Rule Changes

[George Marlow]

Just wanted to get your input on the "J" tail rule changes".

Actually the post should have been regarding "alteration" rule changes.

Bottom line, it's currently against the rules!!!!!!!!! For those who perform
or have this procedure performed or own a horse with an altered tail and
knowingly enter into a show

You are breaking the rules

What rule will you break next ?????

Really appreciate the Mr. -Nito it a least shows some respect for humans,
your opinions in IMHO do not show respect for horse or the PFHA rules.

In a tolerant mode I think a compromise in not changing the rule and informing
the Paso community the existing rule will be in full force from
a given date forward and grandfathering horses with currently altered
tails(picture verification to the PFHA by a certain date) severe penalty
for attempting to perform the procdure during the verification (suspension).

As I thought 3 categories:
1. Some get it
2. Some don't
3. Some have no clue!
you pick

What a hoot thanks everyone for your input.
and "Viva la Naturalle"(sp)

Cordially
George

[CarolU]

Here is my opinon....

http://www.gaitedhorses.net/GaitedHorsesForum/smilies/curse.gif

1) that if they are not going to follow the current rule about no altered tails, then they need to vote FOR what is in the rule changes throughout and get rid of any/every reference to this breed being 'natural' and having a 'natural appearence.'

2) that it is ludicrous to penalize all the thousands of owners of REAL natural Paso Finos because of the actions of a few. The rest of us DO have natural horses and RESENT being type-cast by the horse world because some people are such a-holes.

3) they should enforce and STRENGTHEN the current rule. BAN FOR LIFE any horse that is surgically altered and BAN FOR LIFE the trianer who did it.

This is JMHO...but it is a disgusting ugly not so 'secret' in our breed that we are ALL tainted by. Looking the other way and ignoring it, is the same as condoning it.

So if they are going to continue to do so, then at least be honest about it - and get rid of the word "NATURAL" as it associated with this breed.

[Pasogirlz]

George-Does anyone know what the changes are they have proposed to the current rule? Or are you getting ideas of things to suggest? Or just wondering what ppl think of the current rule?

[Nito]

I dont think they will ever ban it . Some horses have it natural some dont. Some you could tell they had the procedure done and others you will never know that they had it done.

I personally would do this procedure to my stallion. It makes them look more elegant. Its what breeders like to do and have been doing for the past years and will continue to do so.

So its clearly impossible to stop everyone from doing this. Its like coming up on a law that prohibits women to have breast implants because its cruel.

[motorgypsy]

Nito your analogy would only be valid if the woman's husband or father or mother forced her to have the breast implants. The horse does not make the decision.

Try taking some newbies to the breed to the paso fino horse shows and see what they say about the aritificial tails. We do it all the time and here's what they say "WHAT IN THE WORLD IS WRONG WITH THAT HORSE'S TAIL? IT LOOKS SO WEIRD???" A flag tail that is natural and we have several like that naturally is fine but the aritificially enhanced J looks plain dorky. While we're fixing the tail we may as well take a nice little tuck in the throatlatch, make that roman nose a little less Roman, and maybe the eyes should be a little larger - ya think? If you want a tail llike that, buy or breed the real thing. There are plenty of them out there.

[Ginger]

Nito, if you're ugly, you should have surgery, then, to fix that before you compete in a show ring. Your hypothetical ugliness could detract from your horse's appearance.
:D

[CarolU]

I disagree. I think a vet can tell if ahorse has scar tissue on the tail where it was cut. I think most people can tell, to be perfectly honest and it is just an excuse to ignor the rule. I remember a person here on the BB telling me of a mare they bought with a dorked up tail. They wanted to fix it so it looked right. They took it to the vet. The mare's tail and been cut five (5) times before!!! Apparently the first one was the doozer.

If you want to make your horse look like a cheerleader with a pom pom behind, that is your business. Just don't call it "Natural" because other people believe our horses are BORN looking retarded and won't buy them. If you want another show association for 'altered' horses where all alterations are legal, go for it.

I have been told by horsemen all over - and I do travel all over - that the horses with their tails dorked up look "embarassed." I imagine they are.

[stella]

I 100% agree with you, Carol. And yes, it DOES look "embarassed," hadda smile at that analogy! Its the tail position taken by wimpier horses when they "tailclamp".
There are really relatively few horses that I've ever seen in the over 30 years I've been in the breed, that put their tail in that position naturally, and Ive never seen one that can hold the position any extended length of time, much less permanently, that hasnt had the "operation."

Most vets will not do this, which should tell people something; and in most states, someone other than a licensed vet performing surgery is illegal. Why owners continue to participate in whats usually an illegal act(is winning THAT important?), or the assn turning their backs on it, is difficult for me to understand. Its a big hypocritical shame in our breed, unfortunately.

[sporthorse]

I think the way to solve this is to have a the same procedure or some alteration of any judge's body,backbone that places a horse with any of these done tails.
Of course this cannot be done because the judges that place a horse like that has no spine or backbone and in that case it would be moot.
Painting them red by PETA/FOSH or yellow for thier cowardness may work but that would be terrorism and in a police state that would be met with harsh penalty.
well I guess I was no help.Just a real shame I feel for my fellow humans they will have to answer someday!
I am as bad in some respects from someone point of view so I should not throw stone from my glass house since the world i live in has me cracked up or at least my rose colored glasses are shattered I guessI am allowed to cast a stone for the sake of horse's protector of his rearend.

