Article in TRAIL RIDER magazine unflattering to Hilachas

[AliceG]

Anyone seen the NOV/DEC issue of Trail Rider? My sister read the article to me over the phone. The author has a lot of negative things to say about Hilachas and his offspring......about how he was unrideable, etc. Neither my sister nor myself had ever heard that about Hilachas. Is this for real?

[Candice Burger]

Call Dave Jones and find out. PM me for phone number.

Hilachas horses don't like to be treated badly, they are intolerant. And many tended to be diagonal and trocha. If that makes a bad trail horse, they better start putting down some QHs!!!

Hilachas also had allot of heart, stamina, sound conformation and legs. If that makes a great trail horse then everyone should have Hilachas!

[Kerry W]

Dave Jones rode Hilachas...but when it was breeding season, he wouldn't service mares, if he was ridden...so Dave had to make a choice...breed the mares, or ride Hilachas. :lol:

[CarolU]

Hilaches was very intelligent, as are his offspring. People who are easily outsmarted by smart horses, tend to dislike Hilaches.

[Terry Wallace]

Question...is this article available to read on-line? Do any big book stores sell the Trail Rider magazine? Where can I get the article.

What are the unflattering things said and who authored the article?

I'd like to read it.

[SandyMM]

I saw a _lot_ of first generation Hilachas offspring in the showring - many of them had terrible gait and were not easy to handle. I didn't like them. Nobody needs a horse that is too smart for its own good or too 'smart' to cooperate. Plenty of good trainers/owners/riders shy away from Hilachas blood for that reason. The Hilachas blood in a mare I bought for her direct 4 generations of maternal bloodlines (that produced 100% gait, level-headedness, soundness, and excellent disposition) introduced trocha and a disposition that is not 100% willing to cooperate unless they 'feel like it'.... A _good_ horse should always make the effort to understand and cooperate. A horse that's 'too smart' is always looking for a way out and wastes a trainer/owner/rider's time, effort, and money.

There's a huge difference between an intelligent horse and a horse is 'too smart for its rider'...

There are a lot of excellent horsemen who know the Hilachas bloodlines - and don't like them.

[Terry Wallace]

Mark this day on your calendar!!!

Sandy....I agree with you 100%.... This also confirms what I have heard and read about Hilachas. That is one of the reasons I harp on breeding ONLY to GOOD DISPOSITION horses period! A good disposition horse TRIES.
A good disposition horse does not spend most of its time figuring out how to get out of work. A good disposition horse can ALWAYS be ridden....

What it the hardest thing to breed for and get......you guessed it..A GOOD disposition! If you don't have that...you don't "have much"...


I like an intelligent horse too...but not at the expense of its own "undermining"

Here is a question I am wondering about.
How did the foundation sires of PFHA get picked to be foundation sires?
Were they picked by "measuring up"? Were they picked by show records alone? Were they picked by people in charge of PFHA at the time? I know an association HAS to start somewhere... but just how did the PFHA foundation sires come to be?

When I think of TRUE paso Fino foundation sires...I think well ahead of this PFHA generation of horses... I think of the Resortes, I think of Dulce Sueno, I think of Plebeyo..the PPR Plebeyo...the bay one, not the grey one from PFHA fame...

[CarolU]

A horse that's 'too smart' is always looking for a way out and wastes a trainer/owner/rider's time, effort, and money.

There's a huge difference between an intelligent horse and a horse is 'too smart for its rider'...

I have to disagree with this statement. A smart horse is a little more challenging to train because you have to keep their interest or they get bored. But I find them very easy to train, even eager to work and learn new things. The trick is keeping it interesting. Once you open your imagination, there isn't anything they don't WANT to do.

Now the way I'd word the problem is not that the horse is too smart for its rider, but that maybe the rider is too dumb for that particular horse. I mean even the smartest horse in the world is way down the intelligence curve from an average IQ human.

You have to be pretty dumb to let a horse outsmart you...and I'd bet that every one of us has had a horse TRAIN US to do, or not do, something, at one time or another. How many 'no leg' Pasos are out there? How many won't cross water or stand for mounting, or won't flat walk? How many times do you hear, "Oh, my horse won't do that."

[Terry Wallace]

I hear that all the time Carol...and mostly it is because the person either won't take the time to cure it...or doesn't know how to cure it...
Its just like the gelding I just got with the bad rap sheet....

Shoot...there is really nothing wrong with this horse. His former owners had no clue what to do, and when they could not "strong arm" him into "behaving"...they flat gave up on him....

I would argue that it is NOT always the fault of the human...that the human is not always being outsmarted by the horse, but rather that the human gets tired of going over the same old thing, and not getting anywhere...that they would have with a more cooperative horse.

Now for me...I can take all the time in the world to get a horse going. It bothers me not...there are many different things to try with a horse.
BUT...when you get a horse that you have a personality conflict with....things can get old and take forever... to always have to be changing every little thing you do..gets old. Whe you have been working with a horse that still insists on striking at you for example, after months * months of handling...yes..it gets old. I'd rather have a good disposition horse that is easier to work with.

Carol...how many horses have you trained? I'm just wondering... and how many time constraints have you been under by owners to get a horse going in "x" amount of days? How many of those owners just wanted results, and were not about to put more time or money into the horse because it did not "meet with their human goal" for it? When you knew that horse needed at least another 30 or 60 days to be truly comfortable and going well.

[Kerry W]

That is one of the reasons I harp on breeding ONLY to GOOD DISPOSITION horses period!

So, does this mean that YOU always breed to horses with a good disposition? Or do you just tell others to?

[Terry Wallace]

Yes Kerry...I breed to horses with good dispositions. I only keep stallions with good dispositions...have only had one who was not up to snuff..Bandito

AND...if this is about Bandito...because I cannot figure out WHY you keep coming at me on this BB....

Bandito got bred to ONE mare... before he was fully back to health, because I had faith in what a "two persons" told me about him... AFTER he was back to health and getting nuttier by the day... I did not breed him, nor to ANY outside mares, pulled him from my roster, and of course he left here a gelding. he sired ONE offspring.... that was all...I had Bandito two years and could have bred him many times...but the disposition was NOT there...just ask Jennifer Dressel O.K.????

Is that what you want to hear Kerry?

Just wondering>>>> Because other than Bandito..I have NO stallions without good dispositions in the past 30 years.... but then, no others were misrepresented to me either!

[LynnG]

Everyone that has firsthand experience can give their viewpoint. Hearsay is just that and doesn't make it so.

I have bred to two Hilachas sons Ejemplo que tal and Ganador del Rosa multiple times and with different mares in the past and had no behavior problems with the resulting offspring, and all gaited easily. I got to ride Garbo que tal on a visit to FL. What they are -- are versatile and do have alot of heart.

My mare Ladybug is 2x Hilachas and she resembles him alot; she's been shown regionally in Pleasure Mares, Western Pleasure and Costume, and could do Trail also. She is accepting of different enironments...we did the Sandhills, SC ad Biltmore trail ride this year. I do bridleless riding demos with her and plan another for my Open House Nov. 12. She's sure-footed agile... I'd take a few more just like her.

I saw Hilachas in person in 1980 in CO. My ex-husband trimmed Hilachas's hooves. I saw Hilachas tease (or rather ignore) a mare in heat, and did breed her. I saw not a crazy resistant horse, but a gentle noble and responsive stallion to handle.

