Genetic Defects & Bloodline Crosses [Archive] - American Paso Finos.com Forums

motorgypsy

10-07-2006, 08:39 PM

Inbreeding and line breeding give the both the best and the worst. You have to research carefully before doing it.

But to give an unrelated example today's seeing eye dogs supposedly trace back to one dog who was extreordinarily skilled at this task. By line breeding and inbreeding with him we now have many many dogs who are excellent guide dogs.

We (as we have mentioned previously) own an extremely inbred mare - brother sister who are out of a grandfather bred to granddaughter on both sides. She is amazing. Smart, incredibly naturally fino, big, tough and beautiful. I'd clone her in a minute. Does she have flaws from all this inbreeding? She's little up on her pastern angles, has little range of gait and is high strung. But then again many things far worse than these flaws have show up with outcrosses. So what this tells me that this particular line is remarkably free of serious genetic defects. A very good thing to know.

Now we also have a very marvelous outcross - Plebeyo X PPR. Again a mare I'd clone in minute. But is it because of the outcross? I doubt it. The parents were good and the breeding just was lucky.

So if you know the flaws of the parents, what you are looking for and the characterisitics that tend to be associated with the lines you can at least have a better chance of breeding what you want.

The amazing thing about the inbreeding/line breeding in particular in the PPR horses is how similar so many of them are. When we bought our mare we had no clue what a treasure we had. Then we started looking at pictures of today's PPR show horses. They looked like her twin. And we aer seriously considering breeding her to her brother if we get the owner to ship semen to the US from him. So research carefully but don't discard this powerful tool to set desired characteristics just because you're "heard it's bad".

Terry Wallace

10-07-2006, 08:42 PM

Well PT..why do people breed horses with DSLD when they are "too lame to ride"? Why do people breed horses with mouth defects, eye defects...I mean, C'mon...we could go on & on....

WHY? Because there is no breeding stock grading program to help protect the integrity of the breed...and because so many people think they must "get some money back" by breeding when those horses get too lame to ride anymore... I mean really..breeding horses that are lame from arthritis related directly to bad confo, breeding horses that cannot see due to eye defects, or mouth defects... or my all-time favorite....BLOODLINES...with no regard for the horse who stands in front of them....that is is far from breeding stock quality....I mean...have you been to pasopedigree lately where people ask what horse they should breed to and then show you a pic of a mare that is a cull in more ways that one?

motorgypsy

10-07-2006, 08:53 PM

Great point Terry. You don't breed unless the individual has something really worthy of passing on to the next generation regardless of whether it's inbreeding or outcrossing.

motorgypsy

10-07-2006, 08:57 PM

Sandy check out this Hilachas son. Sure doesn't look trocha???

http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Profile.asp?ID=68993

http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/pics/68993.jpg

Heidi

10-07-2006, 09:27 PM

Trocha? I'd want to say 'pace' because it looks like his hooves will hit at the same time, or very nearly the same time, from that photo.

When I was Paso shopping in the winter of 2004, I could not BELIEVE the amount of horses out there for sale as breeding prospects that looked so conformationally terrible. BUT, they had so-and-so in their pedigree... Big whoop! If the horse isn't put together nicely, it won't stand the test of time no matter who their daddy/mommy is. I ended up buying a young horse (18mo) but the seller was very knowledgeable about my filly's breeder, breeding, temperament, family training/gait history and knew many siblings and half-siblings and sent me photos for comparison. I think I lucked out finding that seller...

Are there common Paso Fino genetic faults? Other than the usual, I mean like the Rockies' eye problem, the Peruvian's DSLD...do the Paso Finos have one, too?
Heidi

Kerry W

10-07-2006, 09:45 PM

Nothing documented, that I'm aware of...unless Helen has some she'd like to share about the Contrapunto line. Just where did this come from? Have to look at ALL horses in his background, who did the research? Where is the documentation? Why does my horse who has this bloodline, show no signs of any sort or respiratory problem...she's pushing 16 years old...should I be alarmed? :roll:

motorgypsy

10-07-2006, 09:51 PM

Same here - our mare was bred three times and had three offspring from Monarca (before we bought her). Never heard of any respiratory problems with any of them. The mare whoever who is directly line to Resorte III had heaves for a year or so before we discovered it was a hay allergy. She's now totally fine. Show me the DATA please.

Terry Wallace

10-08-2006, 01:03 AM

Yep...VERY pacey! (the photo) almost perceptively equal pace in that photo.

C'mon folks...both mare and sire contribute to the gene pool....

Its very well known that Hilachas was very trocha, and he was fairly small... doesn't mean all his offspring would be...don't forget the MARES!!!

It doesn't mean trocha is BAD either...it can be quite smooth...heck, lots of people CANNOT TELL the difference!

SandyMM

10-08-2006, 01:51 AM

Sandy check out this Hilachas son. Sure doesn't look trocha???
Obviously pacey, but a trocha pushed to gait and beyond often goes to a dead pace...
Give me Hilachas with the right mare
Like I said, "from what I have seen" - and I was around competing against direct Hilachas sons and daughters in the showring. I owned a Hilachas granddaughter by an Hilachas son - the dam's line never took a step out of gait and I knew 3 generations of them. Even that strength of gait couldn't overcome the trocha.

I base my opinion on what I have seen from direct sons and daughters and the offspring I have seen personally... Of course, there are exceptions. But personally, I will never breed a direct Hilachas male line to any of my mares.