[SandyMM]

The cut tails remind me of Afghan hound tails - great on the dogs, really bad on horses....

[PASOFAN]

I think it is a terrible thing. Carol you have lots of good points... I am all for the natural way and cutting tails is not natural at all.. In fact it really disgusts me...

I am repeating myself alot: Love your horses for what they are....

[Brigitte]

I've gotten used to seeing horses with tails who have been cut, and because of this I think that I can't imagine horses without their J tails, in fact I think a horse without a J tail looks ugly, for me it adds to the elegance. And I think the procedure is horrible, having them cut the tail and all to make it look like that. I'm in the middle of it, thinking it's terrible to cut the horses just to make them look nice with their tail but at the same time liking how they look.
And me thinking like that is mainly because I've grown up with Paso Finos because that's the only type of horses we have here. Many of you grew up with other horses then learned about Paso Finos so it's different for you guys about their tails and all.

[CarolU]

That's OK Brigette. What they do with these horses in other countries are really their business. The problem is that they are in the US and competing agianst "normal" looking horses. Because it is against the rules right now, owners and trainers deny doing it, and insist the horse is natural.

THAT is where the problem is. People hear that and think it true and won't buy Paso Finos, not to mention laugh at the breed. It is quite common here to hear that the horses are tailclamping because they are submissive or beaten into submission (like a kicked dog).

I don't think many people who grew up in the breed realize how 'absurd' it looks to other horsemen. I know I would never have bought a Paso Fino if I had seen that tail and been told it was 'natural.' I am glad to live in the west were very few horses have been altered.

[El Indio Elegante]

I think that is some ways it is cruelty to the horses but i don't think it looks bad. I mean i'm worried that my new horse isn't going to look as good in the show ring b/c he doesn't have a j tail. I guess i'm sorta neutral in the matter. I will never have it done to a horse but if i buy one that already has it i wouldn't mind it one bit.

[Nito]

To tell you the truth MOSTLY all horses here in Miami have thier tails done AND they dont look bad. I seriously dont know which fool is doing your tails where you are located that makes them look retarded.

and its not as 'disgusting' 'terrible' as you make it seem. Its like having a dentist pull out your tooth. 'They' inject the anesthesia and make the small cut. WHICH MEANS the horse only feels pain when they INJECT it. BIG DEAL. Its up to the owner if he wants the surgical procedure done.

miami's show is this weekend. i'll be sure to take pictures so you'll be able to see our horses tails.

gingerponi - very funny. maybe you should consider a similar operation.

[Tracey]

As someone not 'into' the breed, I only own one, do not show, and have no interest in it. I do watch the shows on TV and have seen some demos' at equine affair type shows. To me the horses with the scorpion looking tails look freakish, totally unnatural. The horses that naturally pick up their tail when working look great. And, since I ride my paso with a ton of tw almost everyweekend in the spring and fall, the second question I get all the time is 'what is up with those tails, they are gross' the first being 'who would want a horse that goes no where?'. Most will never even consider a paso because of the tails and they think they don't move. They are shocked to find out mine is one.
Anyway, I can see where they look normal to one who has grown up looking at them, but you have to realize 99.5 percent of the population does not see them everyday.

[CarolU]

and its not as 'disgusting' 'terrible' as you make it seem. Its like having a dentist pull out your tooth. 'They' inject the anesthesia and make the small cut. WHICH MEANS the horse only feels pain when they INJECT it. BIG DEAL. Its up to the owner if he wants the surgical procedure done.



Nito...

1) it is RARELY done by a verternarian with anesthesia.. Usually done by a trainer who goes around from farm to farm..no anesthisia, sterile instruements, nothing. Just a knife, maybe some betadine.

2) It most certainly IS disgusting and terrible. I have been to Nationals and seen PLENTY of botched tail jobs...that look horrible, the tail curved off to the side or almost around on itself.

3) It is not a little cut. A TENDON is severed. Try it on your hand and see how it feels before you assume it doesn't hurt the horse.

4) Be careful before you post ANY pictures of botched tails here (which is what precludes anyone from posting bad examples). You can be held legally liable and/or brought up on an ethics violation for saying bad things about any horse, owner or trainer. So....be VERY careful.

Yes..it is a mater of personal 'taste' if someone likes it or not. But if a horse is so altered it is no longer a "natural appearence," has had a surgical procedure, and is in violation of our current rules. If you like surgery and curly tails, vote for the rule change. They'll be legal then.

I am sure it will be a very lively BOD meeting. Glad I'll be there.

[Ginger]

Well, there's one growing up to be like all the rest of 'em.

[motorgypsy]

Our feeling is - if you have a problem with appearance, fix yourself the way you wish but don't force another person or animal to alter their appearance to suit you.

[Pasogirlz]

From what I can tell from reading the rule change proposal...they want to eleminate the verbage that refers to the naturalness of tails since the rule is not being inforced consistently, and they feel it's better to remove it than only hold certain individuals responsible for breaking the rule while others go uncited. I have to agree w/this since they are not being enforced at all, I would rather not see an issue come of someone being disqualified over it, while others are not being repremanded.

