PFHA - ARE YOU LISTENING?????

[SandyMM]

This is my experience with the events that led up to the finals in the largo race this year at the 2006 National PFHA show.

Prior to the 'early' (first) deadline for regular national show entries, I talked to both the PFHA office and show secretary (?) Marilyn...

The PFHA office - several different people - told me that there would only be 10 entries allowed and that the stalls would be 'comped' only IF the horse actually entered the largo race. I was told at least twice that it didn't matter if the horse was already entered in other PFHA classes or whether the horse was there only for the largo race. (THere were at least 2 people in the largo race who did not get their stalls comped - because they weren't in the first 10 to enter - THIS was never mentioned to these entries prior to the race.)

The show secretary (Marilyn ?) herself told me she knew of no plans to comp stalls. Someone at the PFHA office - possibly Stephanie - told me that Marilyn probably hadn't been notified of the final 'rules' for the largo race.

I went ahead and sent in Pete's entries, a request for 2 stalls, and a tack stall and a note that we would have an additional largo horse there, but didn't know how to fill out the paperwork work since I didn't know if there was a class number or what was specifically required and no one could tell me.

I got confirmation for Pete's entries, his stall and _two_ tack stalls (all at $200 pop).... we brought Bronce anyway. At the show secretary's office at Nationals, they told me Pete was '9' and Bronce was '10' in the largo race entries.

Somewhere along the line we heard that the race had been opened up to an additional 7 horses. We knew that info by the time we got to Nationals, but there were others who didn't know it had been opened up to additional horses (these people had no reason to believe there would be heat races) and others who _would_ have entered had they known it had been opened up to more than 10 horses.

There was NO notification of heat races that we were aware of until we had finished feeding mid-Saturday morning (and we were either in the barns or in the main arena area all week from open to past closing time). The first word that we heard about heat races (and we had been asking at the PFHA office in the main arena and elsewhere all week long) was when Greg heard an announcement in the barns that largo racers should be checking in for their heat races! Our horses hadn't even finished eating breakfast!

Greg hurried to tell me and I dropped everything and ran for the barn to saddle up, dust the horses off, and beat it to the warm-up ring. When we got there, there was one other person. Gradually a few wandered in. Ed T said he had seen the heat breakdowns taped to the show office door that morning, I believe. We had been trying to find out when 'the' largo race was going to be held most of the week and heard a dozen different versions of times. (This complete lack of reliable communications from PFHA continued right up until a few minutes before the final race!!!!!)

As heat racers gradually got the word and assembled in the warm-up ring, a discussion with the show manager started with the husband of one of the racers wanting to know why there wasn't better communications about the heat race times. Greg and I ambled over to listen in and got right into the middle of it. The answer was that PFHA didn't know how many horses were entered until the night before (Friday night?) and so didn't know if there would be heat races and/or how many and/or when they would be held - so I guess they thought Saturday morning would be a great time... Who cared if nobody knew ahead of time....

IF _I_ knew there were 17 entered on Monday - how can PFHA claim _they_ didn't know? And if they even _thought_ there might be heat races, wouldn't a _responsible_ show committee slot at least a placeholder for the heat races... and NOTIFY the entrants publicly??????

Picture this.... Fino Stallions - your class is 'sometime' Saturday - probably late. So - you sleep in a little later than usual Saturday morning, go feed, and only then find that they decided to have a 'pre-class' to make the cut to the final 8 early Saturday morning and sorry - you missed it - you're knocked out of the class entirely.... bet that would go down like the proverbial lead balloon.

Now I can say from my perspective that this isn't sour grapes - Greg, Pete, Bronce, and I all made the heat races and the finals...... but stop and think about the other 5. +/- 30% of the horses entered for the largo race didn't make it into the ring. I don't know why - for sure - except for one, but even those of us who were _trying_ to get information daily had to scramble like crazy to get there on time.

My point to CJ and the show manager is that if PFHA accepts entries in a National event/entertainment (CJ insisted it _wasn't_ an 'event' - guess wearing a number in a scheduled largo race isn't 'worthy' of being called an 'event'), then the PFHA members who follow the rules to become part of that event/entertainment are due the same respect that every other dues-paying participanting PFHA member receives (or _should_ receive) - maybe more because most of the largo race entrants weren't there for other paid classes. They had nothing to gain with points, money, or awards (except for the winner's trophy which remains in the PFHA office) - and whether they showed in regular classes or not, they represented the _THOUSANDS_ of paying PFHA members who choose _not_ to show, yet feel a particular affinity for the type of Pasos represented in the largo race. When CJ said... "PFHA ... ", I said I am PFHA! I am a dues paying member.... I am PFHA! And so are all the people who signed up their horses for the largo race. WE want the largo and WE - ARE - PFHA!

85% of PFHA is the elderly gentleman who still rides his Paso stallion through the woods with his friends, the 9 year old who takes his horse swimming in the lake, the mom and her daughters who trail ride on weekends, and the old lady on the blind Paso in the largo race! And yes, PFHA is also the show exhibitor, the teenager in equitation, the ammy owner who qualified his backyard gelding for the Nationals on his own, and the professional trainer in the Fino Stallions class, but what makes one more important to the national office than another? Nothing! If the show people pay more, they also receive more - they are paying for their participation, ribbons, awards, advertising bragging rights... They pay - they receive. The non-show people pay less - so they get _nothing_? Not even respect...?

To me - it is a respect issue and PFHA clearly showed little or no respect to the largo race participants in that we were not afforded the same basic courtesies extended to other PFHA members.

PFHA's threat was to 'only allow a certain number to enter next year'...
I'd like to see them restrict participation in other 'events' - sorry only 10 fino stallions next year...

In fairness, I must commend the people in the ring who actually judged/MC'd the heat races and events. They were enthusiastic and involved. I appreciated the fact that they attempted to give the race the attention it deserved once we actually made it to the ring. And those of you who were there HEARD the response from the crowd... it went WILD!

Considering the OBVIOUS enthusiasm of the crowd for this event, here's what _I_ want:

1. Continued scheduling of the largo race and heat races fo registered Paso Finos and current members in good standing at every National show
2. Guidelines for registration, stabling, and scheduling available at the same time as all other National show entry/class information is desseminated.
3. No limit on the number of entries.
4. Heat races scheduled and announced publicly and in writing in a designated area prior to finals. No heat races on the day of finals.
5. No points; entry fee would be fine to help offset costs.

