True Confessions...for Cowboy Ed and other Professionals... [Archive]

PasoJoy

10-08-2006, 05:01 PM

OK, I tried to do a video, but don't really know how to work windows 'movie maker' to get the whole thing to load, so this is a little chopped up... :-?
Please note: I am NOT a professional rider (as you can see) and you can also see I am NOT a trainer.. :shock: and I am also OLD...and have torn cartilage in my right knee which prevents me from trying this on the off side (he wouldn't go for that either though...) :oops:
Ed, the flexing and holding him flexed was working till he caught on....now he WON'T flex without a great deal of fuss...and I am practically having to break my wrist to get his head turned...(it was quite awhile ago that I emailed you about him...but maybe you remember)..
After riding him for about 20 minutes I DID mangage to get him to flat walk on a loose rein... :smile: and the next day I rode him and he did also flat walk then too, although the 'mounting' issues remain the same.
I will also add he is worse now since the move here 2 yrs ago...(he was very traumatized by it)..and at my old house I had gotten him to the point where he WOULD stand fairly quietly for me to get on....
http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=14901410103edf3eeb9d40&skin_id=0&utm_source=otm&utm_medium=text_url
hope I did that right.. :roll:

Pasofinoguy

10-08-2006, 05:33 PM

what happens when you just mount him without pulling his head to the side. Seams he is use to it or thinks you just want him to back. Looks dangerous. Have you tried to lunge him before mounting.

PasoJoy

10-08-2006, 05:38 PM

He will not stand still.. :( the minute I grab a handful of mane, he's off like a rocket...I can get on him no problem with just a halter and leadrope, put some tack on him and it's a whole different horse...

PasoJoy

10-08-2006, 05:41 PM

Lunging makes him worse...so do circles, serpentines, figure eights, etc, when riding...he doesn't mean to do it( I don't think...it's hard to explain..), I never feel threatened...just can't get on... :shock:

Barbwire

10-08-2006, 05:41 PM

Ok, so I'm not a horse trainer but I will throw in my two cents anyways. What I see here is a total lack of communication and obvious frustration. What I would do if teach the horse the "stand " command first. Once he has it down pat on the ground during all circumstances, then I would try mounting. I would NOT pick up the reins at all until mounted and ready to go. I had the same problem you are having with Amante when I first got him. Now I can mount him, NOT touching the reins at all, and he just stands there waiting for me to pick them up and cue him to move forward.

Your immediate goal should be to have him stand still, not to mount. IMHO

Terry Wallace is the one I have to thank for helping me with Amante, and I'm sure she will help you, too. Good luck! :D

PasoJoy

10-08-2006, 05:48 PM

Frustration for sure Barb! And I'm not good at 'working' on things...just want to RIDE when I get out there.. :-? I know it's probably my fault :(

Barbwire

10-08-2006, 05:52 PM

Thing is, Joy, someone skipped some BIG steps in his training, that is why he won't stand still for you. It's up to you to go back and teach him in baby steps so he knows what you want and the two of you don't end up fighting again. By teaching him the "stand" command you will be doing more than teaching him to be still, you will be setting up communication with him that will hopefully carry over to all aspects of your relationship with him. Ya dig? :D

Pasofinoguy

10-08-2006, 05:54 PM

Do you ever watch clinton anderson on rfdtv he is on at 2 central time sundays. I am with barb go back to basics on ground work and work on that stand. One thing i think is the confussion i wonder if he is thinking that you are asking him to back. If he backs like that i would take over and keep him backing. Turn that backing from his control to yours.

