Nazi Trimming Update!

[GeorgeGuns]

Yep there sure are a lot of different ways to skin a hoof. I don't have any cyber-bags, so provide your own.
I got a call yesterday "please save my horse". the poor beast has been strasser-ized for almost two years. Owner finally got fed up and started doing some research on her own, and called me. Yes the horse is going to live, and be sound. It won't surprise me though if he needs boots for life for riding.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v66/Coreen/Hooves/DSC00159.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v66/Coreen/Hooves/DSC00160.jpg
These shots are actually from when he was a few months into the strasser thing, the owner didn't send me the very first bloody pictures. It was too dark to get shots last night, so hopefully next week. Needless to say, this horse is very lame. I put on styrofoam pads, and his owner was in tears: for the first time in almost two years, he cocked a leg and relaxed. She emailed me later, was having too much fun following him around his pasture with a flashlight becuase she couldn't believe he was comfortable enough to run up hill. Its going to be a long road for this horse. He started out as a show TWH, full hoof packages, developed "navicular" (contracted heels really was all) and got sold to this gal as a pleasure horse. She has learned a lot, and I have to commend her for her didication to this beast.

Main reason I am sharing this is because while I've read about the Strasser stuff, this is the first time I have seen it in the flesh, and seen the damage it can cause. All this horse has in the rear half of the hoof is frog. NO bars, barely any heel structure at all, nothing. The walls were actually left longer on the outside than the inside (reverse roll?) so of course turning for him is agony. Interstingly, strasser people call this trim "heel function". OMG. I'm just in shock over this, that's all, had to share, free free to comment and don't hold nuthin back!

[PASOFAN]

the problem is over my head, never heard of this problem before... But wow! I am sure the owner is so releived, having tears of happiness is alwasy a good thing.. Glad the horse is on it's way to being pain free!

Was the white stuff in the pics the bad stuff? Please forgive me for my not having a clue... :roll:

[GeorgeGuns]

This horse had had his bars totally removed - what you see here is a few months growth, they had been removed down to the quick. EW. The white stuff is exposed wall, if you look at the heels, they are still scooped out. He basically has no support in his heels and obviously no bars.

Strasser is a german vet that went nuts with trimming practices. Her info on natural horse care is excellent, but her trims are .. very invasive. She certifies folks, and to keep your certification you have to vow to not do any other method but hers. Removing bars to the bloody tissue level is surgery, its illegal except for a vet, yet there are folks doing it in this country under a certification label.

[CarolU]

Oh Coreen...that is just heartbreaking. (BTW, this time I agree with you 100%) And to think these people were trying to do right by their horse.

But I do think a good diet, rich in biotin, 'humane' trimming (I'm sure you'll do fine) and he'll grown new horn and be a new horse in a year. Tell her to keep him in deep, deep sawdust/bedding until he can stand on hard surfaces again.

[Ginger]

Is that PINK I see where the bars were?....OMGWTF....

[Hollis D. Gammon]

Coreen, I've disagreed with you when I thought you were wrong, so it's only right to let you know when I do agree with you, and this time I agree with you.

I wish the dirt had been removed on the toe so I could see the white line.

This looks like someone, misunderstood some instructions and did everything opposite. Terrible!! Poor horse.

Out of curiousity, who made these pictures??? Was it the owners?? They obviously were made right after a trim. What was the purpose of making these pictures??? I'm amazed you were able to get them.

[GeorgeGuns]

Thanks Hollis. The dirt is in the whiteline - not uncommon in this area due to high moisture levels. Walls that have been let to extend past the sole too far or for too long may have small amounts of whiteline stretch, but dirt gets in there and yep that is where the whiteline is.

Either the owner or the trimmer got the pictures after a trim.

Unfortunately, that person was following instruction, this IS a Strasser trim. Or was, it sure ain't from here on out!

Yes Poni, that's pink, and thats better than what was originally done to the horse - he bled, on purpose.

I think this horse will have a much better 2006 than previous years. His owner really loves him, and has merely been misled.

