Blackwater River endurance ride

[sporthorse]

Well, Pocita and I finally did it. We completed our first endurance ride yesterday, a 55 miler in the Coldwater area of the Blackwater River State Forest in the Florida Panhandle. It was originally advertised as a 50 miler, but some riders GPS said closer to 55. I had signed up for the 25, because, as I told everyone, I was not going to do my first endurance ride if conditions weren't just about perfect! We arrived Friday afternoon. The weather was great with a clear sky, warm sun and temps around 65. The forcast for ride day was temps in the 30s in the AM, clear skies, high in the high 50s. The weather was apparently going to cooperate. So I asked about the loops. I don't like riding the same loop twice. I was told 3 different loops, the longest a little over 22 miles with a mandatory 10 minute rest halfway through, then a 50 minute pit at camp. The next loop was over 17 miles then a 50 minute pit at camp. The last loop was over 11 miles. Shoot, another 2 miles on the forst loop and I would have an LD ride (25 miles) in. Almost half the ride done the first loop. I can do this. Ok, so the loops set up for riders not getting bored and all pits (nice long ones) at ride camp. One of my favorite vets as head vet. And no shoes needed for Pocita. I couldn't even use the excuse of having to get up too early since the ride was in the Central Time Zone so my body saw getting up at 5AM CT as old hat since I get up at 6AM ET (5AM CT) every day. There was just no way out. Definitely no way out after Ed cheerfully announed to the million people around the sign-in table that "Lindsay and Pocita are doing the 50 miler"!. Everyone was very excited that I was FINALLY, after approximately 50 or so LD rides, going to try for the "big time". I did manage to sleep the night before, mainly by assuring myelf that blowing the first ride of the new AERC ride year was not going to be a biggie. I could say I tried, but Pocita and I were just not ready and scurry back to LD, the later start times, earlier finish times and definitely more time to visit and relax. So much for that theory. I set my goals: 3 hours for the first loop, 3 hours for the second, 2-3 (depending upon how dog-A tired we would be) for the last loop. And IN BEFORE DARK. It gets light about an hour earlier there than here so the sun consequently sets an hour earlier. I had to get this wrapped up by 5-5:30 or be out in the dark. No thanks, not after first climbing in the saddle at 6AM! We got started without a problem. I took up my usual close to last position for the start. I rode with no one except for about 6-7 miles on the first loop. Much easier to ride my ride and rate my horse that way. The first loop, although the longest, was the easiest terrain-wise. Mostly good footing and some low hills. I clocked in at the in-timer right on schedule: 9:32 afer a start at 6:30. Pocita was at pulse when I got to the pulse takers and went through the first vet check fine. We went back to the trailer and she ate and drank while I also ate and drank (Propel, not beer!). Back in the saddle at 10:30. This was the worst loop. Pocita was acting more tired than I thought she should. There were more hills and this time, sand. Several miles of it close to the end of the loop and no way around it. Walk, walk, walk. Good thing Pocita had done some cantering early on or we'd still be out there. And there was one area of heavy smoke. Never did find out what from, but it burned and dried my nasal passages badly as I'm sure it did Pocita's. But somehow we made it in the 3 hour time-frame. Pulse was fine, trot out fair. Brother she'd better chow down and then perk up on this loop or we'll never make it. Ed and Obi were finished with their 25 miler by the time I got in to the second pit. They placed 8th and got 8th place BC. Ed helped with Pocita ( she dragged him to the hay and feed bucket where she spent the next 45 minutes stuffing herself, thank goodness). By this time the first 10 placements on the 50 were in (how can anyone POSSIBLY ride 50 miles in under 6 hours????). And me plus about 9 other "turtles" with a full loop yet to go. Afer pep talks from everyone I was back on board at 2:30PM. Only a little over 11 miles to go. Yeah, well, that was the LONGEST 11 miles I've ever ridden. More sand, more long grades, a lollypop loop I'd thought we'd never get off of and to add insult to injury, we had to pass the Coldwater barn area TWICE. Once going into the lollypop and once coming out. Well, Pocita could not understand why we couldn't go to that nice barn and chill out for awhile. She would go a bit, stop and look longingly over her shoulder at rest and food and other relaxing horses. So I reminded her that the sooner she got moving, the sooner WE'D be back "at the barn" eating and relaxing and since I did not expect to be out after dark she'd better get a move on. She did and with the help of Ed on my cell phone checking on my progress every half hour or so (he rode the same loop on the 25) and cheering me on, I crossed the finsh line 2 hours after I rode out of camp. Done at 4:30 about 45 minutes before sunset and 1.5 hours before the cut off (12 hours) for the ride. And we weren't even turtle! About 6 people took longer than we did. Our ride time was 8.25 hours in 28th place out of about 45 starting (there were a lot of pulls). Not bad for first timers. It was easier than I thought it would be, Pocita did better than I thought she would, everyone was very happy for us, I think both of us actually felt better after this ride than after all the LDs we've done and she hasn't quit eating yet. She dragged me from the last vet check back to the trailer with everyone commenting that she could do another 25. I don't think so. Well, maybe, but the RIDER couldn't. She is a great mare with a heart as big as her sire's (Leo) and her brother (Obi). I think we will have to try this endurance thing again sometime. As one friend commented to Ed after our completion, "Another one's been snake bit". That is one way to look at it and, I'm afraid, it is going to be all too true. Lindsay

[SandyMM]

Congrats! Love to read your ride descriptions and glad to hear that you're final 'official' in endurance.... Who said bloodlines don't count... Leo, Obi, Pocita, and Emi's son... Sounds 'related to me! :-) LOL!

Congrats to Ed, too! Great job!

[motorgypsy]

Congratulations!!! Thanks so much for the wonderful description of the ride. What a great horse she is!!!

[GeorgeGuns]

Lindsay that is a great write-up, is it bound for PFHW? IMO you are brave for going straight to 50 from 25, and I'm glad you two did GREAT!!!

[B Hall]

Congratulations Lindsay & Pocita! It is a big step from LD to 50's but I don't know of any other way to get from here to there then take that step.

The first one's the hardest - Pocita will also build a lot of confidence from the accomplishment and you won't see those longing looks over the shoulder the next time. ;-)

Brenda

[B Hall]

Hey Sandy,

Yes Bloodlines sure do make a difference! But the family is much bigger then you previously mentioned.....