Tami Pinell

10-08-2006, 01:04 PM

I want to step in here and say just one thing - a lot of medical problems in horses are NOT genetic. Esp in the paso fino breed - they are caused from HUMANS... I have several here that WOULD have been just fine if they had been allowed to grow up and live without the human influence. BEFORE someone jumps onto genetics - one really better know the TRUE background from day one of the horse in question. PERIOD.
BTW - I know of beautiful horses with respitory problems that only developed while at the trainers..... same with feet and leg "defects" - this list could be really long, even down to a mare here with "wobblers" that was proven that she had a BROKEN NECK! No genetic problem and has had 3 beautiful, healthy, foals - two are grown and being ridden everywhere!

Heidi

10-08-2006, 03:41 PM

Yet, these same horses tire easily and riders are seen walking back to the line-up in fino classes (PFHA violation), when they come off the board.
Could this not simply be a case of lack of condition?
I'd have to agree, until genetic markers are indicated each 'perceived ailment' is a product of that particular horse and the sum of it's experiences.

motorgypsy

10-08-2006, 03:48 PM

AMEN!

But I do have one who tires easily and guess why - she's fat and gets that way on very little feed - low calorie grass pasture and 1/4 scoop grain per day. Gotta work her harder!!! So you could say heredity causes her to tire easily - her heredity for being fat!!! ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Privatetreaty

10-09-2006, 01:41 PM

I thought twice before starting this thread, Kerry. I knew I'd be face the firing squad.
This is Terry Wallace fault - she dared me to do it. :lol:
I must admit, all of you posted eloquently. Thank you. Unlike other "forums". :cry:

Yes, my Contrapunto comment is a speculative hypothesis.
However, it is based on
a. personal observation of trim and fit horses shown in the ring;
b. comments of tiring horses from two very respected Paso trainers and c. horses (live and dead) of this lineage with known respiratory problems.

The symptoms observes were not common to all horses in the ring at the time, for example-
Does anyone remember what happened the last time El Classico de Pleyebo was shown?
At the last Spectrum, we observed horses that were "rocking" their trainer's while at the line-up, because they were blowing so hard.
Others, were constantly pushed hard to continue.
All of the Contrapunto line within 3 generations.

It is my understanding that Contrapunto was bred to a limited number of mares, because his owner at the time did not generally breed to outside mares.
Considering the amount of Pasos around, the Contrapunto gene pool is finite, as apposed to the Resorte line.

Please note, any genetic defect can be either recessive or dominant, therefore not all horses show signs of the defect. Recessive defects may be passed.

There are so many things that are undocumented in this and other breeds.
Documentation requires medical research and it is up to Associations, non-profit organizations or Universities that conduct them.
Medical research takes years, in a "controlled environment and costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Until the research is conducted, we'll never truly know about any Paso genetic defect.

There are countless genetic research studies (past and present), especially those relating to Thoroughbreds.
The Jockey Club registers approximately 37,000 TB's annually. If registered within a year of birth, the fee is $200.
That equates to an annual revenue of $7.4 million. This does not include foals registered after 12 months nor other fees.
Now you see why they can afford things other breeds can only dream of.
Did you know there is a 10 week training program available for Thoroughbred stable hands?
This is why I continue to use Thoroughbreds as a benchmark.

But like Terry has indicated, something's are just so obvious, yet we see these breeding mistakes committed constantly.
Some conformation problems are easier for some folks to identify: cow or sickle hocks.
Another thing I've noticed lately is a growing number of horses "over at the knee".
But I've noticed that a lot of folk's conformation knowledge is limited. Even when it comes to gait.
There are those who can't tell the difference between trocha and gaiting at shows.
It's evident by their discontent, when their favorite horse fails to pin.

By the way, I'm of the opinion that pacing does not come naturally to Pasos.
When's that last time you saw a baby out in a field pacing?
I've noticed that pacing comes from horses that were pushed too hard and typically have hard mouths too.
Why someone would post a picture of Espectro pacing in Pasopedigree is beyond me. :roll:

.

Terry Wallace

10-09-2006, 02:00 PM

Oh GEE ....THANKS Hellion.....thanks a bunch! :lol:

Documentation...yeah...FAT CHANCE...as if...

Even truthfull disclosure of behavior problems is hard to get in this breed....

Let alone disclosure of a genetic problem...

That statemant I make based on current events I have observed in the past nine years....

Candice Burger

10-09-2006, 03:59 PM

Well PT, I thought you were nuts for posting such a topic--and still do. :razz:

You're last post simply confirms what I've been hearing too of the line-independent of our previous discussions--and observing as well.

I've spent a good number of years looking at Contrapunto stock and have found only a few individuals that I would consider. Lately, I've had converstations with other knowledgeable people and all independently are coming to the same conclusions that I am about the line. Now I like Pistolero tremendously and have seen quality stock that are not from Contrapunto that I admire allot. I admire some things about Contrapunto, the horse, as well, but the production is haphazard. I can't think of one outstanding male individual that is perpetuating the family. I'm still looking and in the meantime there's only a handful of Contrapunto sons left alive. When they are gone, who will carry the torch?

And what of the other part of the cross? El Classico is well-known to have walked to many of his championships as a colt. I've seen it too many times myself. He is the main vein of the Plebeyo/Chucuano male line. Again, I've seen some Chucuano mares, Plebeyo/Plebeyo free, that are fanstastic (and in gait). So what is the mechanism here? And Classico is throwing some rear end conformation consistently, but no one pays attention to that. Or maybe they do and promote it anyway because of daddy.

