Farrier or Pasture vs Natural trim (requested)

[GeorgeGuns]

Thank you for reply and for your explanation. Would you mind addressing the difference between the "plain" trim that a farrier would do and the "natural" trim that you and other proponents of would do? I think that is where I am having the problem, because I don't see the difference.
How are they done differently that benefits the horse and justifies the higher expense?

IF that was a good question, and one you'd like to address publicly in the Farrier forum, please let me know and I will post the question there, also...
Heidi

Yes its an excellent question. I was hoping to put some god pics on here, but my scanner has crapped out on me, so let's see how eloquent I can be,

Farrier or Pasture trim: these are common hallmarks, all or some may be present.
- walls are rasped flat or "level" all the way around
- heels are either too far forward "underlslung" because from below they look long and the farrier is afraid to remove heel, OR
- heels are tall and closer together - frog is not really touching ground at all
- heel bulbs are more above the heels than behind, soft, not being used
- Sole is often rasped along with the wall which effectually thins the sole under the coffin bone
- the angle of the wall at the toe is steeper at the upper third of the wall than below it - evidence of flaring
- whiteline is always in some state of stretch, or if tight its migrated forward with the flaring
- if there is any bevel to the wall, its minimal, and not enough to prevent chipping.
- wall is placed in too active a weightbearing role which stresses it and leads to flaring, stretched whiteline, pulls the heels forward or in toards eachother (contraction)

Natural trim: all hallmarks better be present unless its a hoof in transition or rehab
- Leveling the hoof involves relieving active pressure at the quarters - you should be able to just slip a credit card under the quarters when the hoof is not in full weight bearing.
- Heels are brought back, not "shortened" per se, to put the landing point behind the navicular bone
- Frog is on or darned near on the ground
- Frog flows into low and well calloused heel bulbs
- Sole is left totally and completely intact except to remove flaky stuff as necessary
- angle of wall at the upper third is same as the rest of the wall, or even a hair steeper if horse is kept in very rocky terrain
- Whiteline is thin and tight, can even be difficult to rasp into! (not hard, just doesn't want to cut)
- bevel is the Mustang roll - goes all the way around the hoof from the rear of each quarter right around to the other. Depending on the actual hoof conformation, this roll may go right to the whiteline, almost to the whiteline, or in cases of extreme flaring, founder, or a set up trim for "navicular" it will go past the whiteline.
- * sole is the active weightbearing structure and is well calloused in the area next to the wall from bar to bar. Wall is active weight bearing at the heels, and the rest is active during breakover.

Other things to note - this will help you judge if your farrier or trimmer is doing an adequte job:
If you draw a line through the widest part of the hoof, there should be at least 1/2 of the hoof (to the landing area of the heels) behind the line, and 1/2 or less in front of it.
The closer the frog is to an even triangle, the better, ie: isosocles doesn't do the job.
A well transitioned hoof will land heel first, a poorly trimmed hoof will land toe first unless laminitic.
A good naturally trimmed hoof rarely chips, cracks grow out alarmingly fast; pasture trimmed hooves can't seem to get it together.

NOTE: a pasture trimmed hoof with a sole that is not invaded with a hoof knife can be every bit as sound as a naturally trimmed hoof. The walls will get ratty, in effort to get out of the way, but the sole is still doing the lions share of weight bearing.
a pasture trimmed hoof can be chipless, but will be longer than necessary, as the coffin bone actually sinks towards the ground, the whole inner hoof drops and can appear "normal". In a natural hoof, you can actually feel the upper rim of the coffin bone at the coronet, whereas in a pasture trimmed hoof, if you feel along the coronet you can push in! My vet recently told me a horse had sidebone as he could feel stuff along the wall at the quarters - what he was feeling was actually well placed lateral cartilage, horse is fine.

The ongoing and huge proportion of pathologic hooves has led the majority of vets, farriers, and horseowners to believe that these little inconguencies are normal, and indeed they have become the norm, but its not natural.

Hope this answers the question.
If it looks like the hoof doesn't quite belong on the end of that leg, it probably doesn't!