PasoJoy

10-08-2006, 05:59 PM

yes, I will have to do SOMETHING...baby steps is what I have to do...
I don't think he's confused about backing, he is trying to evade me...(and succeeding)... :roll:

Linda Y

10-08-2006, 06:04 PM

I am not a trainer either, and am only about half way through the tape...slow dial-up...but it is obvious to me too that this is a case of confusion and frustration on BOTH your parts.
He thinks you are asking him to turn, so he does, but gets no relief for doing what he thinks you want. So he turns harder, faster. You get upset that he is 'acting up' and you ask him to flex more. He thinks he is doing what you ask, so he tries turning harder again.
At a couple of points, you are asking him to flex with the reins held way too high. So he is flying backwards. As far as he is concerned, you asked him to do that. So, in effect, you are actually teaching him to act this way.
I agree with the others...take him back to square one. You shouldn't have to flex him like that just to be able to get on.
He is a lovely horse, and just needs to find out what it is that will make him happy. He doesn't seem happy with his headstall and bit.

PasoJoy

10-08-2006, 06:40 PM

Thanks for all your suggestions, people, I really appreciate it, also a video of yourself is helpful when you watch it...I too didn't think the headstall was right, I had just put this on him, and I think the bit was up too high, the following day I took it down a notch and he didn't mouth it like he did the day of this video..
I should have put this in the training forum as well.. :oops:

Terry Wallace

10-08-2006, 06:51 PM

here is something simple to try... Rather than bending his head around toward you "bronc style"...instead...pick up your RIGHT rein from over top of the saddle. That way, he won't BE ABLE to circle into you. Just keep tension on your right rein and try that first.

He is getting a very mixed signal on what you want him to do when you have his neck bent so tight toward you when you are trying to mount.

Mellifluous

10-08-2006, 07:25 PM

I am no professional but...

When I flex Phoebe, I do not have to pull her around with a bunch of force and hold her head there. She does it on her own once she knows that I am asking her to flex. I also wait for her to give me a little nod or kindof a break at the poll before she releases. I did not see that horse doing that. It looks like he is being pulled around for a second and then released. I use flexing as a calming tool for Phoebe, not as a form of punishment.

Dunno of that makes sense?

PasoJoy

10-08-2006, 09:20 PM

Oh dear, I didn't think I was punishing him.. :(
I do use flexing to relax him, and do release when he gives to me...hard to see in the video...I did have him flat walking after 20 minutes or so, with NO contact on the reins at all...
But the holding him to get on was something I was trying from a suggestion...I probably got it wrong and should do it as Terry says, I will try that tomorrow...

motorgypsy

10-08-2006, 09:21 PM

Ah yes - the paso fino way. If they don't know what to do they will always do something rather than just stand there. They are such funny horses

A few suggestions you might try from one who collects difficult horses.

Avoid all caffeine before you go to mount and ride him - it makes you antsy and short tempered and they pick up on this.

When you really want to ride with no fuss get someone to hold him for you when you mount. I wonder how he'd do if you put him under a tree with a high limb and just lowered yourself onto his back??? Just kidding but it is such a pain when they are difficult to mount!!!

The technique of just holding the left rein when mounting is also one used by John Lyons. The advantage of it is that the horse circles around you so all you have to do is rotate on your one foot to stay with him. But if you have a bad leg it's not a good idea. It actually works well but you do tend to get dizzy if you have a stubborn horse. I spent probably 30 minutes doing circles with Chinook in the Conyers arena trying to get her to stand for mounting and she finally did stand still. She was afraid in the arena and wanted to leave. Normally she's fine to mount. Some of our guys really are much better with mounting when you don't touch the reins at all. With these guys we just lay our hand across them when we grab the mane to mount so we have the reins and the mane in our hand but no tension on the reins. I'd try this in a round pen or arena though first.

You might try clicker training. go the the KBR website. It's fantastic. They have a link to it and it does really work and is very easy. Petsmart sells clickers for $.25 or so. My dog show friend told me about it and it's great.

Forget riding for a week or so and just practice some standing still and rewards while tacked up.

Now how is he once you're in the saddle? If he's fine perhaps when you mount you are twist his withers. You could try to train him to let you mount using a mounting block. Get one and just get up on it and stand beside him when he is tacked up. No mounting until he's relaxed. Then just play with the saddle, stirrups until he's relaxed again and so and then just untack him and put him away. You are both stressed out about this obviously as I would be also and as I'm sure you know - our guys really pick up on this and try everything in the world to figure out what you want. Standing still is just not one of their choices when they're stressed out.