Unos Esperanza completed many CTR, LD and END rides and earned a PFHA high point CTR award from just the ctr miles. In addition to many 25's and 30's she has rides from 55 a day END, many two day 50's, a couple three day 80's - last one while she was prego.

Mito, & Miranda should be on the list... along with Sueno de Plata del Pluma™ , BRISCO DE PLUMA™ and Corina de Pluma™

Brenda

;-)

[cowboy ed]

good job, lindsay! see, it wasnt that hard, was it! i'm glad to see you join the ranks of those of us who have done rides of 50 miles or more on our paso finos!

do bloodlines count? not really. the key to endurance is conditioning and preparation. many paso finos are capable of it, regardless of bloodlines.

[motorgypsy]

I don't think bloodlines are as important as several individual characteristics but I'm sure some bloodlines are more likely to have them. The ones we ride in the LD's and who do them easily and without much conditioning are naturally high energy and enjoy running around in the pasture. They don't tire easily and are quite agile, have good bone, good feet, are not too flexy, have no major conformation flaws, are smart and learn quickly. They are very responsive and sensitive to the slightest cues. Smooth gaits really matter when you're old and don't recover easily yourself either.

One of ours tends to get too hypered up but did improve with experience, is extremely agile and has very comfortable gaits even though she's fino line. Her canter is to die for. The other prefers gait or trot, has much better sense as far as letting me know she is tired but is a little more prone to spooking when she's moving fast and her gait is less smooth because of a larger, more animated stride. The spooking is annoying and gives me whiplash but I'm in no danger as far as falling off because she only jumps about six inches to one side when she sees one of those forest trolls!! And she is improving.

The ones we don't ride in LD's are smaller boned, tend to pudge up more easily, are naturally more sedate, have much more flexy suspensories and just get tired more easily. I wouldn't ride a klutz either. One other thing to consider - if the horse is a footslammer I would avoid hard clay surfaced rides or use Easy Boots because the impact will cause damage. The featherfooted paso finos will hold up better in the long run although the footslammers do fine on a sand surface.

Looks like we'll be headed back to Florida fairly soon. Can't wait to get back into this great sport!!!

[Cathy]

Great job Lindsay! Hope to make it back on the rides with my mystery horse :D sometime this year!

[B Hall]

I was making a "fun" comment to Sandy and its all in "the family" so Sandy and Lindsay would understand it as such...

But BLOODLINES DO MATTER :lol:

Any horse of any breed can have some level of success in the sport of distance and every horse of any breed or any bloodline with in any breed will show improvement if the owner puts in the time training and conditioning....

BUT certain qualities are going to be a plus for certain sports and in any breed there are certain bloodlines that have a track record of the qualities that will help the horse excel at that sport or discipline.

If you make the comment that Bloodlines do not matter then you insult every serious breeder in the WORLD not just the Paso Fino World and a statement like that clearly tells the rest of us who is NOT a serious breeder. Breeding to the serious breeder is an art, a science, and most certainly NOT something that doesn't matter! Its not a game of chance if you know your trade! If you are breeding and you still think its a game of chance or that breeding is not something to be taken seriously and that a certain responsibility doesn't come along with breeding then please do some research or get the heck out of the breeding "game" because you will only do the breed harm in the future.

We have trained literally 100's of horses - mostly Paso Finos but many TWH, ARAB, QH, Paints, and other gaited breeds as well. And Paso Fino's are not the only breed we train and condition for distance - our client base is widely diverse in their breed loyalty...In addition we see 100's more come thru here over the years for breeding, boarding, or consignment sale and the idea that Bloodlines do not Matter or do not make a difference is totally laughable!

If your horse doesn't have a certain bloodline does it mean you can't have some fun enjoying distance or any other sport you want to? NO but are you going to have to work at least twice as hard as the guy with the horse geneticly designed for the same sport? YOU BETCHA!

If you have a Paso in your back yard and you want to try distance riding - by all means GO FOR IT! You will have fun and you can enjoy making progress and improving against your own record. If you try distance and you really like it - do some research and go out and get a horse that was bred for the task!

If you wanted to win the next fino championship I would give you the same advice! Try your hand at the show ring and if you really like it - do your research and buy a horse with classic fino blood pumping thru his veins!

Brenda Hall
Feather Hill Training Facility
www.featherhills.com

[B Hall]

Posting for Lindsay because she can't do it her self right now...


"George" I did not go right from 25s to 50s. Pocita did 5
back-to-back 25s (a 25 each day for two days in a row) over the last
year and she has also done a couple of 30s and one 35.

Lindsay doesn't want any new folks who may be thinking about trying distance to think that Pocita went straight from 25/s to 50's without a lot of preparation and conditioning.

Lindsay also said...

Tell the motor gypsies we look forward to seeing them

and also from Lindsay...

and thank everyone
for their congratulations for me

[SandyMM]

But BLOODLINES DO MATTER
Of course they matter - otherwise nobody would give a flip about who they bred their mare or stallion to - all horses would be terrific at anything you put them in. There would be no competition among stallion owners because mare owners could breed to any backyard XY for little or nothing and get a perfect horse.

Does that mean that certain _breeds_ of horses aren't well-suited for certain tasks? No. Can some bloodlines within a breed do things they weren't necessarily bred specifically for? Yes. Can you get a horse that's great at something other than what it was bred for - sure - but I wouldn't bet the farm on a continuous streak of flukes like that.

For the time, money, and effort serious breeders (big or small) spend on producing a certain type of horse for a particular task or group of tasks, you won't find (m)any that think bloodlines are moot.

Just because a horse has a famous fino name on its papers doesn't mean it's a great or even good fino horse 'in spite of' being 'fino-bred'... What about all the other genetics that come into play?

Just a Coral LaCE once on a set of papers - 3 generations back - doesn't gurantee a winning endurance horse... but coupled with smart breeding to accomplish a particular type - odds are tipped in your favor to get what you want.

[cowboy ed]

now, brenda, i am just trying to say that most any paso fino can do well in LD and endurance. you dont have to have a particular bloodline to do well.
and i will continue to disagree with you that someone who doesnt have that "particular bloodline" will have to work twice as hard with their backyard bred paso fino in order to compete with you. it just isnt so. i know, i have done it on more than one occasion.

[SandyMM]

most any paso fino can do well in LD and endurance
Quarterhorses got their breed name because of their speed at 440 yards, but you don't see every qtr horse owner chomping at the bit to get their horse entered in the All-American Derby - or even into a cheap claiming race at the nearest qtrhorse meet.