These are just my suggestions - yes, I'll be more active - it's personal now...

[paintedhorizon]

BRAVO!!! BRAVO!!!! And this is my FIRST year and I saw all the problems going on.

I'm glad to know this though!

There was NO notification of heat races that we were aware of until we had finished feeding mid-Saturday morning (and we were either in the barns or in the main arena area all week from open to past closing time). The first word that we heard about heat races (and we had been asking at the PFHA office in the main arena and elsewhere all week long) was when Greg heard an announcement in the barns that largo racers should be checking in for their heat races! Our horses hadn't even finished eating breakfast!

I've had more than one person say "there was plenty of notice" and yet, you Sandy, a vendor, who was there all week, never heard it!

I agree with all your rules! I'm not a PFHA member YET but want to help in ANY way I can to get the Largo race more organized. It was SO disorganized this time it's not even funny! I know LexiMel said she wanted to do something about it as well.

[LynnG]

I have the (Glenn Petty) show manager's contact info if his group is contracted again next year, so maybe it needs to be taken to him enough ahead of time for organization of details. He's here near Raleigh.

[Pasogirlz]

GO SANDY!
They really need to quit w/the excuses on this race. I'm glad there was a demand for it and more than 10 entries.... 8-)

[SandyMM]

"there was plenty of notice"
Plenty of notice to the people who were in the first ten and told there would be a limit of ten and showed up on Saturday - expecting the race to the run that evening? Not plenty of notice for them...

Plenty of notice for the people who paid for a stall, searched everywhere for reliable information regarding time and place of _anything_ to do with the largo race - only to come in Saturday morning and just squeak in int time to make the heat race?

Plenty of time for the people who were in the barns and/or arena nearly 18 hours a day, made a concerted effort to get reliable information from Day 1, got the nearly unintelligible announcement over the barn P.A. system mid-Saturday morning, and had to pull their horses's noses out of their breakfast feed buckets to go race in the heat races?

Plenty of notice would be a slotted time between specific classes PRINTED IN THE SHOW BULLETIN. PRINT A SLOT for the heat races - if they weren't needed they could be cancelled. Just give people a reasonable chance to make the class... Can you imagine if everybody who entered a Nationals class had to show up the first day and had NO CLUE when their class was - and when they complained that they missed or almost missed their class due to poor communications were told they should have listened for the announcements?

(Remember - this isn't the same as missing a scheduled class because a couple of classes were short/combined or had no entries - this is because there was _NO_ scheduled time on which to make a best guess....)

[Mellifluous]

I am working on a proposal to take forward to begin negotiations with the PFHA for next year's largo race.

Let the suggestions fly!

[SandyMM]

My suggestion is that they authorize a committee made of past/present largo racers (for starts) with sole authority over the largo race next year. A chairman can present rules to be followed (including some way to remove non-gaiting horses and those who break gait multiple times...) and PFHA should be bound to find a way to _make_ them work - most importantly:
1. Publicize the rules/schedule/entry info in advance in the PFHW like all other rules and show schedules and adhere to the publilshed information!
2. Charge an entry fee - apparently $$$ = respect
:roll:

Sign me up - glad to help... We can have a trail ride weekend here and brainstorm....

[baileyholc]

Sign me up - glad to help... We can have a trail ride weekend here and brainstorm....
I'm game.

I agree with everything that has been said.

I also think that their should be a reword. If your going to give money to be in the race you should at least be able to take home a trophy or ribbon or something. I know their is a trophy but the winner can't take it home. They only get their names put on it.

[cristy]

Amen Sandy! That is a big bunch of CRAP!!!!! PFHA should be embarressed for handling any fascit of the "NATIONAL SHOW" that poorly, who cares if it is pointed or not. It truly does show how they see the "nonshow people". We really need to send them a message about their PFHA members! (you know that 85%) Let me know, I'll help too! :mad:

[Tami Pinell]

Good luck guys - I'll stand behind you all 1010%. Any event at the nationals that bring more than two horses together not only deserves to be added to the roster - IT MUST BE TREATED AS ALL OTHER EVENTS ARE (PERIOD)
There is no difference between a largo race and a trail class - they should be treated equally (period) and if a person won - they "deserve" to take a trophy HOME!
As a BREEDER of REGISTERED PFHA horses - Largo horses are a top dollar paso fino - I have sold for a total of more money largo type horses than I have showring horses. Largo horses are a part of the paso fino breed and "must" be recognized in our National Show! The Arab, QH, Fresian, and other big breeds show ALL potentials of their breed in their National Shows - heck, even the North American Spotted Draft National Show does! They need to get their ACT together, we are here in AMERICA, not in a foreign country where they do not show largo horses in a fino show... if PFHA does not want to recognize the pleasure part of the Paso Fino Breed - then they need to STOP advertizing it - allow it to branch off so those beautiful pasos may have the BEST RECOGNITION - not some half way thing. I don't care who is the blame for this at the Nationals - it is the responsibility of the President of the Association to come down hard and not let this happen again.

[paintedhorizon]

I am willing to do all that I can to help! You guys know that!!

I'm so glad to see how everyone is all for that, but we need to keep this ACTIVE. Not let it just die out.

[SandyMM]

If your going to give money to be in the race
This year there was no entry fee, PFHA said they would comp 10 stalls - and it was _strongly_ emphasized that the horse _must_ actually compete in the largo race to get a free stall. There were at least 2 that competed in the final race that were _not_ comped... So.... at most PFHA comped only _6_ stalls, because there were only 8 in the final race.... or - did they comp horses that were in the heat races, but not the final, but _were_ in the first ten to sign up (that was not a stated criteria...)

You can see how messy this was....

The worst part of all of this is that PFHA couldn't make it more inconvenient on the largo race participants 'if' they tried. If other members were treated this way before and during the show, you'd hear more than a complaint on a bulletin board... Again - I have to say that _once in the ring_ - all went 'relatively' well and the ring people were great. The major problems went on before the show and before the races.

What business can afford to ignore 85% of its membership/constituency/customers and yet continue 'business as usual' for long? The day is not too far away when the majority will regain control of its registry and national organization - or leave and reform - taking all that 'insignificant' money with it...