You have to laugh at his expression in the video though - it's like "WHAT in the HECK does she want??? I've tried EVERYTHING I can THINK of!!!"

Good luck and let us know what works! We're always looking for better ways to do things!

And by the way - don't blame yourself because he's difficult. You're doing the best you can and so is he. It's like ordering in a restaurant where everyone speeks Greek - it's not easy to figure things out on either side!!

Terry Wallace

10-08-2006, 09:43 PM

Just try to keep him standing straight and still. If he moves when you put your foot in the stirrup, take your foot back out, repeat, repeat, repeat until he is very bored with the idea of you getting on...do this ten times if you need to.

Face him into a wall if you have to, but try to keep his body straight & still. If he moves off right when mounted... get back off....repeat if you need to, as many times as you need to until he will stand still.

Does he stand tied nice and calmly?

NikiGA

10-08-2006, 09:45 PM

Oh, Joy! I feel terrible for both of you. He seems worse. I am so sorry.

PasoJoy

10-08-2006, 09:52 PM

Thanks MG's, no I never drink caffeine with him! I try to keep breathing... :shock:
He has done this since I've had him, only worse now since the move, and I believe he has done it BEFORE I got him too...I used to have a small enclosure where I would tack him up, and there was nowhere for him to 'run' to, so I would just follow him till he bumped up against a wood fence and then I could get on..he would hang his head over that fence and just brace himself..
...if he has a 'barrier' in front of him, he's better with that. If someone holds him he's pretty good that way too...
He wants to take off like a rocket when you are in the saddle, when you pick up the reins, or not. I have tried NO contact on the reins to get on him, doesn't matter. I CAN get on him when he is in his paddock tacked up with very little fuss. I CAN get on him bareback, with no tack. Or with a saddle and no headgear, or with a halter and leadrope.
It's like he has been brainwashed or something...he gets this worried look on his face like the end is coming...and he just 'goes' somewhere...
but his mind is not with you that is for sure. After awhile he starts to quiet down, I had him down to just a few minutes of 'rocketman' at the beginning of a ride at my old place. And yesterday we did a flat walk almost the entire trail ride.
I took him to a Mark Rashid clinic back some years ago, and Mark said he had never seen a horse like him... :(
I love this horse to pieces, and don't want to do anything to hurt him...
I don't ever get mad at HIM, I get mad at myself for not being able to figure him out...I don't think it's something he is doing on purpose to be a brat...

Brigitte

10-08-2006, 10:05 PM

Seems like when you got on you flexed him again, how about just standing there a second, let him calm down. He's already stressed about flexing and you trying to get on, and flexing him again when you get on seems like more of a punishment then reward for finally standing still.

Bonnie M

10-08-2006, 10:45 PM

Joy LUNGE THE CRAP out of him!

One of my geldings would not stand for anything. Took off with me once and I came off. That is when I learned to lunge.

Get him all tacked up and lunge him....do it until he is about to fall down. I would lunge him several days before you try getting back on.

My gelding once he was lunged, would actually follow me around, just like the Horse Whisperer. He stands without any problem now, but I do lunge him before Every ride.

I agree with the others that said he looks like he is getting frustrated and confused. Looks like he is thinking you want him to turn and back.

motorgypsy

10-08-2006, 11:47 PM

Well don't get mad at yourself either. Unless you can walk on water you're entitled to do a few things wrong on rare occasions ;-) ;-) ;-) He'll just have to deal with it and he will because he knows you love him.

I know - you just need another horse!!

You may think this is funny but when we just had two we would get very frustrated with them when we didn't feel we were making progress. Once we got four then five then six and so on we could just leave the one alone for a bit when we got frustrated and go work with a different one with a different set of probems. It made a huge difference in our attitude toward the first one - who it turned out was lots better than several of the others!!