The original question was how do you feel about the rule change...not about tails being done in general or if it is right or not. We can all agree or disagree about that on another day. ;-)

[Ginger]

You know, Lori, you really need an eyelash-batting, boob-wiggling emoticon during discussions like these, LOL. :razz:

[Serendipity]

think of its this way in Paints they will have the eye lids tatooed because they don'y like the pink eye lid.I understand freeze branding and lip tatoos as a way to ID a horse.but changing its appearance I don't believe in
but with that said look what we do to dogs crop the ears and dock the tail and in some breeds these must be done to show.
Why is it that when you go to a show even if you have a cut tail why do you tye the tail to the saddle? This to me also looks cruel and I would never do and I do show.
But to me a cut tail that never relaxes looks stupid and I've been in Pasos for 10yr and don't not buy a horse that could not relax its tail sorry thats just my option plus I will never tie a tail to the side of a saddle.

[Abejita]

I do not have all the proposals in front of me, just a summary from our Regional meeting
Proposals to:
Constitutuion Changes
"Change breed standard to delete the word alteration in the standard which reads as follows- "Mane, tail and forelock are as long full and luxurious as nature can provide. no artificial additions or alterations are allowed."

In our discussion, many people (including me ) have a problem with this BECAUSE if you delete it now it opens the door for an even worse problem..deadening the tail so they cannot swish.The right way would be to leave it for now , and next round propose a rule change that would prohibit that .Wording would have to be very explicit. And a program would have to be in place to test for it..and it would cost us all more money because we would have to hire people to test..

This is also under Rule changes
" 2 changes to delete rules relating to 'artificially changing the appearance of a horse", 'Tail alteration" and "altering its natural conformation or appearance" Rational is to delete rules not being enforced.

You must also take into account that on many of these proposed changes, the PFHA discussed it with their lawyers.Most times the lawyers said that the rules as they are currently written are not enforcable . Think how vague they are..they are open to interpretation..

Also think, if you as a member, especially a showing member, are willing to pay a lot more.If they want to enforce the rule it would take liscensed vets (probably more than one so there was a concensus) and time to test each horse.And you would have to continue testing because if you got a 'uncut' status, you could go get cut before the next show.Who's gonna eat that cost?

It comes down to the fact that you cannot legislate morality as a Mason Dixon Member pointed out at the meeting. And he's right.We may not agree with cutting the tails, we may despise it.Others may not think anything about it. But this is America and to a point we are free to do what we want. We ARE fre to THINK what we want...

[Abejita]

The idea of tying the tail is to keep them from swishing it I think.

[CarolU]

The rule change proposal essentailly states that since the rule is not enforced, it should be done away with.

BUT, if you do away with the rule against tails, you must also get rid of the rules against surgically changing the looks of the horse, you must also delete all references to 'naturalness of the breed', etc., throughout the rule book, because they are all related.

It is not just ONE rule change. I will have to count, but I think there are something like five references to the horses being natural that also have to be changed.

So, it's not 'just' about being for or against this rule change proposal - taken together they get rid of every reference to 'natural' out of the rule book - as it must be if we allow surgical alterations to the tail - regardless of if you like them or not.

[Suezette Rodriguez]

Abejita That Is True they keep the horses tail tied to the side to keep the horses tail from Swiching !! I think the Horses look great with there tails done ! and its true Down here In miami Almost all the horses have there tail done and i havent seen a CHAMPION or GOOD Horse with out there tail done ! In my Opion IT makes a Horse look more Elegant !


Suezette Rodriguez

[Ginger]

I don't like any sort of surgical alterings either, Serendipity, not on dogs, horses, anything. I think it's just as bad on humans, but at least a human can say "this is my body- I want this done, and I will allow it done"- even if they aren't smart enough to see that for every one thing they do to themselves, someone else will point out a few more things to work on, thus creating a losing battle. Animals can't say "No, don't do that"- nor can human children for something as trivial as ear-piercing. When did women start having their children's ears pierced at three months of age? Why not let them grow up and THEN make the choice whether or not they wanted them? A bit of a tangent, but it's the same thing- if we can control it, we will, rather than just alter our way of thinking about what's realistic or beautiful the way it is.

[Nito]

I've seen this procedure. no HUGE cut. about a inch and a half incision. had it done to my fino mare last summer!! I'll see if I find the pictures I took of the procedure! and yes with anesthesia!

and Carol im not going to post pictures to critisize the owners for it. Since I am for this procedure. It'll be nice if others saw the tails so they can educate themselves on this topic.

Thanks Abejita, you really hit the nail there!

and gingerponi - and what? who gives a crap if im another tail chopping hispanic.

[Abejita]

well I have to say this too..I know someone who was new into the breed a few years ago..they had a nice little pleasure gelding that was doing really good..they were told at a show ..by a judge.."you could win at Nationals if you had his tail done" So they found out what that meant (they had no idea) and had his tail done. Afterwards (quite awhile after) a friend said to them ..You know that technically ,thats illegal? They had no idea..Heck a JUDGE told them to do it.Why would they ever have thought it was illegal? Now THAT was not right.And I dont want to hear "they should have reported the judge" Yeah ..but by that time they also had broken a rule and gee what if the PFHA thought..hmm lets make an example..and they also thought that at the least from that point of (if they had reported them) they would never win again..I am not saying they were wrong or right..just stating the facts..

