Mounting

[PasoJoy]

Well, I have been arming myself with a pocketful of treats and working on getting Poeta to stand still to mount him...I leave him in his paddock, with the other horses watching us, and as usual he stands fine to get on him, with no tack. I went from no tack, to halter and leadrope, to jaquima with double reins, to saddle (well, really a glorified bareback pad with stirrups) and jaquima. He will stand perfectly still for me to get on him, first I did it with a 'mounting block' (bucket :oops: ) then I did it from the ground. He gets a treat only when he stands perfectly still before and after I am on his back...he does this fine.
Then I started 'easing' him out of his comfort zone outside his paddock. The further I get from the paddock, the antsy-er he will get. If I take him totally outside his paddock he won't stand still.
I did end up riding him, but I took him back inside his 'zone' and got on him, then rode him down to the pasture next door...it took me a half an hour to get him to flat walk....by then he was SOAKING WET :mad: :mad: :mad: with sweat. He is very concerned about his 'buddies' back at the barn, and does not want to listen to me, just go back to the buddies...When I managed to finally get him walking, I would get his head in the direction I wanted him to go, but his body would be walking to the barn.. :roll: sigh...
I took him down the road...he never gives me a problem leaving home, but wants to 'hurry up and get it over with'... :shock:
Stopped at my friends house and got off him....big mistake...he would not stand for me to get back on, (I knew better) so I had my friend hold his head(if you just put your hand on his nose he will stand there)...took him back home....no more flat walk... :-? but made him corto relatively slowly...took me an hour to towel him off and get him close to dry....guess I won't try THAT again.. :evil:
So, I will keep at the mounting in the paddock and try to work from there...

[Abejita]

do you have a place you can groundwork/round pen him where he is away from his comfort zone? Get his attention there first?Yes he will still probably get himself worked up but he might learn it isnt the end of the world ..without you getting on him ..Or does he only get herd bound when it comes to mounting/riding?

[paintedhorizon]

Sounds very very herd/barn sour. Any chance you can pasture him by himself, where he can't see them?

[PasoJoy]

No, no round pen...I can leave him in his paddock and put the others out front where he can't see them, and I have done that before. He screams till I bring his 'buddy' back beside him (yet if I try to put them in together they hate each other. :-? ) I left him there all day one time..the neighbors were'nt very happy with me... :-?
I may try to keep him more separated next summer...right now I know he will get himself all sweated up if I put him in that situation, and then it takes forever to get him dry and hair unmatted.... :mad:

[Abejita]

well just try doing some groundwork/lounging in that paddock ..Something where he has to pay attention to you..it may not work instantly bit it will help..

[CarolU]

I agree with Sheri and Michelle. When it's time to work, he needs to pay attention to YOU and ignore his buddies. He will never make this change until YOU make him. You don't have to be far, far away, but out of sight for sure. Work him there - do just ground work at first - repeatedly. He'll learn that he can work there and THEN return to his buddies and he'll survive! Once he'll focus on you on the ground, you can start riding him. If you don't have it on the ground, you won't have it in the saddle.

You don't have to have a round pen. A lunge rope will work fine too, but do more then circling...drive him, make him back, put him over obstacles, cavaletti poles, through barrels, etc...where he has to THINK about something besides his friends.

The best ways to get a horse to focus on YOU is to be firm and make them back and drive their front end around. If you can do those two things, the horse knows you are dominant. You don't have to overdo them, but get his attention.

Buy "Dances With Horses" and read the Zone 1 training part...do THAT and get his attention and FORCE the issue.

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You could also try the John Lyons methods.

Take him almost to the point he feels uncomfortable, and then back to his buddies. Do this again and again until he is bored with it. Gradually add distance and time away from them, but always take him back before he stresses too much. He'll gradually learn he will survive out of sight.

Then work the #$%@ out of him near his buddies, but treat him to grazing, treats, messages, when he's away. Make the away experience something he looks forward to.