The Chucuano/Plebeyo family is practically extinct in COL; Contrapunto is not far behind. Why is that? Because Resorte IV is the fad or is there other reasons besides this?

But I've noticed that a lot of folk's conformation knowledge is limited. Even when it comes to gait.
There are those who can't tell the difference between trocha and gaiting at shows.
It's evident by their discontent, when their favorite horse fails to pin.

Ditto the comment. Dare to even suggest that the horse has confo problems or some other issue that relates to gait and you're a target. There isn't a forum around nor a magazine, nor any book about pasos that seriously discusses conformation and how it relates to gait. I've read more about the theory in angles to determine trocha or paso, but the discussion is done in generalities with little specifics nor examples to demonstrate the conformation. Some of the theory about croup shape, etc. is totally hypothetical but because it comes from a certain source, taken hook, line, and sinker for gospel. No one dares to question.

We can say "great hocks" but we can't say why. I've seen "great hocks" that were sickled hocked, camped out, base wide, bow-legged, all causing the animation that equates "great hocks". There was a problem of horses being "too open" so now we are are seeing champions pinned under saddle that are too narrow based.

motorgypsy

10-09-2006, 04:29 PM

Really interesting thread!!! Speaking of base narrow we were told by a noted Colombian breeder that they prefer base narrow. I don't really know what problems as far as breaking down, arthritis etc., you get from base narrow but we have a very narrow mare (PPR essentailly plus two hilachas) who moves on a line literally. Best trail horse you could ask for since she can go through a goat trail with no problems. So this may be why base narrow is preferred - better on the mountain trails - and if you've never seen Colombian mountain trails they really really rugged and steep.

Speaking of hocks - this is why I emphasize to anyone seeking breeding stallions to go SEE the stallion before sending a mare off to breed. Some stallions in our breed have the most terrible legs you've ever seen. I wouldn't breed to a horse like that unless he could literally lead the blind and speak three languages!! We were horrified at some of the legs on stallions who aren't very old.

Regarding pacing - yes it is natural to paso finos and yes they do it in the pasture. We have three who will pace, trot and gait in the pasture depending on the terrain and their mood at the time.

cowboy ed

10-09-2006, 04:34 PM

that "respiratory ailment" that was described just sounds like a horse that is out of condition to me. i had a plebeyo grandson, did some 25 mile limited distance endurance with him. you couldnt wear that rascal out, and he had some of the best recovery times i have seen. of course, he was lean, muscular, and had been properly conditioned.

Candice Burger

10-09-2006, 06:36 PM

Well, I concur ed with your comments as well. Are the horses conditioned well enough to compete? I wonder about that. I've witnessed the "conditioning" of show horses. Can't say the horses are in shape at all--at least in paso country. Now I'm speaking generalities here because I know of several individuals that will work a horse and they are fit!

The farms don't have time and they over feed the horses. The poor fino horse, once collected, hardly ever does more than a few laps in the fino gait and gets put up. The others aren't much better. If some were really worked, I bet these confo problems would start putting an ax on riding because of lameness issues.

I don't know why any breeder would want a narrow based horse except that it makes the rear end appear "closed". It causes inteferences, bad support, and the horse will eventually come up with galls. It's a FALSE impression of a horse that is tracking square when tested. Yes, paso breeders given a choice of which fault to pick, will pick a narrow based horse over a wide based or bowlegged horse. Horses that are "open" are more obvious with their tracking and inability to collect (the true meaning of rounding the back). But then the narrow based horses in the rear have the same problem, it only appears not to.

Maybe this is a novel idea, but why not target good, correct conformation instead of swinging the faddish pendulum back and forth? Just wait for the next decade when all these narrow based horses start falling over because they can't keep their support under them to turn AND be square!

Terry Wallace

10-09-2006, 06:44 PM

Totally agree on base-narrow horses....

I saw a horse recently at a ride that was built as I had never seen before...and that is...base narrow in the hind end ONLY...and "regular" in the front end... USUALLY...they are base-narrow OR base wide all the way around....

I rode behind the horse and his tracking was such that he looks almost three-legged from the rear...the two front legs travelling normally..the two hind legs "walking a tight rope"...like the rear legs coming out of the same hole.....

And...they wonder why said horse gets the GATE at shows.....a breeding stallion...

Yep..some novel Idea you got there Candice... ! ;-)

Brigitte

10-09-2006, 07:27 PM

Regarding pacing - yes it is natural to paso finos and yes they do it in the pasture. We have three who will pace, trot and gait in the pasture depending on the terrain and their mood at the time.

Pacing does not and should not come natural to the Paso Fino, of the horses I know that would pace, they would do so when they were overcollected and confused.

Terry Wallace

10-09-2006, 07:45 PM

Brigitte...whay do you think that? Paso Finos can do ANY "gait"...

Ever see any footage of Bochica????????

Candice Burger

10-09-2006, 09:01 PM

I suspect it's based on observing horses that naturally tend to be diagonal. In that case the statement made by Brigitte is true.

However, there are pasos particularly in Puerto Rico that have natural lateral tendencies and will prefer to pace. Afterall, in Puerto Rico just as in Colombia, horses have a natural range of modalities and one is the andadura or "pace". In that context, Brigitte's comments need further refinement. In the cases of lateral tendencies the trot or diagonal movement is for the same exact reasons as a horse with natural diagonal tendencies would tend to pace--because they are confused, braced, out of balance, or in pain--one or the combination of several when one is speaking about paso gait.