[motorgypsy]

I hate to say I TOLD YOU SO - No I don't.

We almost missed the heats ourselves and our horses knew we were stressed out and this very likely contributed to their much slower than usual performance. They did so much better last year when the race was at least a bit closer to the pre advertised time. We stayed up extremely late the night before and after the sausage breakfast we were going back to the motel Sat. for a nap until noon. If we hadn't stopped by Sandy's booth to check on some shirts we had ordered and been there when Greg showed up and told her heats were being held we would have missed it. It's ridiculous!

Now back to heats. Any largo horse that can't do two miles at a largo, one mile at a time with a long break between, is not a true largo horse so I would greatly prefer that the heats be held on the same day as the race. They could be held first thing in the morning or at lunch time which would still leave lots of recovery time for the race. The reason is this - two years ago we had planned to come to nationals on Wednesday anda the largo race was schedules for Sat. Monday we got word that there were heats and that we had to be there by Tuesday for the race. It was horrendous getting everything rearranged, get a horse sitter for Tuesday and so on. Kyle got a migraine and I was so stressed Kalua threw a bucking fit and almost ran over a judge. When the race is going to be on Sat it's extremely difficult to discover that the heat will be on Tuesday. Many people can't come during the week. Friday night before is a possibility but the show lasted very late that night. The other alternative is to have the heats in the outside arena in the morning but then alternate judges would have to found. The Saturday lunchtime would be fine as long as we know in advance!!!!!! Gee it's so simple to just tell people in advance when the heats are going to be held!!!:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Now on comping the stalls - we were in the heats but not the finals and ours were comped. We were in the first ten entries by the way. We prefer first ten who actually participate be comped and as it gains in popularity they should comp everyone who participates. Wouldn't that be nice!!!

There has to be a better way to deal with breaking gait. Stopping in the middle of a race is not a good thing.

It was great fun and regardless of the problems we would strongly recommend that anyone with a solid largo horse enter!!! The audience LOVES it and you will too!!!

[paintedhorizon]

Just b/c they can doesn't mean they should be made too. IMO, that's too much stress on a horse.

Any largo horse that can't do two miles at a largo, one mile at a time with a long break between, is not a true largo horse so I would greatly prefer that the heats be held on the same day as the race. They could be held first thing in the morning or at lunch time which would still leave lots of recovery time for the race. The reason is this - two years ago we had planned to come to nationals on Wednesday anda the largo race was schedules for Sat. Monday we got word that there were heats and that we had to be there by Tuesday for the race.

IMO, I think heats should be held the day before the actual race. Again, that's just my opinion.

[EnriqueDWH]

I had my gelding entered in the Country Pleasure Class, which was
held after the largo heats Sat. Afternoon. However, on the class
schedule, Largo Heats were not listed, therefore, I estimated a time
for my class (114) and imagine my dismay when I realized that my
class would be held much later than anticipated.
I did not work my horse that morning thinking of an approx. class
start time would be 1230, and in actual fact it started HOURS later
than anticipated. Of course, I yelled and hooted flat out for the
horses in the largo heats, as it was the highlight of the show!
I agree the judges and participants were enthusiastic and highly
entertaining. Anything this good, needs to have places shown on
the class schedules so the audiences can plan to attend, and other
exhibitors know how to estimate thier class start times.
The LARGO RACE COMPETITORS ROCK. Thank you.

[SandyMM]

Thanks for your support Enrique!

I had my gelding entered in the Country Pleasure Class, which was held after the largo heats Sat. Afternoon. However, on the class
schedule, Largo Heats were not listed, therefore, I estimated a time
for my class (114) and imagine my dismay when I realized that my
class would be held much later than anticipated.

You point out two major problems that infringe on the other exhibitors and even those who _were_ in the Largo Race and _also_ in Country Pleasure.

PFHA's failure to be more professional in scheduling _all_ activities caused problems with exhibitors in succeeding classes having a reasonable expectation of class time (with the usual caveat that some classes will take more or less time to complete) and denied many spectators the right to watch the classes/events they were interested in seeing. Greg and Pete had not only the heat race, but finals - followed by Country Pleasure.... that was a fun ride for Greg on a horse who had been raced twice in a matter of hours then asked to go in one of the the calmest of Paso classes!

I also heard - both on this board and from comments made at my booth - that there were some spectators who drove a considerable distance mainly to watch the largo race and either missed it entirely or only saw a portion. There were people _at the show_ who had no idea it was going on and only happened to get back in time to see a portion of it.

With the interest generated this year and the increasing quality of gait and participation - it is safe to say that this was a great success by spectator and exhibitor standards. What else does PFHA need to get on the ball?

Again - thanks for your comments Enrique and welcome to the board! I'm sorry the lack of organization threw off your planning for your class, but thanks for supporting us!

[motorgypsy]

Michelle our breed go on all day cattle drives and endurance rides with no problems. It may be stressful to the rider but it's a walk in the park for the horses. Our guys pulse down in five minutes after a fifteen mile ride at a combination of largo and canter. A mile is nothing to them. Their recovery time is fantastic. If you KNOW when it's going to be held you can have your horse in shape. The entire heat didn't last but perhaps five minutes. Trail rides do an hour at a largo very frequently. At least the ones we go on do. Ten minutes in one day at a largo is not a lot of exercise for a largo horse. Fino horses do more than that with those legs going so fast you can't see them move. I have much more concern about the turns though and wouldn't put a horse younger than at least five in a race unless I slowed significantly in the turns because they can be hard on the horse. There is strategy both to win and to protect your horse. It's like playing tennis in a high wind. It affects everyone equally and you hope the best one wins! The easier it is to participate, the more participants we'll get so let's please keep it as simple as possible.

[SandyMM]

Any largo horse that can't do two miles at a largo, one mile at a time with a long break between, is not a true largo horse

Not so... it may be a horse that can largo but who is in several other classes at the show - some of them very close to the races - except of course we weren't given the courtesy afforded all other competitors who at least knew the _order_ of their classes if not the actual time....

There a lot more things going on in a largo race than a simple two mile ride - even if it is spread out into 2 parts... I have yet to be slammed into the middle of a Paso sandwich at the beginning of a trail ride!

[paintedhorizon]

HAHAHAHAHA And you came out unscathed! Go Bronce!

[quote]I have yet to be slammed into the middle of a Paso sandwich at the beginning of a trail ride!