Environment and human handling have alot to how a horse reacts.

Hilachas was top #1 sire multiple times and on top 10 quite a few times for a reason...he sure did produce some top mares... Erectora que tal, Gallopa que tal, Dierdre que tal, Dahae que tal. They achieved, they excelled at gaiting, they had heart, and they could fino as well as largo.

My old favorite cross in lines was the Mahoma-Hilahas-Resorte III cross.

[CarolU]

I don't know how many horses I've trained, when I was younger quite a few, then only my own for many years, and I've been training for myself and others for the past 6 years, and yes, only enough to keep life interesting. I've trained ponies, Arabs, QH's, Paints, a lot of grade horses and even a draft cross.

I don't equate a bad disposition with intelligence at all. The worst disposition I've ever seen is an Appy that hates everybody and everything, including every other horse. But the horse does not try to open gates or untie knots, two things that to me demonstrate a certain level of intelligence.

And while I agree that some horses are a little too smart for their own good, like a horse that thinks is so smart and can't be caught in a pasture, so it has to live in a paddock or stall. Not really all that bright.

But I find almost every problem that I see with a horse is a problem with the rider or owner. The horse dances on top of the person because the person doesn't insist on their own space, the horse takes off once you're in the saddle because the owner lets it. You know the list, and it goes on and on. An intelligent horse will learn quickly what it can get away with...like taking the bit in their mouth and going where they want. A not-to-bright rider will hold steady pressure and go wherever the horse takes it. A smart rider will relax then pop the bit and get the horse to pay attention again.

Intelligence is why I'd own Pasos over any other breed, anyway, even if they were a trotting breed. That spark of interest they have is a lot easier to develop then some dead-head horse that is too dumb to notice you're asking it to do something.

I find training the owner actually pays off faster then trianing the horse, because a smart horse will revert right back to bad behavior when they're returned to the owner if you don't.

[Terry Wallace]

I too have a Hilachas bred horse, he is THE BEST trail horse on the place, and also the only trocha-ing horse I have. I have nothing against Hilachas.
our gelding is a great test horse for trocha! Do I blame Hilachas...nope. Could be many other factors.... Thats kind of like blaming "Resorte blood" for horses acting "too hot"...

Would I have ever bred to Hilachas....not likely, but it was because he was so small... if he was also not good in the disposition department.... it would have been a turn off too. I cannot say if he was or wasn't...I never knew him. Only read & heard about him. I have several articles I have collected on him (PFOBA papers).

[Kerry W]

Actually Terry...I don't keep coming after you on this BB...you're the one who keeps trying to bring it up. I was actually more interested in the Triquena line, but I'll use the (reliable) info I already have on her. Thanks anyway! ;-)

[CarolU]

Well, every horse I have here, except Baby and Bruiser, is Hilaches, some 2 and 3 times. Some gait very well, some don't.

I am with Lynn, I love Hilaches in a horse, and throw in Mahoma and Ladrillo...and you have my heart fully satisfied.

Now...the lines I prefer to train and selll for general trail horses are Coral and El Pastor....not because of gait, but because they seem to be easier for the average horsperson to not be outsmarted by.

[Terry Wallace]

Well, thats news to me Kerry...and sure not how it appears.

Just remember this... it was not I who filed...

Have no idea why you would be interested in Triquena. She was inspected by Rosalee McWilliams to get her PFHA number. She Triquena, is of course long since deceased.
Just in case you are inferring I had said something dishonest about Triquena.
Not sure where you are going with that comment.
Not really sure what the problem is... or why you feel driven to question me so.

[appyday]

I dont know alot about Pasos as you know..but I do know horses. I have had one double bred Hilachas mare and just sold her...she is a WONDERFUL trail horse. She stands and kicks the air while eatting hay/grain..she pins her ears at people but makes no more advances ..Maybe thats just to me as I beat her tailfeathers with the pitch fork the first time she did it to me..She makes "ugly" faces all the time. She is pushy and will take advantage of you. I bet I get her back next year cheaper then I sold her..Dont get me wrong she is a nice horse in the right hands..she was bought by a first time horse owner..so we will see..Oh she cow kicked when you tried to get on her...he he she did that to me ONE time..I kicked her 10 X harder then she would have ever kicked me...that ended right there..but with new people she would still try it. I could walk over and she was good as gold for me to get on.

As for disposition I find that almost as important as conformation. I love Vences dispostition and willing attitude..If he was an 850 lb rattle snake who would want to breed to him..NOT ME...

[Kerry W]

Not trying to infer a thing, Terry....just verifying information that I have about certain bloodlines. We are allowed to do that here, no? Ask questions....draw our own conclusions? Or are we required to follow the few who make the most posts, blindly?

BTW...did you ever find out if Pincel Rey was born here? I called and asked three separate individuals who were involved with the breed at the time of importation. They all said he was an import. Any luck with the PR registry?

[Terry Wallace]

So, does this mean that YOU always breed to horses with a good disposition? Or do you just tell others to?

That statement is not a shot at me Kerry? Yeah...right.

I got no response from the PPR registry...I got responses from others who are PPR registry members that said he (Pincel Rey) was not on record...only his sire, Pincel... which would suggest he was born in the USA and not in PR... but who can say for sure? Whoever bred him I would think...

That lead fizzled out for me.

Sorry about this thread hijack folks... I didn't mean for it to happen.
I cannot just sit here and not respond to personal digs from a person who evidently cannot take the truth on a totally different matter. I'm sick of being singled out like this.

[Candice Burger]

Interesting comments about Hilachas. Personally, I don't like the line because of the gait and style "in general" that I've seen. HOWEVER, I have also met, ridden, and worked some direct line Hilachas horses that were VERY well gaited and noble in temperament/disposition. Sons or grandsons of. So, like any line it really is a crap shoot about what is inherited and from whom. Iron out the gait, keep the brains, add some forgiveness, and there's a horse for a lifetime.

Dave Jones' tastes tended towards horses that worked and were a horsemen's horse. He tended to want a horse that could think on equal terms. These type of horses will not submit and that is where the training approach has to be done more on an intellectual level. That takes more time and effort on the trainer. You can't lose your temper and expect force to remedy resistance from that type of horse.

Overall I do agree with what Terry is saying. Horses for the general ridership should have even and forgiving temperments. An incidental slap timed wrong or used wrong should not be the end of the relationship with a horse, but with Hilachas it can be. A trainer under constraints simply can't work these horses. And the next rider will have to be "trained" to know how to handle them. Sometimes the "feel" of the partnership isn't simply passed on to the next rider just because they happen to hold the reins. Not that they turn into broncos or runaways but they aren't 100% with you either.

For me I greatly admire and respect the Hilachas line for what they are and for the ability to see their characteristics for many generations. And even though I don't like nor target the Hilachas lines because of my own personal tastes, I hope I can still see the "Hilachas" for a few more generations anyway.

[Terry Wallace]

So Candice.... how were the PFHA foundation stallions chosen?
Anybody know? What was the criteria?

[Candice Burger]

What LynnG said about the mares. I have also ridden some of the best mares EVER from the Hilachas line.