Just a little reminder that when talking pasos, they do come from more than one country and have variable backgrounds. I own a Colombian mare with lateral tendencies and have seen many other Colombian horses with lateral tendencies. There are some PPRs that have diagonal tendencies. Pacing IS a natural part of paso finos. It is part of their heritage and history. Maybe not in Colombia but in other parts of the paso world.

To put Espectro que tal's photo in context (I knew both rider and horse), the rider is very hard handed and the horse resentful. Hilachas horses, at one time, had a reputation for being cold-jawed. Later I realized there's really no such thing. Instead Hilachas horses didn't like force, period. A hard-handed rider met a grim horse that would take the bit and pull. It became a battle of might. That's the photo posted. The horse is totally out of balance, out of gait, and who knows what he's doing. In the pic, it has all the signs of a pace. Since the suspended feet aren't quite in the same flight pattern, I suspect the front is a little more forward and "may" land slightly ahead of the rear leg. But who knows for sure with one picture?

motorgypsy

10-09-2006, 09:50 PM

Brigitte some paso finos are naturally a bit more lateral and some more diagonal and some even handed naturally but believe me, in the pasture, they can and do pace when they feel like it and will also do so under saddle. Probably our best gaited of all will switch to pace and trot on an endurance ride when she's fatigued to rest some muscles before she gaits even again.

paintedhorizon

10-09-2006, 10:31 PM

I don't think that is specific to the breed Terry and there are always twelve sides to a story! :lol:

Even truthfull disclosure of behavior problems is hard to get in this breed....

Let alone disclosure of a genetic problem...

That statemant I make based on current events I have observed in the past nine years....

Polly Aulton

10-09-2006, 10:52 PM

I find it curious that anyone would say that "pacing is part of the Paso Fino". Granted I haven't seen as many pasos as someone that has been to Perry but I have never seen one pace. That is an interesting concept. If you've ever attended a Liz Graves clinic she would tell you that it is in the horse's conformation and you can look at a horse and tell if it is going to pace, trocha, fino, corto or largo.

This is a very interesting and informative discussion. You might like to know that this same discussion takes place in every gaited breed.

BTW it is believed that if you breed daughter to son or to father you will "fix" traits. Unfortunately you also stand a very good chance of getting a bunch of undesirable traits along with those "fixed" ones.

One example I'm familiar with is in the MFT breed. Zane Grey was bred to his dam to produce a horse named Missouri Traveller. Traveller was reputed to be mean as a snake and absolutely no one could ride him. However he stood at stud for a number of years and produced a rather large amount of Missouri Fox Trotters. See...even years ago they figured if you couldn't ride them you might as well breed them. Not a novel notion at all.
Polly

Terry Wallace

10-09-2006, 11:12 PM

Actually Michele..no there aren't twelve sides to a story..there is an ETHICAL and true side, and there is usually a flasehood side....

There are people who stand behind what they sell, and are ethical and truthfull....and do the RIGHT thing when needed....and there are others who are not. ;-)

Bonnie M

10-09-2006, 11:59 PM

Can someone post pictures of a base narrow and a base wide paso? Possibly from all sides?

paintedhorizon

10-10-2006, 12:32 AM

That was a joke Terry, about the twelve sides.

But, you are right, there are ethical and truthful ppl out there and I'm honored to be able to spend so much time with Stella (who is one of the best).

Actually Michele..no there aren't twelve sides to a story..there is an ETHICAL and true side, and there is usually a flasehood side....

There are people who stand behind what they sell, and are ethical and truthfull....and do the RIGHT thing when needed....and there are others who are not. ;-)

Brigitte

10-10-2006, 01:16 AM

Brigitte...whay do you think that? Paso Finos can do ANY "gait"...

Ever see any footage of Bochica????????

I grew up on Aruba, almost all ( like 98%) of the horses here are Paso Colombiano, most being fino. I mean Paso Fino, not fino as in Performance , Pleasure and fino. Just Fino. And when you grow up like that with lots of Colombian influence you think differently. For me as for many of the other Paso people, Fino horses should only Fino, and walk, but no trocha and definetly no pace. We are used that when started some fino bred horses do trocha, or there are some horses who are have one trocha parent and a fino parent. That horses would be half trocha and half fino. But pace?? Never..we only see a horse pacing when you overcollect them and they don't know what to do and start pacing or go trocha. And since most horses I know that may pace on ocasion and do so because they're confused I also draw the conclusion that since they only do that because they're pushed it's not natural. If it was they'd do that all the time. Of course they are capable of pacing. But you won't see a Paso Fino pacing at his own will under saddle. Paso Fino is their natural gait, not pace. You never see on a Paso Fino website anything writtten about pacing, why? Because they normally don't do that

Of the ones in Puerto Rico that pace, I don't know much about them except they use them for lil races

But Paso Finos will go trocha faster then they'd pace IMO. I've seen plenty horses in the showring trotting back after they're done with their board or when resting them. Never have I seen one pace yet.

And I'm talking here of the ones in the US. You'd never catch a in Colombia letting their horse trot back

Privatetreaty

10-10-2006, 02:54 AM

I never hid the fact that I'm nuts, Candice. You know that.
But this is very healthy dialog for all of us and we need to discuss it.
This is as bad as talking about religion or politics. Some people do take it personal.

I wish to clarify my original post please:
The Contrapunto/Plebeyo cross appears to be successful in the show ring in Fino.
However, it is the Contrapunto line that I find that manifests the genetic respiratory problems and not the Plebeyo.

