Could I have opinions please....

[TrueStepPaso]

I'd just like to know what everyone's thoughts are on these...good OR bad. Also, if you were to choose one...which one would it be, & why?

Thank you.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g1/KIRAgirl22/Ropenosehackamore.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g1/KIRAgirl22/Shankedsidepull.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g1/KIRAgirl22/lilShackamore.jpg

[appyday]

Mechanical hackamores would be too severe for my guys..

[TrueStepPaso]

I'm SURE your hands are light enough to use them as a brief training tool on your guys if you wished.....

[Pasogirlz]

We tried the bottom one on Moms mare. I didn't care for it.
The first time, it left a mark on her nose, and then I wrapped it in vet wrap and it was ok, but I still didn't care for it. So we went back to the bit.

[Terry Wallace]

Severe nosebands on all..unforgiving...very apt to cause nose damage in the wrong hands...

I would not use any one of them...there are better ways than a bare rope to the nosebone....nose - bridge.

Have never had any horse, or trained any horse that would require gear like that.

[Mellifluous]

eeeek *runs and hides her horses*

Very harsh!

[cowboy ed]

you can use any of these on a well trained horse. i think the one in the middle looks best. i would probably wrap the noseband with soft rubber, but if the horse was well trained, it shouldnt rub anyway.

so, abbey(abby, abbie? sp?) what do you plan to do with it?

[Heidi]

I do not like any of them.
First, the rope noseband is too narrow and severe.
Second, the leverage action of all three, combined with the rope noseband, is too severe, IMO.

The main thing I do not like about leverage hackamores is that they squeeze the mouth closed. My Appy liked to travel with his tongue between his front teeth...a mech-hack would have had him biting his tongue. They can also break a jaw if used improperly or accidentally.

Can you not achieve the same training goal with a Colombian jaquima?

Of the three pictured, I would say the bottom one is less severe in action than the first two.
h

[Cindy]

Depends on what kind of horse you are riding and how you want to ride it. I would not use any of them on a Paso Fino for the way that I train my Paso Finos. That is equipment is meant for a certain use. What is your intended use for the horse that will be ridden in it and what do you hope to accomplish by using it?

[Linda Y]

I use a mechanical hackamore, but not one with the rope noseband. It is covered in rubber. I would have PREFERRED to continue using the jaquima, but Cita started bulling through it. I didn't want to use a bit, so this was the best choice for us. She likes it and works well in it. It makes no marks.
This is the one I use, it is a pony hackamore.
http://www.statelinetack.com/media/slt/images/products/detail/standard/original_imgs/in731328_18f19.jpg

[pnalley]

We used a similar hackamore on two games horses. One was a very physical horse and he didn't handle a bit well.
The other mare I used it on was light, and when this headgear was on she know it was games time.

I never had a problem with either marking the nose.

If you want a mechanicial hack look at the ones that have a wide fleece lined leather noseband. Short shanks and fairly mild especially when used properly.

Look here
http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/assets/product_images/Equine/A8DQ_Hackamore.jpg

[TrueStepPaso]

Thanks Paula for the suggestion.....I already have that one though ;-) ...I used that (and a rope halter) for YEARS before training my Morgan for a bit...it was great, except the fact that the purchase caused the headstall to get too close to her eyes, and it floated too much because my horse's faces are so refined.

I understand that all of these are severe....in the wrong hands. I believe that a simple snaffle is severe in the wrong hands. Actually, my horses do quite well in a D-ring snaffle, but I'm just thinking two things here:

1. No time lost to frozen bits in the winter.

2. I'd like to see what kind of response I'd get from minimal contact with this....

Of course, the rope nose would be oiled, and then wrapped in a fleece cover.......see, I like to experiment...my Morgan is doing fantastic in anything, and my Paso is quite responsive as well but still needs some respect issues worked out. To keep them listening, I've always found it wise to switch things up to keep them fresh, and also see how light you can get your horses/hands on ANYTHING. Heck, riding bridleless is fun, too.

[Terry Wallace]

Linda...that is my favorite mechanical hackamore..I have one just like it.

[Linda Y]

Linda...that is my favorite mechanical hackamore..I have one just like it.

I have two actually...one pony and one horse. The horse size was too big for Cita and mooshed her in bad places on her face.
Only thing I don't like is they rust so bad. They have some seriously pretty hacks out there now. Wish they made them in pony size! The blued steel with engraving and rubies. Ahhh!