Erectora que tal still stands out as one of the best I have ever seen for a paso mare. Velada was a fantastic broodmare; a gold mine. Dierdre que tal is another.

When talking POWER now Hilachas had it.

Of course I've heard the same about Eblis, which I adore and about Sin Verguenza, which the mares I've seen were of interest to me for the same reasons. Powerful, gait, stamina and sophisticated. I'll never forget seeing the first Sin Verquenza mare and am still trying to learn more about that line today.

Everytime I blindly like or dislike a bloodline, some horse comes along and bunks my opinion...happens allot.

[SandyMM]

Hilaches was very intelligent, as are his offspring. People who are easily outsmarted by smart horses, tend to dislike Hilaches.
First, I don't think _all_ Hilachas offspring are particularly intelligent. I do find a lot of people making a _lot_ of excuses for why they are often so difficult or take so long to train. And that translates to not a great ride unless you have an experienced rider/trainer. How many 'experts' are there compared to the number of owner/rider/exhibitor/competitors who just want a cooperative, well-trained horse? Sure, I don't want a deadhead where someone else with less experience might love that deadhead - but I said 'too smart' for its own good and the majority of the owners who have to deal with a horse like that on a daily basis. What you call 'smart' others call difficult and a waste of time. If _you_ have months or years to fine tune a horse like that - great. But don't assume that everyone who doesn't love a Hilachas horse is too stupid to 'appreciate' that disposition.

Here is a question I am wondering about.
How did the foundation sires of PFHA get picked to be foundation sires?
Were they picked by "measuring up"? Were they picked by show records alone? Were they picked by people in charge of PFHA at the time? I know an association HAS to start somewhere... but just how did the PFHA foundation sires come to be?
Basically, the people who started PFOBA were looking to market Paso Finos away from the latin influence and the stallions who were 'chosen' as foundation horses belonged to them. There are several foundation bloodlines I wouldn't make my first choice and 'unknown' (to newcomers) bloodlines that I wouldn't be without.
A smart horse is a little more challenging to train because you have to keep their interest or they get bored. But I find them very easy to train
Depends on what a horse is being trained to do... If a horse is always 'bored', the training isn't effective.
not that the horse is too smart for its rider, but that maybe the rider is too dumb for that particular horse.
You have to be pretty dumb to let a horse outsmart you...
Who do you train for? If a person _needs_ a trainer, it doesn't mean they're 'dumb' - just not as advanced as the 'experts'. Everybody is somewhere on the learning curve. And some people just want to enjoy riding their horse - not get into an intellectual session with every contact.

[SandyMM]

Coral and El Pastor....not because of gait, but because they seem to be easier for the average horsperson to not be outsmarted by.
I don't call that not being outsmarted by the average horseman... I call that so well bred that they inherently take care of whatever level rider they are carrying - something a 'selfish' horse can not do.

According to some, only smart riders can appreciate Hilachas-bred horses, whereas some other bloodlines are only fit for average aka dumber riders....

You know, I guess it's the finesse factor that I appreciate in the bloodlines I prefer - knowing that your horse is smart enough to know what he needs to be for each person who gets on his or her back. That type of horse is never bored or boring...

[CarolU]

Yep...like fine wine, they are not for everyone. :D

[Candice Burger]

I don't think it's smart vs. dumb. That's a bad way of describing a horse that takes allot of time and thinking to get them saddle ready. Some people like the challenge and enjoy the response from those type of horses--let's face it, it is different. For some it's rewarding and for others it's a worthless venture when there are many other lines that are more amendable. All depends on the style of the person.

That's like trying to explain why riding a paso fino is so much more attractive than some other breed. Until you ride one or be around the breed, you don't really understand. That's Hilachas. Some folks have come and gone from this breed, but for me, I cannot imagine riding any other horse. Horses like Hilachas and others bring out the same sentiments. They aren't smart-'er' or bet-'ter' just different requiring different methods. Either you like that or you don't.

[AliceG]

Terry,
The article isn't available on line. And the web site doesn't say where you can buy the mag.---my sister subscribes to it. Here is an email for them: editor@trailridermagazine.com

[CarolU]

Very well said Candice, and that is it in a nutshell. For my personal horse I prefer these lines. They are interesting and frequently challenging to train. They grow you as a trainer. I particularly like developing a relationship with this kind of horse.

But I realize they are not for the average owner who does not understand these sensitive animals. That is why I prefer to train other lines for trail horses that I sell, and I recommend those lines for new buyers and first-timers.

It is all a mater of preferences...no need to be offended, different strokes for different folks.

[Candice Burger]

It was political.

No real criteria was set that I'm aware of.

Afterall, Mahoma had already produced a champion in COL and Guala was the mother of Resorte III. Nothing on these two and what of Maria Luisa, Toledo, and other good PPRs of the day. No, there was absolutely no thought behind any of the "picks" of the day. It was purely commercial interest as far as I'm concerned.

When the push was to have Capuchino inducted as a "foundation" sire is when PFHA started the Hall of Fame.

I don't see any horse imported and within less than one generation as a foundation anything. Foundation of what? Breed registries for pasos already existed long before any horses were imported to the USA and champions already reigned in the show rings.

[Kerry W]

It was a question, or rather two questions...see the question marks? Just asking, as info I have does not correspond with info you have...that's all.

Pincel was never in the US, unless I am mistaken about that. From what I gather, Pincel was to be imported, but died before it actually came about.

[Terry Wallace]

No records on the dam "Boca Chica" either...
Yes, far as I know...Pincel was not imported, never left PR.

As to your "questions"
I just calls it as I sees it Kerry... so stop back peddling o.k.??????
It is what it is.

Now lets proceed......

Thanks Alice....

Candice...what you have stated is what I always thought.....about the foundation sires.
It was mostly political, the powers that "were" picked who they owned & liked...

As I said, an association has to start somewhere. I wish this one wasn't so darn "secretive"....

;-)

[Kerry W]

I just calls it as I sees it Kerry...

See, we do have something in common! :lol:

Federacion was not in the habit of registering pintos...but it was not the only association that was allowed into our registry.

[pnalley]

Time for my comments about Hilaches.

For the better part of the time he was owned by the Shougers I was at the same barn. So I saw him EVERY day. He was a beautiful animal.

He was not fond of people. Most likely because he wasn't raised around "respectful" people. He would rather stand at the back of his stall then come interact.

He was certainly broke to ride, and I saw Pat F. ride him more then once. I hope she pipes up on this.

It has been MANY years ago, but I remember nothing bad about his gait. What I do remember is back then MANY Paso's had heads that were at best "common" or unrefined. He changed all that.

I know you don't ride the head, however everyone LOVES a pretty horse, and Hilaches ALWAYS passed that lovely head on the his get.

In the early '70's he was producing winners. So he was used and desired as a breeding stallion.

I was also around MANY of his get, from birth 'till well past the "green" years under saddle. None stand out in my mind as being difficult. All were lovely animals. Some leaned towards being trotty, but all that I rode could be collected into a proper gait.

That particular "proper" gait is certainly not what would win in the show ring today, but then everything about the Paso "show" horse has changed drastically over the past 30+ years.

Keep in mind, you can like or not like his bloodlines all you want. By the time he is 3rd or 4th generation the bloodline is so diluted you need to find something else to either blame the horses attitude on, or credit the horses intelligence to.