[Hollis D. Gammon]

Do you have a pic of what you consider proper bars?? I and the farrier I use leave as much bar as possible to protect the heel, right ?? or wrong??
{in your opinion??}

[Heidi]

I looked at those pics and thought "Where is his hoof?!" It looks like someone did a hoof-ectomy. That must feel like having your fingernails ripped out. I'm glad he's going to get better.

What is the purpose of the Strasser trim, it seems to deliberately make the horse LAME if you have to do that until it BLEEDS?
Heidi

[PASOFAN]

I sure do learn somethin everyday.. This is terrible! Now that you pointed out no bar and how deep the spoop went I saw it right away.. Poor horse.. I too dont understand why making a horse bleed being a good thing. Crazy idea to me..

Thanks for posting this, I now know a little more on what to look for... :D

[Mellifluous]

Coreen-Please enlighten me...

I will admit that I am not a "barefoot trim" person. Mostly because I thought the basic philosphy stemmed from the Strausser methods and I felt that the "mustang roll" that everyone preaches about is a based on skewed information because the research was done in Spring after the horses had spent the winter pawing out their food and water. It would exaggerate the "rolls" I have seen many things that I do not like coming out of the "natural" movement for hoofs. The one that scares me most is the natural balance shoe. I have never seen this on a sound horse!

So, in a nutshell I guess I am guilty of lumping all of the barefoot people together. I am curious about how your school of thought differs.

I still think there is a place for shoes though! ;-)

Just curious

[halfmoonfino]

That's a nasty looking trim! Poor horse. I wish there were some better shots (for educational purposes only, of course). I trim Pitty in the barefoot style myself. I do take his bars down to the sole, but nothing more. I scrape away the dead hoof material (white, crumbly, nasty stuff) and trim the bars down to match the level of the sole. Pitty hasn't been lame a day since I took the shoes off last fall and learned trimming myself. I've been doing him myself for about 8 months now.

I have come into contact with people who claim to do barefoot trimming, but are very much into their own agenda and making the hoof look like a wild hoof. Consequently the heels are trimmed down way too low, the toes are shortened up too much, and you have contracted heels and a dead lame horse. Actually the guy I saw do it is my mom's friend's husband who is a certified natural farrier. He had watched me do Pitty once or twice before (but I never let him trim Pitty's feet himself except to do light touch up on the hoof wall). I was appauled at how he wrecked a TB gelding at our barn's feet. This horse was DEAD lame. Couldn't walk, could barely stand. He kept saying "you have to be patient, he'll be fine". I looked at the horse's feet and they were a MESS. I woulda slapped shoes on that boy 2 weeks after the trim. Sorry, but there is a time and a place. He's STILL in corrective shoes trying to recover and grow some heel. Eventually he could go barefoot again if done correctly, but he's not strong enough right now. I'll have you know the farrier led the owner to believe she was wrong to put shoes back on him for three months. Finally the vet overrode the farrier and BEGGED the owner not to listen to him. The horse was developing bad back and hock problems. Finally the woman broke down hysterically and put shoes back on him. It was one of the saddest things
I've ever seen. The poor owner thought she was doing the right thing. She just wanted his feet to "look as good as Pitty's". The farrier never did acknowledge his error(s). He indicated that someone out our barn had sabotaged the hoof and that's why the horse went lame. We wre completely outraged that he would dain to accuse anybody at our barn of injuring an animal. There were NO signs of trauma to that hoof save what the farrier did to it. We wre very hurt by that episode. It's really heart-wrenching to watch a horse suffer like that.

Thank God you're able to help this boy out, Coreen. I wish you all the luck!