[GeorgeGuns]

Elaboration:

Farrier or Pasture trim: these are common hallmarks, all or some may be present.
- walls are rasped flat or "level" all the way around. This robs the quarters of their ultimate function of expansion and contraction, will ultimately pull the heel either forward, towards eachother, or both
- heels are either too far forward "underlslung" because from below they look long and the farrier is afraid to remove heel, If you look at a hoof from teh bottom, the heels will look long because you are getting a view form below at an angle of wall at the heel, but if you look at the heel from the side its easy to see that the actual height of the heel is really not so much. When we fix the heels, we move them back a lot more than we reduce height - just 1/8 inch of heel off from height can move a heel back more than 1/2 inch OR
- heels are tall and closer together - frog is not really touching ground at all. This is often seen in horses that have a more upright hoof conformation naturally (vs more splayed) as a farrier tries to get that wall angle to match the pastern angle, which is an obsolete way of judging hoof angle. - heel bulbs are more above the heels than behind, soft, not being used
- Sole is often rasped along with the wall which effectually thins the sole under the coffin bone. A horse's weight goes down the leg, not in front of it, therefore the weight is borne on the structures below the leg, not in front of it. Ergo, the very toughest part of a natural hoof is the sole directly below the coffin bone - the sole callous. Often this is harder to try to cut than any wall. To thin the sole below the coffin bone, or anywhere that is not flaky, is robbing the horse of its natural weight bearing ability.
- the angle of the wall at the toe is steeper at the upper third of the wall than below it - evidence of flaring This is actually the best way to tell if hoof angle is good or not. Merely matching the wall to the pastern is not enough. The growth angle (upper third of wall) should match the lower 2/3 first. Once the heels are at the right place, the whole hoof will agree with the bones above it, quite miraculously and without fail.
- whiteline is always in some state of stretch, or if tight its migrated forward with the flaring. This is because there is perpetually too much toe wall infront of the breakover point, its getting stressed and stretched. True breakover in a natural hoof is just behind the tight whiteline or in some cases right at the whiteline
- if there is any bevel to the wall, its minimal, and not enough to prevent chipping. Dr Pollit proved in midrocellular studies several years ago that the hoof can and will grow faster if the wall is relieved of unnecessary pressures, ie: rolled. Strong walls rarely chip, weakened ones do.
- wall is placed in too active a weightbearing role which stresses it and leads to flaring, stretched whiteline, pulls the heels forward or in toards eachother (contraction) See above!

Every once in a while I get to see a horse that has had a pasture trim that "works" ie: no hoof distortion except some flaring, but otherwise sound and hardy. Inevitably the owner tells me later that she didn't know her horse could move like that! after merely removing the stress of too much wall in the way. Backs start swinging, legs start reaching, attempts to collect get better, horse just moves more freely because its not dealing with protecting even minimally sore feet. I have one customer whose horse quit playing up and shying on trail. WOW.

[Heidi]

Coreen, thanks for posting this! Looks like I'll be keeping my guy in spite of the price increase.
Heidi

[Abejita]

Some of what you list as a farrier or pasture trim is just a BAD trim

[Terry Wallace]

I have to agree... its sure not how I trim....

[GeorgeGuns]

Some of what you list as a farrier or pasture trim is just a BAD trim

Yep, and its amazing how many farriers do it! I dont' know how many times I've heard "my farrier left them a little long, he said, in case they chip up", and then I have to point out that its precisely why they chip up!

[Heidi]

Well, then why is there such disparacy in trims between farriers? Shouldn't they all be done the correct (natural) way? Are they all being taught improperly?
Heidi

[GeorgeGuns]

In a word, yes, they are for the most part being taught improperly, not on purpose but because "that's how its always been done".
Factor in that a farrier does not have to have a 100% score to pass their tests, that AFA requires knifing into the sole and flattening it for shoe prep, that most farriers are taught to merely add a slight bevel to the very outer edge of a wall on a (hopefully) balanced hoof. I've only seen one farrier relieve the quarters in prep for a shoe - my horses never did better shod than with that fella. But, most farriers are taught that the hoof must be quite flat to put a shoe on. Sure, this ensures frog contact, but with a thinned sole it hardly is going to benefit the hoof.