[Nito]

That what I was first trying to say. That no matter if its illegal it will still be going on because its like a tradition to the breed! the tail alternating have been going on since probably before Resorte III. In the video paso pedigree has of him you can clearly see he had his tail done.

a perfect example of the same issue is drugs. illegal. but there is still away to get them and do it. its a never ending battle.

[Ginger]

Why is it that you women won't get special surgeries to look like David Castro? He wins with whatever he puts his cute little brown @$$ on, and I don't see you flocking to the clinics for that look. Instead you're lazy, and just want your horse to get all the work done.

Aren't you overlooking the fact that the altered-tail-champion might possess actual talent that's carrying him that far, instead of his cosmetic alteration? On the other hand, politics plays a big deal, too, so why don't you start sleeping around with some trainers (if you haven't already- you never know) and influential people in the business, and maybe you could win, too?

Nito- who gives a crap..? I do. I care if you grow up to be a guy who's compassionate about horses. How you treat your horses reflects on how you'll treat the humans in your life, too. If I recall, you're the one who think Capuchino looks absolutely stunning as a brown coat-rack, so I hope your vision has improved somewhat.

But, I don't care enough about you to stress whether or not your trick-tailed temblor wannabe uses your head for a fino board, so I'll just leave this all at that.

(You all knew I was being too nice- yet you stil put these little triggers out, LOL. I promise, I'm done on this thread- I gotta run and try to figure out a samba box!)

[Serendipity]

If its to stop the tail swishing I thing that is wrong also personaly a horse swishes a tail for 2 reason mostly pain and frustation(and bugs)I lot of champions do have ther tails done but not all A Cappella's Carisma who won Performance 2 times at does not have his tail done

[SandyMM]

In our discussion, many people (including me ) have a problem with this BECAUSE if you delete it now it opens the door for an even worse problem..deadening the tail so they cannot swish.
True - once you eliminate 'alteration' you have opened a Pandora's Box to _any_ alteration...... Maybe some people will do something to stop a horse from lip-flapping or being physically able to extend past a 4" step...

This is also under Rule changes
" 2 changes to delete rules relating to 'artificially changing the appearance of a horse", 'Tail alteration" and "altering its natural conformation or appearance" Rational is to delete rules not being enforced.

Great - make all the rules you want to protect the breed, but as long as judges don't enforce them (and who else can in the show ring? People don't cut tails for trail horses), that opens the door for tossing the rulles based on non-enforcement....

More and more I'm thinking there's a place and a need for a separate Paso association for certified natural Pasos... There are plenty of breeders who breed for and promote naturalness....

[Nito]

first of all Poni it shows how much of an ignorant person you are. Thats the problem with people like you. The only reason why David Castro wins is because the FAMOUS professional trainers are going to get thier hand on any GOOD horse with good expectations in the show ring. Second David Castro has barely gone into the show ring to show horses how he did before. If you have a good horse and you want it to go into training who are you going to pay to ride him? A- the guy who doesnt train any good horse or B- the guy who has nothing but champions in his farm ?

I dont get my *** on a horse because I dont know how to train a horse for the show ring with out fucking up its mouth and its gait and so on.

ALSO How would you know how I treat my horses ? Have you even seen one of my horses and how I am with them for you to talk like that about me?

Where did I ever say anything about Capuchino and brown coat rack. And if I recall I have never spoken to you.

[Cindy]

I had thought about posting in this thread to correct some of the misinformation that is being thrown around. But it has become much too amusing to mess with. Kinda like watching a train wreck about to happen. I think I'll just sit back and watch this time.

[El Indio Elegante]

Nito i have to agree with u as far as a tradition to the breed. Think of this there are some breeds who will put pepper up there butt so they will stick there tails up. Also look at Saddlebreds and Tennesee walkers, the show horses usually have funky looking tails as well that go straight up and then back down. Then look at draft breeds many of the show horses have there tails docked. Actually as far as the saddlebreds, tennesee walkers, and paso finos pasos are the most natural. I mean look at those hidious and cruel weights i mean at least our horses are natural in there feet. At least we keep the pasos manes long and luxurious unlike a Qh. I went to a 4h meeting one time and the showed us how to do a western/ english horses mane. They aren't even completley natural but with them it is just hair.

Look up at are logo for American Paso Finos. The horse has a J tail. Wherever u go the paso fino is known to have the tail. Even the stuff PFHA sells, all the horses have J tails

And yes the tail tyed to the side of the saddle is used so the horse does not swish it's tail just as Suezette said. i've done it with Indio many times but unfortunately it never stopped him . He always did it whenever i kicked him or changed speed

[El Indio Elegante]

i do have to say though When i went to Puerto Rico for the Youth Mundial we were point blank told the americans wouldn't win anything unless the American judge was in there

[ASB.Immortality]

Ok, I have seen the Pasos with & without the "J" tail. I (personally) love the look of a "J" tail. A straight tail just doesn't look right to me in the show ring. They almost look odd & out of place. But I am from a place where almost all the horse have a set tail of some kind. The National Racking horses wear their humane tail braces (those can be REALLY tacky, especially when you see one that has been put on wrong, it makes their real tail look there is something hanging out their butt & the tail is coming out of the top of it), Chain Racking & Walking wears the kind that of brace that resembles a tail crupper but attaches to the saddle, the Saddlebreds wear a brace. The only ones that don't wear anything are the Breeder Racking Horses (even though their tails are cut & they wear tailsets).

Can someone explain to me the exact procedure of what is done to make their tails do that? What the aftercare is? What kind of items are used to keep that appearance, etc?

I know that lots of Saddlebred folks cut tails. I love a set tail, but not all horses have to have their tails cut to do that. Some horses just have a naturally loose tail that takes to a tail set well. I have had two that never had to have their tails cut. The others were bought with them already done. One exception was my 16 year old that passed away. His tail had been broken, we were told it was an accident in the stall, but he came from the time of the old days also. More than likely broken to be set.

In short terms, here is what is done to get a set tail:
The vet will nick the ligament on the underside of the tail that allows the horse to clamp their tail down. It's not severed, just nicked. Then, when the tail is put in the crupper, the ligament stretches and heals in an elongated form. They can still clamp their tail if they really try hard enough but not as tight as they could otherwise, can still swish it, etc. Some vets will also nick the ligament up at the breakover to help with that part, but it's not necessary unless your horse has a very stiff tail.

Had to borrow it from Tiffani or mine would have been 4 miles long.

[motorgypsy]

Nito you missed the point on David CAstro. Poni was drooling over him it sounds like. We all know the best trainers get their pick of the best paso finos.

Things you need to think about. It's illegal for anyone but a vet to do the "procedure" and most vets won't do it. That's very simple to understand. So there are many people out there breaking the law to do this. Just because it's the norm in other countries doesn't make it right.

It doesn't matter if the "logo" shows a J tail. There are natural J tails. It doesn't show an artificial, "dorky" J tail. The first time we saw it we were horrified.

I'm issuing you a challenge. Take some horsey friends to a paso fino show who have never seen paso finos and don't know anything about them and see what they say about the tail. No cheating or advance descriptions. But please tell them that the extreme look of the tail is NOT natural. They don't run around in the pasture with their tail stuck out like that. We've seen thousands of paso finos and believe me, they don't.

I grew up long ago with TW's and saddlebreds with the broken tails that stayed in tail sets, the large chains on the legs and the extremely long hooves to get them to pick up there feet. They were kept in stalls all the time and had no social interaction or pasture time with other horses. We didn't even question this as teens. Now of course, knowing the social nature of the horse and looking back on it, we don't like it at all. But then it was the norm.

Have you looked at the bound feet of women just a couple of generations ago in some Asian countries? The toes were pulled to the heel and bound up so the foot grew like that. It was the norm. Noone questioned it. So you want to look at things you grow up with and think about them - are they good things, bad things, dangerous things? Don't accept them just because they are the norm. And remember our perception of beauty varies from generation to generation. But we shouldn't damage our bodies or our psyches trying to attain it for ourselves or our pets.

[ASB.Immortality]

Nito i have to agree with u as far as a tradition to the breed. Think of this there are some breeds who will put pepper up there butt so they will stick there tails up. Also look at Saddlebreds and Tennesee walkers, the show horses usually have funky looking tails as well that go straight up and then back down. Then look at draft breeds many of the show horses have there tails docked. Actually as far as the saddlebreds, tennesee walkers, and paso finos pasos are the most natural. I mean look at those hidious and cruel weights i mean at least our horses are natural in there feet. At least we keep the pasos manes long and luxurious unlike a Qh. I went to a 4h meeting one time and the showed us how to do a western/ english horses mane. They aren't even completley natural but with them it is just hair.

Look up at are logo for American Paso Finos. The horse has a J tail. Wherever u go the paso fino is known to have the tail. Even the stuff PFHA sells, all the horses have J tails

And yes the tail tyed to the side of the saddle is used so the horse does not swish it's tail just as Suezette said. i've done it with Indio many times but unfortunately it never stopped him . He always did it whenever i kicked him or changed speed

It is the posts like this that make me wonder where people get such things. Cruel & hideous. If I went by everything I heard, I would think that when you trim your little horses feet down & rode them around on the pavement all day was cruel & hideous. It is just a barefoot version of pressure shoeing.
Also, I can't say where you pepper at. None of us use pepper. Maybe ginger salve but not pepper.

[motorgypsy]

ASB - ginger salve???? OWWWWWW. That stuff burns something terrible. How about the clamp up inside the sheath.

I agree. Some do trim pas o finos too short but since it's not the goal to get a high step, making them too tender would be counterproductive. When you go into the holding arena before a class, a farrier checks your horses feet to see if they are sore by the way and they also look for other things like that. Of course our guys are so naturally hot they really don't need to be jazzed up. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Not all of them of course but the show riders like the hotter ones. There are many mellow ones. We just like the hotter ones.

[ASB.Immortality]

From the pressure shoeing point of view, depending on how it is done, it can be used to enhance any kind of step. We have watched many farrier over the years that are what some folks consider experts in it. You can make the step faster, shorted, make a horse reach (out front or higher). If you can get to be friends with one that knows the trade, you would be amazed at what can be done to horse. They don't even have to be wearing shoes.

Clamp up the sheath? Can't say I know that one. I must have missed it somewhere also. I am going to have find the folks you guys know & visit them to see what I have missed.

[Nito]

A thought that just came to mind..

How come a tail alternation is so disgusting to ya'll but when it comes to geld a horse its like taking candy from a baby?

How do you think the horse feels to have his only testicles cut off? they didnt choose to be gelded. How come this isnt cruel to you ?

[motorgypsy]

Remember - kids are invisible - a fly on the wall. By the way - we have friends now who have TW's who do nothing at all in any way painful or cruel to their horses. I rode their stallion and he is sooo cool. The only thing wrong with him - he's not a paso fino! ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

[Suezette Rodriguez]

Well thats true !! what do you have to say now? I think that you guys are the most people who do that - geld a horse for he can calm down and use him for a trail or pleasure horse and do it for your pleasure on trails !! dont you think the horses have feelings?

[El Indio Elegante]

I understand that not all TWH's use weights. I rode one about a year ago that was awesome. I rode him bareback and he had no weights and he was natural.

[Pasogirlz]

Ok everyone...calm down...take a deep breath..... ;-) :lol: Sorry...a little comedy...[i]very little

[ASB.Immortality]

I understand that not all TWH's use weights. I rode one about a year ago that was awesome. I rode him bareback and he had no weights and he was natural.

Just your post made it seem like everyone of the Saddlebreds & TWHs were shod with cruel, hideous things. I have Saddlebreds & still own a Racking Horse & my hubby owns Walking Horses. I just can't say my horses are shod with anything that cruel & hideous. As I have said before... there are many misconceptions & non-truths that poisons all breeds. Unless you have personally dealt in them please do not recount what you have stood on the outside and observed.

I can safely say I have seen many Pasos, and can say that many things seen on the outside of the box does not look right. You just have to step inside & see what exactly is what. That is why I asked the questions on the tails. I would like to know exactly is done to them to make them look like that. As for it being natural or not natural, I have no idea but I have seen many Saddlebreds & Saddlebred foals that will carry their tails like that naturally. :D

[motorgypsy]

A horse is gelded for two reasons - one, so he won't reproduce because he is not deemed of sufficient quality to reproduce. And two, so he can have a more social and happy life interacting with other horses. Many barns and trail rides won't accept stallions and they can't be kept out with the herd. We could just eat them instead of gelding them. A humane euthanasia is less painful than a tail alteration because there's no pain afterwards. ( You know I'm sure that I'm kidding here.) The horse doesn't miss his parts because they don't have the ability to project into the future and stallions breed so little in their lives anyway in their natural state that they may likely never breed at all even if they aren't gelded. They also tend to live a shorter life if not gelded because they are always fighting for mares and get injured quite often. So gelding is a trade off - a cost benefit study says the benefit outweighs the cost/pain.

There are two types of surgeries - functional and cosmetic. A gelded male horse is allowed a much more free and social life which makes him a happier animal. This is a functional surgery like fixing a club foot. A small amount of pain for a longer, happier life. You can use progesterone implants in stallions but it's very impermanent and doesn't always work.

Doing his tail or trimming his throatlatch or whatever costmetic thing the breed deems makes him more beautiful does in NO way make him a happier or more healthy animal. It is done by his owner because his owner thinks it makes him prettier. Do you really think he's asking "Oh please cut my tail so the mares will like me better?" Hardly. It's our own vanity that causes us to do the surgery. It in no way benfits the horse.

And this is a good criteria to use before any surgical procedure. If you have a giant wart or mole on the end or your nose and people can't get to know the real you because all they can do is look at that wart, then this becomes a functional surgery. But to turn 34 B's into 34 D's because the boyfriend thinks they would look better???? Get a new boyfriend. This surgery would not make a healthier person and the boyfriend would find something else he didn't like if this were done. A loser for sure.

So think about the horse, not your own ego when you do things to it.

[CarolU]

Well, first of all you can't compare it to gelding. You geld a horse for practical and useful reasons, to extend the usefulness (and therefore the life) of the horse, allow it in more social herd situations, make it safe for children etc. It is not done for purelly cosmetic reasons of the owners.

Secondly, there ARE champions with normal tails...I believe Maraquita has a natural tail, so NO it is not a necessity for a tail to be done (although many owners are told this - and that also helps perpetuate the practice). I also think I see more and more natural tails all the time, so word IS getting through to some owners and breeders that it is costing them sales.

ASB, while on one hand I agree with you that it is no worse then what is done to alter other animals...other animals aren't marketed and shown as "natural" ...ours is. They don't allow glitter, silver, ribbons, tail enhancements or ANY adornment of the horse. It is supposed to be shown in a totally natural state. Nothing is allowed to detract from the horse's performance....Except well....some have corkscrew tails...and tails that stick out sideways...and tails that curl around like a Spitz dog.. Why is that?

My personal belief is that I don't like what is done to ANY of these animals and wouldn't do it. No tail or ear jobs.

But, I believe if the majority of the people want their Pasos to look like Poodles, they can do it...just remove the word "natural" so no one EVER thinks those weird tails are inherited!!!!

[Nito]

Gelding is therefore almost the same as a J tail procedure just a geld is going to hurt more.

they go through "short" pain and thats it. But the 'dorky' looking tail is the owners problem for trusting someone with out experience. what can be the worst case scenario in a tail alternating surgery?

[Barbwire]

http://www.jammerbabe.com/flotilla/images/smiles/Crap3.gif







Now that's very little humor...

[Cindy]

Yes indeed. Much more amusing to watch. :twisted:

[Brigitte]

Just popping in to comment about the judge saying the horse would have placed higher if he had hsi tail done. In the CONFEPASO rulebook it is written that they give points for the tail, when I found that out I was kinda shocked, I mean, sure I know the tail has influence on how the horse looks and all, but that they actually give points for it in competition? But then I thought about it longer and it kinda makes sense because some judges like the J tail and some like the flag tail, so it all depends on the judge and his taste for the horse's tail, and many of them like the J tail ( so I believe then )
Ok, now go on with your discussion :bsmile

Edited again to add :
And I do not believe a horse is supposed to beat another JUST because it's tail is nicer looking. ( and the points they give for the tail is max. 5, so that much of a difference I don't think it will make)

[CarolU]

Suzzette...I think that is the sorriest reason to cut a horse's tail - so it can place in shows. :shock:

A horse is SUPPOSED to be placed by it's PERFORMANCE and NOT it's looks! There is not one single point to be awarded for 'tail jobs'...good or bad (actually altered tails are SUPPOSED to be DQ'd).

You shouldn't HAVE to alter the horse at all to win...and let us FIRE the judge who believes or acts upon this. If a dorky tail is placed over better gait, I would HOPE a multitude of protests would rain down on the judge's head and pull his/her card!

[Nito]

Barb and Cindy ,

Do you actually think im being serious with the little 'short' pain ?

CRAP! i should upload a video of a horse getting gelded and one having a J tail procedure. then we can all vote which one deserves the treehuggers cruelty award of the year! :rofl

[ASB.Immortality]

I have personally seen gelding & tail cutting. I will take having a horse's tail cut anyday over having a stallion cut. But we still have two studs (very confirmationally correct, good work ethic, they have proven they should be able to keep their friends Bob & Jim) & one of them has already had his tail cut with the other one on the schedule to be done. :)

Edited to add:
In our place a horse's tail isn't cut until you know what it will make. They are not just automatically done. If the horse isn't destined to become a showhorse, he will more than likely not have his tail cut. But we have plenty of examples of horses with their tails being cut making great pleasure horse. Also, you would never that the tails were cut. After a little time out of their set, the tail is straight.

[Suezette Rodriguez]

Well Down here in MIami that looks good in a horse ! wat if you saw Imponente or Arco iris with out there tail done ! they will look pretty bad well scratch that they will look really bad ! IM MY OPINION any horse no matter how pretty he or she is looks bad with out there tail done! Im my opinion they should not get Dq'ed for having there tail done !!

[Nito]

Anyways just went over everything and we are off topic to what Mr Marlow asked.

Since Miami is somewhat the paso fino captial of the world; along side with Ocala. Most horses here show all around the country and show in Confepaso which actually gives you points on the tail like Ms Brigitte said. So its very common to see a horse with a J tail here. WHICH is why you cant outlaw it cause what is the PFHA without the best horses( which have the J tail done) with the exception of a group of like 40 retired sires and other greats ?

NOTHING BUT A BIG FLOP!
goodnight everyone! and happy new years! :lol:

[motorgypsy]

Nito you aren't paying attention here. I wore braces on my teeth for two years and believe me it isn't comfortable. I was 30 years old at the time. I didn't do it to win Miss America. I did it because my teeth were so tight it was affecting my gums and my bite and I very likely would have had serious problems later. This is functional pain with a puporse.

Now one more time and repeat after me. TAIL ALTERATION IS DONE SO THE OWNER CAN WIN RIBBONS - IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IMPROVING THE LIFE OR HEALTH OF THE HORSE. GELDING IS DONE TO GIVE THE HORSE A BETTER LIFE.

If that is not clear I'm sure I can say it many other ways.

At least know what you are doing and why. We can rationalize all sorts of behaviors. It doesn't make them right or sensible. Would you really want your mom or dad having pastic surgery done on your face without your consent because they didn't think you were good looking enough? What an insult. Now if your nose didn't work properly that's totally different. Than it's justified. If you don't think your horse has a pretty tail, get another horse with a pretty tail.

[Nito]

I dont really have to cut tails.

mine do it naturally. except the mare we had.

[SandyMM]

WHICH is why you cant outlaw it cause what is the PFHA without the best horses( which have the J tail done) with the exception of a group of like 40 retired sires and other greats ?

NOTHING BUT A BIG FLOP!

I think that a large portion of the 85% of Paso owners in this country who choose not to show - many of them precisely because of this attitude - have a completely different opinion of artificial J/dog tails...

[Kerry W]

Anyways just went over everything and we are off topic to what Mr Marlow asked.