PasoJoy

10-09-2006, 12:00 AM

ROFL, MG's!!! I agree.. 8-) And I will tell my husband that I was TOLD, by a very respected source, that another horse would absolutely help the matter... :D

Boyd R

10-09-2006, 12:03 AM

I have only watched your video half way through and not read any of the posts.
But if this is not a horse with some serious pain issues I am elmer fudd.

CarolU

10-09-2006, 12:18 AM

I think you need to teach him a 'stand and relax cue' with his head down. I teach them to drop their head when I point at the ground and say "DOWN"...I do this on the ground until they know it thoroughly. Then when you go to get on him (or do anything they're nervous about) point to the ground and say DOWN and get him to lower his head and relax. This is teaching him that what you want is for him to stand there relaxed. Then start doing as Terry said, put your foot in, take it out, any time he moves have him lower his head and relax (and MG's are right - no caffine - you have to be relaxed too!). Don't be in a hurry, you're teaching him to stand there and relax for mounting. Take your time and patch the holes in his foundation. It'll be worth it very quickly.

Pasofinoguy

10-09-2006, 01:02 AM

Now this is a good pic of nemi who tom had just lunged and she is hooked on to him. He is walking with no line to her but she still follows him.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i128/resortepiloto/Nemesis/100_1756.jpg

motorgypsy

10-09-2006, 04:38 AM

This is another technique that works - making it more difficult to do the wrong thing than the right thing. The problem with our guys is usually considering the age and energy level of many of our riders and that of our horses, they tend to outlast us which is why we turned to clicker for flat walk and standing still.

The beauty of clicker training is that the click makes it so very clear to the horse that they are doing the right thing. You don't have to reward with a yummy once they catch on but it helps a lot in the beginning to use yummies rather than scratches simply because the yummies really get them to pay attention and try extra hard to do what you are asking. Once they understand about the click you can wait until they have done several tasks before rewarding and the reward can be a scratch or just a release. I can't emphasize enough just how fast and powerful this technique is for teaching a specific task, especially if the horse is having trouble with it and you're both getting frustrated.

cowboy ed

10-09-2006, 12:43 PM

hi pasojoy, i was gone this weekend, so i just got a chance to see your video. a few observations. you cant do lateral flexions properly with that kind of bit in your horse's mouth. your horse cannot relax and flex properly when you are pulling on that type of bit in that direction. as you can see, all you are getting is discomfort and frustration. your horse just wants to back up when he feels that pressure. you arent getting the lateral pressure that you need in order to properly teach him the lateral flexions. start over using just a halter and leadline. you need to be able to stand near your horse's hip when you do the lateral flexions, not near the shoulder like you are in the video. once your horse learns to flex and relax, then you can use your bosal, but not a shanked bit. when your horse is doing the lateral flexions very well, you can do it with a snaffle bit.
the way things are going for you now, you are fighting, not training. you dont need to ride this horse until you and your horse do a complete series of ground work training.

do not, i repeat, do not use lateral flexions OR lunging for punishment. all you will get is more discomfort and frustration for you and the horse.

from what i see, this horse does not have pain issues, he just has a pissy, spoiled rotten attitude. excuse me for being blunt.

Terry Wallace

10-09-2006, 12:54 PM

Sounds like another "jump started" paso to me....

I'd be real surprised if longing the crap out of him did not make him WORSE.

For me. I never...never longe a horse to try and correct a problem...its just not reliable. He needs to learn to stand and RELAX...not to go 100 miles in a circle... he sounds to me like he will gladly run circles around you, and then he will be all worked up from it....

SLOW the whole process down.... baby steps...baby steps till he is bored...
till he learns to relax. Till he learns he must stand for a minute or two before he is ALLOWED to move.