[GeorgeGuns]

Pete Ramey addresses the issue of triming heels too low in a few of his articles on his site. Apparently its a common problem. The key is to trim so that the heels are sticking just a hair above live sole at the heel, and to never ever ever ever cut or rasp into live sole anywhere on the hoof (with the exception of super-rolling a very contracted upright hoof to start IF there is enough sole, usually is)

Backing up the toe too far is much less harmful than not backing it up enough. As long as sole isn't invaded, this is never a source of pain. Now when heels are over trimmed, the hoof responds as if its wounded, and indeed it is, the live sole has probably been invaded. This is exactly why the Strasser trim can lead to further contraction as in the hoof pictured above - no heel is as bad or worse than too much heel - too much heel (tall and contracted, underslung, or both) fixes a lot faster!

As far as the wild horse model, that is actually a good model. What Jaime observed in springtime was horses that had been in deep snow and NOT with hooves worn from pawing, but actually over grown and moist due to snowy and melting conditions. These hooves tattered and reshaped themselves quickly. I'd reckon he may have left out some gory parts, like the horses that didn't shape up fast enough became wolf fodder.

Strasser did indeed lead the way with the natural movement, and her information on natural HORSE care is excellent. What happened after she came out with all this was that folks like Jaime, and later a few others, did their own field researchon our own wild horses here in America, and found many similarities, and also dashed a few of Strassers very strict "rules" about hoof measurements. Many people are still getting over the Streasser influence. There are quite a few trimmers that startedout with Strasser, even got certified, came home here and found Jaime's info and went on to give up their Strasser certification for a better way.

The single most important thing for hooves is movement, followed by terrain, and for domestics, diet. Wild horses that have been through a wet season reshape their hooves faster and more painlessly because they are still moving so many miles a day even on wet hooves. Their soles are already tough and calloused, so its really a matter of blowing off junk wall and it happens within days of reaching hard ground. One study Strasser did do on the Carmague (sp?) Ponies in France was interesting. Those ponies live in marshlands, their hooves look like crap - splayed, tattered, rough, chippy, BUT they have excellent traction because of that. They are also tough as nails because they do get lots of movement. A horse kept in a wet pen will have a much different hoof - still tattery but no where near as tough becuase the movement factor has been squelched.

Understanding "natural" hoofcare is a lot more than just applying a trim to a certain set of guidelines. One needs to have a pretty good grasp on basic hoof anatomy, understand just where live sole is, what it means, how to read flares and types of flares (ie: a steep outer wall on a toed in horse is actually flared out some!) heel balance and height for a given living situation etc.

When I first started all this, and gleefully announced it to my vet, he had apoplexy because in his mind, that meant Strasser, and it took some good conversation on my part to assure him I was NOT doing the Strasser thing. I find this ironic too as he does have TWHs that he shows in hoof packages! He knows a hoof real well, but from a strictly veterinary point of view. I doubt that he thinks a whole lot about movement and dynamics.

One of the tenets I live by is to never do a thing to a horse that would mean its going to move worse after I get done. If a horse is lame or lamer after a trim, something is very wrong. To date I have not lamed a horse with trimming - Domingo did have it rough in her last trimester of pregnancy, but skipping a trim on her would have been even worse.

Halfmoon - I have a lot of sympathy for horses that are trimmed to the point of pain. I still stick by my guns that they can be fixed faster with pads and/or boots, BUT this means that the owner has to give up some riding time somethimes - OH WELL. I'm sorry, I do come from a perspective that if one is shoeing for convenience, that is a wrong reason. I'm not saying the folks at your barn were. It is unfortunate that this one trimmer did such a poor job, and that another wasn't brought in. I'd have padded the horses and put them on a good hoof toughening program of gradually increasing toughness of terrain AFTER the sole had regrown and hoof shape had resumed normalcy, plus some well known hoof toughening agents to speed the process. Not all owners are in a position to do this however, don't have a lot of choices due to where they must keep their horse for whatever reason. Most of the horses I see were already barefoot, but the owner is not happy with the job previously done. I'm picking up 5 QHs next week that are just this story - someone else has been trimming, but the owner is not satisfied based on what she has learned about how this should work, and I do expect to be able to make positive changes based on the same information that I know does work.