When I have to go behind a farrier school instructor and fix a horse after only two shoeings, yes it makes one wonder just what is being taught. There is a farrier in my area that can't seem to help but put a long toe on the left fronts. Another in a different county routinely has this problem with left hinds.

Believe me I'm not knocking all farriers, but the proportion of good to bad is really scarey. I just pulled shoes off a 3 year old TB race horse, and the only thing wrong with her hooves is that she was shod since she was 1 1/2 years old, so her heel walls are under developed and very thin, otherwise, I must commend that farrier for doing about the best job I'd ever seen, this filly has gorgeous hooves! Had I seen that job on a horse that had been allowed to mature the whole hoof, I would have absolutely nothing to criticize. Good farriers however are not a dime a dozen.

My best farrier was one that spent a few decades shoeing on a working ranch - no hoofie no workie, for horse or man. His "card" was an afterthought.

Some of what is taught is:
- Hooves don't grow fast enough to keep up with being barefoot. Wrong. Its been proven that the stimulation of being barefoot causes faster growth. (Dr Chris Pollit)
- cracks must be protected to grow out, even screwed shut if need be. Wrong. Relieve the wall (mustang roll) and just about any crack can grow out, might be blemished if its a deep coronet injury, but they grow out, and very quickly
- Hooves must be shod if the horse is working. Wrong. They may need protection, but does it have to be shoes? True, sometimes there just isn't any boot that can work on a particular horse, and then shoes may be necessary.
- going 8 weeks between shoeings is okay. Wrong. This is about 3 weeks too long and the damage to the white line becomes perpetual, heels get underslung, walls weaken, hoof weakens, blah blah blah. It might work for the weekend warrior, but not a horse in moderate or more work.
- the wall at the toe is wider than the rest of the hoof. Wrong. If the horse has this, you are looking at flared toes and weakened quarters and heels. Wall measurement at the growth area is uniform around the hoof, but due to the forces that the hard metal shoe insinuates on a hoof, the thickness changes dramatically as we get close to ground level. Story: when Medias lost his shoes for the last time, he blew off all the wall in his quarters to the point that he had literally nothing to nail another shoe onto. The wall there, which was above the sole (viewed from above hoof on ground) was thin and weak. After 3 months, he had wall at the ground in the quarters that was every bit as thick as the wall at the toe, and they haven't chipped since. No patching, no shoes, nothing but following this "new" idea of natural barefoot stuff.
- hooves should land flat. Wrong, they need to land heel first, and the harder the surface, the more they will land on the outer heel first.
- hoof growth slows in the winter. Well so does the amount of time a horse spends getting movement from riding! Put a shod horse barefoot and stik to an 8 week trim schedule, and sure that horse may chip off enough hoof through the winter so that by the time it gets shod int he spring "there's nothing to nail to". But its not because the hoof hasn't grown, its because its been allowed to wear naturally some. Also, consider that feeds have improved dramatically in the past few decades, so horses aren't as likely to "go hungry" in the winter, that means more nutrients to hooves.

I could go on but I'm probably starting a big fire, lol.

And then consider that many farrier schools still offer 2, 4, 8, 12, etc week courses, so you might get a farrier that is hanging a shingle after only a few weeks of education! Consider that the horse (note, not horses) the farrier had to shoe to pass the AFA test was not your horse, might have had hooves nothing like your horse's well we know that farrier can shoe at least one type of hoof according to AFA guidelines.

Its no wonder there is a push to get farriers lisenced under vet rules - there are some really trashy farriers out there! But that's a whole nuther debate.

97% of my business is fixing horses that have been inadequately trimmed, or spent too much time in thoughtless shoes, and I'm only one trimmer. Pretty loud if ya ask me.

[Heidi]

I could go on but I'm probably starting a big fire, lol.
Yes, yes, yes! I am learning A LOT! Please DO go on!

Does each hoof need to be trimmed differently (due to variations) and/or can they all be done the same way? How do you make the hooves uniform?
When my original GA farrier did not want to renew me as a client with my new filly (he was decreasing his area and I was too far out) he recomended other farriers in my area. They were busy and one recommended another...I was VERY disappointed with his work. All four feet on Q looked different and I never called him again.
Should I have called him back to fix it? I considered it, but I thought his workmanship looked so bad, I was afraid to have him come back out!