PasoJoy

10-09-2006, 01:11 PM

Terry, I do believe you to be correct...I think this horse was pushed too hard, too fast and he cannot get past that.
I will go back to basics with him again. No, I will not lunge him...he has a big motor, lunging, I'm sure, will make him worse...it will just fire him up more...and he has WAY more stamina than me... :-?
Ed he flexes perfect with a halter and lead, and is perfectly relaxed. I will try it with a bosal..but I am quite sure he will flex a million times relaxed, but when I go to even 'lift' my foot up anywhere near the saddle he's a whole nother horse..
He is more relaxed in his paddock, so I will try to build off that...and I won't ride him..(even though it will KILL me cause I love to ride that boy)
Boyd, it's not a pain issue...I've been through all that.. :(
THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE~~I REALLY APPRECIATE EVERYONE TRYING TO HELP POETA AND ME :smile:

Carol Nelson

10-09-2006, 01:21 PM

Joy, you are getting great advice from Ed and Terry, although I do disagree with Ed...I DO see some pain issues there...probably not from what you are doing but from EXPECTED PAIN.
I'm not a trainer at all...in fact, I'm looking for a trainer...but my recommendation is to find some old training videos of how they used to train Paso Finos. It will be so helpful to you to see how Pasos are trained by some of the old methods...which is how your boy was most likely trained. When I watched some old videos, it opened up my eyes to "oh, now THAT'S why she does this...." or "THAT'S why she is this way...."
Terry is so right...this looks like a horse that was "jump-started" and has real issues with that. I agree with whomever said to get that bit out of his mouth first...find him a bit that he isn't objective to...and start there. While those types of bits do give them the pretty headset (and unfortunately a lot of Pasos do not ride in anything else) they are not a good bit for trail riding and that is what you're obviously wanting to do with him.
As far as the mounting issues, he is not wanting to be mounted....and while you say you don't feel he is dangerous, he IS dangerous to you. I am not so sure how I feel about the flexing which so many people push...I have seen horses (in fact I have some) that use the flexing to get out of WORKING..."If I flex, I won't have to go anywhere..." and we don't use it a lot...if much at all.
I agree with getting him to stand first...teach him to ground tie...and once you have him willing to stand (since horses are basically lazy, most the time they are very willing to stand) then the mounting lessons should come easier. Also get a book on acupressure and learn the pressure points so you can give your horse some back treatments yourself...I think he does have an issue with something hurting him...whether real or remembered....

cowboy ed

10-09-2006, 01:21 PM

no, he doesnt flex perfectly. if he did, he would do it, even with a bad bit in his mouth. he is fooling you. he will give a little, but you have been releasing him too soon. if he was doing the lateral flexions properly, he would relax and stand still until you release him, whether it be 5 seconds or five minutes. i would bet money that when you do the lateral flexions with him, if you hold his head around for more than a few seconds, he starts fidgeting and moving away from you.

Terry Wallace

10-09-2006, 01:24 PM

Don't "not ride" him.... I mean don't feel like you cannot ride him...on the contrary... ride, get off, ride, get off, practice the art of the stand and being still.... horses learn best by consistancy.... One cue that works well for me is to just rest your right hand on the neck about 10" in front of your saddle, while you ask "stand" from the saddle.

Ride him around an enclosed area....round pen, training arena, while you are getting on & off, on & off...and asking him to stand. Be very clear with your signal. If you put your foot in the stirrup and he moves even an inch...take out your foot and repeat, repeat...do not be in a hurry. It will take time to correct this.... it would laso help if you will exhale loud enough for him to hear you every time your foot goes in the stirrup.

When you observe that he too is exhaling, you are starting to "get there".
Act like slow motion if you have to... act like nothing is wrong...and do not yell at him or raise your voice when he moves...just repostion and repeat, repeat.

CarolU

10-09-2006, 01:34 PM

I agree with Terry 100% and want to add one word, CONSISTENCY. When you are retraining (actually he was probably never taught to stand in the first place) always, everytime, stop your mounting and get him to stand and relax right there before proceeding WITHOUT any anger or impatience on your part. You let him take one step, it'll turn into 2, 3, 4, and you'll have to start all over. Patience is the MAGIC word to horse training...take as long as it takes to train him to stand for mounting. If you relax into the lesson, I think you'll be surprised how quickly he'll relax into it.