There are a lot of factors that go into the decision to shoe or not. With a good farrier, chances are a horse can go a life time with no blatant problems. Its been my experience however, and that of other trimmers that know what they are doing, that just about all probelms resolve faster with the right trim, and in many cases a horse that is written off as unfixable with shoes makes drastic and "miraculous" recovery with a knowledgeable and skilled trimmer.

I am huge into owner education. Part of this is leftover from my nursing, where I was into patient education: an informed patient, or owner, is better able to understand what is being done, and understand if its not done right! Education also helps owners see why what has been doen before wasn't working, and why what I am doing will work. This is the main reason why I am putting together a seminar mainly for horse owners to understand all this, AND I will certainly be helping to give information about what a good shoe job may look like, and how to optimize the horse's care if its going to stay shod.

Shoes can work. I recently picked up a mare that was done for two years by a good farrier - I say good because while there were some points about this mare's hooves that were not ideal, the farrier had in two years been able to decontract these hooves about 75% from where they had started. The end result though was a hoof that was too long and headed for other problems,a nd still contracted. The interesting part is that I could have effected 100% decontraction, on this particular horse, in less than 6 mos, without traumatizing the hoof in any way. I'm not bragging about myself here, except to say that the reason I can make a claim like this is because I KNOW that I have paid attention to what I have learned, and I've taken pains to get the right information and assimilate it with a good base in previous anat and phys understanding. I'm sure my trims aren't absolutely perfect, and I know i will always be learning. I also dont' follow any strict method and have learned how to read what the hoof is telling me. Thank God there are a few guys out there that have taken great pains to really put some dynamic thought into all this and given us the information that demystifies hooves. Unfortunately, as in all walks of life, there will be some that don't pay attention to this information to its fullest and will continue to lame horses and leave many people with a bad taste for something that borders on miraculous in its simplicity when done right.

I've been blessed, as have the horses I trim, that the Grand Organizing Designer (aka GOD) has given me horses over the past few years that are not beyond whatever my current skill level has been, and that each time I learn a bit more, He gives me a horse or two or three to challenge my knowledge and make me look for more answers. When I look back at some pics of hooves from even a year ago I wanna puke, lol. The horses were quite sound, but I can sure tell how my own work has evolved to now. Conservatism has paid off, and now I've got knowledge tools to know when to be conservative and when to go full guns. Or as with that Strasser horse, when to leave the tools in the truck and get out the styrofoam! Sure I've made mistakes, but on the conservative side which is a no harm done scenario. I have yet to have an owner call me with "you messed up my horse" and I shiver to think that I will not escape that one, but that really is my goal - to never have to hear that. Now if more trimmers would follow that, and get out of their egos about "I vill doo it ziss vay", we might just get somewhere!

Whew. Now I'm hungry, lol.

[lalecl]

i know i once mentioned the barefoot trim to my farrier and his response was if it is the strasser method get another farrier because tht ruins horses so when i explained it was not he was ok with it

[GeorgeGuns]

Well, we weren't quite happy with how the 1 inch styro pads were being worn, and the owner kind of gave up for a few days.. she won't do that again. I went out there yesterday and watched him limp up to us, carefuly choosing the best way to take each step. Poor guy. I knocked out some flare that was already getting troublesome and put 2 inch styrofoam on him and WOW. He walked off certainly not perfect, but a lot more confident and sooooooo happy to have some better support for his hooves! I went back out today and he looked even better. We still have along, very long way to go but this is huge for him. In the past, the owner tells me, he would look better for several hours after a trim, but by the next day would be miserable again. This time he looked better the next day and that gives me great hope.

While I am busy holding the owner's hand, Marjorie Smith (www.barefoothorse.com) is holding mine and as an ex-strasser person herself, assures me I am on the right track if this horse to recover any significant degree.