Time to move on. In his day he was a rare horse that "stamped his get" in a positive manner.

[motorgypsy]

WOW Thanks Paula. It's so great to have someone on here that was actually around a horse we hear so much about but really don't know personally. Where has PatF been lately anyway. She used to come on every now and then quite regularly???

Since you saw Hilachas does this mare in any way resemble him? She has him in her background several times. She is a prima donna but a fabulous mare with a speed largo to die for.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/IMG_0489_1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/IMG_1431a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/IMG_0486_1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/BRANDY6.jpg

[Kerry W]

I think it imortant to define your own experience with any line. Mine with Hilachas, is one that has been very positive. I heard over and over, that "newbies" don't do too well with them. All that went out the window, when I got Aggie...linebred Hilachas...and the sweetest horse I've ever known, and she's got gait! :D

[pnalley]

Motergypsies
It is hard to tell from the photo's you posted. The bright bay color seems the same. I can tell nothing about your horses head. I'll try to dig through my old photos to see if I have any of him, I don't think I do.

Hilaches had one of the prettiest heads I have seen on ANY horse. Very wide at the eyes, large intelligent eyes (not soft eyes though). Small ears, arrow shaped head, down to a very refined muzzle, Large refined nostrils (for drinking the wind as the Arab folks would say), tight lips. His neck tied into his head fairly neatly (compared to most Paso's that are extremely thick through the throatlatch). I do remember him being a bit long backed, but that trait was rairly passed on.

Back in the 70's there were two horses that "stamped their get" with their head. Hilaches and Cruzario Negro. Hilaches alway put a pretty head on his babies. Cruzario always put a "common" head on his. But all of Cruzarios get would GAIT!!!

[Linda Y]

Back in the '70's I had a chance to purchase Hilaches and a small band of mares...4 if I remember right. I won't tell you the price, but it was cheap. But for me back then it was a fortune!
Anyway, they took Hilaches out of the stall and led him down the aisle. I never saw him move out of gait. He was extremely beautiful. Not a big horse. Gorgeous head carried high on a nice stallion neck. Fine legs. Little ears. I wish I had had a camera.

[LynnG]

2x Hilachas bloodline ....

My mare Novia Dulce "Sweetheart" or aka Ladybug

conformation Hilachas type

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/images/novia/noviaSide10_04web.jpg

Disposition

Bridleless

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/images/novia/bridleless/cropped/BugBridlelessCorto_web.jpg

Trail sense

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/images/novia/7_27_06BugLynTrailRide_1.jpg http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/images/novia/buglynCreekRide4_17_05_web.jpg

Cow sense

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/images/novia/buglynCows4.jpg

Versatility... yes!

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/images/novia/bugNCSF_05WP_5web.jpg http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/images/novia/bugNCSF_05WP_4web.jpg

Fun.... yes!

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/images/novia/biltmore8_26_06_17.jpg

[Barbwire]

The head and neck on that mare are so feminine, I just adore her. :D

[blinky]

Question...is this article available to read on-line? Do any big book stores sell the Trail Rider magazine? Where can I get the article.

What are the unflattering things said and who authored the article?

I'd like to read it.

Terry - The article says (Hilachas, In 1968, he was selected by an American as the best stallion available to be imported to the U.S. from Columbia. His offspring had the finest gait and conformation in his home country, one renowned for its Paso Finos. In America, the stallion;s new owner discovered he was very temperamental and almost impossible to ride: from then on, Hilachas was used exclusively for breeding.) The author is Jule Drown and she writes the bi-monthly article Cactus Country. I was told by someone that Hilachas was very smart and knew about 100 words/commands. My Hilachas gelding (both sides) is very smart and gets into everything.

[pnalley]

That is the Hilaches head.

You could always tell a Hilaches baby from 1/2 a mile away.

Pat and Margeret had a mare named Dichosa (I think) black or dark brown, that had the prettiest head of all his babies from what I remember.

[LynnG]

Thanks Barb! I adore her, and she does have a gorgeous head. I have other Paso folks just look at her at the fair and on rides when they see her ..... trying to figure her out bloodline wise. And then they ask what's her breeding.

When I walk out in the morning, she will be the one who whinnies to me. I have a few others...but she does it the most when she sees me. She will also stand nearby when I'm doing a yard project and just stand and watch me. We are gearing up for our bridleless demo next weekend at my farm open house.

I'm glad I found her 2 years ago, even when I didn't need another horse and was helping look with someone else. ya just never know....

[motorgypsy]

Lynn she is soooo gorgeous!! Amazing!!!!

Our Brandy

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/brandyheadshot-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/brandyshowa-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/snowbrandychinookb.jpg

And her son Brilliant

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/CRW_1663a.jpg

[ErinC]

I just got in and have not seen all of this tread yet but I just had a great great trail ride on my 3x hilaches horse.
He is one that I can put kids on, beg. on and more experianced ones on. and he is awesome.
I do agreee with this.
Hilachas horses don't like to be treated badly, they are intolerant. And many tended to be diagonal and trocha. If that makes a bad trail horse, they better start putting down some QHs!!!

Hilachas also had allot of heart, stamina, sound conformation and legs. If that makes a great trail horse then everyone should have Hilachas!

this is my 3 x halicas with my 15 yr old daughter on him, at the age of 5 ( and he was not started at 2 )
I would not trade him for the world.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/77608Swimming_Pasos_at_Myles_Standish_015-med.jpg


YOU DO NOT RIDE PAPERS
but here are mine :lol:
just to show the 3 x Haliches if you click on my WWW ( down there)
you will see so many different people riding him...



http://pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=111994

[Terri]

This has been an interesting thread. And I definitely have to agree with this statement
a disposition that is not 100% willing to cooperate unless they 'feel like it'
This is my 2X Hilaches great grandson. And the key is always to make him think it was his idea and he is having fun.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/micomyhorse/Tinan3.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/micomyhorse/HowManyCanWashAHorse2.jpg
You think he is having fun yet? Don;t underestimate him, there are days on the trails you are hoping to come back alive and other days you wonder if he needs a nap.
I also agree with the statement that the El Pastor and the Coral horses make great trail horses. My Rio is El Pastor's grandson and is the most honest and willing and consistent horse undersaddle I have ever know. I never have to wonder if I am coming back alive or if I have to wake him up, unlike Mico he is always the same.

He and Mico are night and day. Both are great trail horses in different ways and you have to know how to treat each of them to get the best. Just like people, their personalities are significately shaped by genetics, but that personality can usually be channeled correctly to maximize the good by a trainer/teacher that pays attention to how the horse best learns.

[Hacienda Del Sol]

This thread raises an interesting question: are some bloodlines more difficult than others? I've trained horses from Hilaches, Mar de Plata, Resorte IV, Patrimonio del Ocho, Petrolero, LaCe, Majestuoso, etc. and I don't know if I can honestly say that one has been so much more difficult than another--alhough one Majestuoso mare I trained was sure a pain in my butt. I think the key is here that these different lines have different personality characteristics, but those characteristics are affected by the environment, as Lynn stated, that the horse is in. This encompasses all the treatment, from feed to shoeing to training. I'd say that Patrimonio horses tend to be sensitive although some translate that to difficult. I have found Petrolero horses, the two that I have worked with, to be a bit nervous and touchy, although they had similar (pushed very hard) training. Hilaches horses can get very angry if pushed, but I'm not so sure I can say that as a generalization, since I've only worked maybe 20 or so. I would think I'd need a much larger sample to really know, and of course all the other variables (like if I'm feeling crappy that day) are going to affect my opinion as well. I do not think it's fair to attack any specific line with broad sweeps.

