considering this move HELP!!!

[Mudder]

I need your help. Gloat away Hast. ;-) ;-)

He is a 5 yr old Peruvian. Fiero's Sire is HDP Paladin and Fiero's Dam is LVA Reina Del Sol. He's not registered but can be if I want him to. He's currently being ridden for team penning. He's a 15hh Strawberry Roan. The lady that has him, just does not like this horse. She's used to QH's and just can't get into this guy. These are the only pics I have of him that I can use. Sorry for the poor quality of the most recent pic.

Here he is as a 2 yr old.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/Willau/Pics/Fiero-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/Willau/Pics/Fiero-2.jpg

Here he is as a 5 yr old.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/Willau/Pics/Fiero.jpg

[Mudder]

Ok let me have it as honest as you can give it to me.

[Linda Y]

Not very good photos to judge by, but he looks pretty good to me. No DSLD visible. Lots of substance. How is his gait and disposition?

[Mudder]

Here's the story. The current owner does not like this horse. She's used to QH's and just can't get into this fella. From what I'm told he's fairly calm, and is a ppl horse. I haven't seen this horse myself yet. They want to trade for a quiet horse, they can use for team penning. Which I have. If they like Shorty, we will trade even up. I know nothing about Peruvians. Just that Hast tells me I need one.

I've been in contact with the original owner of this horse. She raised him. She is willing to work with the both of us if need be. She has video's of him gaiting. She says he's very smooth.

How's that for vague, and it will probably make you roll your eyes.

[pnalley]

He looks good in the "young horse" photo's.

I bet when properly conditioned as an adult he'll be awesome.

Shoot, give it a try.

At worst it will be a great adventure!

[Linda Y]

Yeah, if you are wanting to trade your Shorty, and the horse is nice, I say go for it too.

[Mudder]

My son lives in the same town where this horse is. I'm sending him on a mission to get some better pictures for me. I want some up close and from all angels pics. I'll post them when he sends them to me.

I haven't heard back if they still want to make the trade or not. Will let you know when I hear from them.

[Heidi]

My Peruvian Paso mare was the SWEETEST horse I'd ever met. Just a darling.
Heidi

[PASOFAN]

I really like his looks, peruvians are great trail horses.. I would say go for it. Roan is such a neat color! Love it.

[LynnG]

Check out his gait under saddle and general ground manners. You can always have a pre-vet check done, esp if you are concerned about DSLD.

He looks like he'd be a good horse. A horse can pick up on negativity from an owner...just doesn't get the attention. He may just blossom with an owner who appreciates him!

[Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire]

I like him, and agree w/hast. 8-)
Welcome back btw. ;-) Good to see ya.

[Mudder]

Check out his gait under saddle and general ground manners. You can always have a pre-vet check done, esp if you are concerned about DSLD.

He looks like he'd be a good horse. A horse can pick up on negativity from an owner...just doesn't get the attention. He may just blossom with an owner who appreciates him!

Ok here's a dumb question. What is DSLD?

[Linda Y]

Here is a little about DSLD...
DSLD is a crippling, debilitating syndrome involving the suspensory ligaments of the equine lower limb. Degenerative refers to progressive worsening, desmitis (injury/inflammation) of the suspensory ligaments. DSLD as a term was coined by Dr. Jan Young of Arizona in a paper describing the syndrome in several breeds (1). The disease was first recognized in Peruvian Pasos by Drs. Pool, Pryor and Wheat of the veterinary school at the University of California at Davis in the late 1970's and early 1980's in an unpublished paper (2). DSLD occurs in many breeds of horse, and in breeds other than the Peruvian Paso is usually associated with aged individuals, broodmares, animals subjected to intense work loads (race horses) and animals that have sustained a prior suspensory injury (3,4).

Anatomically, the suspensory ligament is a broad band of connective tissue fibers containing variable amounts of muscle that attaches to the backside of the upper cannon bone on all four limbs. The body of the suspensory travels roughly two-thirds down the leg, behind the flexor tendons and tucks in tightly between the two splint bones against the back of the cannon bone. It splits above the ankle into two branches (medial or inside and lateral or outside) with the branches then attaching to the sesamoid bones at the back of the ankle joint. The suspensory ligament formed as an integral part of the "passive-stay apparatus" - the sling that holds the equine ankle joint up off the ground.