And THEN. oh this steams me to no end. As if I don't have enough trouble with an invasively trimmed horse, my perf'd founder mare got sabotaged. She got an acupuncture and chiro treeatment, and that was all it was supposed to be. Owner tells me that the practitioner whipped out a hoof knife and removed 1/4 inch of sole from this horse without even asking the owner who was not even present yet! From what owner told me about this person's comments, its pretty sure she is a strasser person herself, or a wannabe. But To cut on a foundered horse without the owners permission...... OOOOOOOOOH I am glad I didn't get to go out there for this, i'd have turned that hoof knife into a more lethal weapon, if it hasn't been already. I'm quite ready for a punk hairdo and loud heavy metal. Thank you for listening.

[Abejita]

To cut on ANY horse without the owners permission..I woulda kicked her butt to..Question..they styrofoam is for support and cushioning right? Not just one or the other? saw one vet make what she called lilly pads out of folded up gauze and athletic tape before..same idea?

[GeorgeGuns]

Yes, for support and cushion. Its great cuz you can rasp it to fit a need, or add layers once the first layer is compacted.

Lily pads are for frog support. The premade ones I'm not personally so nuts about because to really so their job they need to fit the heel well, plus the rubber is rather unforgiving. Frogs need pressure and release of pressure to be functional. I like your vets idea. We are doing something similar with Dolly - she totally shed her rear frogs, (founder sequelae) so we are using layered tempur as fake frogs for her, its working out pretty well as the new frogs grow in.

[darcy]

Oh Coreen, why would anyone remove sole from a foundered hoof, perhaps they were going for a coffin-bone-ectomy????

I have studied both the Strausser and Jaime Jackson's trimming theories. Intuitively Jamie's theories feel more comfortable to me at a gut level. The concept of cutting into live sole seems to be a bad idea, why introduce a pathway for infection???

What disturbs me most about your Strausser patient, Coreen, is that she seems to have no heel buttress left.... Why would anyone think that the sole and bars should be bearing the entire weight of the horse! Perhaps Strausser aficiandos should be made to wear sharp rocks strapped to the arch of their feet!

There have been times in my life when I have spent the majority of my time barefoot and during those times my feet were like iron... But I can't go run outside this moment across gravel like I used to. Why would anyone think that the same doesn't apply to horses, give them a chance to gently toughen up those soft parts, leave all the sole you can til it gets a bit of time "passively" (to use a Jaime word) contacting the ground.

I guess that is my main reason for not really agreeing to the toe & heel lengths I read about.... If I was to take my mare to those lengths today she would probably look like the pictures above, and she has only been shod twice in 15 years so she's pretty tough of hoof....

MODERATION in all things!! I consider myself an advocate of the barefoot performance horse and it pains me that something that can be so good for horses can be made SO bad!

[GeorgeGuns]

What disturbs me most about your Strausser patient, Coreen, is that she seems to have no heel buttress left.... Why would anyone think that the sole and bars should be bearing the entire weight of the horse!

This horse has been robbed of his bars too, so its the frog, thin sole, and walls at the quarters of all places that has been weight bearing. This horse amazes me though, he is responding so well to 2 inch styro, he goes from not picking up a hoof to handing it to me for as long as I want it! His toe is backing up at a pretty quick rate, and as his quarters get weekly relief he is turning better. I'm just praying like crazy that any damage done to his internal structures is going to become at least controllable. That poor dear horse - he hates seeing me coming becuase he knows he has to muster his resolve to put up with a few minutes of real pain while we get the pads adjusted, but he does it, and after the first hoof is done he totally changes, and by the time we are done he is kissin on me. I look forward to a day when he sees me coming and ain't complaining. Pray hard!

[Abejita]

So if you are thinking about the internal structures..Have x rays been done?

[GeorgeGuns]

If this owner was rolling in dough the whole shebang would be done! Had exrays last spring, but you can't really tell much about the soft tissue structures with that.

Todays update - WOW, he actually did not totally crush the toe of the new pads like he's been doing. The right foot crushed them about 1/2 right away, but he actually stood rather flat on the left. I love it when they feel better!

[darcy]

Glad to hear he's feeling a bit better.