I think I understand flares...this is where the hoof has become a bit 'long' and the pressure of striding on the hoof in that area has "spread" the hoof wall away from the sole at the white line?

Quarters and heels. Please explain more in depth how this area becomes weakened by poor trimming.

If we cannot locate a natural barefoot trimming farrier in our area, what do we ask the regular farrier to do and what do we LOOK for so we can accurately judge the quality of his work?
Heidi

[Abejita]

Coreen..the reason that you 'start a fire' everytime you post on hooves is that ,whether you try to or not, you make it sound as if ALL 'school trained ' farriers are downright the devil.. and that ONLY NATURAL trained (although you dont say certified ,)Sandy MM mentioned her Natural Trim farrier was certified..but I guess that doesnt matter as exactly WHO is certifying them?..)farriers are worth the tools they carry. Its like someone else said in a different thread..its almost like a religious cult ;-)

[SandyMM]

I can only say that the natural trims our horses have gotten have dramatically improved the condition of their hooves in just two trims which were minimally invasive. Prior to this we have had trouble with white line, massive chipping, etc. and all of that has virtually disappeared.

[Terry Wallace]

I have to think.... that I must be so extremely LUCKY or something because all this farrier knocking sure does not ring true in my own experience. I have not ever employed a "bad" farrier.
Nor, have I seen damage to white lines on eight week old she jobs.

Lots of what is posted just does not ring true.

If "natural trims" are working for you...stay with them.

To me...a GOOD trim job is a good trim job...you can label it any way you want. Call it natural, or call it "pasture" or whatever you want...but the goal is the SAME.....sound, well balanced hooves.

IMO...this farrier bashing is blown out of proportion in an effort to promote "Natural" as a NEW thing.... something one should "pay more
for" possibly because its "Natural & New"....

All I can say is this. I've been trimming for over 25 years.... I've had horses shod for over 30. Never, and I mean NEVER have I had ANY problems related to shoeing. Never have I had shoes cause lameness, any kind of distortion, or any problems at all.

With trimming... I did once quick a horse, and I did once trim too short... this was back in learning stages. Back on the shoeing... I have had so darn many GOOD results from corrective shoeing, particularly with ringbone and underslung heels.... that I would NEVER even consider abandoning shoeing.... with instead using "natural trims" to "possibly eventually" arrive at the same outcome, much, much later.

I'll take shoes with pads over a trim for ringbone any day.
I'll take shoes with heel extension for underslung heels any day.

I won't participate in farrier bashing...nope, nosireee..... I will be quite thankful for every single one I have employed, thankful for their skill and knowledge, thankful that my vet agreed with and the two worked together on such horses as Mila, BNES Amigo, Corazon de Vega, (recent horses) and so many more horses I could not possibly name them all.

I just hope these treatises on natural trimming does not turn people off of farriers. A GOOD Farrier is just that, he does not have to use one particular method to do his job. Think about that the next time you attend a big national show...PLEASE note how many shod horses vs. how many that are barefoot....oh, and please note how many of the shod horses are lame or have distorted feet, or anything else... ;-)

[CarolU]

You know I have had horses trimmed by my farriers for years, and other farriers before that. I have NEVER experienced any of the bad things mentioned in the pasture trim above. I have to agree with Sheri, what you describe here Coreen is the difference between a good and a bad trim, not a farrier's trim vs. Natural. If I've had any complaint with my trims, it's that occasionally they will trim to short because they are used to shoeing. I have to remind them to leave them a little longer.

I did notice that you said that the Natural trim doesn't take out the sole. Is that new? I remember reading about Dr. Strasser, who pioneered the Natural trim, taking soles down to the point they bleed. And that in fact this had lamed some horses, and given some infected soles to the point they had to be put down. This is what caused the huge 'trim conference' that the Equine Practitioners did with Dr. Strasser and others where they looked at the Natural trimming.

What SHOULD be taken out of this is that a good trim is a good trim is a good trim. Everything should always be done to ensure the horse has a healthy foot.

[GeorgeGuns]

Coreen..the reason that you 'start a fire' everytime you post on hooves is that ,whether you try to or not, you make it sound as if ALL 'school trained ' farriers are downright the devil..