[Jasfino]

Here's my Hilachas gr.grandson Not sure why the pic turned out with those spots ?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y175/Jasfino/farm%20pics/expertpics2038primero.jpg


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y175/Jasfino/expertpics006cropprimero.jpg

and this is his dam Dama.. a Hilachas granddaughter..

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y175/Jasfino/69ec7ee8.jpg

They both have alot of get up and go... :D[/img]

[ErinC]

how correct
I do not think it's fair to attack any specific line with broad sweeps.

I have seen the line I love the most have a few bad eggs.
I think all lines have the good/the bad/ and the mix....

and dont forget about them MOM-MAMs they have something to throw into the mix that counts for attitude. it is not always the sir.
maybe the "bad " Hilaches off springs all came from simer bottom lines ?
just a thought.

would be interesting to study up on, expecialy before bad mouthing the sir.

[CarolU]

Erin, you have a very good point about inheritance. I do think though your study would be flawed for the very reason you site. I find many will attribute the good qualities they find in get to the sire or dam's line, but we're always 'hush, hush' about bad qualities. And there is a good reason, since it is against PFHA rules to say negative things about specific horses. This makes it pretty hard to do any kind of study on bad characteristics.

Studies they have done with human identical twins seperated at birth show that 80% of personality is inherited. There is no reason to believe it is not similar in other species.

[AliceG]

I'm going to try to get the magazine next week (my sister lives about 45 minutes away). I think the point of the article was the author's horse was a nervous and difficult trail horse and she blamed it on Hilachas.

I also have a Hilachas gelding, El Jerarca Ltd. He is 22 now and still gorgeous IMHO. This is a shot 2 yrs ago of him toting a non-rider thru a river on a trail ride with 200+ other horses. Yeah, he can be a goober and he has some silly issues, but I understand him (I've had him since forever) and he is a great trail horse, altho mostly retired now.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/pasoblonde/ameliaride.jpg

[appyday]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/pasoblonde/ameliaride.jpg

This looks like one horse..two saddles and two riders.. :lol:

[Terri]

This looks like one horse..two saddles and two riders.

Didn't know they mixed Hilaches with Daucshounds. Did that improve the disposition?

[Abejita]

My Hilachas Gr Grandaughter (my avatar) is the mare I once posted that if I could have her sound to ride again until she died..I would be willing to never own another horse. BUT she is kind of a 'one person horse' according to some ..I always had to be there when things were done to her ..if Steve held her she would be nervous (and no he never hit her ...BUt he also has a different vibe than me to be sure..) and she can be a major witch to other horses and looks grumpy 3/4 of the time..but on the trail she listened and did pretty much anything I asked her too..I didnt have enough time to get her to Trail Queen LOL ..Her gait ..well she didnt have a good RANGE of gait but I also do not know how much of that can be chalked up to her sweeny.She is one tough little horse and fits a lot of the things that have been said here but I wouldnt trade her...

[Abejita]

oh yea the spots are probably just bugs caught in the flash of the camera.Small gnats...No your horse is not a hotbed of paranormal activity ;-)

[Jasfino]

No Abejita.. not paranormal at all. I thought it was his "psychic energy" his Hilachas "brio" that I caught there in that pic... 8-)

[AliceG]

This looks like one horse..two saddles and two riders..

You mean your horse can't carry two saddles & two riders???? Actually I tried to cut my fluffy self & horse out of the photo, but it interfered with the shot of my Hilachas horse.

here is another shot of him on the trail, being real nice to someone who rides once a year!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/pasoblonde/rockotrail.jpg

[LynnG]

Alice, he is handsome.... what is his breeding?

[ErinC]

Hilachas?
:roll:

( Just kidden)
I could not wait so here I found:


http://pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=77651



I just came in from intense 1 hr schooling with mine, he never blew or got upset,,,OK,,, maybe a tail swish here and there when He had no idea what I wanted him to do.

[AliceG]

yep, that's him - old guy with lots of 'old' stock in bloodlines, Hilachas, El Pastor, Mar de Plata. ...

[Mellifluous]

Ok, gotta weigh in on this one.

First of all, I think the whole generalization about a bloodline is much like making a generalization about the breed. We all know that Paso Finos are crazy little horses that aren't good for anything but going in a circle while taking little bitty mincing steps.

Here is my Hilachas horse testimony:

As some of you know, Phoebe has Hilachas in her background. She has been under saddle for less than a year. She spent 3 months at Cowboy Ed's for training. I told him to take as long as he needed to turn her into a safe riding horse for me. Boy did I end up with a heck of a horse.

My first ride on Phoebe was after she had been at Ed's for a little over 2 months. We went through the woods, confronted cows, crossed streams without hestitation and went through a pond. She never hesitated or gave any trouble.

I got Phoebe home, took her on her first trailride - picture perfect. Most of the time she and I go riding by ourselves. She has never given me a lick of trouble on the trail. Over the summer I was riding her 3 or more times a week and she has never ever given me a problem. Often times, I will drop the reins and let Phoebe go at her own pace while I take in the scenery on the trail.

I took her in her first parade last spring. I think that she had been home for a month. It was her first time wearing a big dress and going out in a strange and noisy place. You would think she had done it a million times. Perfect and calm.

We have gone to lots of open shows. We usually ribbon and she always does what I ask of her. At our last show she won 3 blues and beat out walking horses in the "gaited go as you please" class. She is smooth and consistent and I always get comments on her smoothness when we are out. I hear an even 1-2-3-4 when we are on hard surfaces and you don't see me bouncing like I am riding a jackhammer.

We have also done a bit of team penning, we are still working on getting good at that. She still does what I ask, we just aren't terribly fast. ;-)

I could not ask for a better horse. I am very very pleased with Phoebe. She is an all around go anywhere and do anything horse. She is intelligent, feminine and has tons of heart. I can relax and enjoy myself when I ride her. She and I are partners. She will do what I ask of her and do it with style and class. I am lucky to have found such a great horse and a great trainer.


So, as far as I am concerned all of you Hilachas naysayers can go fly a kite. I know what I have and I know what is out there. I try to look at horses as individuals - yes, you can say that some bloodlines are known for producing this or that but in the end you have to look at the actual horse in front of you. I would take my Hilachas mare over any "trail/pleasure bloodline" paso any day. In my mind, Phoebe is the ultimate trail and pleasure horse. For someone to turn against a horse like her because of a name on her papers is ridiculous.

Our first trail ride after she came home.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/legado/Phoebe_Woods.jpg

Here she is posing for Kevin.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/legado/Mel_Phoebe_side.jpg

Our first show at Midway.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/legado/1_Phoebeshowb.jpg

Our first parade.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/legado/1_parade.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/legado/1_parade_brad.jpg

Here she is after the parade with my dad - who is disabled but loves horses. A real firebreather, huh?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/legado/1_parade_jim.jpg

A more recent show.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/legado/bfunshow8.jpg

Her biggest fan.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/legado/bfunshow12.jpg

[motorgypsy]

AliceG's guy is a rare strain from Hilachas called the "Stretchilachas" - six legs for two saddles and two riders!! Amazing horses those Hilachas babes!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[CarolU]

I agree with you Mel. Rosie is double Hilaches, and you saw her pictures after one summer under saddle...standing for a slicker, crossing bridges and water crossings, wearing a grass skirt and pumpkins.