Are Pasos - as a breed - suited to LD and endurance? Some are, some aren't. Could many of them _complete_ a LD ride... possibly so. But just as in _every_ breed, some bloodlines _excel_ among their peers at things they were _all_ theoretically bred to do, so too in Pasos are there certain bloodlines that exhibit a convergeance of qualities - repeatedly - that buyers and 'consumers', i.e. riders, can count on with some confidence.

It isn't just speed, accurate range of gait, heart, oxygen usage, soundness, common sense, or any other single attribute, but the higher percentage of qualities that present themselves on a regular basis that makes some bloodlines stand out. Those that know of these bloodlines also know that there are probably 3 distinct and separate bloodlines that may converge to produce the 'perfect' LD/end Paso... I am proud to say I have all three bloodlines - very close up - here in podunk Pine Mountain (aka 'Green Acres), GA and hope to see the results in the next few breedings. :-)

[cowboy ed]

sandy, that's great. but i dont have to wait a few years to see what might happen with a particular bloodline. i get a horse that i like the looks of, as far as conformation, way of going, disposition, etc. then get out there and ride. that's how you get a horse to do well in endurance or LD. take a decent horse, then work, work, work. you can have the "best bloodlines" money can buy, but if you dont ride, condition and prepare that horse for long distance riding, it wont matter. ;-)

[SandyMM]

but i dont have to wait a few years to see what might happen with a particular bloodline
And that's the beauty of knowing where to look first... None of us have said other bloodlines _can't_ succeed, we're saying we have a preferred point of reference that should significantly cut down on the search time. And if I _know_ what I want and have the means to reproduce it consistently in-house - why wouldn't I?

[motorgypsy]

I own three mares who are nearly full sisters. Two are full sisters and the third's mother is the full sister of the other two and she has the same father. The three are a different as night and day. One is very admirably suited for endurance. One is not. The third - maybe, but probably not anything but LD. I look for the horse, not the bloodlines, for an endurance horse.

Now if I were specifically breeding to produce endurance paso fino horses I'd probably concentrate on Colombian paso finos because I know they have this trait in their genes. I'm not yet familiar enough with the Puerto Rican strains, nor do I know their history adequately to attempt to use them for this purpose as much as I love them although of course I'd study them for inclusion in my breeding program. Colombia has used horses in the most rugged mountains for centuries. These horses had to go all day on horrendous terrain up and down the Andes mountains. They were used for herding cattle, transportation of people and goods, bull fighting and family games and entertainment. The weak horses didn't survive. These are the bloodlines in most of our paso finos. Because we no longer eliminate weaknesses when breeding we get some who aren't suited for this type of work. But many still are. Identify the best, line breed and inbreed the best. If we were 40 years younger we'd probably give it a try!!

I do hope that as the population ages more and more endurance riders will look to the paso fino as a possible mount. They will find plenty to satisfy their requirements and bring joy to their hearts!!

And Sandy if I owned mares and stallions that were exactly what I wanted for endurance you better believe I'd breed my own!!! We LOVE Bronce and Emmie and Pete too!!!

[cowboy ed]

right sandy, nobody said other bloodlines cant succeed. that is essentially what i am saying, MOST of the other bloodlines can succeed. and the best way to tell they will succeed is to get them out there and ride them!

;-)

[Primroseddp]

so ED your going to tell me that if you take a fino horse , or a hot performance horse out there that you could do the same as say a coral lace horse, not in most cases, for instance i had a client that had a horse angelo lace died of a heart attack and he was in cond, i sold a fino/performace gelding intrepedid de calidad that also died the owner tried to do an endurance ride heart busted the doc said horse would not quit, there are bloodlines that do better in fields than other , doc bar bred cow horses, do not make great western pleasure horses and neither make great halter horses , and great halter horse bred most of the time do not make great race horses i thinkblood lines do matter a lot

[Pasogirlz]

I think what ed is tyring to say...is dont let the pedigree fool ya...take each horse as is....
For example Don...dont you think your Capuchino bred Largo horse might do well in endurance? ya know....the one you came in near the front of the Largo race at Nats with? :?: ;-)

[Barbwire]

Now everybody get off of poor cowboy ed's back. Poor ed, come here, I will defend you. Show Barbwire where it hurts. :twisted:

Oh, and Don, if those people had applied a one-rein stop on those horses that died, they might have lived, ever think of that? ;-)

[Primroseddp]

your right lori but on the bottom side he is bred coral lace type blood lines your right take each horse but most people do not have the ability to inspect and understand what they are looking for and certain bloodlines are and have proven the spec type of performance that they are most of the time suited for , most of the time thats why you do not bread a coral lace bred horse for fino stide is usually to long and not quick, from my humble thought my dear ladie lol

[cowboy ed]

yeah, that too, lori. dont let the pedigree fool you. and yes, take each horse as it is, without respect to bloodlines.

and no, don, i am not saying IF about the scenario you described, i have done it! i have done LD rides and 50 mile endurance on a six year old gelding, alto voltaje de LA, that is a capuchino grandson on one side and a terremoto de manizales grandson on the other side.

i also had a "halter bred" QH that was a great cow horse. and i have a "halter bred" breeding stock paint that is arguably one of the best speed event horses in the state.



thanks, barb! i does feel better now......

[Kerry W]

Better not teach him to read Ed...it'll ruin him for racin'! :shock:

[SandyMM]

Capuchino bred Largo horse might do well in endurance
Ah - but speed is not the single most important element in an endurance ride, because - technically - it isn't a 'race', it's a 'ride'. It takes a combination of all the other attributes to come together in a usable package to make a good endurance horse.

Also - please note - the LaCE horse Don mentioned was not related to Coral LaCE. 'LaCE' is/was a farm name used by George LaHood. Angelo LaCE was Mar de Plata-bloodlines.

[Pasogirlz]

Echo...is gonna be a great versatility horse.....Coral on one side....El Classico and Terremoto on the other....