[Minouri]

Hey when you come to my house I'll lend you my Pony Boy halter....lol....bitless bridle........I used it a couple of times. It was one of those impulse purchases. Still can't believe I spent the money on it. I did notice that it did some good for collection. Unfortunately it rubs where Scooter has an issue on his face.

[Cindy]

If the horses are well trained and responsive already, you should be able to use those on them just make sure to use a very light rein. Like no contact, only weight of the rein to elicit response. If you are looking for something that you can ride with minimal rein any of those should do it for you. But they are not designed to ride with contact. Riding with any of those is like riding in a finish bit. If you have the hands and the horses are advanced in their training enough to handle that you should be fine. If one is marking the nose with one of these either the horse is not ready for it or the riders hands are to rough. As I said, they are not meant for riding a lot of contact. Let us know how it works if you try it. I would bet that the horses will either love it and be very push button or hate it and want to stomp it into the ground. :lol:

[Pasogirlz]

If the horses are well trained and responsive already, you should be able to use those on them just make sure to use a very light rein. Like no contact, only weight of the rein to elicit response. If you are looking for something that you can ride with minimal rein any of those should do it for you. But they are not designed to ride with contact. Riding with any of those is like riding in a finish bit. If you have the hands and the horses are advanced in their training enough to handle that you should be fine. If one is marking the nose with one of these either the horse is not ready for it or the riders hands are to rough. As I said, they are not meant for riding a lot of contact. Let us know how it works if you try it. I would bet that the horses will either love it and be very push button or hate it and want to stomp it into the ground. :lol:

I agree Moms mare had a habit of pushing thru which is what caused the rubbing. She is a go-go-go mare and you have to hold her back a lot. She forced you to use contact on her. Since that time she has had a bit more training for that problem. She is much better now, but I still perfer the bit on her.

[TrueStepPaso]

True, true! I'm guessing my Morgan will act like its dental floss & roll her eyes, and my Paso will be a turkey for the first ten minutes of the first five rides in it, but will get the picture after that pretty clearly....

Bits, and any other type of head gear, are fascinating to me due to their history and the (for some reason) mystery ppl put behind them. They are only a small tool in our communication with horses, but a tool just the same....for me, its really neat when you can get the same response out of your horse no matter what you use with them. Something I need to work on with my Paso...

I think I mainly want to learn what type of headset this gives each of my horses, and just work with it until they each 110% respect it. I like learning about headgear with my own experience, so I can truly understand it, and know what it actually results in.

There are some things I would never use on my horses, because even though I feel my hands are very light & have feeling, I'm still not nearly as skilled as experienced trainers who are highly educated in the proper way of creating a finished bridle horse. However, these hackamores don't scare me because I know I would never abuse them, nor turn them ver to any hands that may.

BTW, Ruthie....I have Dr. Cooks Bitless Bridle....its fine, I guess. The only thing I can say about it is I wish I never spent that much money on something that does not offer refined communication with your horse... :roll: ...oh well.......

[CarolU]

It looks very harsh and unforgiving to me. Kind of like a cross between a western bosal and a mechanical hack. I wouldn't use one either, although I've used both bosals and mechanical hacks (with fleece leather noseband) before.

I can get all those advantages with a Parelli rope hackamore or a jaquima. And I keep my bits inside in the winter.

[TrueStepPaso]

The "bits inside" thing is a good idea, but I board, so its a pain in the hiney to make an extra stop to get the bits from work to the farm....
I could try it in my truck, but there's long periods where my truck is left cold....plus I keep my BM saddle, Skito pad, trimming tools, and various training equipment in the extended cab...its starting to look like a tack shop in there! :roll:

I realize that another option is to use the rope halters, but I've been there, done that...and I do it again every summer when I hack out bareback & stuff, but I'm just looking for something to "play" with. Like I said, that piece of equipment is only as harsh as you make it.

I think alot of equipment has a bad rep because SO many ppl out there don't know what the heck they are doing with horses, and they give a false image :roll: ......"get a bigger bit", "put on a tie-down", "run the horse till it doesn't want to run anymore, then run it some more..", "that horse needs a 2x4 over the head", knee it in the stomach till it sucks in".....

[TrueStepPaso]

Cindy...I like the middle one best, like ED! :D

I'm curious..if you HAD to pick one, which one would it be...?

[ErinC]

I loved My Dr Cook, It was the only thing I could use on My arab.
and I use to use it on Mico, but WHen I sold my Arab the Dr Cook went with him,

I got a great reponse from it on both horses..