MGs, not all pasos are ridden like yours. Not everyone has the TIME to do that. And, as Sandy mentioned, some largo racers are actually riding in classes as well, like Greg was.

I understand you saying that you think it should be, but what's the big deal about having the heats the day before?

[motorgypsy]

I mentioned Friday Michelle but Friday is a hugely busy day. Of course it could be held outside Frday which I mentioned also. But you have the heat problem then. And just FYI we don't ride our horses a lot right now (we can't tolerate high heat, have 14 horses in three different locations and are so busy we're lucky to ride once a week so don't think retired means leisure) - they are just pastured - but we are a breed famous for endurance. We've pulled several horses out of the pasture and done a 15 and pulsed down in 5 minutes. They really are amazing horses. If the heat is on the same day - you plan your strategy. The arena is air conditioned which makes a big difference. Heat is the enemy, not physical work.

Sandy - sorry Bronce became a sandwich but he sure didn't look tired at the end. We'll deal with whatever the rule is anyway. I know it's a problem if the horses are ridden in other classes - which I did mention before - but TUESDAY???? When the real race is SATURDAY??? and not to tell us until late Sunday night???? That was the pits and they'll do it again if we let them.

[Soltera]

Heats or no, it would be a real disservice to the breed to cancel largo racing.

The breed is now shown at some degree of self-collected headset. The Largo Race is the only example I've seen so far of extreme extension, or am I missing something? The jump in versatility doesn't count, I think, unless it becomes an oxer, water jump or puissance.

The bona fides of the breed seem to always refer to it's roots on the ranch, in the bull ring and on the field of battle (going back in time). Each of those uses require both ends of the collection spectrum, sometimes seconds apart.

Or did the early breeders in the Latin American areas always have several horses? My understanding is that they strove to breed a versatile gaited horse, like the Morgan (sometimes gaited) or Rocky Mountain horse. Did they have one type for cattle herding, one for family buggy and produce buckboard, one for getting the owner/manager quickly around the hacienda and one for showing off in town? Should we not include both ends of the spectrum at shows?

[CarolU]

I sometimes feel I repeat myself again and again for the exercise of typing.

1) The membership (not PFHA) voted that the Largo race will not be an official class at the National Show. If you want it done officially, then YOU have to write up a proposed rule for it and submit it just like any other proposed rule change for the membership to vote on. This is not PFHA's job, not the National Show Chairman's job, but YOUR job IF you really want it changed.

2) As "Entertainment" it was left entirely up to US to organize and present an organized entertainment program to the Show Committee NOT LATER THEN JANUARY FIRST of the year of the show, so they can put it in the schedule and the show program. No one did this for this show (and we've KNOWN about this since last year's race). Soooooo, is someone stepping forward to organize it for next year's show?

3) When NOBODY organizes something, it doesn't get organized. The Show committee has a whole bunch of stuff to do to put on the National Show, and the Largo race is one tiny little entertaining blip on their radar screen. Think about it, if none of US cares enough to organize it, how can we stand back now and throw stones at the show committee for not doing it the way we'd like it???

I met with CJ and Steahanie last year about the race and presented their proposals to this group. I must have asked ten times for a Volunteer to get the race organized...no one ever volunteered.

Largo Racers, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Don't sit here and expect PFHA to do this for you. You are part of PFHA. There is a way to do it exactly like you want it done, but it's up to YOU to do it.

Most of you are Christians...there is a great saying, "The Lord helps those who help themselves."

Poop or get off the pot.

[motorgypsy]

You're very correct Carol but consider what happened when the suggested rules were submitted. Did they use them? No. As you mentioned - in the scheme of things the largo race is so insignificant they just do whatever is easiest.

The demo format is really fun though and this year had very good participants and lots of audience participation and enthusiasm too!!!

[Mellifluous]

I think that Michelle and I will have things under control for next years race. You give us suggestions, we turn them into rules/regs/scheduling suggestions for the PFHA. Are you cool with all of this Michelle?

Consider this a "step forward" for me. I am tired of everyone griping. The goal is to get a largo race proposal together to present to the PFHA before December. That should leave some time to make any revisions that they would like to see. I realize that everyone will not be happy with whatever it comes out to be, but anything that is more organized and safe will be a big step forward!

It would be nice to get some sponsors to donate some prizes.

[CarolU]

Hooray Mel and Michelle!!! :notworthy

Thank you both!!! :hug

[paintedhorizon]

Perfectly fine by me Mel! I want to do whatever I can to assist.

However, let me ask this, will they even consider info from me since I'm not a member?

[Terry Wallace]

Mel..I *might* be interested in donating a prize...like an artwork...like a painting/portrait or bass relief sculpture type wall hanging of the winning horse....

Something in the say...$300 area...

[paintedhorizon]

I'm sure I know of something that could be donated as well, when the time comes, maybe to the 2nd place rider.

I will say, however, that Mel and I can't do this alone, especially since I am new and neither of us have raced! :lol: But I'm all for it!

[Mellifluous]

Perfectly fine by me Mel! I want to do whatever I can to assist.

However, let me ask this, will they even consider info from me since I'm not a member?

I can deal with the PFHA. I am a member and plan to keep it current. Getting things to them is the easy part. The hardest part will be getting things together to present to them!

The best thing to do is take care of all of the mess and headache and get a nice organized program together. I think the PFHA just does not want to have to deal with all of the logistics. They probably would be more supportive if they knew that there was someone who would be glad to take care of everything as long as the PFHA cooperated on their end with getting the heats and race integrated into the show program. My question is who would get the judges for the race?

[Mellifluous]

Mel..I *might* be interested in donating a prize...like an artwork...like a painting/portrait or bass relief sculpture type wall hanging of the winning horse....

Something in the say...$300 area...

Well that would be very nice...let's see what sort of race we can pull together for next year!

[Pasogirlz]

I sometimes feel I repeat myself again and again for the exercise of typing.

1) The membership (not PFHA) voted that the Largo race will not be an official class at the National Show. If you want it done officially, then YOU have to write up a proposed rule for it and submit it just like any other proposed rule change for the membership to vote on. This is not PFHA's job, not the National Show Chairman's job, but YOUR job IF you really want it changed.