Really? I thought I got out of that by often making statements that there are good farriers out there. Frankly, from what I've seen both with work and elsewhere, there are a lot many more poor farriers than talented. That's just a sad fact.

The reason most trimmers charge more is because we are in essence rehabilitating hooves, we actually specialize in understanding the bare hoof, and the shoeless horse. I can go to a family doctor and have high blood pressure treated, or I can go to a cardiologist and (pay more) get a real specialist. Family doctors can actually prescribe chemotherapies, but the oncologist, that gets paid more, is the specialist. Same thing with farriery: farriers get a good but general overview of the hoof, but the focus is shoeing, not barefoot. AFA certification involves (revolves around?) making a shoe from a bar of iron - that says a lot about what the focus is. It is a known and proven fact that shoes cause hoof contraction (read - decrease in hoof function), some horses to differing degrees over differing time periods, and a good farier can keep a horse in shoes for 20 years without blatant lameness. Good for them, the changes still happen. Its a fact, not an opinion, it happens.

Does each hoof need to be trimmed differently (due to variations) and/or can they all be done the same way? How do you make the hooves uniform?

Look at your hands - if you look closely you will see that your left has some minor (or major) variances from your right. Hooves are like this too. I've come up with a new term - TB Twisty leg Syndrome, because way too many TBs have legs that zig zag, left more often than right. Horses that toe in or tow out will usually have one that does so a little more than the right. A horse may have a hoof that is a little bit bigger than the other one. The important thing is that each hoof should be balanced for itself, it should land well and breakover well, or as well as it can for the leg its attached to. A fun optical illusion is when all hooves are done for each individual leg, they look uniform even if they aren't! (unless the discrepancies are really blatant like a club foot under a shoulder injury)
However, if you get a job done, and soon after you look and your horse;s hooes look like they have gone all askew, that's a problem. If it doesn't look like it belongs on the end of that leg, it probably doesn't!


I think I understand flares...this is where the hoof has become a bit 'long' and the pressure of striding on the hoof in that area has "spread" the hoof wall away from the sole at the white line?
Exactly. If you have enough thumb or fingernail beyond your finger, put wonsard pressure on it. How long do you want to do that? Now, trim the nail, and put the pressure on your finger tip.. much more comfy eh?

Quarters and heels. Please explain more in depth how this area becomes weakened by poor trimming.

Okay, we all know that a hoof expands on landing, and contracts with lifting. The heel and healthy frog should get the brunt of impact, and do a large portion of shock absorption. Landing heel first perpetuates good heel and frog function. Poor trimming usually involves leaving the heels longer than necessary. The quarters come into play here, and its a bit difficult to explain without a flexible visual, but I'll try. Consider that the hoof wall actually goes from the end of a bar out to the heel around the hoof to the other side etc to the end of the other bar. The quarters take a large part of the expansion work - not just side to side but back to front also. If the quarters are flat on the ground, instead of flexing down to meet the ground with each landing and then back to "neutral" with lift, they are force UP with each landing, and going to "neutral" means going the other way. When the flat quarter lands, and gets pushed up, this pushes up directly on the wall above it, and also the coronet. So lets look at the coronet - this goes from the inside of each heel bulb around to the other. So, if the flat quarters are pushing up on the coronet, its essentially bowing it, and in order to bow it, the heel must come forward. This can cause the heels to sling under, contract, or both. The quarters themselves can respond in a number of ways depending on the innate hoof conformation. More upright hooves tend to push the coronate up, contract the heels, with or without underslinging. Wider "fry pan" type hooves are the ones that tend to crack out at the quarters. In wet conditions these hooves may merely develope some bodacious "heel" flares that are actually quarter flares. The most dramatic response is when a hoof is not only kept in a too flat quarter, but also has sole thinned, theses hooves tend to migrate the whole sole forward and start looking like duck feet. In this case you will also see flatter soles, may or may not see stretched whiteline, longer frogs, and the bars slide forward with the whole sole too.

Ideal heel should be about 1/16 - 1/8 above live sole level and gently rounded for easier landing (who wants to land on a corner?) and it should be behind a noticable upward curve to the quarter at ground level which may or may not be evident when weighted. Even a good shoeing job should have these factors included, it allows optimal expansion shod, and yep here I go, a lot of farriers just plain miss this point.