I find John Lyons methods work...but take a LOT of time. I really prefer to get in their zone and force the issue and get to work. Horses do not trust you to learn from if they don't respect you as a leader. You have to demand that respect. You don't see an alpha mare say "well, I'm not going to put my ears back at you because you may not like me then." Alpha mares are ALWAYS alpha. And guess what? They are always trusted too.

[Minouri]

The idea of giving a treat to stand still is new to me. Not judging it one way or another, just saying that I haven't seen it in practice.

The trainers I've worked with told me to work the horse every time he took a step. Scooter started backing one year....and my trainer had me back him all over the ring every time he did it until he stood still.

I was taught if they even take one step after you get on...you hop down and work them...then hop back on. They should be willing to stand for as long as you want until you cue them.

If you're sitting on the horse and he walks without a cue I was told to work him in circles and ask him to stand again until no movement occurs without a cue.

How do you give the treat? Is it a lean down and hand it to him? I guess it would have to be? How long do you make him wait for the treat? Is it just mounting your reward to patiently waiting for the cue?

Just curious. I'm always learning through this board.

[CarolU]

Ruth, I think it depends on what motivates the horse. Some horses (lots of Paso Finos) are impulsive and moving their feet is what they want. Making them move is more of a reward then a punishment. I also don't believe in punishing a horse except for the big 4 (biting, kicking, rearing or bucking). Everything else should be dealt with, with training or retraining.

Food motivates some horses (and yes, you lean forward and give the treat), but other horses could care less about food rewards.

I don't like to use work (or flexing or backing) as punishment, since they will begin to resent it when you ask for it as work. You want them to have a good attitude about work.

I find teaching the stand at the very beginning of their training and being consistent about insisting on it, works best.

Set your horse up for success. Teach a relax cue and make sure they are standing relaxed when you go to mount. If they step, repeat the cue until they relax.

Before you mount, grab the horn (or pomel) and move the horse until he squares his feet. Part of the reason horses learn to step out when being mounted is people don't do this, and the horse has to take a step or two to get their weight under them to adjust for the rider. If you square the horse first, there is no reason for the horse to learn to take any steps. Also, think about this. If you haven't squared the horse, and he HAS TO take a step to adjust for your weight, and you punish him for it, you are punishing him for doing something he needs to do to carry you. What was his alternative? Falling over?

Once on, sit there for 20-30 seconds or so and relax with the horse. This is where a relax cue really comes in handy.

[Minouri]

Carol,

To give my trainer credit, he did discuss squaring off the horse and acceptable and unacceptable stepping. There is a difference between a horse adjusting to hold you and just plain walking off with you on him.

I'm not totally sold on one way or another. I guess I'd have to see the treat method in action. I'd be afraid of making a mouthy, demanding horse.

I don't believe that Scooter ever felt punished by how my trainer worked with him. I'd have to be able to ask Scooter to be sure, though...lol Scooter was certainly not afraid or annoyed by the man and he always make his lessons clear to Scooter.

The more I learn, the more I know there is so much to learn. I suppose so many of these methods work perfectly in the hands of an intuitive horse person and not so great with someone who doesn't quite "get it".

I'd like to think I've kept true to how my trainer showed me to do it with Scooter....since we've had years of a good relationship together.

But there is always room for new ideas and rethinking what I'm doing.

[CarolU]

Ruth, if what you are doing is working, by all means don't change it.

There are many schools of thought on treats, and you are quite right, some horses get very mouthy about treats. I have colts (seem worse then mares) that focus only on the treat if it's in your pocket and don't learn a stinking thing. So I leave the treats on a fence post and only treat after a breakthrough. I don't use treats for mounting. I train it with a relax cue and make them stand afterwards. If they know they can't walk off, they quit trying.

If you don't use treats and don't want to risk it, don't. Or have a nearby bucket and treat in it when the horse does something right. This way is kind of funny, because they'll soon learn to go to the bucket when they think they deserve a treat. LOL

I know there are trainers who are rigid about not treating. There are also trainers who are rigid about no rewards, verbal or otherwise, of any kind. I am not one of those trainers. I think horses need positive feedback. I have seen horses that are highly motivated by treats to do more and more. I'm more interested in my relationship with my horse and their confidence in me then I am focused on accomplishing a a specific task. Its the difference between making a horse do something and the horse wanting to do it.