I think that when you put that bit in his mouth you are bringing back BAD memories, and yes PAIN could well have a lot to do with them. You don't need a spade for trail riding. Reteach everything with the jaquima or hackamore first, then add a mild bit and DO NOT USE IT for flexing for mounting, use two reins and flex first with the rein on the hackamore. Ideally, you will have taught him to STAND for mounting on a loose rein already and won't need to flex him for mounting at all.

I agree with Ed about retraining his flex too...retrain it until he stands and RELAXES with it. You let him go when he's bracey, all he learns is to be bracey.

Candice Burger

10-09-2006, 01:54 PM

ed is 110% correct about performing the "traditional" flexing with a curb bit. Never, ever perform harsh and coarse lateral flexions with a curb bit-never. That causes allot of pain because of the over-cueing and too much signal. Lateral flexions on a curb bit are subtle and light. A "finished" horse NO longer needs the type of "flexing" seen in paso riding or training. IT IS WRONG AND INCORRECT! Your horse is telling you that.

I'm in with ed and Terry. Good advice.

motorgypsy

10-09-2006, 02:10 PM

Thanks Candy and everyone else. Such great info!!!

Terry the hand above the withers is a great idea as a relax cue. I've notice that if I "pet" a horse like a cat running my hand from behind the ears down the mane to the withers, that it has a very relaxing effect on them - even more so than rubbing the forehead so it would be a very easy transition to go from a stroke to just resting the hand above the withers as a relax cue. To carry it a bit further you can press down on that area until the horse drops the head, then release the pressure as a signal that they have done the correct thing.

Pat Parelli made the comment once that a horse is never afraid of a drunk because a drunk doesn't act like a predator. Perhaps if you do a "loosey goosey" walk all around the horse picking up your foot to the stirrup and then back down and doing the walk all around again and putting the foot up and back down again and walking away again all loose that he may forget to get antsy because you may be subconsiously tensing and transmitting fear to him since you are anticipating misbehavior from him. This is why the second horse is so helpful. They help you forget all about horse number 1's problems so you don't tense all up when getting ready to mount. Maybe a mini??? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: But seriously the minute you feel yourself getting tense I'd strongly suggest that you do something with him that he's good at so you'll feel good about him before you start the mounting thing again.

They read you like a book and if you are the slightest bit tense it is a signal to him to flee because something bad is coming. At some point in his life mounting with stirrups has caused him a problem I suspect and they do remember everything so now he has to be retaught that it's OK and nothing bad will happen to him when you mount. He will learn this but yes it will take time. Have you tried singing to him. Sometimes this does help - might help you relax anyway!!

The fact that you can mount bareback leads me to believe that there is something else going on. What about mounting like bareback without using the stirrups? Do you have a flat English saddle you can do that with? I don't mean leave the stirrups off but just mount without them??? If he's OK with this you've diagnosed your problem at least - that there's something about mounting with stirrups that is "bad" in his mind. And honestly if you can mount him with the saddle bareback style I would just do it for a while, enjoy riding him, and I'd be willing to bet the other behavior will just entinguish on its own.

Chinook used to be terrified of whips. If you had one within 50 feet of her she'd shake like a leaf. So I just never used any kind of whip near her. Now she totally ignores them and has no fear of them at all. It's kind of like if the front door sticks, use the back door until you have time to fix the front door and in fact if the humidity drops the front door will fix itself! ;-) ;-) ;-)

Terry Wallace

10-09-2006, 02:14 PM

Just a note....I use that area on the neck, as that is where their momma touches them most when they are foals.... and because it works for me... ;-)

You don't have to be in the saddle to use it either... it can be done from standing beside the horse as well...

CarolU

10-09-2006, 02:23 PM

Yes, that is a good, "relax and lower your head" cue...and I use it too.

