Another color question

[PasoVicki]

I registered Capri as black, but he's looking less black all the time -- at least in comparison to Danesa, who is very black. I'm wondering whether black foals go through color stages . . . or whether he isn't black, after all.

Here are a few photos I snapped today. You'll have to excuse the way he's standing -- the ground right there is very uneven, but I was trying to put him someplace close to my daughter's pony, Starlight, who is also black. You can barely see her there on the other side of the pipe corral.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g239/SoCalPaso/Capricolor1.jpg



http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g239/SoCalPaso/Capricolor2.jpg



http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g239/SoCalPaso/Capricolor3.jpg



His mom, Danesa, is non-homogenous black (very dark black). His sire is listed as grullo going gray (sire's dam was gray; sire's sire was golden buckskin). I don't see any white hair on Capri yet, but -- if you can see his ears in the photos -- the insides are a light tan color.

So, is this kind of golden brown color a stage of black? Or might he be something else? Smokey black . . . an odd shade of bay . . . ???

[Terry Wallace]

He looks brown to me. Brown horses have black points like that, and you can see the lighter color above hocks, knees and on the face, and in the mane.

He could be "fading black" while his mom is non-fading black. To me he looks brown though.

[Polly Aulton]

One thing you see a lot of if you're raising TWs are black horses. LOL
He looks perfectly normal for a black colt. He'll go through several color changes. Terry could well be right though--he might be a fading black and your other two horses are not. Did the sire possess a cream gene? If not then you've just got a pretty plain ol' black horse. Otherwise you might have a smoky black. They often look kinda brownish. If you don't like his color--send him out here I'll take him.
Polly

[Heidi]

I think he's a fading black. These pics were taken at the end of summer and his hair looks sunburnt to me. I bet when his winter coat comes in, and next spring when he sheds...he's gonna be black, black, black!

[CarolU]

I think I'll go with Heidi's thoughts, fading black. Zar does this at the end of every summer and every fall, her black sunburns to brown in many places. She is still black around the eyes and muzzle, which are brown in brown horses.

[Terry Wallace]

he could be fading black..but he sure looks brown around his muzzle, around his eyes, inside of his hocks & knees....

Quick Guide to Bay & brown (Horse Color Explained, a Breeder's Prospective by Jeanette Gower):

Brown is a black horse that has been genetically altered to have lighter color on the soft parts.

Bay is a black horse that has been genetically altered to have a lighter, mostly red body color and head, leaving black in the legs, mane & tail.

The genetic alteration is brought about by genes of the A series, which result in bay being dominant over brown, and brown is dominant over black.

Black:

A black horse is ALL black, except that white markings may be present.

Black is the second most recessive color after chestnut.

There are two types of black horse, fading & non-fading.

Non-fading black (jet black) is recessive to fading black due to the intensifying gene being affected by the fading gene.

Fading black to fading black can give jet black.

Jet black bred to jet black gives jet black 75 percent of progency and dark chestnut in 25 percent.

Brown..the English term is black-brown, the American seal-brown. It describes the darkest form of brown. It may have a jet black body but the
lighter muzzle and flanks are the give-away. The muzzle coloring is usually more obvious in winter coat.

[Heidi]

I'm unfamiliar with the terms brown and seal brown. Are these what are sometimes called Dark Bay?

[Terry Wallace]

I just noticed....The horse posted "For Niki" in the Colombian forum, by Pasojoy..looks to be a very good example of fading black. he is not brown around eyes or muzzle, but is obviously faded from jet black.

[PasoVicki]

I can't wait to see whether he sheds out black again next spring. He had quite a bit of that mottled golden brown color when he shed out his first foal coat, but he has more now. It really doesn't look sunburned, though; it's actually quite bright and shiny. I think I'll keep him -- whatever color he may be -- I'm rather attached to him. ';-)'

By the way, where does "brown" fit into the genetic scheme of things? In other words, is it red based? Black based? Some specfic combination of other color genes? Unless I was looking in the wrong place, brown isn't even listed as a possible color on equinecolor.com.

[PasoVicki]

Thanks, Terry, you must have read my mind. You were posting that genetic explanation while I was writing my question.