I get that bloodlines count for sure....but it doesn't always guarantee....
Breeding two fino horses doesn't guarantee a fino offspring...otherwise it'd be easy to get, and we'd all have one. 8-) Sure Capuchino might be a famous fino horse...but I bet there are plenty of his offspring doing all sorts of things besides that. ;-)

[Primroseddp]

you could be right to a degree and as sunday selience the race horse there are always exceptions, even though he was a freak ,not a staight bone in his body but very fast, i understand what your saying and i would look back past those llines capbred what were the dams blood lines

[Primroseddp]

your right lori but do you bread two coral lace bred horses to get a fino i have not met anybody who would do that becaue the chances of getting a fino is slim to none,

[cowboy ed]

right sandy, now we are getting somewhere. endurance and LD is not racing(not for the most part, heck, if you want to race in endurance, get an arab or a mustang ;-) ). and that is exactly the reason i am telling ya'll that MOST ANY paso fino can do it and do well. ya'll should be thanking me for including a lot of horses, instead of excluding due to bloodlines.

it just sticks in my craw when people say you HAVE to have a coral lace bred paso fino in order to do endurance or LD. you don't. i have done it with more than just one or two horses.

[Pasogirlz]

i understand what your saying and i would look back past those llines capbred what were the dams blood lines

well there ya have it....look at each individual pedigree and horse on it's own merit. :D Who'd a thunk it. One horse on the pedigree certainly does not a fino horse make...(or largo, endurance, etc). Now...that being said...the GOOD breeders out there are doing there job to enhance, instill and make stronger the qualities they like....which is where bloodlines do count. But I'd venture to say that all the horses bred w/an ideal in mind don't always measure up to what might have been anticipated. And there are breeders out there w/no real ideal in mind...they are just breeding animals b/c they can.

[Barbwire]

(Wonders to self, "Just what is a craw anyways?" Hopes it isn't too hard to get things unstuck from. Fetches a crowbar and some WD-40 just in case.)

[Primroseddp]

hey every body before i forget have a very merry christmas and a happy new year , i am not right in caps because lori gets mad at me hehehe

[Barbwire]

Hay! Merry Christmas to you, too Don, and thanks again for letting me use your butt as my avatar.

Ok, enough of my silliness, I'm taking a double shot of Niquil and hitting the hay. Night all!

[SandyMM]

it just sticks in my craw when people say you HAVE to have a coral lace bred paso fino in order to do endurance or LD. you don't.

I didn't say that - I said there are certain bloodlines that lend themselves - consistently - toward the qualities that make a competitive endurance horse - one that can take the mileage ride after ride after ride and come back for more.

The Paso people who have actually researched the different bloodlines have come up with 3 that probably are going to be consistently successful - in some combination. Bloodlines don't guarantee anything 100% - but they do give someone higher odds for success. Why would I ignore proven bloodlines on the off chance that something else _might_ work out. I don't have the time, money, or patience to search out, buy, and train a horse for months to find out whether or not s/he's suited for a particular task. I'm going to start in the most likely gene pool and go from there.

Did I say I now have Bronce's dam here..... ;-) Hopefully, she and Emi will complete the necessary genetics I am looking to produce... :-)

[Pasogirlz]

your right lori but do you bread two coral lace bred horses to get a fino i have not met anybody who would do that becaue the chances of getting a fino is slim to none,

I would say if you bred two Coral horses together you are breeding w/a purpose...same as if you are breeding two Resorte IV horses.
BUT, you can't discount a horse soley based on one or even two horses on a pedigree....that Capuchino SON is a great example. If someone told you not to breed to him for Largo b/c he has Capuchino in his pedigree (up close I might add)...what would you tell them?....you'd say look at the horse...he speaks for himself...forget his pedigree. Could you sell him as a fino horse soley based on the fact that he is son of Capuchino?

Would I go out and look for a Capuchino horse to do endurance? NO, but if I happen to have a Capuchino horse that excelled at it...I would go for it and not be held back b/c of his bloodlines. Who knows...I might be as lucky as Ed was. It was luck right Ed?
.

[cowboy ed]

right sandy, i said people, not you.

breeding them is one thing, sandy. getting them out there to compete is another!

oh, by the way, what are the other two bloodlines that are supposedly well suited for endurance? i'm curious. because i have found several........ ;-)

[motorgypsy]

Let's remember that Coral LaCe was a pure Colombian stallion. This is what I was saying about the Colombian paso fino - originally a major work animal born and bred and ridden in the mountains in many cases. It so happens that both our endurance mares have both Colombian and Puerto Rican blood and most of Coral's descendents are a mix which may be giving us the best of both worlds??

Just a word those of you considering a LD endurance ride. If your horse is somewhat hot, put a heart monitor on it for the ride. It was very necessary for us for one of our horses because she got really wired the first two rides and her heart rate was tremendously high. She pulsed down well but I wouldn't have know it was so high without the monitor and she could have run herself to death.

[Laura S]

oh, by the way, what are the other two bloodlines that are supposedly well suited for endurance? i'm curious. because i have found several........


Yes, me wants to know too!! ;-) What are all the 3 bloodlines, all I know is Coral LaCe.

[motorgypsy]

Forgot to mention that we rode two Cappuchino sons who would be great for endurance. Super largo and loved to go go go, had excellent lasting power and good sense.

[cowboy ed]

luck, lori? nah, i dont think it was luck. well, maybe a little. it helps to have an eye for a decent horse, but the biggest part of successful endurance riding is knowing how much riding it takes to condition your horse, then getting both your and your horse familiar with the game so that they handle the crowd, the vet checks, and all of the other elements involved with the sport. at the risk of oversimplifying things, LD and endurance riding is not as mysterious and difficult as some people think.

[motorgypsy]

Great point Ed.

I assure you that if it were that hard I wouldn't be doing it as a somewhat decrepit senior citizen with less than perfectly behaved horses. If you trail ride regularly and ride fairly hard or fino a lot even and your horse is pastured and in shape you can do an LD ride on level terrain without a lot of problems. (I always joke that fino horses are the easiest to keep in shape - you can train them in your garage if the weather is bad!!) If you need to you can pull after the first loop. I pulled Lula twice, not because she couldn't finish - she vetted through fine - but it just had a gut feeling that I should because of terrain and dangerous conditions in one ride (riding in the dark alongside a road with traffic and fairly deep grass) You just pace your horse and yourself and it's really not hard and is great fun!! You meet such fabulous people too!

[GeorgeGuns]

Gotta throw in here. Ihad a breeder freind tell me years ago about one difference between PR and Col horses. Col's won't quit, they are obedient to a fault, will kill themselves for a good owner. PRs are more likely to get a little mulish and make it quite obvious that they will work for you, but not beyond reasonable stress. For owners of Colombian horses, this puts an added responsibility to really thoroughly know your horse. This is what appeals to me about ERs.