I was thinking about Boyd's and MG's comment. Get rid of the bit and try mounting with the halter. That should tell you if it is pain from the bit or saddle. I know you use a treeless saddle and it shouldn't hurt the horse, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have pain memory from being mounted and riden with a painful saddle. He doesn't know that this one won't hurt. Check his back, have a vet check his back. You may need to let it heal, or you may need to retrain that it doesn't hurt. I'd still do like Terry suggested, or you could train him to a mounting block without the saddle and then use it to get into the saddle without the stirrup. I have a friend here who's saddle ruined her horse's back for almost a year, and then she had the same mounting problems you are having. The mounting block worked for her.

Bonnie M

10-09-2006, 02:51 PM

I wasn't saying to lunge him as a punishment. But a way to start out working before you are riding him.

It has worked for me to lunge them first. I said to lunge the crap out of him because you said it that lungeing him made it worse, so I was thinking you just weren't lungeing him enough.

I get the same reaction as in Adam's pic of the horse following me after lungeing.

CarolU

10-09-2006, 03:04 PM

Bonnie, I tried lunging before too, and I have to agree that it doesn't work in this situation. The horse needs to learn to stand and relax. Yes, lunging can teach a horse respect and 'forming up' as in the picture, but that is a different lesson then standing for mounting. All you get when you 'lunge the crap' out of horses like this is a horse in better condition that can keep fussing longer.

Linda Y

10-09-2006, 03:05 PM

I don't know why so many Paso people think you have to use that blinkin spade bit on a horse. Because it is tradition? Because everyone else does? Poo!
My gelding Cass acted very much like your horse when I got him. After the first ride, I switched him to a short shank, low port grazing bit. It was like riding a different horse! He relaxed. He knew his mouth wasn't going to be hurt.
Just listen to him. He is trying very hard to tell you how frustrated he is. And I agree, he was probably the product of jump start training, a 30 day wonder.

CarolU

10-09-2006, 03:12 PM

Yes Linda, I have a mare here now for retraining to stand for mounting, walk flat, and relax under saddle, and all it took to achieve all three was a relax cue, change of bit to a mild port Myler, and a treeless saddle. She's as happy as clam...oh yeah, the buck disapeared too.

Horses only have one way to communicate with you. I would bet that 99% of behavior problems in horses result from pain from tack or frustration from not KNOWING what is expected of them (proper training). If they are fussing, there is a reason. Yes, it can be a spoiled horse, but I'd eleminate all other reasons first, and if you retrain, you take care of the spoiled part in the process.

PasoJoy

10-09-2006, 04:53 PM

I believe it is a pain issue, but a 'remembered pain'...I don't think he is unhappy with the bit, that day yes, I had it up a little too high I think. He is not usually 'bothered' by it at all. It is an open port, 5" S-type shank, I have tried snaffle bits on him, and get the same reaction as far as the whole mounting thing, I have tried a gammut of saddles, have had the vet out and had chiropractic done on him....
What I DON'T do is my own fault...I am NOT consistent...how can I expect my horse to be trained, if I can't train myself.. :oops:

Linda Y

10-09-2006, 05:03 PM

OK, you can jump on me if you wish, but I HATE snaffle bits! They can be harsher than the blinkin spades. They were not made to be used on a horse that requires collection. I am talking about shanked snaffles. They are just plain torture devices.
If this were my horse, I would try him in a very mild grazing type bit or a good Myler. I wouldn't be flexing him with the bit. He is getting mixed signals about that. If you feel you need to flex, put him in double reins and flex him with the jaquima.

paintedhorizon

10-09-2006, 05:35 PM

I want to hugely ditto this. You cannot flex correctly with that bit. GOOD LUCK AND GOOD FOR YOU FOR ASKING!!!I was thinking about Boyd's and MG's comment. Get rid of the bit and try mounting with the halter. That should tell you if it is pain from the bit or saddle