2) As "Entertainment" it was left entirely up to US to organize and present an organized entertainment program to the Show Committee NOT LATER THEN JANUARY FIRST of the year of the show, so they can put it in the schedule and the show program. No one did this for this show (and we've KNOWN about this since last year's race). Soooooo, is someone stepping forward to organize it for next year's show?

3) When NOBODY organizes something, it doesn't get organized. The Show committee has a whole bunch of stuff to do to put on the National Show, and the Largo race is one tiny little entertaining blip on their radar screen. Think about it, if none of US cares enough to organize it, how can we stand back now and throw stones at the show committee for not doing it the way we'd like it???

I met with CJ and Steahanie last year about the race and presented their proposals to this group. I must have asked ten times for a Volunteer to get the race organized...no one ever volunteered.

Largo Racers, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Don't sit here and expect PFHA to do this for you. You are part of PFHA. There is a way to do it exactly like you want it done, but it's up to YOU to do it.

Most of you are Christians...there is a great saying, "The Lord helps those who help themselves."

Poop or get off the pot.
I agree w/you on many points here Carol. ;-)

We don't have anyone to blame but ourselves.

For example, the Gold Cup had a very organized plan for the Largo races, but they had very little interest or entries. :-? They had heats scheduled and posted...but w/NO or only 3 entires...there is no need for heats.
To be very honest...the only reason they put the Largo race down was b/c I asked them to and told them how much it meant to you folks.

I do not agree w/the way things were handled at the end of the show. But that is another matter. I think if the Largo racers had shown the same interest at GC as they did at Nationals, they would have been well recieved by the show staff. JMHO.

The next rule change vote is in Jan 08. So my suggestion to everyone is to get busy and submit before the deadline....You have plenty of time now to work out the bugs and make the Largo Race a class or w/e you want to make it.

For the upcoming year....2) As "Entertainment" it was left entirely up to US to organize and present an organized entertainment program to the Show Committee NOT LATER THEN JANUARY FIRST of the year of the show, so they can put it in the schedule and the show program. No one did this for this show (and we've KNOWN about this since last year's race). Soooooo, is someone stepping forward to organize it for next year's show?



GET BUSY PPL :shock:

[Candice Burger]

Well, after the fiasco of trying to get a trip to PR together, here's one piece of advice Mel:

DO IT ANYWAY NO MATTER WHAT BY THE END OF DECEMBER :!: :!: :!:

I waited for information, suggestions, replies, etc. If I had planned the trip for myself it would have been a done deal. All deadlines were ignored, postponed, etc. until there was nothing to plan. And this started Feb '06 with the trip for end of Aug '06. I learned a very, very valuable lesson, which was:

DON'T WAIT JUST DO IF YOU WANT TO GET IT DONE. Then everyone who didn't have a say surely will in January. :razz: And those that wait til the last minute? They can join up to race or hold their own. I suspect it will be the former not the latter--wine, cheese, crackers and all.

[paintedhorizon]

Oh, I'm sure there will be some that won't be happy! LOL

Mel, do you know WHAT we have to submit? WHAT format, etc? HOW to begin?

[Mellifluous]

Oh, I'm sure there will be some that won't be happy! LOL

Mel, do you know WHAT we have to submit? WHAT format, etc? HOW to begin?


I plan to give the PFHA a call, let them know that I am interested in serving as a contact point/coordinator for the largo race. I will see what works best for them and go from there.

I figure that it can't be that much different than dealing with a government agency, red tape, paperwork, policies and such. I can wade my way through it. ;-)

[PasoPerson]

Tami said: I don't care who is the blame for this at the Nationals - it is the responsibility of the President of the Association to come down hard and not let this happen again.


I heard from a reputable source that the only reason PFHA finally let more horses in was because of Robin Ratliff, our President! She somehow finally heard about this "exhibition" and decreed, "if they want in, let them in!"

ALSO, regarding the 6' tall trophy ... I take the blame for that one. I won the Largo Race in 1998. When I got the Nationals prize list for the 1999 Nationals, there was no Largo Race scheduled. I called PFHA and talked to CJ about it. After begging and mentioning more than casually that I was not even being given the chance to defend my title, he relented. We even had to pay for our own stalls, etc. back then. To avoid ever having to do this again, I wrote a Rules Change Proposal, trying to make this a regular class, one that would HAVE to go on. And then I went to my region, Sunshine PFHA at that time, and asked for a very very very large trophy to give to winners each year. The RCP passed and we were there in 1999 with that trophy to give to that year's winner. The reason it's left at Plant City between Nationals is really TWO reasons: 1) It would be too hard to ensure it be at Nationals the following year. 2) I make CJ look at it all year long, to remember there IS a Largo Race. The taking it apart and transporting to Nationals, and putting it back together again, etc. is the bane of someone's existence, I'm sure. But I'd rather have my name etched on that huge thing and know there will be a Race each year than hoping for it and see it once again threatened.

Now you will know, also, why I felt it important it become a Rule. I was pretty new into horses back then, and made mistakes writing the RCP up. I just wanted to be able to talk some trainers into entering the Race once I saw them at Nationals ... so made it like the Produce of Dam / Get of Sire class - they don't have to enter until at Nationals, but before show starts. Perhaps you all could re-think your positions on this being a rule or not. Problem is, you would have to pay for your stalls, unless you stayed off-site. AHEM, GA. MEMBERS ... AHEM, AHEM. Good news is that it's guaranteed to be held each year. Oh, and this time we could get it to be a pointed class, which means more shows around the country would have to offer this Race - let's show the entire Americas and Europe about this "largo thing".

Also, since we were an exhibition this year, and got stalls comp'd ... I know a certain drill team who came with 14 members' horses, and another who came with 12 members' horses. If we are truly an exhibition, why are they limiting the # of stalls we can have. Imagine the Budweiser Clydesdales being allowed 10 stalls! Yeah, right.

There, that should be enough food for thought for tonight. I'll try to check back tomorrow and see how much trouble I'm in.

[Ginger]

unless you stayed off-site.

I was the one that killed Nationals for several people last year by finding that out and announcing it (eh, just put it on my tab). You can't stay off-site during the show, or something, and this year, it was in the book, because the idiots sent me a book. I sent it back with a note saying "Thanks, I buy real toilet paper." What screwed it up? A loophole. Inconsistent information.