Horses can bust a heart ay time, anywhere, no warning. Very rarely does a horse actually have a true heart attack. Usually its an aneurysm that breaks, this can be instant death. It has little to do with conditioning, its a pre-existing dondition that isn't even known until its killing the horse. I know of a PF mare that died while tied, had come back from a regular trail ride, cooled down, was being untacked, and boom, she was down and dead. As far as I know this mare was "trail hard", conditioning had nuthin to do with it.

Gotta stick up for Ed too. With appropriate conditioning prgram, any horse can compete in ER or CTR. Strategy is key, no matter what kind of horse you have. Sure a fino horse can compete, but will they be in fino gait the whole time? Doubt it. Would i let this horse trot? You bet. Canter? Yep. A good ER isn't ridden at top speed the whole way, nor is it ridden in one gait (even for trotting horses) the whole way. Shoot, ya don't even have to stay mounted the whole time! Just because we now know of two horses that blew their hearts racing, doesn't mean that we have to limit what other horses can do. Its individual.

[Mellifluous]

Well Congrats to Lindsay and Pocita on their first 50!

I can't wait until Phoebe is old enough to move up to 50's.

[Cindy]

I have dejavu all over again. By the way, Capuchino had a smokin' largo. I have had several direct Capuchino offspring and every one of them would have done well at distance riding. And Capuchino combined with Terremoto would be great bloodlines for a distance horse.

[sporthorse]

although I am amused.
Lindsay congrads and please keep posting about the rides I will try to stay out of subjects like these that fire up a BB.

[Cindy]

Why is it that Capuchino can yield anything because he was bred to such diverse mares but I don't hear you saying the same thing about Coral or Favorito or Hilachas. Especially when the Coral and Favorito and Hilachas horses that we are talking about are usually 2 to 3 or even 4 generations removed from being actual direct descendants of those stallions as they have all been dead for so many years. Do you somehow think that the mares are playing a less important role in these descendants than an offspring that is a DIRECT descendant of Capuchino? And I am very happy that you are amused as this discussion never ceases to amuse me no matter how many times it occurs.

[B Hall]

Cowboy Ed,

I suspect you disagree with me because you have not had the pleasure of working with some of the many horses that we have been blessed with the joy of conditioning and competing...

We have conditioned and competed many different bloodlines and in numbers enough to see multiple & significant trends. The idea of trends supports what you are saying about looking at the specific horse to know if IT has the stuff to succeed.

This point we agree on but what we see goes further then that ... if you look at the % of individual Paso's from certain bloodlines that can do exceptionally well at a certain task you will see trends not to be ignored.

The individual Paso that is really well suited for distance from certain lines will be the Minority and yet they will be the majority in other lines - WHY? Because the most important traits for success in distance are the norm in some lines and while you can find the same desired qualities in other bloodlines they are the exception in certain bloodlines... Now why would that be? Because the breeders of certain lines had different goals and focused on producing a better horse for the "task" they had in mind. And the goals of the breeders of some of our best known lines are/were very different!

I challenge you to consider that If you think they all take just as much work and one is as easy as the next you haven't found a Paso that is a true natural for the task yet!

Furthermore when you do get your hands on a natural …..I betcha you will not be getting back on a trotting horse for the serious miles again. And you will stop posting that if you really want to race you HAVE to buy an ARAB!

I suspect another reason for so much disagreement is that we are all talking in degrees - what is success in your eyes may not be significant to me and what I think qualifies as success may not mean much to the next guy.

From a breeders point of view... a breeder with 110% dedication to producing a Paso Fino that is better suited for certain tasks then the average Paso - I do know that research and bloodlines do make a difference and they do matter. We have a program that consistently produces what we set out to produce. And yet we continue to learn and improve! If your breeding and you can't say that then your program has some growing to do. If you are really a breeder at heart you will not be satisfied with mediocrity and you are always striving for improvement.

I will quantify what I consider success- what makes me confident that our program includes the lines best suited for the task we have chosen...

By Feather Hill Standards a horse well suited for a given "task" when well cared for in terms of health and conditioning will be able to perform that task its entire life. In this case it will be able to start a distance career at age 4 or 5 and still be racking up lifetime miles when in its 20's. It will not burn out and have a melt down after a few rides or a season or maybe two seasons at best.

One season wonders don't impress me much! Been there done that and so have you. Question is what did you learn from it? No doubt some of the same things most new people are going to have to learn if they start down this path and I am here to tell you if they have a certain type of horse over the average Paso they can skip a lot of the lessons we have already learned.


It’s clear there are posts on here from people who look to buy a horse and build it into a distance horse - and there are posts on here from a few breeders who want to consistently produce a horse better suited for this task then the average Paso.

Both parties can enjoy and realize their dream. No need to fight about it kids!

[B Hall]

I would like to say that I hope this discussion in no way takes away from Lindsay and Pocita's acomplishment!

They both paid their dues to get to this point. Lindsay did the research, she bred the horse, she conditioned her and took no short cuts in getting to this point in her distance career. Lindsay might not want me to post how long she has been conditioning and competing Paso Fino horses for distance but I will tell you this... Pocita is not the first nor the only horse Lindsay has a long record of success with and anybody who cares to will not find it a mystery to see the trends in bloodlines and type...

Pocita has over 600 lifetime miles and is young, fit in body and mind and I for one hope to see Pocita out here in 20 years still doin it!

[Mellifluous]

Time for my 2 cents with some questions.

Is there really enough hard data out there to prove that there are certain paso finos competing in endurance more successfully than others? I am talking about pasos that have entered both Endurance and LD rides and have records showing their accomplishments.

When I think about what I saw at the ride in Hahira, for the most part I saw a certain type of horse. The first thing I noticed was that the horses were lean, no heavy muscles. I noticed good bone with sizeable feet and nice deep chests. This goes along with what I have read about what makes a good endurance horse. I think a good head also goes a long way. Now, are Coral LaCE horses the only pasos out there that are long, lean and have good limbs and feet? No. I have seen many pasos out there that meet the base line physical requirement. In fact, Puerto Rican Pasos probably meet the lean and mean bill much more than many of the chunky little Colombian horses out there. It seems to me that Colombian horses have a lot of heart but many of them would suffer because of their heavy build. Maybe a half and half would be the way to go - Who knows. In the end you look at the horse in front of you, not the papers. Yes, there are breeders out there trying to breed for this type and for them this means Coral LaCE lines. But, there is a whole big world of pasos to choose from out there. Maybe there are people that want a little more spice to their mount and the Coral bred horses just don't have the spark they want. There are a whole list of reasons to keep options open when looking for an endurance mount. My personal opinion is that I would try to find a paso that is as close to an arab both physically and mentally (spirit and drive, not the nutty part) as possible. I feel that there are quite a few different lines of pasos that could produce this type of horse. There is a reason that Arabs have ruled the roost in the sport.