Horses that are not conditioned properly are not medically diagnosed with respiratory problems.
We're talking about two different things here.
There is the contagious variety: influenza, strangles, etc.
Then there is genetics (please click and scroll down to "Part 2) Performance and Disease Studies" - where this study specifically refers to genetics and the Secretariat line.
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/Public/Research/zweig/antczak02.html

And yep, fads have gotten this breed into a lot of trouble. Certain lines will go extinct.
The latest fad here in Miami is breeding to Maraquero de Vitral La Rosa - IN DROVES.
Talk about horrible conformation and an unproven yound horse to boot.
Personally, his side tracking (crabbing) doesn't bother me. It's just a sign that his trainer doesn't know to use his toe (boot) to touch his shoulder, in order to straighten him out.
He is extremely narrow chested, splay toed, cow and sickle hocked.

Speaking of hocks - this is why I emphasize to anyone seeking breeding stallions to go SEE the stallion before sending a mare off to breed. Some stallions in our breed have the most terrible legs you've ever seen. I wouldn't breed to a horse like that unless he could literally lead the blind and speak three languages!! We were horrified at some of the legs on stallions who aren't very old.

Motorgypsy, words can not express the joy that came over me, after reading your post
To think that someone would invest so much in the entire breeding process and never bothered to see the stallion, nor care about their conformation, completely blows me away.

Regarding pacing - yes it is natural to paso finos and yes they do it in the pasture. We have three who will pace, trot and gait in the pasture depending on the terrain and their mood at the time.

I bet they're older. That's why I specifically mentioned babies.

I rode behind the horse and his tracking was such that he looks almost three-legged from the rear...the two front legs traveling normally..the two hind legs "walking a tight rope"...like the rear legs coming out of the same hole.....

Down here, we call that "galopado con una mano" or "galloping with one leg.
Typically, if you bring the horse "back", he'll stop doing that right away.

Brigitte...whay do you think that? Paso Finos can do ANY "gait"...

Ever see any footage of Bochica????????

Now here's a conversation piece.
I think the best thing that happened to the Puerto Rican gene pool was the death of Bochica, once he got there.
When a Bochica line horse doesn't want to gait, it is one of the hardest lines to train to gait.
Bochica was distantly related to the trocha man's favorite: Don Danilo.

By the way, I agree with you Brigitte.
And yeah, I think Espectro was pacing his little hard heart away.
http://brightonridge.com/about_gaits.html
Come on Candice, you remember his flying largo.

Can someone post pictures of a base narrow and a base wide paso? Possibly from all sides?

Your wish is my command Bonnie

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e26/Privatetreaty/butt.jpg
Figure 3A. Straight legs.
Figure 3B. Slightly cow-hocked.
Figure 3C. Extremely cow-hocked, splay-footed.
Figure 3D. Bow-legged or bandy-legged or "too wide," pigeon toed.
Figure 3E. Base-narrow or stands close.
Figure 3F. Base-wide or stands wide.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e26/Privatetreaty/sidelegs.jpg
Figure 4A. Correct skeletal structure.
Figure 4B. Correct leg set.
Figure 4C. Sickle-hocked or too much set.
Figure 4D. Post-legged or too straight, "coon-footed."
Figure 4E. Camped under or stands under.
Figure 4F. Defects of this magnitude should not be propagated.

.

Candice Burger

10-10-2006, 03:03 PM

By the way, I agree with you Brigitte.
And yeah, I think Espectro was pacing his little hard heart away.
http://brightonridge.com/about_gaits.html
Come on Candice, you remember his flying largo.

May have misunderstood--The pic shows Espectro in a pretty good pace because of the way he was ridden--hard handed NOT because he had natural lateral tendencies. Hilachas horses either gaited (mostly) OR tended to be diagonal (mostly). A lateral slant on Hilachas, I'd be looking at the mare. Everyone knows how genetics can be funny. Could be the genes lined up for gait in favor of the mare.

Horses that are in a bind for whatever the reasons, get out of balance and general will trot if the tendency is lateral, will pace if the tendency is diagonal. It's a pretty good signal that something is bad wrong because they cannot drop into their natural way of going.

What I was trying to say was beware of one photo to say how a horse's "natrual" ability is. In fact beware of watching a horse ridden incorrectly that causes it to do "unnatural" things like pace or trot. The pic of Espectro is not natural for his ability nor tendencies. He is obviously poorly ridden in the photo. That's the first and really the last consideration I gave the photo. Bad rider, ergo, forget trying to say anything about what the horse can or cannot do.

Beware of watching a horse in competition for only a few minutes. Bad riding makes for bad performances and seemingly bad conformation if not evaluated cautiously. Good riders make up for weaknesses in their horses--beware of that too.

I've seen horses that don't have any rear end problems suddenly develop them because of bad riding. Horses that appear to be camped out may in fact have no problems in hind conformation but have contorted themselves in the spine in avoidance. Sometimes an off comment influences my "vision" so to speak. There's a horse I've been watching for years that I have misgivings about, but I've decided to go see him for myself to dispel such comments and my own caution. Sometimes he looks pretty good to me, sometimes he doesn't. It's not really obvious what, if any, problem exists.

So, there's allot to look at and, in my opinion, not one photo or one video or one visit to the farm does it for me. Unless the horse is obviously badly conformed. That's a simple visit and one line marked out on my list. Actually I see so many at horse shows now, it saves me time and money just to mark them off as they go by in the arena.