Clarity, documentation and parliamentary procedure are the keys to "winning" this, whatever it is. Apparently, neither side have ever had much use for this stuff, and are a bit rusty on it. The largo side is also laboring under the notion that their "government" cares either way about the largo race. Not so. They're just sitting back and letting it tangle itself up through careless misinformation and a lack of quantitative unity. It isn't "proving to them" or "showing them" anything that will get this. It's just stop, as Uncle Jesse says "quit grab-arssin' around and get somethin' done". Keep voice, video, and written records of everything, but remember that you have to let them know if you are recording video or audio, and you must also have their identification and consent on record. Take them to a meeting and embarass the PFHA people who SPOKE those words. The only things dumb minds (I correctd this from animals. There are few dumb animals unless they're particular primates.)understand are pain and fear. This has been going on what, over five years now?

The PFHA isn't slippery about wriggling out of this largo conundrum, it's just that it's so easy when there are gaping loopholes left by trusting people who don't want to kick them in the nuts. You need to find someone to front your largo thing with an absolute remorseless, cold loathing for humankind. A ruthless, silver-tongue with an actual affinity for making authority cringe, cower, and crumble their reserves. A negotiator is and has been useless. You need to declare a largo jihad upon them.

One tactical error is the assumption that A- there are rules of engagement- B- both sides follow the SAME rules if at all. Another tactical error is that you're assuming everyone reads this board. Most paso people either don't, or don't know that internet forums exist- or just won't visit them. Take it to a more personal level. The US and it's outlyings are largely varied, representatively speaking, on this forum. Take this, then, and go "landline" with it. Hang posters, send out flyers, spend some money on postage (money is the only thing that ever works, sadly)... develop small groups that meet physically, and then report here online to a master archive. Be proxies for this particular forum (or the largo group, whichever), and the unplugged. Discuss it at meetings, trailrides, over toilet stalls at shows, etc. (most of you are already, I realize, but take it more seriously). If more people than just those who log in here are hip to the game, then that's more balls in your court. Everyone needs lots of balls. It mystifies me that the Underground Railroad saved so many slaves simply by physical communication, ages before the telephone, let alone the internet, and things can't get done WITH the internet, be it largo racing or whatever.

It's sad, but I've noticed a "history" developing... the Largo Curse. Anyone who zealously takes up the reins of this endeavor inevitably drops it a year later and fills a scrip for Prozac. This either doesn't speak highly for the mettle of the enterpreneur, speaks TOO highly for that walking erectile dysfunction CJ Marcello and his merry lemmings, or hints that it's too big to hack down and make into a trojan paso (or even a LifeStyles). Don't flatter it by assuming the latter. Your "opponent" anticipates and relishes the chance to "vanquish" each wide-eyed "new meat" that bounds eagerly forward each "Largo Season". Well, no, not really, but you should stoke yourself, set yourself up like this. These people are walking on you. Face-dance them and run trains on their moms, or you won't ever get your big shiny trophy and three-seconds on RFDTV. The FINO horses will, because they command more respect, people take them more seriously, and if they are scorned, the offender WILL pay. It's global knowledge.

But everyone loves the largo racers. Yes, yes they do. Everyone loves chicken strips, too, but they don't order them from Spago. Why? It's a laughable, silly, child's food. People will order chicken piccata, marsala, au vin, avec framboises, etc. etc. and it's THE SAME BIRD, only dead differently. The largo horse is the same breed as other pasos, but it's allowed itself from the beginning to be trivialized, metaphorically fried and cut into adorable dinosaur shapes and served with ketchup, instead of lightly sauteed with balsamic vinaigrette and caramelized onions, then served up with a vintage white, or taken seriously like the other sub-groups.

Whoever drives this short bus, good luck. You'll need it. You're dealing with morons, which is actually worse than negotiating with skilled tacticians. Morons do not understand subtlety, finesse, decorum, diplomacy, candor, or the helpful, volunteering spirit of good people and in numbers, in offices, in votes, they're dangerously surprising. Find somebody who can drive a verbal bolt into their skulls, stun them, then decapitate them before they realize they're in the chute. You're running out of resources. People who were once enthusiastic and capable of helping have been hurt, insulted, ignored, and overlooked by BOTH the PFHA and this indie Largo front, intentionally or not. Each year this gets botched just fortifies the PFHA's "side" with more "weaponry" in the form of new loopholes, better phraseology for rules to quash the race, write around it in the rulebooks, and prepares them for the next Frodo.

The PFHA has been coasting by these many years on the dumb luck that their membership believes everything they're told and lots of money from smart people who have things just the way they want it. It's hard to get that kind of ball into your court after it's been allowed for so long. People who have control and power generally don't give it up that easy- unless a redheaded thorn in their side drives them to insanity over a period of years.

I just wasted ten minutes on this, and I doubt anyone will even finish reading it, let alone understand what I mean. I say none of this to be snotty, but rather, just to offer another take on it.

Single out the weak and old who have sat so comfortably for so long, and surprise them with your fierce tenacity and make an example of them, then go after your largo prize after having convinced the necessary powers that you are indeed collected, informed, savvy, and capable of managing something like this through proof. I've seen first-hand proof that the women of this forum are capable of the resourceful carnivorous pack mentailty necessary to sway a governing body and it's people. Channel it into something useful like getting your race, instead of cannibalism of your young. I suck at pep talks. Just get started crusading. Be prepared not only for the work, but for the money. Kinko's and Cingular aren't cheap anymore.

[paintedhorizon]

I have read every word on here and actually plan on printing this all out as well as taking to Stella to get her take on everything. No, she won't be part of this, I'm doing this ALONE, but with all that knowledge at my fingertips, who can blame me? LOL

Maybe I just need to go ahead and become a member! How much is it anyway? Probably too rich for my blood, but I want to DO something.

I'm not afraid of PFHA, I plan on, with help, making the largo race next year a REAL thing, with REAL time, and most of all ORGANIZATION!!! :eek: That's right, organization!!!! That is the biggest problem with the whole thing, it was NOT organized.

Anybody who has words of wisdom, please post them here! Maybe we can even get something done!

Mel, we don't have long to write something up. We need to get started.

My email is mklawitter@hotmail.com if anybody wants to email me.

[Pasogirlz]

I read every word too...and I have to agree w/a lot of it. ;-)

PH -It's $55 for one year and it comes w/PFHW magazine. And you are right...organization is the key.