I will tell you she can get firey hot and could be one hot little show number if I wanted or pushed that way. I don't and won't.

I consider myself thoroughly spoiled by responsive and intelligent horses. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[darcy]

My mare is also many times over a Hilachas girl and most closely a granddaughter..... Alice, your gelding is like my mare's cousin, El Vicario and my mare's dam, Dea Valida Ltd are full siblings, but my Mia gets another helping of Hilachas from her sire as well.

And what do I have to say about the Hilachas line..... I can only speak from my experience with three mares, the only lazy/difficult one I've dealt with was the one with the least Hilachas blood in her.... Mia and her mother are super solid girls. Mia was not broke to ride until she was 14, and the women who started her was very nervous about what she was going to get when she climbed aboard. She tells me that she never really had to train Mia to do anything, it was like she already knew what to do. Mia is highly intelligent and shows her emotions plainly but still does everything that is asked of her. She also the most curious horse I have ever owned and I truly believe that she does enjoy my company which is just so rewarding.

I can't speak to their quality of gait cause I haven't ridden enough different pasos to be able to compare

[Candice Burger]

Tad touchy aren't we?

Now I'm just curious. Is it because Hilachas populated most of the southeast and then west with his son, Ejemplo in the northeast? Is it because everyone owns a Hilachas horse somewhat removed or is it because they know the qualities by which they speak is from Hilachas and not just on paper?

And before everyone makes a voodoo effigy out of me, just reread previous posts.

I'm wondering why is it that everytime someone starts talking about a certain horse or bloodline that the owners of such bloodlines feel the need to respond two-fold. What's it based on? Owning the horses? Observation of a large sampling?

I mean read this thread for goodness sakes. I could open up a fortune cookie and it'd read the same. The same generalizations are made all the time with every single bloodline around. When someone even attempts to get to specifics, the panties get bundled up or someone forgets to take their EZ pills.

Heck I talk to various people all the time about horses I like/dislike and they give me varying opinions. Boy, I heard a real negative comment just last week about a stallion I like allot (still do and have a booking to him). Now I don't agree, but the comments made were pretty accurate about the horse's overall production. It hasn't slowed me down one bit because I interpret the results differently. I've already recognized not to have high expectations over the resulting cross (for competitive fino), but then that's not why I'm breeding to him to begin with. So, one fellow's opinion about the same trait can be used for different results by another. Amazingly, the same horse came up in an independent conversation with another person who sees the horse's production ability the same as I do. Again, the expectations match the first fellow's negative comments.

Isn't that what the real disagreement should be about? Allot assessments can be fairly representative of what the horse is. It's a matter if that is a "good" or "bad" thing depending on your own needs and likes.

If I shut my eyes and ears to all the "bad" comments made about a horse how am I to have confidence in my decisions? I need these comments to sober me up and take a reality check. It's one of the mysticisms of horse ownership. I remember when I was told not to breed to a certain line because the horses could be difficult at times. And this to a mare that I KNEW was difficult. The result was a stallion I love allot and I believe in his daughters too. But I still think about that advice and can say that I understand why the statement was made--lest I forget one day and wonder why I have some of the most obstinate horses known to man. I remember that too much of a good thing CAN be bad!

[pnalley]

I stand by what I said earlier:

Keep in mind, you can like or not like his bloodlines all you want. By the time he is 3rd or 4th generation the bloodline is so diluted you need to find something else to either blame the horses attitude on, or credit the horses intelligence to.

[ErinC]

DItto
I stand by what I said earlier:

Keep in mind, you can like or not like his bloodlines all you want. By the time he is 3rd or 4th generation the bloodline is so diluted you need to find something else to either blame the horses attitude on, or credit the horses intelligence to.


Candice , my take on the way people responded was== they just want to defened the horse they love, and they hate to see it bashed because of its lines. and one persons comments.

the tread started as a Question about the lines, so everyone came on to tell what they have experianced.


I said it once and I will say it again, ALL lines have good and bad off spring.
How you raise it, train it, and treat it makes the horse !!!!!!!

[Terry Wallace]

You know folks.... the question maybe should be...WHERE is Hilachas in the pedigree of your "Hilachas" bred horse...because if it is back very far....it has little or no bearing on the horse that stands before you today....

What Paula said is very true.

I sometimes hear people say.."I like Guamani lines"...my horse is Guamani bred..... at which time I have to ask...how old is your horse, and where is Guamani in the pedigree.... so far back its "beyond" ???

[Mellifluous]

OK, here is one of Phoebe's sibling's pedigree - she is not in the database or else I would post her.

What degree of Hilachas would you say she is? Is there enough there to matter, or to make my argument for Hilachas valid? BTW-This reminds me of the 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon game.

http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=93941


One other thing. I think that many "Hilachas" horses or ones that would be considered such and are not ancient would have Hilaches around 3 generations back. So, would that make it pretty pointless? Why, then did someone feel the need to write the article that started this thread?

[Candice Burger]

Well Erin, we all have "good" experiences with the lines we own or we wouldn't own them! Kinda of circular, if you know what I mean.

I understand sharing personal experiences, which is why I asked. It seems to get too personal sometimes. These experiences certainly provide good food for thougt as long as the emotions of ownership don't get too involved.

Everytime something "negative" comes up someone invariably starts hinting at slander clauses. There is nothing slanderous talking about observations of a line like Hilachas known for intolerance, some temper, diagonal tendences, and a pounding gait to jar your teeth out and also has a rep for being "cold jawed" for many years. Maybe that was the author's experience with Hilachas horses.

None of us have ever said specifically that a particular horse is a piece of crap. Now that's slanderous. I've yet to see a paso fino that was a truly out and out bred to be bad horse. May not like the horse but that doesn't make him "bad".

That's not ALL Hilachas, but must that caveat be constantly reiterated for the weak at heart? General statements are based on general observations where there appears to be a "pattern". All horsemen know what this "pattern" is. That there's enough horses out there with ancestry leading to an individual to "suggest" these traits have a common denominator, meaning that particular individual.

And as already pointed out, the further from the individual the more dilute the trait may be until there is no such resemblence at all. But if a horse has some of these traits with a slew of ancestors that don't suggest it, well the easy culprit is the one that does. Only years of study and observation might determine otherwise. For instance, I'm seeing the influence of some stallions/mares to the 3rd generation. And I also see new patterns appear when the influential individuals are crossed out or "nicked". Someone could take all the 'bad' of Hilachas and with the right crosses come out looking pretty sweet.

Most of us oldtimers wonder what the heck do people expect? People claim they want to learn about the bloodlines they carry but as soon as somebody who knows says something that is counter to their beliefs, up with the defenses and a word punching match begins all because of invested emotional ownership.