A chronic, progressive multi-limb (either two or four limb) disorder, DSLD is most often insidious in its onset. Initial signs can be nebulous and easily mistaken for other problems. Back pain, changes in attitude, generalized stiffness and a reluctance to work can be some common early indications. Frequently, well-gaited horses either suddenly or gradually seem to lack reach and extension in the front and appear reluctant to push from behind. They may start shortening their strides, or in other ways attempt to minimize the workload on their limbs. An extreme widening of the rear limbs during walking or gaiting as viewed from the rear is also common, (Peruvian horses normally move fairly close behind).

As the disease progresses, horses often have a difficult time standing for their feet to be trimmed, especially the rears. Signs mimicking arthritis are not uncommon, as affected horses can appear extremely stiff after a period of inactivity and then seem to work out of it with exercise. Often DSLD animals stab their toes into the ground and appear especially reluctant to load their heel regions. Broken hoof/pastern axes, usually seen as coon-shaped feet, are not unusual.

By late-stage disease some animals will have visibly enlarged ankles and/or suspensory ligament branches. Some swellings can be diffuse and represent an overall enlargement of the ankle area, while others can have specific enlargements centered over the suspensory branches. Dropped, swollen ankles, or hyperextended fetlocks, are only found in roughly half of Peruvian cases (5). This should not be considered the exclusive diagnostic sign of DSLD. A loss of angulation of the rear limbs is possible, with nearly complete straightening of the joint angles from the hip through to the ankle in some cases.

By end-stage disease many severely affected horses have been noted to be reluctant to move around, and many lie down excessively (some up to 18 hours a day). Other dig holes to stand in to elevate their affected limbs. Some have been described as sitting on feeders, fences or anything else they can use to take the pressure off of their painful limbs.

[motorgypsy]

DSLD is hereditary. I'd want to know that is parents and grandparents don't have it before I bought him and I'd have an ultrasound done. These are wonderful horses and having to put one down at a young age is heart rending. I'd be sure to ask CarolU since her Peruvian mare had it.

[Heidi]

This is my Peruvian mare, Poquita. She had to be euthanized May 2004 when her damaged DSLD ligament ruptured when rising from the ground one morning. She was about 17-19 years old. I only had her for less than 2 years and the DSLD condition was very advanced when I got her.
Note her forward leaning stance, the level hind pastern and post leg.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/78SilvAnniv/dh.jpg
The pics you showed of the gelding looked VERY good. I would not let the DSLD stories scare you away from a good horse, but do have him checked out. I believe a sonogram is the only way to tell if the ligaments are showing any calcification.

[Mudder]

It seems these ppl were not very forthright with me. The story goes like this. This is a very very green horse. He's had all of 12 rides under him. Of those 12 rides, 5 were by the original owner. They have an indoor arena in their yard. This yard has a couple homes in it. One yard is fenced off. It has 6 huskey dogs behind the fence. They wanted the horse to go between the arena and some trees, past the dogs, and he refused. The dogs came running to the fence barking and growling. They pushed and pushed this horse. When he wouldn't listen and go past the dogs, they laid the spurs to him. He reared quite a few times, almost going over backwards twice. Now he has a rearing problem. He has never been used for team penning either. I was led to believe he was a well broke horse, not a green green horse.

I don't want another green green horse. I certainly don't want one that rears. I'm too old for that kind of thing. This horse is hard to catch as well. From what I'm told, he's gone from a pocket horse to a I'm stayin the hell away from you horse.

They want to trade sight unseen. They have not seen Shorty in person, just a few pictures. I will not trade sight unseen, for a non checked out personally, unvet checked horse. I don't have a clue what I'm getting, and I could be lieing thru my teeth and vice versa. I don't think I want to do business with these ppl. I thought they wanted to come on the 2nd to see him. No they want me to meet them half way, and do an outright trade on the spot.

[Heidi]

Well THAT was fishy sounding. Enough to put me off. Tell them "nevermind".