Horses are NOT machines--big news break here. They are dynamic and change/adapt according to their environment. Knowing conformation helps to determine ability BUT it is not the final factor in all cases. Horses that are gymnastically trained AND fit can compensate for some minor deficiencies. It's a toss up--do I take a horse with fantastic ability and athleticism but with a small twist in one leg or the perfectly conformed that can't do squat? What I'm seeing are major boo-boos in nature. I believe that's what PT is talking about here. The obvious, the glaring, the can't pretend it's not there BAD problems in the breed that are perpetuated knowingly. For what reasons?

And I agree, wholeheartedly, Helene that when years of observation cannot dispell a concern--just come on out and say it. Lot's of people might have the evidence needed and who cares about the ones that can't get their panties out of their cracks?

And Maraquero? Three words, Maraquita La Rosa. Allot things about the mare I like and many more I don't. I was joking one day and told someone, "See what would happen to a mare like Maraquita if I bred her? I'd take one look and think, gosh she is ugly, she trots, she's small--I'm selling her cheap. I'll tell the buyer that I don't think she's very competitive no matter how fast her little feet can go because she so incorrect. " Poor thing would end up in someone's back yard. Loved and underappreciated. Horses like this leave me with allot of doubts about why I'm breeding. I'm gonna be very unsuccessful with the way I think about horses and pasos.

Kerry W

10-10-2006, 04:01 PM

Yes, by all means! Feel free to defame any and all Paso Fino horses and/or bloodlines at your whim! No documentation necessary! I'm sure there are a few attorneys out there who wish MORE people would do it!
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Terry Wallace

10-10-2006, 04:10 PM

Defame? How about HONESTY in disclosure? Its NOT libel when it is the truth...

I have to agree with Candice... if it exists...just SAY it. No more of this sweeping under the rug.... what this breed truly needs is s grading board for breeding stock. Then there would be no need for 'hidden truths".....the horse would either pass or it wouldn't . It would not be up to the bloodline, or an owner's whim, if it was breeding stock or not.

JMO

Kerry W

10-10-2006, 04:22 PM

Who is charged with determining the truth about a genetically heritable respiratory "problem"? I'm sorry, I'm sure Helen is one heck of a Broker, but is she qualified to diagnose and declare such a thing? If what she says is so, then so be it. Stop the production of this line IMMEDIATELY...but she has not proven that. Not even close.

Candice Burger

10-10-2006, 08:35 PM

Well, Kerry, that's why I said PT was nuts for posting it to begin with.

We should do everyone a favor and keep our observations, thoughts, discussions, to ourselves, private and confidential. That way we can feel all smarmy when the newbies hit the fan, again and again and again.

Many of us spend allot of time with our own thoughts and evaluations and some do have valuable insights--like the one with Bochica. I LUV that line, but I really want to hear what PT says about it. I respect what she has to say, she's demonstrated to me to be an astute person. I don't have to agree with it or like it, but anything that she can contribute to HELP me with my Bochica stock, I'll take it. If I can improve, cull, select better because of her observations about Bochica and gait--well, THANK YOU!!! I still like the line, think it has limitations, maybe PT has discovered another, maybe not. I want to know about it. I'm already revamping some breeding ideas based on other previous contributions, what's to say this should be any different? Why keep it to oneself? BTW-PT is not the first person to comment about Bochica like that. I heard it long before when I bred to a Bochica inbred. Same concerns--they could be difficult and hard to manage in gait. I haven't found that to be my experience, but I took it seriously then, I take it seriously now because the day may come I'll regret not listening. I've got allot of Bochica stock and I'm looking for more. I'm not going to get rid of my stock or quit looking at it or stop saying good things AND bad about it. That's the mysticism behind anything. It ain't perfect and it ain't trash.

The Contrapunto line is not prolific nor productive. Many of us have brought up several reasons including a possible hertiable trait. Asking for proof of inheritability is the real question. There's plenty of discussion about how to develop the metric of heritability.

Besides it really wasn't about Contrapunto until folks started insisting that it was and to prove it. It was about why the paso breeders were purposefully selecting stock for breeding with very poor and possibly hertiable traits. Does anyone know how traits with poor heritability traits are removed? You CULL!!!

So let's just say there is no proof, and let's just say there's been what, one maybe two horses with Contrapunto bloodlines with respiratory problems (maybe). A smart breeder, first ,doesn't breed to those specific individuals, then they look at pedigrees and other horses--talk to folks, then they determine how inheritable it is OR they don't breed to the line. There's plenty more to choose from. There may be several outstanding individuals that don't meet the "norm". Those are the ones to look at and breed to--knowing that if you inbred, watch out and be ready to cull.

And lest we all forget, PT also said, that she liked the cross and it was very fino. And I happen to agree with that. The line IS very fino, has some great qualities, but it's still not prolific nor productive and that is a very serious problem.

You know, I just had a private conversation yesterday concerning a post under the PPR section. And the comment went along that nothing "negative" would be said about certain horses because of the position the person held in the PPR community. They encouraged me to "add to" the posting my own observations about the horses I've seen. Well, I don't really feel like it because of my past expereinces--folks act like it's the end of the world or some lawsuit is forthcoming just because I say--"gee, he has a bit of a temper". I LIKE a horse with some temper! But why say that? Is that going to make folks think that they should like temper too? Absolutely not! Just know that it "may" be there and watch for it. Decide what "temper" is and then decide if it's wanted or not DEPENDING on the mare, the training, the skill required, etc.

