Rare to see this color in a PPRPF stallion

[Rafael Arbelo]

Can you tell me what color is this stalion?


http://www.pasopedigree.com/Forum/uploaded/597-20061107101706.jpg

http://www.pasopedigree.com/Forum/uploaded/597-20061107103446.jpg

[Pasogirlz]

That is sure different.
I wanna see the other side. What does his mane look like?

[Heidi]

This stallion looks like a Perlino.

A Perlino is a bay (black with agouti) horse with two copies of the cream gene. He would be classified as a Double Dilute because of the two diluting cream genes. EVERY baby he sires will be either palomino (if he has a red gene, Ee, to pass to his offspring), Buckskin or Smoky Black.

Do you know the colors of his sire and dam? I am willing to bet that each is a dilute of some sort, pally, buck or smoky black.
Heidi

[Rafael Arbelo]

This one is his half brother on their sire's side...

http://www.pasopedigree.com/Forum/uploaded/597-20061107103921.jpg

[Rafael Arbelo]

I thought this one as a Perlino ...

http://www.pasopedigree.com/Forum/uploaded/597-20061103112641.jpg

http://www.pasopedigree.com/Forum/uploaded/597-20061103112702.jpg

http://www.pasopedigree.com/Forum/uploaded/597-20061103112737.jpg

http://www.pasopedigree.com/Forum/uploaded/597-20061103113429.jpg

[Heidi]

The half-bro looks like a red (chestnut) going gray or is a roan. I want to lean towards going gray, because the tail is very pale and the dark head extends into the neck/chest area and usually roans have dark heads/legs with the roan body...
Both horses look very nice, though I like the throatlatch of the half-bro better than the perlino's. Is the perlino a younger horse?

[Rafael Arbelo]

If the "Perlino" you are referring to is the last horse, he is about 7 years old. All of them are PPRPF ... We are trying to resurrect these rare colors into the mainstream of the PPRPF followers in PR ...

[Heidi]

I didn't see the 10:46 post until after I posted at 10:47.
That horse also looks like a Perlino.

Double dilutes are very pale. The Cremello (red double dilute) is a very pale goldish body color with white mane/tail. The Perlino (bay double dilute) is almost white body color with a reddish tint and slightly darker reddish tint to the mane/tail and knees/hocks. There is a black double dilute, called a Smoky Cream, but I do not know how it's looks differ from the other two.

I'd suggest checking out EquineColor.com as that is where I have learned what I know about genetics and color.
Heidi

[Heidi]

If the "Perlino" you are referring to is the last horse, he is about 7 years old. All of them are PPRPF ... We are trying to resurrect these rare colors into the mainstream of the PPRPF followers in PR ...
No, I was talking about the first posted horse. But I do think both are Perlino.

[Pasogirlz]

I thought Champagnes had dark skin....and Cremelo's had pink skin?


www.equinecolor.com

[Candice Burger]

Both horses, the half-sibs, appear to be greying out. Is the first older? --he looks more advanced with his greying.

OR there is a roan gene present. The way to tell the difference is by looking at the legs below the knees AND the head. Roans do not have white hairs mixed in their heads. Some roans have roaning in the ears and around the throatlach under the jaw, so when looking look strictly around the eyes, forehead, nose areas. Since neither are showing good, distinct coloration in the legs (one with the creme and one with the sabino), the head is your best shot.

ALSO--be careful when looking at the mane/tail hairs. The roan mare I have isn't greying but she has allot of white hairs in her mane but NO white hairs in her tail. Greys typically will begin to grey in the tail hairs near the end of the tail. By parting the hairs in the tail to the bone, most times the white hairs will show up.

AND last there is the rabicana gene that affects the tail but not the mane. Some rabicana horses have the same white hair pattern in their tails. When you part the tail hairs, you see the white hairs. Rabicana, unlike roan, doesn't go into the neck/shoulder area.

There's also the possiblility of the sabino effect with the roaning/greying look but ususally loud sabinos have very sharp, jagged splashes of white on their body somewhere and not just the roaning effect. The sabino markings don't reach the stifle area in this case and I don't see any splotches of white on the body except the legs, so my vote is the roaning appearance is caused by something else.

So, here's my vote. The first is perlino with a grey gene possibly based on the "flecking" in his body coat. The second looks like a horse that is greying based on the hairs in his mane and tail. I'd want a close up of both heads in the front that shows where the white goes

Oh, BTW. Neither could be shown in CONFEPASO because of the too much white on their noses, muzzles, and legs.

It's be nice to know who the parents are and what colors they are too.

I'm curious, what color are they registered as?

[Candice Burger]

Double creme genes can cause light skin. To know if the pink is from a blaze or double dilute, look CLOSELY at the nose!

http://www.doubledilute.com/cremecolors.htm

[Candice Burger]

One more thing, check out the link I posted under "smokey blacks" and see if this is the cinnamon color discussed in our conversations Rafael.

Also check out the smokey creams, a double dilute black horse.

If it were me, I'd DNA test for red/black, augoti, and creme.