[TrueStepPaso]

You can get a great response for headset/respect to pressure and all that, but its just like any other hackamore type head gear....its not refined communication. You can't lift shoulders with it, or seperate the right side from the left, etc.....

[Cindy]

I like number one the best with number two second and I don't like number three much at all. I like number one the best because it swivels at the cheekpiece to give a bit more flexibility. I do not like number three because of the way it cuts back in the cheekpiece as I don't see it fitting the head comfortably because of it's shape.

On another note, I can lift a shoulder and seperate the right side from the left riding with a halter. Equipment does not do this, technique does. Of course, equpment is an aid to technique, but it does not create the response.

[Rose Mary Axell]

I really like the Reinsman Little S with a leather noseband

http://www.smithbrothers.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_X3%2D0159_A_Reinsman%AE+Adjusta ble+Leather+Nose+Little+%93S%94+Hackamore_E_

[Minouri]

In the winter I don't use bits or saddles in general. Although after my last escapade I might reconsider the saddle for the trails. :shock:

When I leased horses in the winter I used to just stick the bit down my shirt while I was grooming. Not so it would touch the skin....but between the layers of clothing. People always thought it was a bit weird, but the horses were always happy about a nice warm bit.

A cheap and easy option would be to keep a heating blanket at the barn. Turn it on and stick the bit in there when you first get there. It would be toasty by the time you want to use it.

I know nothing about the hackamores you showed so I can't say anything about that.

[Terry Wallace]

Hey Linda...what brand is your hackie? Mine has never rusted..it is probably 20 years old and stainless steel.... was it "Partrade" that made those hacks?

[TrueStepPaso]

Rose....thanks! I like that one too.

Cindy, thank you for your response....I agree with why you like the top pic - how it swivels, and also that it doesn't have much of a purchase.

I like two the best right now, so i'm toying with the idea of getting it...

Also, I agree that training is about feel & technique, and its possible to acheive the same results from completely different equipment.....however, I still feel that with a halter/hackamore/bitless bridle its still a piece of equipment that is attached "everywhere", so its hard to to give a clear aid to horse when their whole head is being squeezed/pulled. Now, with training from the seat/weight, your able to communicate to the horse what he already understands.....for instance, I can get on my Morgan (and Paso) with a string around the base of her neck and ask her to trot, and then come down to a stop, back up and a spin on the haunches that she can lift a shoulder in to exit out to her right or left into a trot. No headgear, what so ever.

That being said, I'm not looking to lift a shoulder, nor seperate her sides...just go on a nice trail ride, ask for mild collection with mild contact and then require him/her to maintain that with no contact, only the suggestion of reinforcement.

I hope that makes sense to someone....I don't know if I'm explaining myself well... :(

Oh, and thanks Ruth for your idea...actually, we have a coffee pot thing that we boil water in while we're tacking up, but its still a pain in hiney.....I'm such a complainer, huh? :razz:

[SandyMM]

I have used the #3 hack on Emi (Reinsman Little 'S' hackamore - Arab size) - it's great for the trail - horses can eat when appropriate. I would not use it on a horse who pulled heavily - the information provided with it clearly states it doesn't have a lot of 'whoa'... Most of the time I just touch the reins to get a change of direction/speed.

The rope noseband works better than the leather noseband because the stiffness keeps it in place - the leather noseband seemed to slip down out of place. We have had no issues with rubbing or irritation of any kind.

Since the noseband just rests on the nose 99% of the time, I have had no problems with it and Emi seems to like it. Somewhere in his previous circumstances, someone appears to have cut his tongue rather severely. This precludes the use of most bits including all spoon bits, although Donnie did find a couple that he accepts readily (one has a forward tipped medium port).

Especially for day long trail rides, I really prefer the Little S (Arab size) from Reinsman.

(changed #2 to #3 hack - sorry - pix loading snafu)

[Terry Wallace]

TrueStep... #2 has a LOT of purchase length. #1 is "milder".

As to hackamore not having refined communication...nothing could be further from the truth!

It doesn't matter if it is a solid western bosal, or a two piece bosal & barbada...what matters is that it fits correctly...then, you most certainly can get refined communication..particularily with the bosal (nose) and barbada (curb) set ups sold by Casa Dosa, among other brands.

I have the one with a flat noseband (leather over very thin metal, the metal shaper is completely covered with leather) and a barbada with the double rings, plain leather.... it is a very good "communication device", not to mention headset "finder"...

