isn't sticking up and the hips looking like "rafters".

Last week, I went to try to identify a Paso Fino for a lady near by. The horse had a very big belly..due to being starved for two years, and getting nothing but poor quality hay/roughage and likely not being wormed in that time period.

On my way home..I realized...I knew this horse from about five years ago...he is a "shadow" of his former "robust" self. He is/was a performance gelding with lots of hind quarter...now he is rafter hipped and his spine is the "peak" of his topline. To get him back like he used to be will primarily take good feed and EXERCISE... he would need to be ridden about 4 times a week. I think he would "muscle back up", but it will take time and work to get him there, and it will take time & work to KEEP him there.

[TrueStepPaso]

Well said...er, I mean written Terry. I agree about the big belly, small rump thing. Yes worms could be a contributing factor, but alot of horse in that description are just not exercised enough....their abdominal muscles are slack, and need to be toned. They need to be ridden properly, using their hindquarters, and building their topline & rump.
And it is certainly WORK to keep them there. ;-)

[Carol Nelson]

But worms have been SEEN in the manure...so they know this is the problem. ;-) :smile:

[motorgypsy]

After you've done the panacur power pack (use generic - much cheaper), give them a week or two off and then hit them with moxidectin (Quest) but be sure you know their weight. Many worms are resistant to the old wormers. A lady on another forum lost at least three horses to small strongyles before she used Quest. The vet did a float and got the actual worms and Quest was the only thing that killed them. It was amazing to see photos before and after the worming with Quest. I don't use it unless I see a problem. We use daily wormer and our guys come up clean and are plenty fat but we used Quest on three who have never been totally where they should be on the food they eat and I've seen a significant difference. I'm going to get a microscope though to do fecal checks and do floats for the actual worms because they can kill.

[LynnG]

If you have access to a microscope, it is easy enough to do your own fecal samples on horses. You'll see the worm eggs in the manure salt water sample, and then you can identify the types by their shape, color, etc. Then you can decide which wormer will be most effectve. What I have found by doing this is:

Horses on daily strongid can still have worms

Horses that have developed a natural immunity (ex. one teenage mare raised here on a regular worming program) will not have many worm eggs at all vs other newer and younger horses that haven't developed a natural immunity and show lots even on the same pasture area.

[Terry Wallace]

Fecals on worms are a so-so indicator of worm load. You could have a different read on your fecal sample from one day to the next.

Just like what Boyd pointed out....they had a fecal...and it was negative, then the next day or two..there were worms in the manure.
These would be fairly mature worms that had been there long enough to mature. The fecal count looks for worm eggs and the very smallest of worm..like a bloodworm. Its not going to neccesarily tell you if there is a mature worm load present.

I don't have much faith in fecal counts on manure...seen them be way off too many times..its kind of like a health certificate! The horse appears healthy the day you get the certificate..and can be sick within days... and still have a "current" 30 day health cert.... A regular worming program is the best bet. If you want to, you can give a tube of Ivermectin, one tube a week for 4 weeks in a row and be realtively sure you have killed not only mature worms, but encysted worms and worm eggs...the whole life cylec of the worm.

At the U of Georgia... a mare there was given 1 tube of ivermectin PER DAY..for five days in a row...just to make darn sure her allergy problem was not related to worms. If you feel your horses are infested, but otherwise healthy...you may want to worm them once a week or once every two weeks to try to destroy the colony at all stages.

Just as Lynn points out..daily wormer does not take care of all worms your horse may have. A purge wormer along with daily....is a better bet.
One thing you DON'T want to do...is try to keep a horse free of worms...that is totally unnatural for a horse. It is worms that helps horses have STRONGER immune systems... without some worm load..no matter how small.. the horse's immune system will suffer.

[LynnG]

Terry, I see a big difference bewteen the vets doing the fecals.. always came back negative, and me doing them myself...and I can see what types of worms are actually in there laying eggs. Then I can structure my deworming program from there. Makes me not believe the vets report as Negaive ... like absolutely no worms at all....and this always be before actual deworming.

[motorgypsy]

We do paste worm in addition to daily but don't use Quest unless we think we need to.

[Boyd R]

Ok so I take it I should be seeing worms passed. Which I am not. And never have in any of my horses. Now I only got to check the evening of the worming and day after. the last 2 days I left before sunrise and got home after it set.

So how long will it take for them to pass and for how many days.

the horses in question is Pluma, Noche, Maggie. These three for whatever just look wormy and can not put any weight or muscle on them. Of course Pluma is not being worked. But Noche and Maggie are. Noche has looked this way since arriving going on a year now. and Maggie filled out pretty well and over the last 6 months is dropping. I thought Pluma was going through that ugly stage but after seeing others her age she looks so puny in comparison.

Mgs we have used quest on the known wormy horse and did not appear to help. The vet did say that round worms are out of the digestive track at some pointe in the development and that is why we have to reworm in two weeks. Also these horses are on good pasture but not overgrown and we drag the pastures weekly to cut down on worm potential.

[Jasfino]

After I wormed the last two times with Ivermectin.. I have found small red worms in the manure.. in the same three horses. The others are clear of them. What does that mean? Wouldnt they all have them? They usually show up the day after I worm in the manure. We have 14 horses and it is always the same three.

[Terry Wallace]

Boyd...you may not see any worms. A horse makes about ten piles of manure a day..if you miss one pile...you may miss seeing any worms...
If your horses already get wormed every 6 or 8 weeks...you may never see mature worms in the manure.

As far as filling out and developing... it will depend on the confo of the horse as to if you will ever see muscling up over the top of the hip...or a back that doesn't peak at the spine. The phenotype of the Paso may dictate that it will always be "rafter hipped" for example..and never develop what would be considered a "QH butt"...or a back that doesn't peak... sometimes it just is not in the genetics to be "overly developed".