How these areas become weakened: well the quarters just plain get abused. Heels that are not in optimal placement weaken due to improper loading (usually lack thereof) and most importantly, lack of circulation to the rear of the hoof. As the heels sling under or contract, the heel area is literally pinched to whatever degree, and that impedes both the tissue circulation of direct blood flow (therefore decreasing blood supply) and it decreases the circulatory effect the hoof has for the whole horse. The hoof is an amazing pump, and compliments the heart in overall circulation. So, decreased circulation = decreased nutrients = lower quality.

If we cannot locate a natural barefoot trimming farrier in our area, what do we ask the regular farrier to do and what do we LOOK for so we can accurately judge the quality of his work?

First, let your farrier know that you would like him or her to have a little extra time that day to have some good educational discussion, so you aren't rushed. Provide beverages! Let him know that you aren't criticizing his personal work, but that you are interested in exploring optimal hoof health. Be armed with a few resources (I've listed a few good books before let me know if you need it again) and be ready to share this information even if it means giving him your books! Lets face it, its a busy world. Not every farrier even has time to think about what resouces are out there but if they have it in hand they are more likely to read it. For farriers, Pete Ramey's book will make the most sense as far as how to and why from a more hoof only oriented perpecitve. Farriers that are more interested in a holistic approach will really dive into Jaime's book too. The first chapters in KC LaPierre's book has what I think may be one of the best descriptions of the actual cellular activity worded for lay-people. Just open discussion! If the farrier is annoyed and closed to the discussion, he's probably not someone I'd want working on my horse anyway, find some one else.

Anyone with a farrier that has any questions at all, please feel free to contact me via email or PM. I get p'ssed about the amount of innocent ignorance out there, but I'd rather be a source of information rather than irritation! Its really not rocket science, its just not emphasized nearly enough in farrier education, AND its something horseowners can do without screwing up your horse. Most folks err on the conservative side when starting out doing their own, so its "fixable". Sheesh, you should have seen the first few I did. What a nightmare! but when I looked at the hoof and said "hmmmm that looks weird and i don't know why" it drove me to study more usually on that day and by nightfall I as correcting myself effectively.

I think I missed a question: how do you know how far to go. I have a general rule of thumb that works real well for the roll. 1) the steeper the better, extra hoof causes a lot more problem than missing some. 2) I use the whiteline as my guage except for the heel area. If the white line (WL) is tight and the hof has good concavity and good heel function, the roll goes to just outside the whiteline. If the WL is stretched some I go to it or a little into it. If the WL is shot to heck, I go right through it its probably flared there anyway and its junk wall and needs to go away. Interstingly, where the WL is stretched, the sole callous will not be tight against the WL, and therefore the breakover will be inside the WL.
At the heels, I leave them rather flat, I do a rearward bevel on some underslung heels if contraction is present (usually) and this really speeds the de-contraction process and helps the frog find mother earth again. Bars get taken down to sole level and sloped up to meet the wall of the heel right in the corner there -the "seat of corn". Fractured bars (essentially a crack in the wall but in the bar) respond really well to this and repair in 1-2 trims.

How to tell if your trim is good? There should be no corners. Horse should land heel first. Wall should be a straight plane from coronet to ground. Quarters should be elevated from ground level slightly when not wieght bearing. Heels should be back at the widest part of the frog. 1/2 or less of the hoof should be in front of the widest part of the hoof, and 1/2 or better behind (to the end of weight bearing area of the heels). This all really applies best to hooves that are now maintainance only. Now bear in mind that a hoof may be in transition or rehab and may be getting there - there should always be improvement from trim to trim, and if I do my job right, when I come back for the next trim, I should find a hoof in even better shape than I left it! That's the real beauty of this stuff, we point a hoof in the right direction and it will go there even between trims.

Hope this helps!

[Terry Wallace]

Just gonna make one more comment here and then leave it to our resident "expert" Coreen....

I have not EVER seen a flare on a side wall that had any white line separation, from wall to white line. The flares I have deal with were just that...flared out, wall, white line and all IN TACT. This is of course caused mostly by going too long between trims! Allowing hooves to get too long to the point it flares the side walls.