[GeorgeGuns]

Now I'm really impressed: my invasively trimmed horse's owner has let me know that he spent Saturday night acting like an idiot, er, 2 year old. Buckin, rearin, tearin around, having a hey day with his buddy. Tore the stuffin out of his pads. I knew styro was good, but not that good! He's still acting silly today, so we are moving him into padded easyboots tomarrow. So far htis is turning out to be a much better trip than I expected. I'm still dubious though - when he starts really growing his structures back, he may either 'feel it' or not even notice he ever had a problem.

I gotta get a blog going on this, its too important...

Hi Coreen,
I'm Mary, new to this forum and I just read all of this story!
I feel so sorry for that horse and his owner. :cry: I have seen MANY cases of Strausser-ectomys here in IL. I was introduced to Pete & Jamie's theories in GA a few months ago, liked them so much because my Pasos went from no gait and body sore, to sound with CRAZY GAIT out the wazoo :!: I experienced the same things as your client!! I started studying about wild horse methods ( I bought the books because I wanted to know it ALL) and found a person in my state to come and do my horses. I had so many "issues" I didn't even know I had. I had some "saved" horses that were "navicular"...no they aren't!! I knew down deep they weren't, but I couldn't understand it...my hooves MEASURED/BALANCED just fine, they had all the holistic care any human could provide, and they were still "off"!???? It was a God send that I was introduced to these methods. I applaude you for your insight and educational ability. I have learned a great deal more about natural hoof care because of it. PLEASE keep us posted

[GeorgeGuns]

Thanks Mary, I too think these fellas (and let's not forget Ivy, Pete's wife, the hoof pad guru!) vets and farriers alike, that have taken the time to study what the real hoof is supposed to be, are a Godsend.

I think it was Dr Pollit that pointed out in a paper some years back that TRUE degeneraltive naicular disease is actually quite rare. The changes we see on exray are a result of the hoof imbalances, and the bone itself is not the cause of pain - its the squished and stressed internal structures. If the hoof was not an organ of expansion and contraction, there truly would be no hope for these horses.

What really kicks my butt, and I am desperately hoping Hershey will prove it out, is that its pretty well shown that hoof imbalances cause stuff like low ringbone, and more severe sidebones, and that setting a horse on a good natural hoof can actually reduce these lesions. Hersh has quite palpable lumps, so I am eager to see what happens.

I have a similar situation at my farm. A horse was given to me as a yearling with severe nutritional imbalance and her ankles looked like what you are describing in Hershey. (This horse looked like a 3 month old! I was sick!!) I did have a "regular" farrier trim her every 6 weeks and it wasn't enough for this situation. She never got worse, but she didn't get better.
She is now 3 yrs. and has only been natural trimmed one time. I have noticed a great reduction in swelling of those nasty paplable lesions.
She now gallops around the pasture and plays with the other horses.
I hope she will come completely out of it. I should send you photos ...it is so sad to see a horse develop this s*** at her age. :(
Can't wait to hear the next Hershey update.

[GeorgeGuns]

Well heck, Mary, post the pics and lets see'm! It kind of sounds like she was getting over some infectious process. Natural hoofcare will certainly help her keep moving well. Sounds like she is lucky to have you!

You got it, Coreen!
Taking photos today, should have 'em up by tomorrow.
I hope it will photograph well, she has black legs. Hard to see the detail sometimes.
I would love to have your opinion on this situation. Thanks ;-)

[CherylE]

Hey Coreen, I've been watching this post faithfully in hopes of getting a picture of Correct bars on a natural hoof.....I have had problems with my mare's hocks.....I believe her feet are not exactly right....can't put my finger on it but her bars are wider now and deeper than before and she is gaiting better.
Please post a picture of correct balance and bars. I have gone to other sites listed but am not sure what I am looking at.
My greatest Thanks for all your help....this site is still the Best. :D :smile:

[CherylE]

Coreen, sorry about previous post....just went to barefoot site you list here and saw Many pictures.....I must have better feet than I thought. Thanks again for your time and experience :D :smile:

[Brigitte]

Great job Coreen, keep updating with pictures and hopefully I'll learn some stuff