[hast]

I read every word too...and I have to agree w/a lot of it. ;-)
<snip>

ditto. Good Luck PH!

[Mellifluous]

The nice part about all of this is that Carol U has actually done most of the legwork already so we are not having to start from scratch. In fact, there are some pretty workable concepts in place. I think a little tweaking is needed here and there but all in all, we have a very good foundation to build upon.

[CarolU]

Don't give me all the credit, Carolyn did a great job originally. I think you are 90% of the way there, just get it down and in to Stepahanie by the end of December.

[motorgypsy]

Crystal - great pep talk! We really missed you this year!!!

Carol indeed did a great job and submitted the proposal. The problem is - it was ignored for the most part. We'll deal with whatever the final product is but I do ask that it be kept SIMPLE.

The absolute best promotion for the largo horse is for the audience to have a good time - and for the audience to have a good time, the riders have to have a good time. The penalty for breaking gait is something we need to brainstorm on and come up with something better than stopping or letting everyone pass you. The first one is dangerous and the second one can be impossible if one horse in the race is misbehaving and not moving (which has happened several times in the past). So - what is a better way to impose a penalty for breaking gait????

Attire. Please don't restrict to pleasure attire. Any show attire including sparkles, silver, etc. should be fine. We could ask for no grubby Tshirts but if they keep give us only a few hours notice they won't get attractive attire.

Tack - any functional tack - it would be nice if it were reasonably clean.


Heats - no earlier than the day before the race. No later than 4 hours before the race.


Since this is a race it would be nice to encourage the use of helmets in adults as well as kids.

This is not rocket science. If we submit a proposal that is simple, doable and won't cost them an arm and a leg, there's no reason they shouldn't adopt it.



Comping stalls - yes it would be great for all to be comped but consider if the race gets 50 entries. And it could. So I can see a limit of perhaps 15???? We could at least try for that next year.

OK Mel and Michelle - sounds like you guys are the point people here. How about putting a poll in APF asking people who either have enetered or would consider entering the largo race their opinion on these essential items.

Penalty for breaking gait

Tack

Attire

comping stalls

prize money

number of laps

time for heats relative to the final race

Miscellaneous

[CarolU]

If the heats were run on Friday day, then the stalls comped for the night would be for the winners...that would limit it to 8 horses. That would be workable.

Yes, keep it as simple as possible. The show committee has plenty of other things on their hands, our proposal before with flags, flaggers, timers, etc., required way too many people in the arena...KISS.

Finally, PFHA is NOT our enemy here. The Show Committee is not our enemy. Most people in PFHA like the race and want it at the show. They just want us to get our act together and organize it so it's not such an issue and people aren't groussing about it all the time. I am sure it is very discouraging to put the race on and then come here and read nothing but complaints.

Keep all discussions constructive....

[paintedhorizon]

Only problem I see with this is what about the losers? Then all of a sudden they have to come up with $200? Or should everyone expect to pay $200?

If the heats were run on Friday day, then the stalls comped for the night would be for the winners...that would limit it to 8 horses. That would be workable.

What about comping the stalls at a reduced rate instead of entirely free? Like $50 per stall instead? That way, PFHA wins b/c they get money and the largo racers win b/c they get cheap stalls and nobody ends up being screwed in the end like the last nationals.

[Soltera]

We need a serious, "formal-as-fino" organization name, I guess: Paso Fino Largo Association, perhaps, and how about a nice logo? A largo logo!

We’ll need experts, too, for seminars, books, articles, clinics, rule books (helmet or safety rules)? Anyone want to pipe up as "expert"? Don't be shy, you know who you are! CarolU? paintedhorizon? echo? britzlove? baileyholc?

How about articles for papers local to shows, in advance? Articles for the magazine? It's a start. MAN this is so exciting! I can write articles to drum up interest without being an expert!

Penalty for breaking gait – point system. Winner is the fastest with the fewest points. Safety first! 3 judges, any two agreements per horse cause a point, per agreement. They could raise their hands, like an umpire, and any time two hands are in the air, the score taker gets the horse's number from them and announces it so the riders will know they have been penalized as they go. Or something like that?

Tack – any, please. You won’t see ME racing in a dressage saddle - give me poleys or give me death! Hmmm...awkward phrasing, there.

Attire – hey, how about racing silks! (just kidding) But please lets keep this something we can all afford, even folks who don't show in other classes, or who don't show at all, but are avid trail riders who want in on the fun and prize money. Please, NOT just show attire.

Comping stalls – 8 free, next 16 half off, next 16 discounted 25%?

prize money – comparable to other classes which do not use the point system to qualify for the nationals, OR make racing a qualifying class, and raise the prize money?

number of laps – I know, keep it simple, but how about a 3 lap race for sprinters, 6 lap race for regular folks and a 9 lap race for endurance riders? The heat timing could be similar: spaced closer for endurance riders, etc.

Miscellaneous – helmets for all, surely. And the judges need to be bona fide if the judging will be more subjective, as it would have to be for gait breaking points.

Any ideas on where the first articles could show up? I'm volunteering!

[CarolU]

Michelle, I was thinking the loosers would take their horses home...

Remember that the show has to pay for the total number of stalls for the entire time. They can't just 'rent' stalls for two nights for the racers. Perhaps we could pay what it actually costs them to do so, with no profit for the show.

I think helmets are a GREAT idea...
Clothes should be clean, safe, and 'showy'...it is Nationals after all.
Tack needs to keep the horse in control. We had a runaway one year with a snaffle bridle that the horse ran through.

Not too many rules here!!! KISS is important.

[SandyMM]

Clothes should be clean, safe, and 'showy'
I completely disagree with 'showy' clothes. It isn't a 'class', I would never vote for it to be an official class.... the more rules, the less likely it is that more real largo people will be drawn in to see and participate in Nationals. I want to race people who promote the largo gait, not only those who are already at a show and consider it just more class.

[Kerry W]

I'd comp the stalls for the top 3, and any left over, are first come, first served. That way, you know you'll have a decent "bloodmatch" next year. :lol:

Really...while it's not a "class", you are in front of judges, and if you have a breeding program you are trying to promote via this race, it's not really fair that you get a free ride, while the other divisions do not. Being in the ring, is advertisement, and I don't think that most would mind paying $200 for an ad just before one of, if not THE most watched classes at Nationals. Nationals costs quite a bit to put on...stall fees are a way to help pay for OUR Nationals, so any freebies, come out of the pocket of our own association. I think you'd get less flak out of other people who show there, if you were willing to pay your own way, at least as far as stall fees go.