Editing this to ad... Please go to pasoregistry.com go to the right side of the home page and click on articles, scroll down to "trimming the Paso Fino"...then go to "22 month old colt"... there is a case in point....that colt had the worst flare I ever dealt with...LOOK at the photos of his hooves as he stands...the hind hooves on the concrete...then, look at the surface of the trim in another photo collage...look at the flare there...see how both white line and wall stay intact and flare out together? THAT is what I'm talking about....

This is what I meant about much of the post "not ringing true"....

[GeorgeGuns]

Yep you sure can have flares with whiteline "intact", although around here it usually happens at the toe area. I did recently take on a horse that had "duck feet" they were so badly flared. He also had dorpped soles, very flat, due to excessive sole trimming. His whiteline was intact all the way around, but hten his sole was flattened so the WL didn't have much reason to stretch. Quarter flares usually have stretched whiteline, or more often in these parts it is on the verge of disease.

One of these years I would really like to do a comparison study and see if factors can be pinpointed that evolve into flares with, or without whiteline stretch. I have some hunches, but right now my head is too sleepy to contemplate...

[Ginger]

I have met two bad farriers. They weren't bad because of their work- well, not both of them- but it was because of their treatment of my horses. Ok- one of them DID do a very botched job on my ASB- took too much heel off, and it took a lot of work to get it back the right way.

One farrier took off too much sole on Ickis, and he was stone lame for awhile. It was because of little nitpicky things like this that I began to trim my own horse's feet. I didn't want to seem like I was "hovering" and "telling them how to do their jobs"- so I just started doing it myself, and I'd have only myself to blame if anything went wrong. I've been lucky so far, and have only recently employed the services of a farrier because he only charges $3/hoof, trims like I do, and I don't have to worry about Ickis's lazy @$$ falling asleep on me any more- it's his job to nudge him in the belly and say "wake up, you lazy old thang" every five minutes.

I don't call "my trim" any sort of name. It's, like Terry said... A TRIM. It only has to have a name if it's going to be marketed. I'm not so gifted when working with feet as I am other many useful talents. If anyone needs tarot cards drawn on their horses, let me know. I will also do color and stone healing long-distance. Yep, it's that good.

[Heidi]

*I've removed the pic because it was annoyingly distorting the board*
Anyhow, here is the thread link where you can see the photo...
Heidi
http://www.pasopedigree.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4251

[Abejita]

OK Heidi..ya gotta say WHY you are posting it..Anyone one with eyes can pretty much see it..but...well come on ;-)

I would love to see x rays of that one. Old founder could cause the dish.

[Heidi]

I posted it because it looks AWFUL!

How did they get that way?
Is there a reason why someone would want them to look that way?
How could those hooves be fixed?

I must admit, when I first saw the photos I wondered if the hooves had grown that way because of the concussive force the horse used to gait and if the horse stepped toe-first and caused their hooves to bend out that way...
h

[PasoJoy]

:cry: :cry: :mad: :mad:

[Abejita]

If it wouldnt get me in some BIG trouble I would post some pics I have of feet. Horse lived in shoes all his life and he had a very strong aversion to getting the ONE foot nailed on..Just the one..went through lots and lots of x rays..tests at the University etc etc..His hooves looked pretty normal, he didnt travel lame, didnt hoof test lame.the worst thing you could say was that had contracted heels, but vets said they had seen worse..Well farrier said..what he needs is to be barefoot..for a year the horse went barefoot ..( many other horses here went barefoot while he was trimming and they had no problems..)and for a year the horse was lame on just pasture turn out ,full time and if you think THOSE hooves look bad and mishapen ..you aint seen nothing..Farrier quit because I was too hard to deal with... :twisted: New farrier..more consultation with muckie mucks..back to shoes and his feet look normal again but he still hates getting the ONE foot done. Not wanting to get someon eone the "well if you had had a natural ..." trip.Point is there ARE sometimes reasons feet look really FUBAR and it may be due to bad care ,or due to someone trying to fix previous bad care..