So I guess what I really want to say it this:

What we need are more people with pasos getting out there an competing! Arguing amongst ourselves about what bloodlines are better is not helping spread the word about our wonderful breed. I had quite a few people approach me about Phoebe at Hahira. They were asking me all sorts of questions. One of the biggest misconceptions I heard was that Pasos do not make good endurance mounts because they have to take a lot more steps than a "normal" horse and it tires them out more quickly. We need to get these people hooked on our funny little horses! They are curious about them and willing to listen.

[Mellifluous]

Oh, and just to add one more thing...

Ed's Big Al was perfect in the LD at Hahira. He never missed a beat, he was bright and perky during the whole ride. He pulsed down immediately at vet checks and passed them with flying colors. He had plenty of go left at the end of the ride. He is a natural.

[cowboy ed]

brenda, you wrote a book. i know lindsay and joe ed quite well. i have ridden with them the last several years. i am well aware of their accomplishments as they are of mine, and we mutually applaude and appreciate one another on every occasion we can.

your goals of breeding endurance paso finos are fine to pursue. but who's gonna ride them for you? or who is riding them for you? i notice that you dont have much endurance experience, according to the aerc website.

[Dave]

Not knowing squat about bloodlines, I can’t add anything to the debate. However, one thing that’s clear is finishing a 50-mile endurance ride is a huge accomplishment!

Congratulations and great story!!!

[Pam M]

I don't know much about bloodlines but Mel and Cowboy Ed, I'm counting on you guys to cheer me along because I'm in the process of conditioning my Plebeyo granddaughter for an LD. She's not much in the speed department but she seems to have some lasting power. We may not do much but at least we'll get another paso out there.

[motorgypsy]

One of our two endurance mares is a Plebeyo granddaughter. She's amazing! But we did have to put a heart monitor on her since she got pretty hypered up the first two rides.

[Pam M]

That would be Chinook, right? I've admired her for a long time. That's good to know about the heart monitor though Pia doesn't really get too hyped up. She's more the nervous/spooky type.

[motorgypsy]

The one and only!! ;-) ;-) She say s thanks!! In many ways Lula is a better endurance horse because she tells me when she's tired and doesn't get wired but Chinook is just so much fun to ride! She's out of shape though since we've been so busy recently. Can't wait to get back to riding more!!!

Who are the parents of your Plebeyo granddaughter? Chinook's mom is a PPR mare and her dad is Tomba Alegre. I think she moves and looks more like Plebeyo than either parent though.

[Boothkin]

Congratulations Lindsay and Pocita!


"Maybe there are people that want a little more spice to their mount and the Coral bred horses just don't have the spark they want."

I've enjoyed following this thread because of my fondness for the Coral-bred horses. I originally became interested in the line because of what I was learning about their accurate gait and fine dispositions. I also wanted a sane trail mount. When I decided this was the kind of paso I wanted, I went straight to two of the best sources, Barb Preiss and her cousin Michele Leonard. Granted, my three Coral boys have the grand man up close in their pedigrees plus the best old PPR blood through their dams, so I can attest to their great ways of going and the temperaments of all three.

In regards to wanting "more spice" though, my new boy Marcar de
Santa Cruz, a Coral grandson on the top, is probably about as spicy as I'd (and I think most people) ever want. He is a perfect gentleman, pushbutton responsive, catlike and FAST (ask Sandy - she's seen him ridden). This boy likes to go, wants to go, gives his all and them some. Not surprising, he has a smokin' largo too. He is also conformationally made for distance riding. Will we ever participate in an endurance/ctr ride? I'm sure he'd like it but I'm not sure I'm cut out for it. I bought him because of his wonderful nature, his attitude on the trail and the fact that when I went to Barb's to pick out a mare, Marc wouldn't stop hugging my daughter Ariel. Then I rode him ( and this is after already riding two great mares earlier in the day) and he was so much fun and the decision was made.

Marc is my current trail mount because my trusty Burlon (Coral/PR/Cantante de Omega) is in rehabilitation following a bad stifle tear from last year. Now you'd think Burlon would be one hot tamale but he's my easygoing-take-him-anywhere boy. Nothing phases him but, at 13.2 hands, he can outstride the much bigger boys. He's my relaxing ride.

My last Coral-bred is a John Henry son out of a mare who is PR and Plebeyo lines. He's just a yearling but he's showing a huge range of gait - from very short and quick to great extension. He's also very athletic and tall. I think he's going to be a smooth ride and he has a naturally sweet disposition. We call him Ziggy (as in Marley) because of his unusually long curly mane and tail.

Now I have to admit that I love all my horses, pasos and trotters. I have a sin Par colt Tambolero that is just starting his show career, and the world is his oyster. We shall see what he can do. But if you want to talk a really great horse for endurance, I've got a racing bred 15 y.o. Arab mare that I rescued three years ago, that I believe would outdo any of my other horses (except Marc). She's got great bone and feet and a mind as good as the best paso's. If only she gaited!

[motorgypsy]

Is Marcar de Santa Cruz by any chance related to our endurance mare, Primavera de Santa Cruz? She is hot enough but very sane. Chinook is probably hotter by nature than she is.

[B Hall]

Welcome Boothkin! Great post too.

[Cindy]

Hey Boothkin, I trained Marcar. He is a very good distance candidate. Very strong and lots of stamina. MGs, Marc is from Coral de Vez out of the same mare as Tsar.

[Mellifluous]

I don't know much about bloodlines but Mel and Cowboy Ed, I'm counting on you guys to cheer me along because I'm in the process of conditioning my Plebeyo granddaughter for an LD. She's not much in the speed department but she seems to have some lasting power. We may not do much but at least we'll get another paso out there.


Got a first ride in mind yet????

[B Hall]

Cowboy Ed,

Ever heard of a little north east regional organizations called ECTRA? Apparently not. Ed if you are questioning my qualifications, experience or honesty I can not respond in less then a "book" and then the answer will be incomplete....

