Good buy or stars in my eye?

[Soltera]

Just wondering if ya'll could help me with a question. There is a stallion available for sale, 12 yo, grandsires are Amadeus and Bochica. He already has 3 or 4 nice foals and weanlings on the ground: square, balanced, friendly and really gaited. This stud's selling price is reasonable (under $6K), he is saddle trained but rarely ridden (never shown), a real handful on the leadrope but not mean.

Am I going to get stuck with this stallion, do you think? I mean, could I ever resell him? What if he's too wild under saddle (I kind of have to buy without a trial ride)? Aren't those genetics, with nice get already on the ground, good enough to keep him just for breeding? He's not much to look at, very correct, but his foals are prettier than he is....sorry, I've seen him but don't have pictures.

Is 12 yo too old? I'm used to handling "difficult" stallions and helping with breedings, so I know I'd be safe, and I have a good stallion paddock. But am I letting his pedigree and riding/showing potential get in the way of common sense? Any advice?

[Terry Wallace]

Welll depends on what your purpose for him is. Are genetics alone reason enough to keep a horse entire...heavens NO!

How come you can't ride him to try him? I had a Bochica grandaughter and she was rough as a cob to ride...she was very straight shouldered and had no largo at all...

Did you get video on him? Is he as good looking as your horse in your avatar?

Yes...you might get "stuck" with a stallion...but then you could probably sell him easier if gelded and o.k. to ride.

[DSDECKERT]

If you can't get out to ride him, maybe you can ask someone closer to go look at/try him for you? Everyone one the BB is super helpful, I'm sure you could find someone to take a look at him.

[Soltera]

No video, no. And not nearly as (Look At Me) striking as Vesuvio, my sweet avatar. But the stallion in question is very correct, 14hh or maybe 13.3, solid black. His babies are wonderful, but I haven't seen any under saddle. This sale is going to happen soon, with me or without me, no time to do too much research, kind of a hard luck sale. I'd give him the best and make sure he had a good life even if I did have to resell him, gelded or intact.

Do you think I could sell some breedings? Darn, it's such a good opportunity if he turns out to be great under saddle, too. Have to sell my gelding to make room, but.... Maybe I could post some pics of his offspring?

He's been bred every season since he was quite young, I think, so the gelding might not "take"; I guess that is what really worries me - kind of a worst case scenario, damage control issue. And maybe I'll just have to go ride him, but he might be gone by then. Big sigh.

[Terry Wallace]

I don't know...about selling breedings...who has he been breeding, outside mares or mares owned by the owner?

Since he has no show records or any kind of "riding" records...you are pretty much relying on what his offspring does for "reasons to breed" to this horse. I would speculate that you won't sell many breedings due to these factors.

That and the fact that a person can breed to highly renown Pasos for small breeding fees, anywhere from $750 to $1500 (or higher of course) will get you breedings to a proven horse. Less guesswork, higher probabilty of profit in seeling offspring.

C'mon other stallion owners...lets hear your comments...!
How has selling breedings gone for you with basically unproven horses?

[appyday]

I paid more then that for me "trail stallion"

[Terry Wallace]

Appy..how long have you had him now and how many breedings have you sold?

[Carol Nelson]

What bothers me is he is twelve and only 3-4 babies...even Red had 8 babies at 7 years of age. As a stallion owner in an out of the way location may I point out some things. First off, if you are not in a big Paso Fino area, and don't have a SPECTACULAR...or homozygous Pinto...or cremello or some such out of the ordinary quality in your stallion...don't expect to sell many breedings.
If you are wealthy and can spend megabucks on advertising and getting your stallion to shows...then you MIGHT book a few more breedings...but let me point out one thing to you, most of the people at local small shows are breeders with their own stallions there looking to get business for their own horses...not likely looking for other outside stallions to breed to. And the small percentage of folks there actually looking for a stallion to breed to are gonna be looking at all the other stallions at the show so yours has to be the best.
And while Amadeus and Bochica both are good names...they are not the HOT bloodlines so famous today.
If you have some conception that you are going to get rich off of having a stallion offered for stud...guess again! Unless like I say, you have something rare. That is why we are hoping someday to raise a homozygous black and white Pinto of exceptional quality for another stallion.
You say that he is nowhere near as nice as the guy in your avatar...well, that stallion is nice...if he is not that good...then take a good hard second look at him. :smile:

[Soltera]

Carol, Terry, wow, lots to think about! What an incredible bunch of people you are to be so helpful!

I don't have megabucks, and live way out in the sticks, so I guess what ya'll are saying is that it's not reasonable to think I'll make much profit even with low breeding fees ($500?) without giving folks a reason to choose him over the proven studs. I have living proof with the current foal crop, but don't know if I'll have access to his other get. He's imported, if that helps.