BTW, I just went the UC Davis site and there's a new test out for a mutant dilute known as "pearl" thought to originate from the Iberian horse stock. When combined with one creme dilute, it acts like a double dilute on some horses.

http://www.horsecolor.com/dilutions/pearl/index.htm

[Candice Burger]

Some labs that DNA test for color:

http://www.petdnaservicesaz.com/Equine.html
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/service/horse/instructions.html
http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine.htm

[Candice Burger]

Some exciting news!!!! I just spoke to Rafael and here's the information he shared with me.

The mother of the light colored horse is BAY!

None of the parents are grey.

The sire, father of both horses, is dark with allot of white. He told me the color, either chestnut or bay, but I forgot in my excitement.

Well, no prize for me. :(

Are the parents really bay or smokey black and could they have the pearl gene?

[Terry Wallace]

None of the horses are perlino..they all have brown eyes..perlinos and cremellos have BLUE eyes.

Looks like chestnut sabino rabicano on the darker one and dominant white sabino on the lighter one.

The horse in front of the dozer blade is not perlino either..he has brown eyes...that would make him pale isabella palomino...or dominant white sabino...what color are the parents of that horse in front of the dozer?

[Candice Burger]

Good points. That's why I suggested that the horses get DNA'd for coat color. I keep forgetting about the eye color. However, I've seen blue eyed horses darken up as they age, so I'm still not going to say the light one with the pink muzzle isn't perlino or smokey cream. Until a closer look of the muzzle and head are taken. Hard for me to say for sure what color his eyes are.

The one labeled as "perlino" with the dark muzzle and dark eyes is probably a light palomino. If he were a loud sabino you could see the coloration differences in this one. If you look closely you can see the white markings on his leg. So, I stand corrected on this horse.

For the one in front of the dozer, we are trying to find out--this would help clear up some questions if we knew. His pedigree is posted on pasopedigree. com under the PPR forum.


Homozygous creams are cremello, perlino, or smoky cream. They have cream bodies and cream or coffee-colored points. The skin is a pinkish shade, and the eyes are blue.

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/cream.html

So correction on my statements!!! :oops: :oops:

[Terry Wallace]

Lots of sabinos have pink muzzles! No blue eyes....no perlino/cremello!
Double dilutes have blue eyes...so there!!! ;-)

PS...did you see the horse on Susan Ostertag's thread....that horse is a double dilute.. he has the blue eyes...

[Heidi]

I'd forgotten about the blue eyes! :oops:

[Candice Burger]

Yes, Terry, we are saying the same thing in different ways.

To clarify:

The first horse posted with the pink muzzle could be caused from either double dilute or sabino. Only a closer look at the head will know for sure.

His eyes could have darkened with age. Seen this allot in PR. Horses born with light colored or blue eyes that darken as they age, so until I see a closeup of his eyes, I hesitate to say he's not double dilute. We've owned PPRs born with a nice blue eye that darkened up to be indistinguishable from the brown eye.

For the "loud" sabino. I call "loud" the sabino that goes up into the haunches of a horse, on the belly with spalsh marks and the roaning "loud". The large blazes and white above the knees for a PPR horse is not what I would call unusual. On pasopedigree. com there's several horses in the PPR forum under the competition result topics that show what is considered "loud" in PR. The roaning with lots of white on the belly, over the stifles. So we're not agreeing on the symantics of what "loud" is.

For the other one called "perlino". I stand corrected. His eyes and skin tone are too dark for him to be a double dilute.

Anyway, we'll find out for sure because the owner is DNA testing him for color and might want to include the pearl gene detection too for good measure.

[Terry Wallace]

Oh..I DO agree they are sabino...one is dominant white, and the other still a sabino, no matter how you want to describe it ;-)
What you describe as "loud" I would (or the two books I work off of) describe as "extensive" white.

If a light colored horse was born with blue eyes (and I've had a couple) that later turned brown..that would make them palomino all along, and not a double dilute... ;-) That is a common thing that happens with palominos.

[Mellifluous]

Ok, asked some other folks about this one and the thought is that this guy is a maximum sabino - Look at the dark spot on his lip and the dark skin around his eyes.

[Terry Wallace]

Which one do you mean Mel?

[Linda Y]

My vote, the first one is a maximum sabino.
The second one is sabino.
Can't really tell about the third one, but it is palomino of some sort, not cremello or perlino.
Those are some really PR LOOKING horses, tho. Just look at some of Terry's old photos and compare the conformation. I am THRILLED that they are saving the old PR horses! And bringing back some of their wild colors.

[Terry Wallace]

Yep Linda...your color analysis on each horse is the same as mine.
Max sabino, Chestnut sabino & Isabella palomino, in order of posted photos.

I like the colors... but not the confo! ;-)

For confo I put them in this order....chestnut sabino, max sabino, palomino.

[Mellifluous]

Which one do you mean Mel?

The original horse in question, the first one.

[Terry Wallace]

Gottcha!

[Tami Pinell]

There was someone in the northern central US that was, and may still be, breeding "white" sabinos. They were not paso finos if I am recalling this correctly however the color was washed out to white through heavy sabino breeding. Unfortunately the White Horse Ranch is selling out but they may be able to give more information on this subject. They have recorded the breeding of "white" horses with dark eyes for many, many years.