If we love this breed, we love all of it, not just the parts that make us feel good. Again, I WANT to know the cancers and warts of a bloodline. I don't want to wake up with a bunch of foals that are kilter to my program because no one had the guts to say--gee, I've seen allot of idiots from that line--well thanks for not telling me knowing I like intelligent horses. I don't want to have to wait for someone to whisper sweet nothings in my ear 10 years later after the fact.

Some venture into forums unprepared to deal in the messy "realities" of bloodlines and breeding, thinking they might have a "monster" at home because of a remark. Well to those folks, I say take what's said with a grain of salt. Your "reality" is parked in your pasture at home not on some forum. Newbies should be learning about care and management. Riding and playing with their pasos and learning about paso fino traits not some intellectual debate about whether Hilachas is a demon or not. Once "paso fino" is learned and you decide what you like/dislike then form your own opinion about Hilachas.

I had a debate months ago about the merits of a young mare. The owner said it was Plebeyo and I said it was Majestuoso. Then we debated the weaknesses, with him saying it was Majestuoso and me saying it was Classico. I'll bet my life's savings that we are both right and wrong equally, both of us walking away less sure of our views. I'll be looking harder at some horses and so will he. We could've just talked about how great both bloodlines were and left it at that, all warm and snug, feeling good that we "know" what we're talking about.

And things change as new information is gathered. We also discussed Monarca de Besilu and Retorno and how perceptions change as we watch another generation of horses unfold. It's these candid discussions that some try to have here. They aren't meant in a mean, malicious way. I'd take advantage of the few oldtimers that bother to stop by every once in a while. I know that I do.

[Terry Wallace]

Thanks fot that post Candice. You have mentioned many reasons that I too want to know all the good and all the bad.

If MORE breeders would volunteer more information on what they are breeding and what they have found works and what doesn't....this breed in general would not seem near so "secretive".

When I first came to this breed, going on ten years ago now... I went in search of both phenotype and genotype information from horses as far back as possible and hit wall after wall after wall, of "nothing available" or so many folks would not come forth with the truth. It was too much "This line (we breed here) is the best!! With no rhyme or reason WHY that was...and very little regard for confo & form to function.

Those that would speak up were... I'll tell you, but if you repeat it, I'll deny it....

After coming to the PF breed from 17 years of AQHA & APHA horses, where TONS of info is available..it was like a dead end for the most part. Even our own association doesn't seem motivated to educate about the different lines.... Heck, my jaw dropped in 2002, at the Top Ten stallion dinner and our own association did not even hang around to videotape the top ten sires who showed up...all theses horses in one place, at one time...maybe never happen again..and they did not even make a "preservation" type tape for future genrations??? I'm sure glad Arleen Klungle taped it!

Its things like that I do not understand about PFHA... it has taken me the better part of five years to compile photos and articles of the Paso Finos from the past that I have...and I am adding more to it all the time...
Why was this never done in the first place? its like only Don Fabio Ochoa Restrepo, Dr Jose Laracuente, and just a few others bothered to preserve the horses in photos and text. ;-)

[motorgypsy]

Well I don't know where it came from but we call our Hilachas mare our little "fireant" to give you an idea of her personality. She's feisty, sneaky, smart, defensive, but when the chips are down she's fabulous and has always been a great ride. If she's like Hilachas he was one seriously neat horse!

[darcy]

So is it okay for us to say we disagree? I can handle hearing that some felt he had his bad points, I've hear it nearly every time I talk to someone about my mare's bloodlines, though never specific allegations just these vague smears on the bloodline and not specific comments on HILACHAS' performance.....I'm not thin skinned about that fact that there may be issues within the bloodline, I am well aware that my mare is FAR from perfect. What I would like is to get actual information, I've had so many people tell me, "Well that bloodline is certainly not in fashion anymore", like horses are capri pants or something, or "those Hilachas bred horses have such difficult temperments" and they refuse to engage in any discussion of both sides of the situation, they treat me like I am stupid for even thinking of ignoring their OPINIONS and continuing to own such a beast anyhow. There also seems to be a large gap between what some paso owners are looking for in the breed. There seems to be a very elitist attitude by some that "their" paso is the best and that everything else just sucks. I've never talked to anyone who knew the actual horse, Hilachas, who ever said anything about him having a difficult temperment.... There are many horses in this world that I would never personally own and I assume that if someone else has chosen that animal, they probably have their own reasons for doing so. My favorite horses of all time are not famous show horses or examples of brilliant breeding programs they were horses like the Morgan I loved so much as a child who came from a rescue and was such a gentleman, the grade QH who we used to own who would always seek me out when turned out with the whole ranch remuda.. Okay I've rambled enough....

[CarolU]

There is another side to this and it boils down to personal taste. What one person considers a bad trait, another considers a good one. Largo people like a long stride, not good in the Fino/Performance crowd. Many people want and breed for medium to low brio because they don't like "fire between the legs"...and other people love it and die of boredom on a calm horse.

Even in the horse age thread you see it. Many people like an older horse that is dependable and trustworthy. Others like the challenge of young and learning horses.

I love the intelligence and interst of a Hilaches line horse. My husband HATES them! The untied knots, the open gates, the escapes at all hours. He is not even slightly amused.

That is why I like these lines for my personal horses...but prefer other lines for horses to train/sell to new riders and new Paso owners.

There are only a few traits that I would consider BAD...and bad nasty temperaments is one of them.

Now there are traits that I consider GOOD, that I wonder why people don't breed FOR. Zar lays all her poops in a nice pile in one corner and is very easy to clean up after. Rosie never rolls or lays in the mud. Now why don't people breed for such a nice tidy horse?

[motorgypsy]

that's a great idea Carol. Chinook also puts hers all in one spot while Brandy stirs hers and they're very small and impossible to clean up after she gets through distributing them!! Even as light as Chinook is the dirt just wipes off her hide and she never looks dirty. Neither does sultan. CLEAN and NEAT!! What a great trait!!!

[GeorgeGuns]

Just to note - I think the reason we H horse owners are belaboring the point is because we love our horses!

I guess most of you know the recent kick in the brain I got about breeding 4x Hilachas horses - Rio and the no-sale. Just for the record, the 4x is 2 up 2 down, both 3 an 4 generations back (one may be more, I'd have to check) While this may be considered dilution of the H, it seems to have come together in Rio, and in Pesquisa.

What I've seen not just in Rio and Pesquisa, but in their parents, Bri and Domingo, and traits that seem to be consistent with what I have hear/read about Hilachas are;
-Intellegence - these horses learn fast, Pasos in general learn fast, but these guys are tops. This can of course slap you in the butt.
-Demanding respect - ask don't demand, God forbid anyone try to get in a fight with one of these. LOL - Rio, when he was younger, and mostly before he was gelded, would be a nippy young man, I'd bop him on the scnozz and he'd snort and turn and walk away like "Yeh, well who needs you?" and not talk to me for days. Then after a few days he'd sneak up and put his head on my shoulder or something, begging for .... not forgiveness, but reparation of relationship.
-Language - they really want to communicate and this is a two edged sword. If you are sensative to what they are trying to tell you, they will repay 10-fold, BUT this level of communication seems to come with OPINIONS and they know they will be heard and they expect them to be catered to! I see this much more in the two males.
-Need to be convinced that you are safe to trust. I should have taken a big hint from the parents - Bri took over 2 years to start opening up and Domingo over 4. BUT, and I account this to my own fairness with my horses, they have all proven willing to cooperate

Things like sensativity, that may be something that comes with age, I sure don't see it in Rio except with me, he's a good horse to have in the herd, seems to read my mind often, and knows how to make his needs knows. But its Bri that really has the softee heart - A friend's husband who was notoriously scared of horses, sound himself sitting outside Bri's stall, telling bad horse jokes, handing him handfuls of hay, petting and just fussing over this horse that took me 2 years to open up.. Bri was in heaven. Rio may reach that point, as he ages and gets out in the world, dunno.