I'd still also like to know if Appy has sold any breedings (love your website, appy!).

(The horse in my avatar is a gelding, unfortunately, although they'd have left him intact were it not for a bit too much attitude. Fixed him, though.)

[Terry Wallace]

$500 breeding fees might not actually attract people either.... some will think "He must not be very good for $500 breeding fee".
Did you know you can bid high profile horses for half of the fee at the PFHA stallion auction? I have been successfull on bidding there both times I tried it... My good friend Carol P ONLY bids on PFHA auction stallions, that is how she got her Jaranero filly and her Pedregal colt...bidding begins at half price....and out of all the stallions that are up for bid...I think I read only 20% ever get bid on in a given year....not real good statistics for the stallion owners...but a whale of a good buy for bidders to be able to breed to top stallions at reduced prices...

Many of the regions also have stallion auctions and futurity programs for their members stallions... we have some EXCELLENT ones in out region... very well proven in both their own merits and that of their offspring...I site Petrolero and Contratista as two of them... there are more..very worth-while breeding stallions here..proven, with their TOP and or LOM already secured.

With the market already suffering so bad...its kind of like why breed to a no-name/done nothing horse when you can go to the top...I mean clear to the top..to Capuchino or others for a mere $3500.... Personally, I have not seen anything like what goes on in Paso Finos as to pricing of top horse's fees...they are CHEAP...compared to other breeds...and still not booking all that many mares.

[PattiB]

We have three stallions and haven't sold any breedings this year. I have bought good breedings from the Stallion Service Auction, half price for a known producer for $500 or $500 for an unknown, I'll take the known producer.

[Soltera]

Wow, ouch and yikes. Y'know, the basic affordability of PF's is a big draw for me....kind of levels the playing field. Lots to think about now. My eternal gratitude for your assistance. Will let you know what happens (going to go make the decision now...)!!!!

[Terry Wallace]

At least go get some pics of him! You know we want to see...and could maybe tell you if he's the "kind" some folks here would breed to or not.

I have two stallions standing around here right now... one bred NO mares last year (I'm not breeding anymore for foals here...it don't pay) and I have but two breedings I know of for next year to outside mares...so they are not even paying for their own feed & upkeep.

In fairness...I have not advertised, but likely will by winter's end. One is an unproven two year old that will be three in the spring and I owe a breeding for him to an outside mare. The other has been shown, but only once and took second... what have they got to offer....SIZE. Size, good gait and good confo. One is already 15HH and the other will be over 15HH.
I have found that here... size is what sells... small Pasos don't sell wel, for me at all. That is why I sold them all...everything under 14.2HH...gone or going...

[Soltera]

Well, pictures and a test ride will be the next order of business. I'll get them posted ASAP.

Kind of scary to hear of people going to all the trouble of keeping a stallion then not getting breedings enough to justify the time and trouble. This guy is not tall, maybe 14.1 hh at the most, but good conformation and gait and get on the ground with even better confo and very gaited. But just three or four. :cry:

Everything under 14.2? Wow. But I've lost my Money Tree seeds....can't find 'em anywhere, so I guess the market will be heeded. Sigh.

Thanks again for all your help!

[britzlove]

Looks like you've got some pretty sound advice from many angles of this. My own advice would be that you might want to look at him if you want him for a possible gelding prospect. I do not subscribe to the idea that gelding older stallions is wasted. I know many, many good stallions that became awesome geldings at the end of their breeding career.
I also agree with the others that making money, recovering money in the breeding shed is for the most part a losing proposition. Unless very lucky or perhaps very dishonest which I know you aren't.

With your training knowledge though I would certainly think about it from the gelding angle. I know people that have paid much more than that for a good riding gelding.

Keep us posted!

Britz

[Terry Wallace]

Keep in mind that under 14.2HH is what I have learned in my area...of "what not to keep". Every small Paso I have sold has gone to the east coast (better market for small horses) except one who went to California. The only horse that remained in Colorado was a 14.1HH mare.

When people see the horses I take to rides...they always want "those"...those bigger, taller horses...but then, I personally need a bigger horse, and many people WANT a bigger horse than 14HH.
That is soley based on my own experience with Paso Finos going on ten years now... I personally found it much easier to sell Quarter Horses and Andalusians than Paso Finos, and for the most part, the Quarters & Andys are much bigger than the Pasos in general.

It is tough competing against larger horses, TWH, Rockies, AQHA, Warmbloods. etc.... I just am not aquainted with many riders who are not concerned about how they look on their horse...they don't want to look like they are on a pony is what I mean.... My own husband included...he is 6' tall.