[GeorgeGuns]

Not wanting to get someon eone the "well if you had had a natural

ROFL! Well yer gonna get it. Just because a horse is barefoot doesn't mean its barefoot right.

the worst thing you could say was that had contracted heels

Don't take that lightly. Contracted heels are the biggest reason horses get diagnosed with navicular, seconded by underslung heels.

Consider that when heels are contracted, the blood supply is cut down, sensation is cut down, etc. When they start to open, I'm betting a hoof gets the ol pins and needles feeling. Now if a hoof isn't put ground parellel (coffin bone), they will have toe pain and appear ouchy or lame. Without seeing this horse, hard to say, but I can sure make a lot of guesses to pick from. With Pasos, contracted heels are usually on an overlong tall hoof, so we can bet that the coffin bone still lands at a steeper angle if the horse isn't put in a proper trim. Without the shoe as a bandaid, yes, he will be ouchy. The answer, if you want to avoid the N word, is.. you guessed it, not a run of the mill trim.

[GeorgeGuns]

About that picture EGADS!!!!

not founder, unless you want to get picky, then yes its a mechanical and induced "founder". Frankly, I'd get the shoes off (who woulda guessed) and work towards getting at least 3/4 inch shorter hoof, at least half that can be done in one trim without doing any harm at all and with a large positive impact on the horse's comfort level. What you are seeing is flare, HUGE flare, due to an over long hoof, the internal structures are lower than they should be in the hoof, the breakover is way to far forward, heels way too tall and I am sure they are contracted. Sole is most likely migrated forward, so the frog will probably appear to be "good" when in fact its too long and just going with the flow. It probably hasn't kissed mother earth real good for eons. These are actually my favorite hooves to do because they respond so darned fast to a natural trim, 2-3 months tops to see incredible changes and ... soundness with improved gait! This is another hoof that is headed for the N word diagnosis.

[Ginger]

Ok, so to reduce the flare and bring it back to where it would be not considering the point of separation - that'd have to grow out- how would that happen? If it were on one of mine, I'd start slowly (like I always do, because I'd rather cut off my hand than quick one of my children) and although I'd remove some flare by a vertical nip, I'd try to not compromise the hoof wall and put all the pressure on the sole. I never touch the sole unless it's with a toothbrush (usually that of an enemy, to be replaced post-thrush-detoxing). I would do small trims or raspings every three weeks and roll the toe. I see too much heel, but I'd still take some off- not a lot, though. I see not so much too much toe as it's just misplaced from the rest of the whole d@mn horse's body.

Or I'd call John up and say "hey- come fix this, I'll dance one twostep with you at Mayfield next weekend AND pay in cash" so however wrong I am, it wouldn't wreck a horse. I'm not a farrier, therefore I can be wrong.

[GeorgeGuns]

Crystal you are very much on the right track. There is so much flare there that to totally reduce it in one fell swoop would involve invading the sole by about 1/4 inch! I would though roll it right through the whiteline, providing there is plenty of sole thickness. The bottom of a hoof like this can present one of two pictures: 1) overgrown sole that will be evidenced by a groove that goes right around the tip of the frog and needs to be removed down to live sole level (ie, just get rid of junk) or 2) insides of hoof are lowered to the point that this horse is actually flat footed. In that case, I'd go more conservatively with the roll, and either boot/pad the horse or keep it in soft footing, til it has adequate sole thickness, then transition through increasingly firmer footing. Either way I would definately put a gradual bevel at the heel from the seat of corn back so that the end point is at the level of the projected optimal live sole level - this is tricky and good spatial understanding of where a hoof needs to end up is the key.
Doing more conservative trims will definately get the job done, and either way, that flaring is going to take several trims to eliminate and will depend on the sole migrating back. After the sole goes back, the whiteline may literally blow up as the hoof says FY to the old useless wall its been made to hang on to - so if anyone that needs to know is reading this, don't go hollering "laminitis" if/when that whiteline does its thing! That is also a good time to all out attack the flare - the hoof is ready for a total de-junking at that point. Or ya can just keep up the roll, and it will still get the job done, just takes longer to be aesthetically pleasing.

[Abejita]

Ok I will quit posting

[GeorgeGuns]

Sheri if ya quit posting, important issues might not get addressed. NOt everyone realizes that just a little bit of contraction, for some horses, is very painful, (others can have a lot and seem fine).