[motorgypsy]

If it looks like a fish and smells like a fish - it probably is a fish! Sad because by not being honest the horse is the one who suffers.

[hast]

I agree. Too bad, but that doesn't sound like people you would want to do business with. Your dream paso is still out there somewhere ;-)

[Linda Y]

Awww, that is too bad. This sounds like it has the potential to be another good horse slipping through the cracks. Such a shame they weren't totally truthful with you from the get go. Worse shame they have messed the horse up. :(

[JennLM]

Glad you kept chatting them up until the truth came out. Sucks it did not work out well though.

[Carol D.]

Hi, I'm fairly new to this forum, though I've posted once or twice. Really need to do a proper intro, but just to respond to this thread:

I've owned two Peruvians over the last 8 years and have been pretty involved in the Peruvian and DSLD research. Both of my PPs were euthanized last year due to DSLD, now being called ESPA, equine systemic proteoglycan accumulation.

Linda Y is correct to what was known until recentlly. We now know that it is a systemic connective tissue disease that causes breakdown throughout the body long before one can see or identify it in the legs. Mine were 15 and 20, but the disease can manifest at any age. My gelding contributed to the research. You can see his photo on the 'vet pages' under diagnosed horses, 'Alisandro', at http://dsldequine.info. There are links to the latest research publications. This is very important for ALL horse owners to learn about, but if you are buying a Peruvian, even more important.

From the photos, he looks like a nice boy. I wouldn't say don't do it-- just be informed and know that there is still misinformation and denial in the Peruvian breeders community about this, though it's improved as a result of the research. I'd for sure find out everything you can about the parents and grandparents history, have a flex test and consider ultrasound on the prepurchase. The problem is, a horse can test clean at that moment and still break down within months afterwards. But at this time, family history and the flex/ultrasounds (which must be done by Dr. Mero's protocol by a vet who knows how to do the measurements correctly or is willing to learn) are the best tools we have. There is also a new nuchal ligament biopsy test being developed, but it is not conclusive in and of itself- simply another tool. However, a horse that has DSLD/ESPA in it's history that is positive on this test is not one I would buy.

I love Peruvians, they are incredible horses, but after a long search for pedigrees which might be clean, I gave up and went to a Paso Fino. I know there are Pasos with it too, but I felt my odds with a Paso of running into this particular condition were lower. My horses are really part of my family and I just couldn't risk the heartache again. I now have a very sweet, 9 yr old 3/4 Puerto Rican mare. I live in NW Washington state.
Good luck,
Carol Duby

[Carol D.]

Ok, I missed the second page of posts, so wasn't up to speed. Sounds like you've found out what you need to know about this poor roan boy.

At least I finally introduced myself, sort of.
Carol D.

[Linda Y]

Welcome, Carol D., and I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your two PPs.

[Carol D.]

Thanks, Linda. I'm happy to be part of the Paso Fino world now.
Carol

[Laura S]

Welcome Carol D. and thanks for the info! Tell us more about your paso! We really love pics too. :lol:

[Mudder]

I just kept digging till I got answers. You know ppl who know ppl kinda of thing. My son lives there as well so had him ask around. Anyone who is willing to trade without seeing what they are buying, is just too many red flags for me.

Now I have a contact, I can save up, and one day have me that Peruvian. :D

[Ginger]

You know what sold me on him?

The whole picture didn't even load before I liked him. Those ears and those eyes. Not stupid by any means, and I'll bet he's a real lion-heart, too.

I'll bet he's a real rug-cutter, isn't he?

[lalecl]

Welcome CarolD

[GeorgeGuns]

The sad part about all this is that a) whatever horse they end up with is going to probably get just as ruined (good thing you aren't sending your horse to them) and b) this horses probably has a great shot at retraining just for getting away from nuts like that! We know the rearing is directly related to spurring and forcing him when he is scared, well thats a trust issue that he'd probably welcome a humane human with. getting him over mean dogs, bow that micht be tricky. Hard to catch - I wuld be hard to catch too if I had owners like that. He looks like a real puddin (I share Ginger's sentiments!!) and I bet anything he'd warm up real fast with a loving owner. I'd buy him a lot faster than I would trade any horse for him.