[appyday]

I would not buy him in the hopes to "make money" I am not sure where you live but that is my opinion. I DID NOT buy Vence to make money. I wanted a trail horse..Mare, gelding or stallion. I found Vence. I had a couple mares so it worked out. I would only buy him if you would be happy if you NEVER sold a breeding.

I have never done advertising for stud service on Vence other then Dreamhorse.com

I have had him 1 1/2 breeding seasons. I have only sold 1 breeding. To a Paso mare I sold and gave her a breeding for 1/2 price ($250) and she is not paying me till after the mare foals. So that does not even cover his insurance for one year...

Again if you want him for your mares or your trail horse then get him..if you think you will recoup money dont PLAN on it.

Actually when I buy a horse even to resell that is nice.. But I don't buy anything that I cant afford to to have drop dead on me the next day monetarily.

[cristy]

It is tough competing against larger horses, TWH, Rockies, AQHA, Warmbloods. etc.... I just am not aquainted with many riders who are not concerned about how they look on their horse...they don't want to look like they are on a pony is what I mean.... My own husband included...he is 6' tall.

Same here, my own husband said he wanted a rocky mountain horse bc they are bigger. I told him only if it came with a divorce, I am a paso only breeder!!! :lol:

As far as this stallion goes I have 2 stallions here, one is a Capuchino son with no show record, he lost an eye in training a long time before I got him. He is sooooo awsome but who cares but me, he has no show record and unless you want to travel to BF west virginia your not gonna see him. (fortunately I did not get him to sell breedings, just wanted to breed my own mares so we are good, I do a little free advertising but I don't loose any sleep over not selling very many breedings.)

The other stallion is new, he is just 5 yo and not under saddle yet. I am thinking about sending him out soon (I think, I think, I think he may be fino) Well I better clarify before someone calls me stupid. He is fino but I don't know if I want him pushed to be fino and be one of the million other good fino horses, or if I want him to be relaxed a little and be a great proformance horse. I did not get him to get rich on outside breedings either, just for my use.

I have rambled a little, my point is I would not buy him unless you can use him yourself. like everyone else said, you will not get rich selling breedings.

btw can you tell us the name of the horse, you never know one of us might know him and be able to give you a little more insight. :D

[Terry Wallace]

Cristy...Rockies have Paso Fino blood! ;-)

[motorgypsy]

I wouldn't buy him unless you really want him just for him. No matter whether we ever breed our stallion again we'd keep him. He's the best riding horse overall we have and he's really cool too!!

[Carol Nelson]

Yes, you have to like your stallion over just about any other stallion in the breed, whether you sell breedings or not.
Big surprise! Red is neither Fino nor Performance. Not to say that he doesn't have PRESENCE!! Believe me, when this boy comes out...he turns heads! But Red is a Pleasure stallion.
When I started to breed Paso Finos, I started with a small broodmare band. I picked the mares that had the qualities I was looking for. #1 - Temperament!
I was in New Mexico when I started...and am now in Texas. Ok, let's look seriously at this. How many people out here are going to want or have use for a Fino trail horse??? Not many. Most are going to want a nice trail horse with a relaxed Pleasure gait. A calm, quiet, easy to ride, dependable mount. Ok, so a Paso Fino with a QH temperament. ;-)
And that is what I looked for when I bought my mares. Those qualities, plus, like Terry said, SIZE. Yes, sad but true, most people want bigger than a 13.2 or 13.3 H. horse. Plus good conformation and good bone. Something that can hold up all day on the trails.
THEN I bought my stallion, Rojo Tejas. Actually I was not even looking for a stallion but Betsy McHugh got to me first! Red had all the qualities to compliment and enhance the mares I had. And he's giving me some totally awesome babies! But again...they are Pleasure horses...with the first ones ready to go under saddle in 2007, I am really excited to find out if what I planned and hoped for is going to come true.
It's a gamble...and sometimes you lose...and sometimes you win! Is there a market for the kind of horse you want to breed in the area that you are in????

[Soltera]

Just cannot tell you ALL how much help this is! You're a wonderful virtual community!

Okay: I love a well behaved stallion for a riding mount, absolutely, so that's a plus. I'd love to show him, too. However, the "market" here, is not "here". The market would be Asheville and via internet. (This area has been devastated by textile and furniture exports - everywhere you look there are empty buildings, forclosures, repo's and household items for sale; no money for horses or anything else.)