As an example, when I work with other horses, Rosie goes and gets on the pedestal to earn a cookie. She's a pretty sharp cookie (monster!). LOL

[Minouri]

Carol,

I always enjoy reading your posts. And trust me, I take something away every time. It's through discussion that we learn what we like and what we don't like.....and what other options are even out there.

I would say that my old trainer (who was not all knowing.....just more knowing than I) was anti edible rewards. He did believe in praise verbal and physical. And I would say that he had a good way about him when it came to the horses. I wouldn't have minded being a horse in his barn because I know that he would have been a fair and consistent owner.

He didn't believe in babying horses. At least that's the way he said it. He thought they were smart enough to understand the difference between an accidental kick and a cue to move. They were smart enough to know the difference between a smack to the rump from a stranger and your desire for the horse to move out. And I have to say Scooter was able to understand it pretty quickly. He used a lot of consistancy in his methods. He was an older man who had one bad leg that sometimes he could not control well when he mounted. And sometimes he would accidentally kick the horse in the side. When he first told me that I was really worried about what Scooter would think about it. You know, it took just a couple of rides for him to completely ignore any accidental whack from him.

And I think that training has shown itself a blessing to me on several different occaisons with Scooter. The kids were able to play lacrosse on his back with the ball hitting him in the rump and other places when they missed....and he took it in stride. Now, I'm sure it was more of an annoyance than pain, but another horse might have tossed our kids or taken off in a run.

I did accidentally smack Scooter a few times with a new set of reins once :oops: when I miscalculated their length and then panicked when I actually hit him. He stood....jumping in place...but stood for it. And I don't believe at all that it was from fear of punishment. I think something about that way of training allowed him to distinguish between a command and an accident.

He used a lot of circling and working .......pressure/release.....and if I remember correctly (he'd probably hate me quoting since second person is never as accurate)....I believe his goal was always to get the largest response from the smallest action.

I've been in a lot of barns and seen a lot of "trainers". Some I've thought were effective and some not so much. What I liked about this guy was that my horse was calm the whole time and calm when he came back to me....and I was able to recreate the training and reproduce the results by doing what he told me to.

Sometimes the advice is great.....and my ability stands in my way of the carry through part. I need simple and safe. There is a lot I don't know. That's part of the lure of coming here. I find at least one thing a day that makes me at least think about my relationship with my horses. It's envigorating.

[CarolU]

It sounds to me like he was a pretty smart trainer with a lot of horse savy. When I was young I was lucky enough to learn from several old trainers like him. And I still love to learn more and more.

I guess at this point I have to ask just what your mounting problem with Scooter is? And why you're asking about treats?

Where I see treats being helpful is as reinforcement when they learn something..as a reward. And as incentive to better. Like Rosie with the pedestal, having her offer to do it all on her own is pretty special.

I'm not sure we're answering your question. What is it you want to accomplish with Scooter?

[Minouri]

Maybe that's the problem. I don't have a mounting problem with Scooter....I just wanted to visualize the training technique. I read it. I was interested in it. I just wanted to hear about what it would look like and what it entailed.

Sorry :oops: I hijacked what was probably a very informative thread with my silly questions.

You may go on now...... :lol:

[CarolU]

Well, maybe you didn't hijack it so much as ask/respond in a way that made it seem like you were asking about Scooter, rather then about Poeta. Maybe if we looked at it from where Joy is, it would be easier to understand.

Horses have a hierarchy of 'issues' that you as a trainer have to deal with. It is important to realize what the issue is the horse is dealing with so you can respond accordingly. In order they would be:

Safety - survival - comfort - knowledge - rewards.

So, in Poeta's experience, when he's screaming for his buddies, in his mind it is a safety issue. Does he care about treats at that moment..NO. Would they be effective for training right then? NO. But, if he's in the pasture where he's safe, comfortable and knows what's wanted, are treats affective? Yes.

What Joy has to do is deal with his safety issue first. He has to know he's safe with her...and he's only safe with an effective LEADER.

Does that help?