The Paso with "issues"

[AprilH]

I know we have all talked about the different personalities that our paso's have and how that makes them all so different and unique, sometimes unique "good," sometimes unique "bad," but how about the ones with SERIOUS issues!

I recently bought a 10 yr. old mare as a somewhat rescue mission/learning experience. The previous home for this mare (and she's had several) was with a nice family who after a year decided they just could not handle her anymore. They would have glimpses of what a nice horse she could be and that would give them hope, then she would fall back into the "nasty" mode. This was also there first paso and we all know that buying the "best" first paso can still be very trying! They were beside themselves about how to even advertise a horse like this and I think were relieved when I bought her knowing there was a possibility it could be a "nightmare."

She is a perfect example of a very smart, talented, pushed too hard too young, over abundance of brio and "very unhappy" paso! She hates people, other horses, dogs, cute babies, everything! For the first two months I did not ride her and tried to de-pressurize her the best I could. I've been learning what makes her "mildly" happy and tried to make our world revolve around hers. To give you an idea of how confused she is, she will pin her ears back when you come within 2 feet of her stall, sometimes show you her fangs and then nicker! She has turn out time in the am, stalled during the day and then out again before supper. Once you set her schedule you better follow it "miltary style" - exactly on the minute or she gets "upset." I've been trying to use reverse psychology on her and react with her in ways that is opposite from what she is used to. When she bangs on doors, etc. I put in ear plugs. I give her unexpected hugs (even while the ears are still back) and have found all her sweet spots. She appears to be a bluffer because she has never tried to kick, bite or anything like that but I watch her like a hawk! She behaves very well at hand but her stall is off limits (my casa not your casa,) so I only go in the stall when I'm bringing her outside. I started riding her a month ago and for the first 2 1/2 weeks would only let her walk and would make her stop and stand periodically while I counted to 15! If she moved we backed up, stopped and started counting again. When she gets herself worked up at a easy corto, we go back to walking. If I feel she is getting antsy while riding then I turn her down the side of the bank etc and we cut a new path! She has decided she might possibly like me just a "little" perhaps and is becoming a more enjoyable project. I have four other paso's and I can't tell you how many times they look over at me when the new mare is misbehaving with that look of "if we did what she is doing we would be in big trouble!" The amazing thing is she loves to go riding and will only allow me to ride one horse before her and then she starts to fuss. She is still and may always be something of a time-bomb when riding, you have to constantly stay on guard and anticipate her thoughts the best you can. I don't believe she could ever handle the show ring pressure again but my goal is to make her an enjoyable riding horse and a happy mama.

So, let me hear some of your stories about the "blown-up ex show horses" and how you are trying to turn their life around. I know, I don't like really like that term either but sometimes it is the best way to sum it up!!

[Boyd R]

I am not critisizing you or the term "blow up ex show horse" But they do not have to have been that to be the way this mare is. Another one I hate is "He must have been abused". Pasos are hot and all have different personallities. There is no way to know what makes each tick. Yes some were abused some were over pushed. But these are terms overused and should not be used unless we know for sure that they are for a fact. Noche sounds much like your girl and his past does not matter only his present and future. When I aquired him he had to be larieted to be caught and then he would curl around to pull you in close so he could kick you.
this is him this past spring with my grandaughter 6 months after I picked him up. I did little with him. Quit spoiling him, took care of some pain issues and ground work.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i95/BoydRuss/awalk.jpg

[motorgypsy]

I'm with Boyd on this. There's no real reason to try to figure out why the horse behaves the way it does and if some past experience caused it or it's just a characteristic of the horse. The present and future are all that matter and one just tries all manner of tactics to modify the behavior. Many times if you are just persistent the horse suddenly changes. You don't really think about it but then you say - wow - I didn't have any problems with this or that or spooking or any number of things.

the mare in my avatar was our first paso fino. She was like TAZ on a leadline, did nothing but fino or buck when I was in the saddle, disliked people and would stay as far from them as she could. She would tremble from head to toe if a whip was within 30 feet of her. She was so head shy you couldn't get near her head or ears. She was terrified of everything - hoses, stall picks, trailers, kids, lawn mowers and I could go on forever.

We first tried an elephant taming technique where all food came from humans. We did this for a month. It cured the problems with getting near her.

We discovered that wiggling our fingers at the sides stopped her from trying to charge ahead of us so finally we could lead her.

We discovered that round penning her was useless she would gallop all night and never join up.

We modified our tack and apparel so that we developed confidence that we could ride out her bucking spells and we discovered that if she did throw me off balance so I'd lose a stirrup that she'd stop completely until I regained my balance and my stirrup before she'd start bucking again. She bucked once for 45 minutes grunting with each buck she was so peeved because I dared ride her during feeding time. Her nickname was "the Rodeo Queen".

We made all sorts of excuses for her bad behavior. That was useless.

She never wanted to go the speed we asked for. So we put her in speed show, ran her in barrels, poles and all the other speed events. She decided she was happy to go more slowly.

We found the KBR website and discovered clicker training. We taught her all sorts of neat things like bowing and finally got her to flat walk.

We did LD endurance rides on her, got lost, she fell in a huge hole and we discovered that she would carry me through fire.

She's a keeper.

We now put tiny kids on her bareback, old timid ladies on her and I still ride her at a full gallop and she turns on a dime. I rode her in two filled arenas with people screaming and whistling and standing and waving their arms. She was an angel.
YUP - She's a keeper.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/CRW_7639.jpg

[DebbieS]

April, I must commend you for your patience and what you are doing for this mare. Good job! Boyd, that picture is priceless - I love it. And MG, your pic is beautiful!

Listo was abused/neglected as a stallion but he wasn't a show horse (wasn't even trained when I got him as an 8 y/o). He did not like people either and it took me over a year before I actually was brave enough to work with him and get some ground work done. I then sent him to a trainer to be 'finished'. I was very careful who I chose (and I chose a woman because of his dislike of men - it took awhile before my farrier was comfortable with him).

He is awesome now. BUT he still doesn't trust most people. People have to earn his trust and sometimes it takes a long time but normally, he can figure people out pretty quick.

Good luck with your mare. She'll come around.

[cowboy ed]

hmmmm, ya'll just get more interesting................. :shock:

[motorgypsy]

Methinks we enjoy very interesting horses.

Our pushbutton from the beginning - our stallion. What a dream. Our first two Cindy G mares - pushbutton also. Our two year old colt - a dream from birth. So they're not all "challenges"!

[Mellifluous]

Methinks we enjoy very interesting horses.

Our pushbutton from the beginning - our stallion. What a dream. Our first two Cindy G mares - pushbutton also. Our two year old colt - a dream from birth. So they're not all "challenges"!


I wuv Brilliant Bill. I think he needs to move to Homer.

[pnalley]

To give you an idea of how confused she is, she will pin her ears back when you come within 2 feet of her stall, sometimes show you her fangs and then nicker!

Have you had her hormone levels checked? Think about that sentance. It reminds me of me at certain time (I know, more info then you GUYS want or need). Sometimes females KNOW they are being hateful, and just can't help it. Hormones "could" be an issue here.

Also, I have had a horse that was as you describe. She was not a blown up, over worked show horse. She was an extremely intelligent, properly handled filly that was sensitive. She would work herself into a colic if we handled horses not in our family prior to handleing her. She was a great ride 1 out of 3 days. It took me long enough to figure out with her, I needed to ride her and show her a new skill (leg yeilding, backing etc) then leave her alone (about the new skill) for 2 days. Then I could go ask her to do what we had gone over a few days earlier and she "got" it. It was like she had to be shown what to do, then needed time to process it.
By the time she was a "finished" horse she was one of the best horses I have ever been blessed to throw a leg over.

Not all horses respond as they are supposed to, from the books you read. It sounds like you are making progress. If you can hang in there, and get an experienced person to watch what you are doing and offer advice, I think you'll be amazed at the animal you have.

[CarolU]

She sounds like JUST the kind of challenging horse I love to "rescue." I agree about getting her hormones checked...always eliminate a medical reason before attributing any behavior to abuse or personality.

Instead of doing the opposite, you might try mirroring her. When she kicks the door, kick the other side. When she stops and looks at you to see why you are kicking, smile, take control and have her do SOMETHING...even if it is come to you for a cookie, or step back a step, or get caught. Mirroring works very well...give it a try. When she is snaking her head and being spoiled, do the same thing...it's really a dominant mare thing.

[motorgypsy]

Well Mel we are now officially farm hunting so if you find any other great farm bargains let us know and Brilliant Bill can move to Homer!! ;-) ;-) ;-)

[motorgypsy]

You mentioned serious issues - paso number two.

We tend to be bargain hunters and knowing how much we would be paying for board, feed, etc. we didn't want to totally deplete our reserves. So we have bought a number of the less expensive paso finos - really excellent gait, potentially great horses but with issues or less training. Number two had 30 days of training. We had no idea how little that was.

She was really good in the saddle other than her whoa being a bit slow to react. Gorgeous and a gait to die for - BUT - she would flat MOW YOU DOWN on the ground. She also wouldn't let you catch her in the pasture.

We put a stallion chain on her with one of us on one side and a stout wooden cane at shin level on the other side of her before we would even open the stall door and even then we took our lives in our hands.

Then came clicker training. She had to wait 5 seconds before coming out or she didn't get her treat. (yes we taught her how it worked in advance). Then 10 seconds, then finally to stand as long as we asked with the stall door open before we signaled for her to leave.

We also taught her to stop on command and to walk on command. She was one of those who started at a corto and didn't slow for two hours. It was amazing how quickly she learned and retained the information.

For leading we just forced her to stay behind us at all times if we had to wave our arms, swat at her or smack her shins with the cane and she caught on very quickly but boy did we have to be quick or she'd sneak around and take the lead. She's perfect to lead now also.

For the pasture problem we just took her friend out of the pasture for feeding and ran her away from the gate back out into the pasture for about 15 minutes before we'd catch her and take her to her food. She got over being difficult to catch very fast.

She's still really antsy but does exactly what we ask now. She's another keeper for sure!

[cowboy ed]

some of these serious issues are because of a mechanical problem. it is usually a loose nut on the saddle horn........... :lol:

[Carol Nelson]

Oh....THAT'S funny, ed.... :lol:

[AprilH]

Thanks everyone for sharing your stories. I find it fascinating when a person can figure out what "works" for their horse and see such dramatic changes. Especially because it is sad to see so many horses get lost in the cracks because of maybe just one thing a person could have done different that would change that horse. But it isn't always easy to find that "one" thing, or "two" or "three!"

[SharonP]

Instead of doing the opposite, you might try mirroring her. When she kicks the door, kick the other side. When she stops and looks at you to see why you are kicking, smile, take control and have her do SOMETHING...even if it is come to you for a cookie, or step back a step, or get caught. Mirroring works very well...give it a try. When she is snaking her head and being spoiled, do the same thing...it's really a dominant mare thing.
Carol, why does mirroring work so well? Does it somehow "embarrass" or confuse the horse? Even if it confuses the horse, why would it make the horse stop the bad behavior? (I don't mean to anthropomorphize, so please forgive me.) Does mirroring also work with geldings & stallions?

[CarolU]

I think mirroring works under different circumstances for different reasons, one of which is that it is the opposite of what the horse is expecting, it catches their interest and for that instant stops the behavior. Yes, it works on stallions and geldings. As an example, whenever something sudden happens, Buddy (a young gelding) likes to go right brained and bolt away. Rather then pull or jerk on the line, I dance away too and he instantly STOPS and looks at me like "what the #$#!???" In that instant I take control, drive or back him a bit. I've stopped the behavior AND got him focused again on me and our lesson.

Try this sometime...it's an interesting method.

[Terry Wallace]

It works because you are "speaking Equus"...that is what horses understand.

have you ever had a nutty acting horse, where you also acted nutty?
The horse will stop what it is doing and "study" you....

Its like when you have a horse in the crossties for example and it is jumping all around for no apparent reason other than it wants out....if you will step off, a bit away and start stomping and dancing around and making raspberry sounds with your tonge....that horse will almost always top what it is doing and study you.

Same as when you want a horse to calm down, if you will exhale slowly and audibly, the next thing they do, is exhale... try it..it works...!

[motorgypsy]

Carol that is really fascinating. I had never heard a name for that technique but we also have used it successfully. When Chinook wants to fino on the ground I've finoed right along with her. If she wanted to go fast - we went fast - a LOT. When our 2 year old son threw screaming fits we recorded one and played back to him. When Silken would spook, I'd spook right along with her.

One thing we discovered was that if you put your hands up to your head in the "ear" position and faced your horse they were very interested, but if you suddenly move your head forward and "pin your hand/ears" they will back off in a hurry.

Ed I always heard it was a screw loose and it's for sure we have several. Why else would we buy horses that other people tell us are "difficult" ??? All their former owners were very upfront about their "issues". I guess because it's fun to see the changes. We learn a lot more than they do in the process.

Here we are sending information to supposedly intelligent species in outer space when we can't even properly understand or communicate with intelligent species on this planet. A former student who now works for the FBI hacking into governement computers just because he "can" asked me "Why horses"? And I told him just that - that it's fascinating to learn how to communicate with an alien species.

Their way of thinking is so very different because not only are they prey animals but they are strong and fast and extremely social. The interaction of the herd, mare interaction, stallion interaction and mare/stallion interaction is so frequently just like human behavior although I suspect they'd be insulted by the comparison that all of us should grow up with horses. It would make us much more understanding humans. It would also have taught me how to be a much better teacher and parent. Some things are just plain hard wired. You can't change them but you can channel them into a positive action rather than a negative action. Then stubborn becomes persistent, active becomes desirable for action activities like team penning, endurance and so on.

[Laura S]

I have a paso that did the neck snaking thing at me. She was new to me and had been doing it progressively more. So finally one day I did it back to her and she looked like she wanted to play and reared up towards me. I yelled at her and took a step towards her and she never has done it to me again.

[GeorgeGuns]

She sounds like JUST the kind of challenging horse I love to "rescue."

Great, Carol, PLEASE come "rescue" Cascabel!!! She is just about everything described above escept she has NOT been shown and she has NOT been abused or overworked or pushed too hard, she just has a major disdain for humans that aren't me and I NEEEEEEEEEED to get her gone!!! Her big plusses are that she is basically unflappable, and does like Parelli stuff!

[Fuego]

As a child ( 7-8 yrs old), I had a pony that would turn and nip me when I was trying mount bareback ( which was me diving on his back and wiggling my way the rest of the way up so I could swing a leg over). Nothing I did seem to deter him in this.

One day an Uncle ( being a smart alec) asked why I just didn't bite him back. Nothing else was working so I tried it. He nipped me while getting on , so after I got on, I leaned over and bit him on the side of the neck, HARD. He nearly ripped the teeth from my mouth when he jerked his neck away, but he never nipped me again after that under any circumstances.... he just found other ways to torment me. I learned alot form that pony.

Would that be considered mirroring the horse's behavior?

[lisa l aka marci]

Fuego - I did the same thing wtih an Arab stallion I used to work with - he was very nippy at times, and one day I had enough. After he tried to bite me, I got him good on the cheek - he never tried to bite me again!

[CarolU]

Yes, that's mirroring. Your horses were demonstrating dominant behavior. They probably didn't know what to think when you spoke HORSE and told them YOU were dominant.

For the record, a hard pinch is a little faster and safer then a bite.

Coreen, I wish I lived close enough to help you with Cas. She is an interesting and intelligent horse...lots of challenge there.

[SharonP]

This is kind of off-track, but mirroring doesn't work with cats. A year ago my cat nipped me one time too many, so I nipped him back. All I got was a mouthful of Persian long hair fur and a weird look from him! :-?

[Lois York]

Mirroring...works wonders. But patience, and a good quiet demeaner, and love can also work wonders.
My palomino mare Ofrenda wasn't a ex-show, abused, or over worked mare when I got her.
She wouldn't be caught...did the human only source of "life", reley on me for everything, thing in the round pen for a month. She sees me coming to the barn in the morning and she's the first one to call me.
Would not let me/anyone pick up a foot, SHE cow kicked every time I lifted a foot. So we worked through that...patience and lots of love, and a treat at the end of each session.
Ofrenda didn't like to be groomed, used my hand for months to wipe her off with, and wouldn't let me past the middle of her back without cow kicking. More patience...lot's of rep's.(not every day)
She did many more things...OMG it was a mess, trying, and even felt like giving up a few times, lots of tears actually.
But I would NEVER give her up now, she's my "Golden Girl". :D I took her to my only state side show last year. She wowed them all out...but she still vibrates from the time I get into the saddle to the time I get outa it, whether it be 15 minutes or 2 hours!
Don't give up on your horse...you'll reap the rewards in the end.

[roadrunner]

Sounds like another keeper!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[SharonP]

Would not let me/anyone pick up a foot, SHE cow kicked every time I lifted a foot. So we worked through that...patience and lots of love, and a treat at the end of each session.
Ofrenda didn't like to be groomed, used my hand for months to wipe her off with, and wouldn't let me past the middle of her back without cow kicking. More patience...lot's of rep's.(not every day)
Lois, how did you respond when she kicked you? Did she finally completely stop the kicking? Also, how did you get her to pick up her feet and let you groom her?

Did you just reward her for every "baby" step in the right direction?