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Rafael Arbelo
11-12-2006, 09:44 PM
Dulce Sueño had many offspring, but the majority of the entire PPRPF breed was funneled down through 3 of his sons.

Can you name them?

Once you do I have one a little tougher than that one.
Pasogirlz
11-12-2006, 10:40 PM
I can only think of two right now....so I'll give someone else a chance. :D I like this idea Rafael...we are all gonna learn a lot.
Heidi
11-12-2006, 11:33 PM
Batalla
Caramelo
Guamani

? I'm not sure about one of them...Caramelo.
PasoJoy
11-12-2006, 11:39 PM
I can only think of THE two....Batalla and Guamani...so I'll take a guess at Caramelo... :oops:
Rafael Arbelo
11-13-2006, 12:07 AM
Well ... nice try ... but here is the answer ...

1. Batalla
2. Guamaní
3. Nochebuena

In the magazine we have covered the history of Batalla, (1st edition) and Nochebuena, (2nd edition) ... we'll cover about the history of Guamaní in the future ...
Pasogirlz
11-13-2006, 12:12 AM
Got any pix you can post of three boys :?:
PasoJoy
11-13-2006, 12:46 AM
I see I wasn't the only one who guessed Caramelo! Rafael, I really must get your magazine.... 8-) I will email you!
Rafael Arbelo
11-13-2006, 02:02 AM
Lori, there is one picture of Batalla in the first edition of the magazine and there are pictures of Guamaní and Nochebuena ... I just don't have them :-? ... I'll try to post some ...

But here is another question ... and this one is TOUGH!!

As we all know Dulce Sueño had many offspring, besides from the ones above, which other of his sons left the 4th largest number of descendants?

I'll tell you what ... whoever comes up with the right answer gets a free year subscription to the magazine !!!
Kerry W
11-13-2006, 02:08 AM
But here is another question ... and this one is TOUGH!!

As we all know Dulce Sueño had many offspring, besides from the ones above, which other of his sons left the 4th largest number of descendants?

I'll tell you what ... whoever comes up with the right answer gets a free year subscription to the magazine !!!


Caramelo? :shock:
PasoJoy
11-13-2006, 02:15 AM
Nino??? http://planetsmilies.net/confused-smiley-17418.gif
Linda Y
11-13-2006, 02:24 AM
Rats...that is what I was going to say...Nino.
Rafael Arbelo
11-13-2006, 02:27 AM
Caramelo is off ... Niño is close but no cigar ... 8-)

BTW PasoRegistry is so wrong is not even funny :roll: ... So try to get your info from other sources ... ;-)
Terry Wallace
11-13-2006, 03:02 AM
Here is Batalla, ridden by his owner Jose B. Ramirez Acosta in 1944.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/BatallaPPR1944riddenbyownerJoseBRam.jpg
Terry Wallace
11-13-2006, 03:04 AM
This is Noche Buena ridden by owner Angel Avil in 1964.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/NochebuenaPPRChPF1964ownerAngelAvil.jpg
Terry Wallace
11-13-2006, 03:05 AM
Guamani..I do not know the year of the photo.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/GuamanirightsideshotWEB.jpg
Kerry W
11-13-2006, 03:23 AM
Caramelo is off ... Niño is close but no cigar ... 8-)

BTW PasoRegistry is so wrong is not even funny :roll: ... So try to get your info from other sources ... ;-)

Pretty funny Rafael....that's why I subscribed in the first place! :lol:
Rafael Arbelo
11-13-2006, 03:33 AM
Nice pictures of the big three !!!
Candice Burger
11-13-2006, 12:50 PM
Pasoregistry.com gets it's database from PFHA stud book CD. Pasopedigree also uses the PFHA stud book CD.

ALL are wrong, but then so is the PR Federation stud book and the others! ;-)

Don't believe any of them without the research and documentation to back it up.

If it looks too good, it probably is and if it doesn't make sense, it probably never will...

Dr. G's book is also full of errors, so pedigree researchers beware!
Kerry W
11-13-2006, 01:16 PM
Telegrafo???
Carol Nelson
11-13-2006, 01:56 PM
I have a Faeton LaCE granddaughter...here is a pic of her at three...I think you can see the Guamani traits. She is gaited perfectly...she NEVER does anything but gait! She is 21 now and retired.
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/36931danzarinarider.jpg
Danzarina Mi Lu
PasoJoy
11-13-2006, 02:02 PM
Dulce Sueno II ? http://planetsmilies.net/confused-smiley-17419.gif
Terry Wallace
11-13-2006, 02:03 PM
Telegrafo (did you want to see him?) Here he is....this is from 1945.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/TelegrafoPPR1945ownerJ.jpg
Rafael Arbelo
11-13-2006, 02:05 PM
Thanks for your input Terry, but Telégrafo is not the offspring we are looking for. According to my research Telégrafo had 7 registered offspring.

In reference to Candice's observation; it is true that all the stud books are "somewhat" wrong ... some more than others ... However, I came to the conclusion that the stud books of the entities in Puerto Rico have less mistakes than those found online, like Paso Registry ... they are not perfect ... but they are far better ...
Kerry W
11-13-2006, 02:06 PM
It was my guess for Rafael's question, but thanks for the photo.

Hey...since you mentioned the other day that there are so few resources for photos and info through PFHA....you might want to hook up with the Historical Committee Chair, and see about doing something with all of those photos you've scanned. ;-)
Kerry W
11-13-2006, 02:09 PM
Congo Fino or Copa...after those two, I'm all out of guesses! :lol:
Rafael Arbelo
11-13-2006, 02:13 PM
OK here is what I found in my research ... According to the stud book of the Federation dated to the 1930's (it's not perfect but is the best I can find):

The 3 big ones (Batalla, Guamaní and Nochebuena) in no particular order ... have the top 3 spots ...

The 4th in terms of offspring is El Indio (Dulce Sueño x Piquiñita)with 15 registered offspring ...
The 5th is Niño with 11 registered offspring ...
The 6th is Telégrafo with 7 registered offspring ...
Caramaleo and Mejorana show 4 each
Candice Burger
11-13-2006, 02:18 PM
Mmmm, can't agree with that observation about the PR Fed stud book.

The reason the PFHA database is wrong is because of presumptions on lineage. So, PFHA created "links" or relationships based on presumptions without any quality assurance oversights. So, once the link is made it's there "forever" without correction even when the correction is known.

The only reason I would say the PR Fed book might be more reliable is because it does attempt to correct past mistakes but it has also limited it's flexibility by REMOVING information that is pertinant for pedigree research such as coat color and markings AND registration numbers of parents. Limiting information introduces vunerable points of entry thereby making reliability dubious. So, confirmation is not any better than PFHA.

I'll have to discuss the % confidence and the % error with a statistician, but I suspect it's not very good.

Traceability, transparency, accuracy, makes for a good stud book.
So far, all the stud books I've seen fail one or more of these tests.
Rafael Arbelo
11-13-2006, 02:21 PM
Interestingly Controversia de Labriego can be traced back to El Indio on his dam side ...

Controversia de Labriego

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/Yumac/ControversiadeLabriegoPasoPedigree.jpg


And Don Gabriel can be traced back to Niño on his sire side ...

Don Gabriel
http://www.pasopedigree.com/Forum/uploaded/597-20061103112702.jpg

Note: I made a correction ... Earlier I had posted Poema as the descendant of El Indio, it was supposed to be his half brother Controversia ... Sorry ... :(