Terry Wallace

10-09-2006, 05:38 PM

LINDA....how about if I JUMP...in right beside you and nod my head in agreement to what you are saying (grin) !!! :lol: :D

roadrunner

10-11-2006, 04:25 AM

Most of our guys really like a spoon bit. We generally use a short shank myler with a fairly wide port and independent shanks but we've had no problem with a spoon either. Now they do hate a snaffle and a broken mouthpiece curb bit. We're always careful to get mylers that don't collapse in on the mouth and pinch. We also use bit guards. I'd be willing to bet though that there's a bad saddle memory out there somewhere or a bad mounting memory and that he may well be fine with a saddle as long as a mounting block is used. But you do have to sing to him!!!

PasoJoy

10-11-2006, 12:55 PM

It's funny you say that M/Gs...about the singing...I DO sing to him all the time when I ride him (we usually go alone so no one has to suffer but him)..I started doing it to try and calm him down under saddle, I figured if nothing else it was helping me breathe deeply.. :shock:
I am also thinking a memory of pain from a saddle...he has some white hairs on top of his withers that don't 'belong' there....(he also has those 'training bumps' on the bridge of his nose)..I have tried getting on him from a mounting block...you have to be quick at getting your feet in the stirrups cause the minute you sit down he of OFF like a rocket..
but he will stand stock still and let me get on him with NO tack on, and be perfectly relaxed...if I could 'jump' up on him from the ground he would let me (but even though he is not very tall, I still can't do it..) so I have tried it with a 'mounting' bucket :shock: and he will stand perfectly still...I am going to experiment with this...putting more and more tack on him, and maybe I can pinpoint the moment when he starts getting anxious..

Beth Worden

10-11-2006, 01:19 PM

OK - Here's my take... he has become really sick of a human hauling themselves up onto his back. The saddle he was wearing (this is back when) would twist and hurt his withers. Obviously someone along the way discovered this and decided to teach him to be mounted from a mounting block of some kind. AND, did a darn good job from the sounds of it. You say he stands perfectly still and is fine with it. Do you know the #1 reason people will ask me to take a horse in to train? It is to stand quietly while mounting FROM A MOUNTING BLOCK. My question is...why do you NEED to mount him from the ground? Do you plan on showing him? If not, I will let you in on a secret. It is MUCH easier on a horse to mount from a mounting block, tree stump, picnic table, etc. I ride with treeless saddles and NEVER mount from the ground because I don't want to have to screw a saddle down so tight that it will stay stuck while I pull myself up onto the horse. And many people (myself included) are not agile enough to swing up gracefully and cause the least amount of tension on the saddle. I don't know...I think the horse is trained right - I think you should re-think your reason for mounting from the ground. JMO

Terry Wallace

10-11-2006, 01:22 PM

Just another word on mounting blocks (I use one always now)..
Be sure to include using that mounting block when you groom, so he can get used to you being "above" him in any situation...it may help him to stand calm ...longer

PasoJoy

10-11-2006, 01:37 PM

It has SOMETHING to do with tack...I have tried a mounting 'block' to get on, with him TACKED UP and he is a different horse. You have to make sure you are ready to TAKE OFF when your butt hits the saddle :shock: His eyes 'glaze over' and he will not keep his feet still...like the bomb is about to drop...
I'm going to try and see exactly which piece of tack triggers this response...

Beth Worden

10-11-2006, 01:45 PM

A tip for getting him to stand after you have hit the saddle...Reach up over the saddle and make him bend his head toward the stirrup on the off side while you are standing on the bucket. Give him his treat. Then mount and give him a treat from the saddle. The first couple times he will probably try to bolt as always but pull him up and offer the treat. 2-3 times of this and he will be expecting his "cookie" when you hit the saddle and will stand still. He is not hurting now with the tack you are using. He just "thinks" he is going to hurt. It's the pulling on the saddle - trust me. I never used to train with "treats" but even an old horse can learn new tricks. There are other methods, but the cookie one works just as well and what the heck, you are not trying to impress anyone, right? Just trying to get on a relaxed horse.