The conversation ended with us discussing each horse and how each saw the animal. I liked a particular animal more and another less. We didn't see eye to eye, how could we? Different experiences, different focus, different likes, different tolerances, different concerns. Yet, I value each and every discussion because it forces me to view a horse from a new perspective. I like that allot. Seems to me that most folks don't.

I told Lori I'd practice my new posting routine. Seems I forgot myself again.

Let me rephrase myself by saying "Contraputo is a NICE horse!" Just forget everything I wrote before this.

Nice horse, that Contrapunto is. Yessir and I like that Bochica too.

Kerry W

10-10-2006, 09:00 PM

I have no issue with people posting opinions, or observations about various horses, exhibiting excellent gait/poor gait, good temper/bad temper. Those are things that can vary due to environment, and moment in time, that sort of thing.

The issue with the genetic "problem", which has yet to be identified, is a bit different. There are no variables in a genetically transmitted "problem". Like with HYPP....it's been identified, and there is no variable there...it's there, it's heritable, and no amount of training, or treats is going to fix a genetic disorder. If it IS in this line (and there is no proof that it is), that means it came from one or both parents, unless there is a mutation occuring here....if Dr.??? Helen would care to elaborate on her theories about THAT, as well...which means that any horse with Pistolero or La LigiaII, has the potential to be a carrier of this "problem". How many horses do you suppose have THOSE horses in the lines? You're talking about putting a black mark beside ALL Pistolero and/or La LigiaII bred horses. ALL of them. Because why? Helen said so? I need a bit more, before I start the spay and geld campaign, if you don't mind. Is that so much to ask?

The line itself is not really the issue, the issue is spouting off theories about something that is potentially devastating to this breed, with NO PROOF. I'm not going to sit here and pat her on the back for posting. Thanks for posting this Helen...you've done a great service to this breed. I'm sure you're TB buddies are ordering you flowers, as we speak.

And YES..Helen made it about Contrapunto, by mentioning his name. She is soley responsible for that one. She could have easily made the post without mentioning any specific names, but she chose not to do so. Are we supposed to sit here and accept this like a lot of sheep? No thanks...I don't say baaaaa! :lol:

Terry Wallace

10-10-2006, 09:04 PM

The OWNER of the horse would be responsible for proving/disproving a heritable problem. The owner would be responsible for DISCLOSING such a problem... but if you think that all owners will do that....you are sorely mistaken..in fact, many will try to conceal it.

A case in point....
A two year old colt had a trapped testicle at age two..he was technically a cryptorchid. The AAEP says that any colt who does not fully descend by age 12 months would be a cryptorchid, even if the testicle descended at a later date...in this breed, Confepaso is a bit more lenient and says the colt must be fully descended by age 24 months. The colt was 28 months, and had a trapped testicle... is it ethical to breed and not disclose to your mare owners that the colt did not fully descend until age 36 months? After all..they's never know unless they saw it for themselves....

Another case....
A mare was brought to a stud farm for breeding. The mare had problems in her hind legs. The stud owner called the mare owner and asked to take the mare to a vet for a diagnosis on what the problem was. The diagnosis was the beginnings of DSLD...diagnosed by ultrasound. The stallion owner returned the mare to the mare owner unbred. The mare owner still wants to breed the mare so sends it to another stallion owner who has no clue the mare has been diagnosed, as the mare owner says nothing. The mare is bred... offspring is produced...is that ethical? is it now up to the stallion owner to "prove" the mare is not worthy to breed...? Or is it any of the stallion owner's business to say anything when it is observed that offspring from that mare are being advertised on the internet for sale...Would it not be up to the owner of the mare to disclose that the dam suffers from DSLD?

One more.... a mare is sold to a first time Paso (and first time horse) owner as a "fine broodmare prospect". The mare has a sow mouth (underbite) hertiable fault. The newcomer has no clue that there is anything wrong in the mouth until a certified judge happens to look in the mouth during a BF class. The judge tells the owner the horse is not breeding stock quality. The owner is shocked as they have been told by the breeder the mare is a fine broodmare prospect. Was that an ethical sale to the newcomer? Who's reponsibility was it in the first place to disclose the horse had an underbite and was not considered breeding stock? Was it the newcomer's ignorance to trust in a breeder? OR...was it a breeder dumping a cull on a newcomer, cashing the check and running to the bank...

How many breeders follow the ethics of selling a horse as laid out by the breed organization they represent?

How many just misrepresent the horse so they can make that sale?

As I say...honesty and integrity..is what is mostly needed by the breeder/trainer/judges who represent any breed. It should never be that the person observing the fault/misrepresentation be responsible for proving anything. It *should* have been handled by the OWNER...before it ever was allowed to proceed....

When faulty horses are bred who consistantly produce those faults in their offspring.... is it up to the observer following this particular line to "prove" it is unethical to continue breeding the horses? To me, it is the responsibility of a breeder not to do such things in the first place..but too often it comes down to the same old scenario...which is the owner feels they must make that buck no mater what... no mater what it costs a buyer somewhere down the line... no mater what it does to the integrity of the breed... its all about getting some financial return in the end.

If a person/observer is seeing those consistant faults....are you saying they must prove it? I don't think so.... its more likely they will refrain from breeding into that line. I don't think they should be blind to those faults just because they don't own the horse.... and they should be able to speak freely about their observations... JMO

Kerry W

10-11-2006, 01:24 AM

What fault? Thus far, no fault has been named.

roadrunner

10-11-2006, 05:11 AM

This is why a vet check is so necessary. We've been extremely fortunate because we never had a vet check done. We did buy one youngster that turned out to have aural plaques really badly in his ears but his owner didn't know because they didn't clip his ears until we had already bought him and they took him to the show since they had already entered him. It was a long fight to get rid of them!