If you think that it would be a hardship for people to afford the stalls, perhaps some sort of Largo Club could be established, to raise money to help someone who is having a last minute cash flow problem (sick horses, broke down vehicle, etc) that would prevent them from coming. Maybe pay Sandy some $$$ to have some Largo Club T's made up, and sell at shows, and have a portion of the $$ from sales go into the fund. I'd buy one. Might even cough up a few bucks for a Largo Club membership! ;-)

[Fuego]

Mandatory helmets for adults???

If a person lacks the basic riding skills to stay IN the saddle while riding the world's smoothest moving horse going around a big circle, they have NO business competeing at a nat'l level.

If safety is such a huge concern, perhaps the Largo race should be done lead line, at a walk........

I encourage new and learning riders of any age to wear protective gear. But, I don't feel ANYONE has the right to tell me what safety gear I need/ HAVE to wear. I've managed to stay healthy riding horses for the past 35 years, I find it unbelievably arrogant and beyond ridiculous that someone else NOW wants to decide what is in my best interest when riding my horse.

If you want to wear a helmet, do so. If you want to wear a protective vest and padded pants, do so. But there's no reason to start dictating to all riders at the whim of the fearful or the incompetant.

Wish you all luck with this endeavor. Wouldn't it be something to actually break the tradition of complaining every year about the same fiasco that never seems to change....

[Soltera]

How few rules we could set up for the Largo Club? 5? 10? An interesting challenge.

I wear a helmet because of a few freak accidents involving otherwise graceful horses tripping for seemingly no reason and going head over heels with me. Over 30 some years of hard riding, that's happened only 3 times, each time I was wearing a helmet, each time the helmet was smashed, and each time I still got a little bitty (but still painful) concussion. Have to be real careful with the ole head bone now. Easy for me to forget how much some people dislike helmets! Thanks for the reminder....

8-) 8-) 8-)

[motorgypsy]

Did someone say "mandatory helmets"? I didn't see it. But wearing a helmet is a great statement to your kids that you value your brain enough to protect it while riding in the ring with other horses you can't control at all and your own that you HOPE you can control.

We had so many dents in our helmets we had to send them back for replacements. Just because our horses are smooth doesn't mean they aren't horses. One could easily just trip and send you into the rail head first. Unlikely yes but possible. I wouldn't yet mandate helmets for the largo race but just like pro cyclists always wear helmets I hope the day will come when equestrians care as much about their brains as the cyclists.

[paintedhorizon]

So, you'll be in next years race, right Hast?

I read every word too...and I have to agree w/a lot of it. ;-)
<snip>

ditto. Good Luck PH!

[sporthorse]

they are listening and if you care enough find out about pasofinovoice.com

[Candice Burger]

Hey everyone,

A very small group has started a grass-roots action to motivate PFHA membership. A website has been started to promote the idea of getting PFHA structured in becoming more representative, transparent, communicative, and accountable for it's actions. The group is 100% supportive of PFHA and believes in positive input to help it grow and become stronger. We are non-partisan. Our agenda is not to support only one view but to encourage voice of all views in a format that will allow for thoughtful debate and TRUE majority decision. The website is still under construction since it gave birth last week. You are welcome to visit at www.pasovoice.com If you have any suggestions feel free to pm me here or better by email on the website. We will be refining our site as we go along.

We realize that PFHA is by the members for the members. We recognize PFHA depends on free voluntary services from its members in order to succeed. However, we feel that certain fundamental issues have not been addressed because of lack of organization. Plain and simple. PFHA must become more efficient in the way it does business and it IS a business now. However (again), that is no excuse not to be sensitive and responsive to it's members, recognizing that without members there is no organization (not the other way around). By promoting more efficient and structured processes, we believe this will provide degrees of freedom to pursue more important issues that prevent PFHA from developing and claiming its full market share.

We want to support a process and voting method that gives members their privileges back. We believe that by empowering members more will reciprocate by becoming more involved thus creating a cycle of positive feedback both to and from the organization. We also recognize that PFHA must deal with membership apathy and must have established methods in order to administrate organizational tasks. We are prepared to work towards an equitable representation for all members.

Please visit www.pasovoice.com when you have a chance. Anyone who wishes to participate in the movement, please pm me here.

EDIT: This is purely a political site dedicated to addressing the PFHA by-laws and rule structure.

[ErinC]

I think you should start a new tread for this so people do not miss it.

I think you are on to something, nice.

[Candice Burger]

Well, Erin, I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of using Lori's site to promote a political agenda for free. It's one thing to rant like a maniac as a forum member and then it's another to present myself as a representative of a political group, which this is. I'd feel better with an ad banner or something, which may come in a few weeks once the site construction is done. That way I don't hijack Lori's site with a bunch of rhetoric promoting pasovoice.

Right now, we're not aggressively promoting ourselves until some of our own fundamental organization is taken care of.

[Terry Wallace]

The site keeps trying to load some kind of software to my computer...
why is that? Not sure I like that so I didn't keep looking at it...

[Candice Burger]

I don't know Terry, because I checked it out several times and haven't had it try to load anything. PM with what it is trying to do so that I can forward it to our webmaster.

I've opened it in Firefox and IE, but haven't tried Netscape yet.

[CarolU]

It opened fine for me Candice.

Who is "we"??

[Terry Wallace]

it is attempting to load "Live update Crescendo Forte" software...on every page... I do not accept the "agreement" and leave when it does that...

[Candice Burger]

:smile:

Go to the contacts page Carol, that's us. All four of us right now.

[motorgypsy]

Candice Explorer asks if we want to use ActiveX controls or something like that on the web page. Firefox doesn't so this I think because firefox doesn't allow activeX. I ran into the same thing on another website today. I don't think it's really a problem. I just closed the window asking me the question and the wesite ran fine.

[Candice Burger]

Interesing because I tried it with IE today and I didn't get a prompt for any activeX controls. The PC I run with IE always prompts for the activeX controls.

MGs pm or email me details about which version of IE you are using.

details....details...