[TrueStepPaso]

I honestly don't see how you can have pin-point, refined communication with something that is only used to either apply pressure to the nose/lower jaw (bosal) -- used for head set, or an all around pinching effect to the poll/nose/lower jaw all at once (mechanical hackmore) -- used for headset and/or stopping power. Refined communication at that point (using a hackamore) should come from the riders body in my opinion.

Sandy...thank you for your info on the hackamores you use....I was wondering about the little"s" hack, and if Arabian sizes sometimes fit Pasos better (the ones that have more refined heads)....

[Fuego]

I'm not experienced or knowledgable on western bosals, but I have seen reining horses being trained and perform reining in bosals. Finished horses would go to a bit, but starting and training was done in the bosal.

I can't imagine riding or training a reining horse if the rider wasn't able to have 'pin-point' communication with their horse. Like any training aids, they only work properly if applied and used properly.

Looking at a typical western bosal, I'd have the opinion as Abby. But having seen these bosals used effectively for precise communication between horse and rider, I can only assume I'm lacking some knowledge on how the bosal is applied and functions.

[LynnG]

I use the bottom one on my gentlest test ride mare. Her neck is set on low and she's a bit cresty in the neck. Otherwise she will stick her nose out to avoid pressure with regular leather bosals. It is not severe on her... it has an "S" shank and short vs the longer straight shanks one. You can also adjust the curb chain for effect. If its loose, there's not so tight pressure on the nose. I wrapped mine in adhesive bandage tape for some cushioning. She is ridden on a loose rein anyway and is a gentle horse...just need to get her attention to stop without that nose going out.

Its a flexible nylon rope that goes over the nose. I've seen much harsher used on Paso Finos. You need to look at the reason why you would want to use one of these vs a flat leather bosal. My others are trained with the leather bosals, but also have a different neck set and carriage.

Gentle and educated hands are important in any bosal or bit useage as per severity or NOT!

[dana]

But are we talking bosals or hackamores here? i have a rawhide bosal that i used for years on colts (not pasos)
i've always considered the ones pictured here as hackamores. i don't know a thing about the new ones but the style years ago was not pretty when you figured out it actually cut off a horses airways without alot of effort on the riders part.

[Terry Wallace]

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I honestly don't see how you can have pin-point, refined communication with something that is only used to either apply pressure to the nose/lower jaw (bosal)


Well, because it is not just for applying pressure to the nose or jaw.... do you understand the proper placement of the bumps of the bosal to the facial nerves? I'm speaking of a solid, 1 piece rawhide bosal....like many a western horse is trained for, called a "hackamore horse" wether it is a two piece or a one piece...

The bosal must fit correctly not be too big or too small, and it needs to sit on the nose correctly so the bumps contact the nerves along side of the nose bridge correctly...when you have that, you can surely have a push button, finger tip control horse, in which little rein and almost zero pressure are needed.

The main thing "wrong" with the rope hacks shown, is that they are too "rounded" and will not get results like a flat (shaped) nose or a 1-pc bosal. The high purchase on the #2 will give it lots of leverage, or lots of potential to de-hair a nose, as it will sit right on the nose-bridge, and be ineffective to the face nerves...

REFINED communication does come from the body in time..but these are training hacks.... not every day riding hacks... these are an intermediate tool to get to a better end...

IMO...if I had to ride with one of those hacks, I'd consider that horse to be "unfinished"... those hacks to me are beginning to remedial working rigs, and not finishing gear.

[SandyMM]

Just noticed I had said I used hack #2 on Emi - actually, it is hack #3 - Reinsman Little 'S' hackamore - Arab size - that we like so much. However, I did change out the rough curb chin for an English flat chain

[TrueStepPaso]

Yup, I understand the placement of "bumps" on any headgear that possess them in order to place pressure on the sensitive areas of the face. And most of them are for the "nose" area to set the head, along with the poll area if they too are placed on the headstall. A bosal still cannot be seperated and used independently on each side of the face is my point.....so, this cannot be refined communication. There is too much pressure happening at different places all at once....so, your horse has to already be PAST refined communication on all levels to respect & understand headgear like this, imo. That being said, it is not "finishing gear"....just something you could use if your horse was finished. I don't think a horse should be worked in any one thing for the rest of its working/learning years...

Some use it as remedial or intermediate equipment in stages of training.....and some use it (the bosal, mainly) as the "finished" headgear on horses. Depends on who you ask.