Suppose a horse is hyperflexy. Should you point this out to the buyer? Perhaps the owner hasn't even noticed it. We didn't until we started looking at some photos and noticed how much she was flexing. We had a vet check her and he just told us to be careful not to do too much as one time with her and we haven't.

You'd also be surprised how many people have NEVER looked into their horse's mouth. They have no clue the horse has a bad bite. The whole reason we check is becaue minis have a major problem with bad bite. Ours is fine by the way.

What about a horse being narrow? Should an owner tell a buyer about that? Is it really a problem? There's just so much to deal with. The main thing is to divulge as much as you know when selling a horse and strongly advise a vet check. But then vets miss things also. One of our vets thought one of our mares was a Peruvian and didn't know Peruvians had a separate registry from paso finos.

And what about disposition? Paso finos are so particular about their owners all we can do is tell what we've seen and experienced and heard about the horse but we have several who were sent back to the original owner for behavior problems multiple times and we were not told about it until much later. We bought a mare who had foundered multiple times. We were not told about it until much later. We also found out much later supposedly that one of our mares had stringhalt surgery. We still don't know if this is true. She has no scar which they normally have.

It's a real problem any way you look at it which is why a vet check is such a good idea. But even then you don't know if the horse you buy will like you. Chinook couldn't stand us for a long time. And I could go down the list with each one we have with some kind of problem. And herd sour???? WOW. That is a major problem to deal with when relocating a horse. They don't like to move. Well anyway I've waxed on enough here

Oh - for Brigitte's information - if you look at the old definitions of the paso fino gait you will notice it is described as "4 beat lateral gait", not even four beat gait which we now expect. Lateral is of course pacey and pacey horses tend to hard pace when pushed beyond their range of gait. So again it is a very natural gait and perhaps even more natural than being trotty or diagonal. It may be that it was Don Danilo who pushed the oritinally more lateral paso fino a bit over into the slightly diagonal that it is now.

Ours who will pace are not old - one is just 4 (she will trot or pace but is naturally very even gaited) and is a 222 grandaugther out of our PPR mare who is also more naturally lateral but will trot also sometimes if she feels like it.

Privatetreaty

10-11-2006, 12:39 PM

Kerry W

Are you Kerry Wachtman?
AKA Belle on the other forum?

Why are you stalking me?

.

AprilH

10-11-2006, 12:42 PM

I think this topic is great. It is good to share personal opinions/experiences with bloodlines because then you don't go into a situation blind. Sure, someones opinion may be different but at least it gives you something to think about and watch for. There may be a stallion out there that someone has been around, saw some offspring that has a "terrible" attitude. However, you really like all the other qualities in this stallion so you just make sure to breed to a mare with an "exceptionally" good attitude and hopefully override the stallions bad disposition. I find it fascinating when there are simularities with offspring from a particular stallion. For instance, I have two Insolito offspring and the trainer has had several others and they all have "sensitive" noses. This may be just pure coincidence but it makes a person aware of using a softer nose piece after initial foundation work and seeing if that doesn't help any problems that may be happening.

Any education about a particular bloodline not only helps the owner but also the horse. How many people end up with the wrong horse because they are just a product of their breeding and not anything that can be changed. There are of course a million exceptions but at least you can have a better understanding of why something might be happening. Just like Plebeyo, how many times have I heard that he puts so much brio in his offspring and if you aren't careful when starting them out you can push too hard and have a basketcase. But there may be many of you out there that have this bloodline and would put a baby on to ride. However, was this horses started slow/easy and therefore there are no attitude issues. I just got a mare who is Plebeyo on top and bottom who has a "terrible" attitude and it may be genetic or training but I'm breeding her to a stallion who puts out "great" dispostions to cover the possibility that it may be a genetic attitude she has. I love to hang out with the trainers because they are around so many of the different bloodlines and you get an opinion on good/bad qualities that they see showing up in certain lines. Of course that is that particular trainers "opinion," so just file it around in your mind and always listen and learn.

Kerry W

10-11-2006, 01:14 PM

Kerry W

Are you Kerry Wachtman?
AKA Belle on the other forum?

Why are you stalking me?

.

You flatter yourself. You're not worthy.

PasoJoy

10-11-2006, 02:55 PM

So, should I be watching my Monarca son very carefully for any signs of respiratory ailments??? :cry:

paintedhorizon

10-11-2006, 03:23 PM

I totally agree that honesty and integrity is what is mostly needed, however, no matter what breed, shoot, what animal, what product, there are ppl out there that are dishonest. That's just going to happen, no matter what.

I am lucky enough to have met some wonderful ppl in the paso world that are truly honest and have much integrity (Stella for example) but I have seen, just on this board and at Nationals, that this is a small part. If only ppl would do like Stella does and put the HORSES first, things would be different.

How many breeders follow the ethics of selling a horse as laid out by the breed organization they represent?

How many just misrepresent the horse so they can make that sale?

As I say...honesty and integrity..is what is mostly needed by the breeder/trainer/judges who represent any breed. It should never be that the person observing the fault/misrepresentation be responsible for proving anything. It *should* have been handled by the OWNER...before it ever was allowed to proceed....

Kerry, a stalker? :lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl