Sickle hocks photos and Hock Confo Chart.

[Terry Wallace]

Better chart.... Camped under is the same as "sickle hock"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/RearlegchartWEB.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

The mare with the red halter...has sickle hocks
This is my mare... so I will show her "whole body".... as all horses have faults.
I will post a better one of her standing....next
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/SicklehocksWEB.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

Same mare...better photo.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/SicklehocksonPasoFinoWEB3.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

Sickle hocks AND cow hocks on a Paso Fino.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/SicklehocksonPasoFinoWEB2.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

Sickle hocks AND cow hocks on a warmblood. Note toe-out and hocks close together.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/SickleandcowhocksWEB.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

Paso Fino mare sickle hocks AND cow hocks....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/SicklehocksonPasoFinomareWEB-2.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

Just a note...you CAN have sickle hocks with no cow hocks, but often horses have both.

[paintedhorizon]

Is that something they can grow out of?

The day I got her (can't see the legs, but can see the hocks)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/jklawitter/sage/Sage1stday.jpg

Here is my mare Sage at 2 years old.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/jklawitter/sage/sage2.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/jklawitter/sage/noflies.jpg
Pursuant to your description, she would be considered as having overstraight hocks?

age 4
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/jklawitter/sage/butt.jpg

But good from the back?

age 3
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/jklawitter/sage/conformation.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/jklawitter/sage/Jam013.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/jklawitter/sage/sage3a.jpg

3 or 4, can't remember
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/jklawitter/sage/Sagewinter.jpg

Here she is at 4

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/jklawitter/sage/14434835.jpg


Now, with her new owner
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/jklawitter/sage/Sage1.jpg

Me on her when I visited her at her new place
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/jklawitter/sage/100_5280.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/jklawitter/sage/SageLugene.jpg
FYI, this mare ALWAYS stood square when she stopped. Never had to train her.

[Terry Wallace]

Nope..they don't grow out of sickle hocks...

Your mare has/had good hocks.
In her two year old, still developing photo...(in front of the barn) her pelvis and chest have not spread yet with growth that they will in all the other photos.... she had good hocks to start with. The two year old pic shows a filly in an upward growth spurt, with her tail slightly hiding her hock confo... in the rest of the photos...she is much more mature...
Note how your mares hock joint is almost always in line (depending on stance & photo)with her rear most hip (butt) bone point.

I can post an "overly straight hock" a.k.a. "post hock" if you would like to see.... Post hocks don't line up with butt bones.

[Cindy]

I really don't like the example they gave from the side view of a good leg. To me that horse is a bit post legged. Way too straight in the hock for me.

[ErinC]

Hay I know one of them bums,
tell me what does this do to gait, and health?

if you are just a trail person?

I can NEVER see fault, I am so bad at it.

can I post mine, and you can tell me?

[Laura S]

I can NEVER see fault, I am so bad at it.


Me too! Also, can you look at a baby and tell how their conformation will be when they are full grown?

[paintedhorizon]

Good! I always thought she was very well built, but that kinda screwed me up looking at your example.

I have also been told that if a horse stands square the majority of the time, on it's own, it's pretty much conformationally correct. Have you heard this?

This is a good link I think

http://gaitedhorses.net/ConformationLesson/index.shtml

[Terry Wallace]

Cindy...check the better chart I posted.... the other one was the first one I could get my hands on. This one, from "Well Shod" by Don Baskins is clearer and better.

Maybe this will help..... ;-)

[CarolU]

tell me what does this do to gait, and health?



I would like someone, like Cindy and/or Lynn to answer and discuss this, people who have seen hundreds of horses standing and in gait. I came from the same conformation school Terry did, was even trained to judge in college, but I'll be #$%@ to know out how it affects gait. My horse with the worst conformation, both sickle and cow hocks, is my smoothest and most naturally gaited horse (Santiago). He gaits without a lick of collection or suppling..gaits all the time, unless he's out-walking everyone and still walking, or cantering, which is also incredibly smooth.

I read a good article years ago on shoulder angle and fino/largo, but I've never seen anything written on hind end conformation and gait.

[Terry Wallace]

It may not affect gait at all...but it will cause uneven wear to the joint surfaces in time, depending on how much and how hard the horse is used. If it is barely ridden or even ridden 10 times a month, may not affect wear very much.

If, however..it is campaigned, ridden a lot, ridden on hard surfaces frequently, like concrete, sounding boards, granite, etc.... it can cause wear and concusion damage. I have a good article on concusion damage if you would like it.

There is a misconception that a sickle hocked horse "gets under himself" or collects better than a non-sickle-hocked horse, and that is bunk...what that is...is illusion.

Carol...the problems of crooked hind limbs is discussed in detail in volume three of "Principles of Conformation Analysis"..its about 40 pages long on that subject.

Have you seen some of our past champion Pasos that were very sickle hocked lately?..I mean to say...what shape they are in now?

Why is it that many of these very faulty horses are "here and then gone"..not to be shown again... any guesses?

[Cindy]

Gee, thanks, Terry. You changed the pictures, now I look like an idiot. :lol: Much better chart.

As far as what these faults do to gait, it depends on the entire horse. You can't just make a blanket statement that X or Y fault does this or that to gait because the body part that is attatched to said fault is going to come into play as well as all the other body parts together. You must look at the entire package of one horse in order to determine how and why it moves the way it does. Now I am refering to excecution of gait, not that the horse goes 1,2,3,4. That the horse goes 1,2,3,4 is in it's breeding and conformation has nothing to do with whether it gaits or does not gait. I know this is contrary to what many of you have been told, but I do love to be contrary.

[Terry Wallace]

Precisely..that is why I said it may not affect gait at all...

Gee C., didn't you see the other post where I corrected/updated the chart...after studying the first chart...it almost looked like a printer mistake..that they used a post hock for a normal AND a post hock!

Yep, that chart had to go....

[CarolU]

Now I am refering to excecution of gait, not that the horse goes 1,2,3,4. That the horse goes 1,2,3,4 is in it's breeding and conformation has nothing to do with whether it gaits or does not gait. I know this is contrary to what many of you have been told, but I do love to be contrary.

You are right Cindy. I have been DRILLED with "Function follows Form" and in the article about shoulder angles and largo vs. fino, it all made a lot of sense. That was the front end.

I'm not sure how it makes sense in the rear end...but I have been told that a horse with perfectly straight conformation in the rear will not gait. And this was by a person who had been in the breed for generations. To me, it makes sense that a horse that is already under itself will be there naturally. I'm not sure how cow hocks help, but this seems to explain the preponderance of sickle hocks in our breed.

And, for the record Terry, I agree with you that there is a price we pay for these 'defects' in our breed. Many horses are not sound in their later years. But is it because of their conformation, or their early training and being gaited a lot on surfaces. I think about how few humans have perfect conformation and our problems, and tend to think that hard riding has a lot more impact then most conformation faults.

Our breed also has a lot of long backs. I'd like to see what affect (if any) this has to the longitivity of the horse. I do LOVE perfect conformation...but am willing to accept that the established concept for perfect conformation is not "perfect."

Remember that we humans also decided that sloping hips were perfect conformation for GS's and Labs and caused displaysia in those breeds. We've also decided that the 'peanut roller' position is perfect for QH's, Paints, and Appys...and caused shoulder problems in those breeds.

I really wonder if our definition of "perfect" is biased.

[Cindy]

Let me guess, the article said that a horse with a straight shoulder would be more fino. BS. A horse with a straight shoulder moves with a shorter stride because it CANNOT move any other way. THAT IS NOT FINO. THAT IS A FAULT. Any horse be it fino or Percheron should have a good, sloping shoulder.

And, yes, that is why we have so much sickle hock in this breed. Because it APEARS that the horse is more under itself and working with more collection. BUT THAT IS ALSO A FAULT. In our breed description you will see that SLIGHT sickle hock is acceptable. That is because a horse with a bit of angulation in the hock will be a better performance horse that one with too straight a hock. But more than SLIGHT sickle hock SHOULD be undesireable. But a horse that is too straight in the hind end will gait just fine. That has nothing to do with whether the horse moves in two beats or four. It has to do with excecution of said gait.

As far as form to function, form will dictate how a horse excecutes, not whether a horse moves in four beats or two. That is genetic and I have seen many, many poorly conformed and WRONGLY conformed horses that gait, gait, gait. Gait is different than excecution of said gait.

[Polly Aulton]

Carol - I know what you are looking for and wish I could provide same. I would also like to learn how you look at any gaited horses and predict from the angle of hip and shoulder what gait the horse will perform the best. It's been reported that Lee Ziegler could do it. Unfortunately I never got the opportunity to attend one of her clinics where she explained the angles (both front and rear) and how they affect gait. Does anyone know if Liz Graves offers this info as part of her clinics?
I have noticed that if a horse is slightly flatter in the croup (I hope I got these terms right) it appears easier to get their back end under them and get that nice rounded form. Has anyone found that to be the case? Or do I have it wrong?
Thanks for the photos Terry. One more question...Are these deformities normally passed, i.e., are they genetic? Also--okay more than one question--do you have definitive proof that these defects only predict a quicker breakdown in the joint surfaces and, as such, mean a shorter useable life span for the horse?
Polly

[Polly Aulton]

I apologize Terry. That doesn't sound right. Instead of "definitive proof" I should have said "in your experience." The other way sounds snippy and I don't mean it that way.
Polly

[CarolU]

Okay...the article I read is referenced in this article about Paso Fino gaits. It is not by Lee Ziegler, but by Carlos Cortelezzi, D.M.V., head of the Department of Podology at the 'Criadero la J' in Cali, Colombia. I assume that he did a lengthy scientific study to make these determinations. Now he does reference hip angles, but says nothing of hocks. This is why I'd really like to SEE what affect straight vs. sickle hocks have on gait.

http://www.pasoregistry.com/articles/staccato_beat.asp

(don't beat me up! ) I just wonder if anyone has ever studied this.

[cowboy ed]

some of the smoothest riding paso finos i have ridden were slightly sickle hocked. dont know if that was why they were so smooth, though, but they were smooth!

[Cindy]

Very good article. I do not however feel that a difference of 4 degrees in shoulder angle that this article notes is a significant difference in shoulder angle. And this difference could very well be attributed to local breeding tendancies and have absolutely nothing to do with actual gait tendancies. If they had included gaited horses from different areas as well as fox trotters and such I would bet that the findings would be different.

[Lois York]

Good chart Terry...I would have to say that in my experience the poorer confo'ed horses I've ridden have been the smoother ride. But my half and half's have been the smoothest ride ever! 8-)

[Polly Aulton]

We did have one breeder who told us that the more of an angle the horse has from fetlock to hoof determines how smooth the ride will be. The idea was that the more angle the more spring/cushioning they have in their step. Anyone heard that one before?
Polly

[CarolU]

From the fetlock?? That sounds like weak pastern joints to me, springy even.
I prefer a strong joint, even if the angle is steep.

[Terry Wallace]

Are these deformities normally passed, i.e., are they genetic?

Yes Polly, very much so... they are passed. That is why it is important to not breed them.

As for definitive proof... there is LOTS... one of my favorite all-time confo men, Dr. Marvin Beeman (of Littleton Equine) is a total authority on how conformation affects the longevity of the usefulness of a horse.

He has published articles on it, many were in the local horse magazine. He is in Colorado, and he is the man who made it all have sense & logic. Not to mention he has been an equine vet probably longer than 40 years, has seen it all, has predicted many a failure due to conformation, and seen them come true time after time.
Particularily in racehorses.

ANYTIME you have bones coming into a joint at an angle, instead of coming into and leaving that joint in the center.... it can create wear in that joint it would not otherwise have had.

I used to have a bunch of Dr. Beeman's writings...I threw some away by accident. I wonder if anything would turn up on Google search.

It all comes down to form-to-function. If you have an unbalanced joint... it is only logical that it is more likely to suffer damage, particularily when you put a human onto an animal that was never designed to have weight on its back in the first place. Its pure mechanics.... I don't get why people do not understand that... ;-)

[Terry Wallace]

Well..he has tons of stuff on the internet....
http://www.enloequarterhorses.com/conformation0.php

http://www.equineortho.colostate.edu/questions/conformation.htm


http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaep/2000/39.pdf

[Lois York]

Wow Terry that site is great!!!! I put it on my favorites so when I can take the time to look it over!

[Laura S]

Hi Terry, I did order a couple conformation books because it is something I am interested in learning more about. I am really bad about it. One thing I was wondering though. Are there any paso bloodlines that you feel are more conformationally correct. Or any particlar breeding stallions? Thanks!

[Terry Wallace]

Yes...absolutley.... there are well conformed breeding stallions in Paso Finos and yes, certain lines tend to have many faults.

[Candice Burger]

Well, weak joints don't give a smooth ride. First is the genetics to gait, like Cindy said. Then there's the mechanics--the conformation. Smoothness comes from BOTH. The lack of suspension--genetics to gait and then the correct mechanics to peform the gait. Anyone encouraging faulty mechanics or conformation is only trying to make up for the lack of the genetic ability to gait.

There was a topic about this a few months ago about the lack of a clean lift off or suspension of the feet. The paso(s) in question had feet that were beginning their frame of suspension yet still were bearing weight. That is the condundrum of paso gait and why "straightness" and "squareness" is essential to correct gait execution.