[GeorgeGuns]

Hmmm.. My first impression is a really dark seal bay which can look very black if the soot gene is heavily expressed - does his muzzle stay that dark all the time? That would nix my impression. Next guess is black with a weak dun expression - grulla can go in quite a variety of shades, and if I understand what I read a few years ago, he is a "lobo dun" which will be born or shed out quite black, and stay pretty darned dark. If daddy is a grullo (did I read that right?), I think this might be the most plausible explanation.

and then there is my usual - WHO CARES! He's GORGEOUS! He really is a handsome fella :D

[Terry Wallace]

Heidi..I have a seal bay...or black-bay this is her.....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/CaoticaandribbonEMAIL.jpg

[Heidi]

...Coatica...is she a daughter of your pinto mare?
Could she be called a dark bay? That is what I would call TBs of that color...

[Cindy]

Terry, what is the difference in that horse, seal bay and a brown horse? I have never understood the term brown. To me the horses that are called brown are seal/dark bays. I can't figure out what the difference is supposed to be.

[Terry Wallace]

Caotica is not the daughter of my pinto mare. She is the daughter of a black mare, and Stella's Embellazo..a brown stallion. In the TB world, she would be called dark bay OR black-bay.
I will scan the page about brown and get it posted here....

[Terry Wallace]

Here is the beginning paragraph of the preceeding page to this one:

BROWN:
Shades of brown or black hair are spread over the body except in the soft parts, those areas around the muzzle, eyebrows, quarters, flank and girth which show a gradation to lighter color. These areas are frequently described as "mealy" if....
(and now continue to this page)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/BayandBrownWEB.jpg

[Cindy]

Thanks but that didn't help. I still see brown as the same as dark bay. Is it genetically different than bay? Can you test for brown and do they not show the agouti gene?

[Terry Wallace]

Page one....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/BrownBayinterrelationshipsWEB.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

Page two...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/BrownBayinterrelationshipspg2WEB.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

If any of this is too small to read...pm me and I will email it to you in a larger size....

[PasoVicki]

The most I can tell from those pages, Terry, is that even the "experts" disagree on how equine colors genes work. Almost everything I read about color genes is different / contradictory.

You called Caotica a black bay or seal bay, but the closest thing I see to her color on the pages you posted is called seal brown. What does your book say about seal bay?

I'm getting more confused all the time.

[Cindy]

Ditto, Vicky.

[Heidi]

If it has an E with AA or Aa, it is BAY.
If it has black legs/mane/tail, it is BAY.

I think what they are calling 'brown' is a variation of a shade of bay.

[Terry Wallace]

it does not recognize seal bay as being a "real" color. (in Horse Colors book)
In the book Horse Color by Sponnenberg & Beaver..they state....
The various colors with black points are: BLACK (body black) BROWN (body brown) BAY (body red) Grullo (body slate) and buckskin (body yellow).
It goes on to say.... BROWN consists of fairly uniform shades of body color that occur between red (bay) & black. Brown is used to describe those horses with black points whose bodies are a shade of brown with no red in it. Seal brown is a special type of brown that is close to black. Seal brown can be distinguished from black only because lighter brown or yellow areas occur on the muzzle, over the eyes, on the flanks, and on the insides of the legs. Seal brown may represent one of the ancestral colors of the horse, since it is seen in the Exmoor Pony, which is a primative breed.

What you will find is that different registries recognize different names of the same color. There is always confusion where colors are concerned.

It all comes down to the parents, and how the offspring tests out.

[Soltera]

... lighter brown or yellow areas occur on the muzzle, over the eyes, on the flanks, and on the insides of the legs...

Seal brown, for "primitive breeds" is also called "pangare", pronounced PAN- gah-RAY. It's a throwback to the Jennet, or maybe even further, since the Exmoors show it, too. It's just like the TB photo of "Little Abby" you posted.

Since my gelding is a pangare with a white star and one white foot, I've noticed, it seems, thousands of Paso Finos with the same markings. Nearly drove me crazy at the Nationals!

There's a new word for everybody!':lol:'

I'd post a picture, but the way I did it before does not seem to work today.