And of course with about 80 horses here no I can not ride them all and don't have the ego that drives me to be the only one to ride them. I have a passion for the breed and the sport and the only way to build on something this important to me is to get as many people out there on Paso's that we possibly can. We have been adding to the ranks of people interested in trying distance with a Paso Fino Horse and for about 10 yrs.

Horses that we breed rarely make it to training age before they are sold and many of the owners buying our babies are working on preparing for distance, If I try to name them all I will certainly forget someone but we are proud to say that two geldings went to MD to an owner with plans for distance riding and this owner mentored with us and rode Esperanza in a 50 CTR and Miranda in a 25 CTR.

Miranda did both CTR and END and she had at least two different riders I can think of and no I never did have time to ride her myself! Miranda sold to Canada to a lady who is interested in Endurance.

We have two ladies boarding here who are interested in distance on their Paso Finos and have been conditioning for future rides. We have been helping them both with conditioning programs and they are learning about Heart Rates and will be on the distance trail eventually.

A Mito x Carlita filly was sold to a lady planning to do distance when the filly is old enough.

A Mito x Carlita son is in NJ standing on a farm with a long history of CTR and END success. This lady mentors more new distance riders then we do and she is just recently bitten by the Paso Fino bug. Her other stallion is an Appy and she has been competing for years with other breeds. She can't say enough about her Mito son who is just turning 3 and will hit the distance trail when old enough.

A Mito x Carlita son went to the north east to another lady who is planning to start out in CTR.

We are currently working with a lady who purchased a Mito x Melissa son when he was a weanling. He is now 5 and she is studying the rules for our regional CTR group and has been trailering her horse three hours one way to ride conditioning rides with me to get some help on where he is in her goals for him to do his first CTR in the spring. In fact when she was here last weekend she purchased her third Paso Fino from us.....She also has a friend who doesn’t' have a Paso yet but is also going to do her first CTR ride in the spring and hopefully a Paso will not be far behind...

Esperanza earned her PFHA high point CTR award in between foals with me only riding her twice - one 30 and one ride an 80 miler! She had no less then three riders in addition to me for the miles she earned. She has a lot of CTR but she also has LD and END. I beleive I also rode her a following season in some LD rides....In the process she started no less then three novice riders in the sport of distance. One of them my sister who has almost as many ctr and end miles as I do and who has also ridden clients horses for them for both conditioning and for their first distance rides thru our distance mentoring program.

A gelding we re-trained and conditioned, Medallion also earned a PFHA High Point CTR award - I was the only fool crazy enough to ride this horse so all his miles are also my miles...

We did some training on a Morgan for a Ride Manager of a popular ride in MD and in the process her sister got hooked on a Paso and has one of our babies she has yet to compete in CTR but she has been doing the conditioning and has done several judged rides. He continues to build on the Paso Fino fan club everywhere he goes.

Another of our broodmares, Mercedez managed to fit some conditioning in between foals and completed some CTR with one of our staff members riding her. Yet another novice rider bitten by not only the Paso Fino bug but the distance bug!

Twisted our Columbian trainers arm into putting on a helmet and riding our palomino stallion Mito in his first CTR. Both the horse and the rider liked it all but the helmet which may have brought his manhood into question...

I am not sure if my husband ever gets to do two rides on the same horse... I can think of Gordon competing our gray stallion Nickleback, Miranda, and Esperanza.... I am sure I am missing someone

Our most recent mentor and possibly the one I am the most excited about is a youth rider who started riding at our stable when she was 6 and who started conditioning for us two years ago. She turned 14 in August and started to compete horses for us this past summer. She regularly conditions two of our stallions Brisco de Pluma and Nickleback but of course due to her age she can not compete them until she turns 18 so she has been competing Corina de Pluma a Mi Sueno x Esperanza daughter who just turned 5 herself. After Corina weaned her first foal early this summer Callie completed a 25 and a 30 ctr and a 30 LD on Corina. Recently I actually got to ride this mare myself in a 30 LD. Both Callie and Corina have a long and exciting future ahead of them!

Most recently while Callie is competing Corina I have been competing our pinto Paso Stallion Brisco de Pluma who has three ctrs and one LD this summer. Brisco is also just 5 yrs old. This past weekend Brisco introduced a childhood school mate I have not ridden with for 23 yrs to the Paso Fino Ride and she is now interested in trying distance as well!

Multiple folks with Paso mares have already bred the mares to our stallions and planning the foals will be active in distance as well.

Joanne and Laura will hang me out to dry if I forget to mention they also have plans to try some distance with Inca and Mirage two fillies that were bred and born here...

And Lee Ann who just purchased one of our broodmares and is actively conditioning for CTR and Endurance rides that are planned for their future. Lee Ann is an experienced distance rider who was recently bitten by the Paso Fino bug after running into two of our babies who are owned by long distance pleasure riders boarding at a stable in the northeast where Lee Ann temporarily boarded her QH.

Anybody I forgot who wants to be included just email me! I did not mean to leave anybody out but 10 yrs of recruites and I will surely leave someone out!

Brenda Hall
Feather Hill Training Facility
www.featherhills.com

[Candice Burger]

Mel, you cannot expect accurate metrics for a statistical based assessement until the metrics are set first. This is arbitrary but there should be some analytical/mathematical definition placed.

Translation: There aren't enough pasos competing from different bloodlines to make a statement of any kind at this time. And as you mentioned, performance is probably more related to "type" than a particular bloodline. In addition, the Coral horses, Favorito horses, Hilachas horses have been purposefully targeting specific markets for profitable sales as has Capuchino, Plebeyo, etc.

When subjective bias is introduced then the bias must be statistical removed to provide reasonable accuracy.

Translation: Marketing and advertising biases the buyer, his purchases, and his activities. It would be better ground truthing to take experienced endurance riders with NO knowledge of bloodlines or marketing schemes and have them visit a randomly selected group of farms across the country and other countries. Let them select horses based on what they believe are endurance candidates.

Fads are created out of marketing needs NOT because there is factual data supporting that a certain bloodline performs best for certain activities. Those who make claims about paso fino bloodlines that are particularly suited for a particular task cannot provide any data supporting this claim. To point to what? maybe a dozen horses out of the entire population of pasos is very poor statistics. The very SAME statistical method or lack thereof used by show barns claiming stakes to a "champion" producer. I'd HATE to have Capuchino's statistics posted! Shame to see the same biasing outside the show arena as inside the show arena.