The H horses are the first ones to come when I show up in the pasture...

Rio and Pesquisa both wait to be "dismissed" at feeding time, or if I just show up for some attention. Definate "at your service" attitudes, even Bri is like this.

Gait - Domingo is by far the smoothest horse I have ever ridden, Bri is a close second but shorter stride. Rio .. if I can ever get him out of walk! promises to be smooth but a bit trocha, Pesquisa like her ma gaits everywhere... sometimes trotty.

And of course, the purty heads!!!
Pesquisa:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v66/Coreen/Pesquisa/TinkAv2.jpg

Rio: (don't he look like Dad?)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v66/Coreen/Rio/RiFace7.jpg

Bri:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v66/Coreen/Brillante/BriFace.jpg

And Domingo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v66/Coreen/Brillante/DomiFace.jpg

[motorgypsy]

Coreen - what a gorgeous bunch!!!

We rode our Hilachas mare today and honestly she's the hottest of our entire herd but what a FUN ride. The Hilachas is on her mom's side and mom is not hot at all so either she's a throwback or her PPR dad is the hottie!!

[GeorgeGuns]

Thank you! I think that's the first time the whole family has been posted together.

Its too late for me to go through all the posts and find who wrote this but the comment about Hilachas knowing about 100 words was part of the article on Hilachas that was in PFHW.. early this year? last year? I really enjoyed htat article, I found it candid, fair, and very interesting. It also convinced me that gelding Bri would be a big mistake, he'd never forgive me. After reading that and knowing how Bri is, I'd be a fool to think he didn't know what those daddybags are, and that they are part of his self image, and he would really miss them.. (Men, let me hear ya say Amen!) That article helped me to understand Bri better and try a little harder for him.

[CarolU]

-Language - they really want to communicate and this is a two edged sword. If you are sensative to what they are trying to tell you, they will repay 10-fold, BUT this level of communication seems to come with OPINIONS and they know they will be heard and they expect them to be catered to! I see this much more in the two males.


Coreen, that was a very observant post...and I REALLY like this part! This is Zar. Although I admit that I attribute this trait more to Eblis (and understand from Stella he was very much like this) then Hilaches. None of my other Hilaches horses are like this, but Zar TALKS, and yes, she expects you to listen and cater to her. I have been hit by flying feed bags when she didn't care for the contents and I didn't respond to her snorts and rooting protests early enough to suit her.

LOL...thanks for the memory!

And yes, ALL Those pretty heads come from Hilaches.

[LynnG]

Ha! I picked up a copy of that Trail Rider issue at the Southern Horse Festival Show earlier this month, for the sake of seeing the contents and see if this would be a good advertising magazine for PFHA. And thus came across this article...I didn't think the Hilachas referral was that big of a deal in the context of the entire article. She also says about her maternal greatgrandsire Hilachas... "In 1968, he was selected by an American as the best stallion available to be imported to the US from Colombia. His offspring had the finest gait and conformation in his home country, one reknown for its Paso Finos..... and then the other part that was stated out of context as being "negative".

The name of the horse was given as Natalie Bravo. So I looked up her predigree.... http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=96184

Now the Hilachas comes from a daughter of Ejemplo que tal, who also stood at stud in NC in the mid-late 1970's. Having known personally several daughters of Ejemplo, I found the daughters most tractable; my experience with his colts could be less so..but this relation was by a daughter. There is also Hilachas from Dulzura que tal one further generation back (great-great). Now Dulzura was a performance Res. Natl Ch (?) show mare with brio. But Dulzura was crossed on a big PR stallion Viento Siero that Rancho del Rosa in Tryon, NC owned at the time.... which resulted usually in a less hot horse for the relation here.

This lady who wrote this article you can tell is smitten with her little "trail" mare Natalie and all her progress, and wouldn't part with her for the world. She recounts her experience with her ....first noticing her where she boarded in AZ, and that she was overlooked by everyone there, and was left shut up in a little stall receiving no exercise. Now how many Paso finos do you know like to be confined in a stall without turnout? Mine like to be doing something. When stalled for bad weather or whatever, they do love to get out of there, when the weather improves! They'd get stir crazy if they didn't get turned out daily.

Ah ....so a misunderstood, neglected little Paso Fino mare with brio and get up and go... turns out to be most content (and less tense) on the trail.

To my surprise, I've begun to receive compliments from other riders about my awesome trail horse -- Natalie.
... Experienced riders who aren't put off by a horse with an abundance of energy are impressed by tiny Natalie's ability to step out, her willingness to always go, and her toughness. Rocky trails, steep trails, going shoeless, kicks from other horses -- nothing stops her.

She's always eager to go on a ride, just us two or with neighborhood friends.

I just didn't see anything that negative.... its recounting the story of a Paso fino owner and her beloved mare and the bumpy and smooth of it all from first meeting to happy trails. I enjoyed reading the article, as I have turned around a few "misunderstood" paso Finos over the years to "normal" horses.

If you want to read the entire article, go buy the magazine....its the Nov/Dec issue..so buy while still on the racks.

[Kerry W]

Thanks Lynn....especially for that pedigree. I see a couple of others there that weren't hailed for their easy going temperaments! :lol: This is a good post, and a good lesson about not attributing things to only one horse in a pedigree! The horse is a total package...including environment! ;-)

[Terry Wallace]

I have to agree Lynn... I got a copy of the magazine at a truck stop on my recent journey. I don't think it was unflattering or any kind of big deal. I much prefer honesty in an article...the article seemed honest to me. ;-)

[motorgypsy]

I guess my fear is that a "newbie" will read negative comments about a particular line and refuse to buy a wonderful paso fino based on the pedigree.

So again what I'd like to emphasize is BUY THE HORSE, NOT THE PEDIGREE.

Of course if you're breeding, the pedigree is important but the offspring of the parents and siblings of the horses you are considering breeding are more important. Our Hilachas mare is proof of that. She is extremely different from her mother other than both having the lovely head and nice butt. And if a particular line is reputed to have a certain somewhat undesirable characteristic one should certainly not double that line the the reputation is deserved.

[LynnG]

I don't think many newbies are influenced by who's in a pedigree (and many don't care), but its THE actual horse that is in front of them, AND what the horse is capable of doing. I would be more concerned about newbies buying a horse mainly due to what color it is, and not taking anything else much into consideration.

I enjoyed reading the Trail Rider article... any story about a happy ending with a Paso Fino and its owner I would like to read... its the human interest aspect, and like a "hallmark" type of story. I can actually visualize this mare's and her owners journey together, and find happiness and respect for each other in the end. I've experienced the same, so can relate.

Hurray for Natalie and Julie! That little Natalie is out winning over others encountered on trails about the Paso Fino. Great things can come in small packages!