His 3 get (colts) I've seen are all solid black with a little star, *very* friendly (even for young'uns), way abve average to stunning conformation, strongly gaited (nothing but gait in pasture up and down steep, rocky pastureage and at speed over rocky stretches), and look like they're going to be average in height - 14.0 to 14.2 maybe? I'm thinking more show horses than trail horses: one is low and quick and may very well finish as fino, the other two look performancy, one of them with very high action.

What do you think the market would be? You know, he is sounding like a better gelding prospect all the time! What a fascinating discussion.

Oh, christy, I know a Rocky breeder who switched to Friesians and would LOVE to sell you a Rockie or two... :-) .... wanted to sell me some, but no way!

[motorgypsy]

You're in the Southeast. There is a much better market here for all sizes of paso finos IF you can sell. Some people can and some can't. You live in the state with the second largest population of paso finos in the US. People in the southeast know and like paso finos. They are perfect for trail and show and even allbreed shows have paso fino classes. They had three classes for paso finos I think in a Spartanburg allbreed show a few days ago and they have a lot of go as you please classes so lots of chance to show and lots of trail rides not too far by trailer. Lots of hunter pace rides that are perfect for paso finos. Lots of endurance rides, lots of parades. Fino or not a paso fino can be an excellent trail mount. The tighter gaited ones just canter more or ride with QH's ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

[cristy]

Yes Terry I know that but so does a Qhorse if you breed it to a Paso Fino, doesn't mean I'd want one. :lol:

Thanks Soltera but there will be no Rockies at this farm.

[Carol Nelson]

Hey, now, there youngster....you ain't seen my Ms. T....1/2 QH, 1/2 Paso Fino ...and gaited! I'll wager you'd want her....if ya saw her in person! ;-)
Her mama's double Hilachas...her papa's double Doc Bar (cuttin' lines)...this girl's built like a ....well, you know... ;-) , cow saavy, and pretty to boot! :D

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/36931DSC00007.JPG.jpg

[Abejita]

I have to totally agree with what everyone else is saying.Here the Boss owns a former GNC Bella Forma Stallion (1992) When I started working her ein 1994, the first couple of years we sold a fair number of breedings and bred a lot of our own mares..He no longer is shown ..has sold no breedings in 3 years other than one two auction purchases.Last year I had two lined up ..both were auction purchases so we got no money..one was a holdover from two years previous (woman had some personal setbacks so I let her carry over This year ,as she could no longer breed her original choice of mares..she decided to breed to another stud.) The other a mare that was bred last year lost her foal at 10 months.Were set to breed in 06..Owner asked to wait until next year to breed back about June. In the meantime since his breeding didnt sell at Nats ..we paid the 200 bucks to keep his offspring nominated as I had 2 people telling me they were breeding.We ended up breeding nothing ...and out that 200 bucks. (Owner is no longer breeding anything for himself.He is 82) I will inform the woman that plans on breeding that if she wants to breed for a sweepstakes eligible horse ..she is gonna have to pay that 200 bucks this year..
He has always produced a consistant type of horse in looks and gait ..BUT people have said "he only produces pleasure' And no- it isnt dead head horses at all..They want more here..SHow quality to them means performance or fino or a real high hocked pleasure.That is also what I have heard is a major fault "he doesnt put enough hock ' on a horse. So Anyone want to buy an 17 yr old Nevado son cheap? I need to start thinking about finding him a good home soon... he needs to be used..there is going to be no profit in it..and...yadayada

[Soltera]

Abejita, are you going to post him to the sales (thread?) on this forum? :shock:

[Terry Wallace]

Sheri...do you have any recent photos of Juan Miguel? The only one I have seen is the pose for the painting, and the painting itself, both have to be at least ten years old right? ...how does he look now? How tall is he?
Maybe Tina C would buy him since he is a Nevado son....

[Abejita]

He sticks at just a hair over 14 Hands. I have some recent pics but not on the comp..(other than his curled up snow nose one)Its supposed to be nice and not blow you away windy tomorrow so maybe I will snap a couple
I need to explain something to everyone..I am just getting to the point where I need to start thinking about selling/placing some of these horses BUT I may run into resistance from the actual owner ;-) BUT I hate to think what will happen if we are here another five or so years and then sut down .Juan will be 18 next May .Not getting younger.I have quite a few pensioners here. One was a past top ten dam multiple years (Maravilla Mejia) She is 25 acts 5 ..
..I am willing to do deals on breeding though! I just want to see him used..
I have thought about contacting Tina..I also have tried discussing some of this with the boss ..buts its real hard getting him to concentrate and understand exactly what I am proposing.I think he doesnt want to face it either..Plus I really think he doesnt understand that the horses are not as young as they used to be and that he doesnt have a full time trainer here working them anymore..

Oh well SOunds like a thread hijack..I will get some pics up in his own threadin a few days..