Up until about 15 years ago, paso finos were bred to be good pasos. Stamina is a key trait for a good paso. I betcha many didn't know that a paso trainer would take a colt out on the trails and if the horse didn't have the endurance to work all day, he'd call the owner up and tell him to pick it up that it wasn't any good. This for show preparation. And this wasn't a walk in the park trail riding either.

So, to divide out traits thinking that helps a breeding program whether for show or trail, not only biases but also ignores key paso traits that makes the horse a successful candidate no matter the task.

[Candice Burger]

Off the soap box.

This is digging way deep into my memory banks, but I recall reading an article in Horse & Rider about 25 years ago (been a closet fan of endurance riding a LONG time, too bad too chicken to try). This article highlighted an Arabian breeder whose horses did particularly well in the 100-mile endurance races and won several TEVIS cups.

The breeder didn't have anything fancy in his horses. He wasn't breeding specifically for endurance nor for the show ring. Good solid animals with good Arab traits. He bred working Arabs for his ranch. Most of the geldings were marketed for sale. Just so happened a few folks getting into endurance bought his horses and won and continued to win. Well, you know how that goes. More endurance riders started buying more of these horses and they won too!

What burned this article into my brain and I still use this for sobering me up when I catch myself critiqueing an animal was the horses were NOT ideal for endurance competition! Smallish, narrow-chested, rather angular looking things. I remember the pics of the horses in the article. Pretty mundane looking Arab; nothing special at all. BUT, they had ALL the Arab characteristics of their ancestory and they could GO all day! And why not? The ranch needed hard wearing horses that could work all day. The horses were bred for that.

Breed pasos for what they are meant to be first. Pasos are as hard wearing and hard working as the Arab. They aren't specially designed for endurance nor for show. They are designed to live long on poor nutrition and still work all day.

[B Hall]

Is there really enough hard data out there to prove that there are certain paso finos competing in endurance more successfully than others? I am talking about pasos that have entered both Endurance and LD rides and have records showing their accomplishments.



Just Mel ,

The Paso is fairly new to a sport long dominated by the Arab. The sport will always be dominated by the Arab but other breeds like the Morgan, and Appy have small groups of die hard breed supporters who are driven to prove their breed can also be competitive. There is an even smaller group of Paso Fino owners over the years who have competed... more owners with one horse here and there - usually not breeders...

Its not easy to find all the history because of the different sanctioning organizations and some of them have records that are very hard to access or have changed record keeping methods since their origin making only part of the records availalbe....and so we have probably missed a few in our efforts but there are a couple of us who have kind of made it our mission to seek out any Paso owner who is either doing distance or who is interested in doing distance and encourage them in any way we can and to collect data on who is doing what or has done what.

For example AERC has 113 Paso's on their records. Some of these Paso's cross over into regional groups rides for additional miles and some have regional miles that have no AERC record. Its a task and one that will not be finished but rather an ongoing project.

The data is not extensive but there are already some trends that I for one beleive will only become stronger over the years as more and more Paso's enter the sport. I am content to enjoy watching the Paso Fino expand into the field of distance riding. It has been a fun ride so far and I am determined to enjoy it till the end (of my natural life that is) ;-)

If anybody in this thread has actually said that a particular bloodline is the ONLY one that can do it - I missed that post - I did not say that and I don't think anybody else has said that. I know I have not even named any bloodlines at all. I read this that some of us beleive that while any Paso (any horse for that matter) can acheive some level of success in this sport - certain Paso's will more consistantly excel at the same sport over other types of Paso's. The type to excell does tend to be noticeablly more common in certain lines over other lines....

Another issue adding to the debade and as several of the posts in this thread reveal - people who have not actually gotten their feet wet in the sport seem to have some misconceptions about what even makes for a good distance prospect.

It is certainly something we can study and continue to learn from as we build the history of the Paso Fino in the sport of distance.

[cowboy ed]

hi brenda, yes, i have heard of ECTRA.

and i did see where your unos esperanza completed 7 out of 8 AERC rides with 170 miles in LD and one 55 mile endurance ride.

and no, you didnt say that certain bloodlines are the ONLY bloodlines that can do distance riding, but i have heard some other people say it before. its ok for you to believe that certain bloodlines within the breed can excel at distance riding while other bloodlines do not, but i will continue to heartily disagree with you and leave it at that.

[Laura S]

Here is a pic of Mirage and I pretending we are in a LD ride (just practicing and having fun right now)! That is us passing everyone on the outside. And she doesn't have shoes on!!!! But that could be a whole other topic. :shock:
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h51/LauraS39/MirageLD.jpg

[Barbwire]

That looks like the trail behind Bobby and Micheal's, is it?

[Laura S]

Yes, that was from the Columbus Day weekend there. We all had a blast! And somebody that was there just sent me a pic of Juan riding Mirage. :lol: I don't think anybody got any can shots for ya though!

[Barbwire]

I don't think anybody got any can shots for ya though!

That just sticks in my craw! :lol:

[B Hall]

Whats with everybodys craw anyway? :lol:

Mirage sure looks good for a deadbeat "CL" horse if I have to say so myself! ;-) Hummmmm wonder why you passed them....

i did see where your unos esperanza completed 7 out of 8 AERC rides with 170 miles in LD and one 55 mile endurance ride

Esperanza has 543 miles. First ride completed 6 weeks after weaning a foal and last ride an 80 with a 4th place finish was completed 8 months before the next foal was born. Not to shabby for a 12 yr old mare that has been bred 8 times since she was three...

[Laura S]

Hummmmm wonder why you passed them....



She likes to go!!!!

[cowboy ed]

aerc miles, brenda? i'm not talking about ectra........ ;-)

also, in the aerc records, you have 100 miles in endurance and 170 in LD, completing 8 out of 13 rides.

www.aerc.org on the home page, click on rider history or horse history, type the name in the appropriate box, and it will give you the records.

[motorgypsy]

I don't know why Ed but they don't have all of our miles. I can't remember if it's me or the horse they are missing but I've done Pryamid, Liberty twice, Hallelujah twice or maybe three times, Dawson Forest, and Moonlight and they don't have them all. Chinook completed all but 1 because she overtimed when we got lost and did a long loop twice. That was rider error. I pulled Lula twice so she finished one. She vetted through in all three but the moonlight ride was dangerous - along side of the road with deep grass and oncoming cars and We lost a boot at Dawson Forest and couldn't find a replacement and there was sucking mud that couldn't be avoided so I pulled her then also. She was fit and ready to go but I wasn't pleased at all with the conditions. So the point is, their mileage records are not accurate.