Since Miami is somewhat the paso fino captial of the world; along side with Ocala. Most horses here show all around the country and show in Confepaso which actually gives you points on the tail like Ms Brigitte said. So its very common to see a horse with a J tail here. WHICH is why you cant outlaw it cause what is the PFHA without the best horses( which have the J tail done) with the exception of a group of like 40 retired sires and other greats ?

NOTHING BUT A BIG FLOP!
goodnight everyone! and happy new years! :lol:

I thought Colombia was the Paso Fino Capital of the world..no WAIT...it's Puerto Rico....Miami??????? COME ON!! :shock:

Wouldn't be a "normal" New Year without the "J tail" war. :lol:

[Pasogirlz]

I'm not gonna get to bed tonight...am I? :roll:

[motorgypsy]

Actually the same here. Ours have a natural J if we wanted to comb the tail hair so it showed. In fact our Florida Cracker has a natural J - but then he's a paso fino wannabe anyway!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/CRW_1637.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

So Nito...you DON"T use any anesthesia when gelding a horse??? :shock:

Mine are knocked clear out and laid on a tarp for gelding...there is NO pain during the procedure. To geld a horse with no anesthesia would be the utmost of cruelty.

As to the tail issue...if you cannot ENFORCE it...you cannot RULE it.
Since the PFHA does not have portable ultrasound machines, nor the technicians to operate them at EVERY PFHA show...they cannot enforce it.
So...HOW can it be a "rule"?

As to my personal views on altering tails...nope, no way. That is man's vanity enforced upon an animal...plain and simple. It serves no purpose to the horse, except of course for possibly limiting the movement of the tail when this cutting goes wrong, and rendering the tail useless to the horse in some cases. To me, there is nothing as gross as a bad tail job on a horse. To say that a Paso Fino with an altered tail is 100% NATURAL...is ludicrous to me.

A horse was meant to have 100% use of its tail...they do not have this on a cut tail. Sure, it may only be the end of the tail that is most affected, BUT..it still has lost some amount of free tail movement. I have two horses with a natural "J".... a natural J feels NOTHING like a cut tail tip. A natural J can still straighten out completely when the horse wants it so.... NOT so on most cut tails.

Bottom line... since the PFHA cannot PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt, that a tail is cut or not...they cannot have it as a rule. Since they have no interest in investing in the equipment and manpower it would take to do so... I expect we will see more J tails than we care to. All you can do, if it bothers you..is NOT BUY HORSES from farms who practice this. All you can do is hit them in the wallet. When people STOP buying horses with altered tails...altered tails will go AWAY. ;-)

[Brigitte]

like Ms Brigitte said.

Nito I feel special. Ms Brigitte ( you do know that I'm 16 right?) you make me feel older, lol

Btw just a little humor, take it easy :bsmile

[CarolU]

This is for Suzzette...iti is in our rule book SEVERAL places:

I do not have all the proposals in front of me, just a summary from our Regional meeting
Proposals to:
Constitutuion Changes
"Change breed standard to delete the word alteration in the standard which reads as follows- "Mane, tail and forelock are as long full and luxurious as nature can provide. no artificial additions or alterations are allowed."

This is also under Rule changes
" 2 changes to delete rules relating to 'artificially changing the appearance of a horse", 'Tail alteration" and "altering its natural conformation or appearance" Rational is to delete rules not being enforced.
...

I borrowed those from Sheri's post.

If we allow tails to be altered, we may as well throw out all 'natural' rules and allow dead tails, tail enhancements, jacked up hooves, maybe elevator shoes?, what's next.

What DOES matter is that this goes to a VOTE in two weeks. The MAJORITY will speak. Weather you are pro/con on tail altering, it will either be legal or illegal.

I personally don't see the 95% of Paso Fino owners giving up the "natural" description so 5% can turn tails into pompoms. That is how I see it happening. But, we'll see.

[Nito]

puerto rico ? :lol:

Pasogirl... you need farm tours around miami and ocala!
anyways goodnight my debaters.. this is fun
EDIT TO SAY: if the rule passes i dont think much is going to change.

night everyone and sorry if i offended anyone

[Abejita]

Ok ..to compare gelding with tail cutting. :duh Going off the deepend there me thinks..and Cindy..if any of my posts have the mis information Please publically educate me..I dont mind when people (politely, please) educate me to my ignorance :smile: Rather be educated than to continually look like a fool (well there ARE time I know I am being a fool..)

[ASB.Immortality]

I will admit right out that it has nothing to do with the health & life of a horse in what we do. But I prefer it for what we do showing wise. If we didn't show, then I wouldn't do it.

I don't know about the Pasos though. From what everyone is saying about the procedure, it is the same just in a different spot on the tail (not for sure though seeing as no has quite told me yet). If I were in that showing spot with a really nice horse, I would probably do it also. But when it is your horse, it is your decision. As the old quote goes... beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Beauty to me is a set tail, where some prefer an unset tail.

Rule wise... the rules should protect the horse. If the tail procedure isn't hurting him & is done by a vet or tail pro then I could see where it is ok. But if it got to the point of the deadening of tails... WHOA, there is no way. No matter if you want your horse cosmetically altered, he should still be able to use what was given to him. Well... unless he is a gelding. ;-)

Also... where we are when you have a horse gelded, they are pretty much going to have to tough it out. Sedated yes, but not laid out unless they are hiding in some strange spot. So you can see where I would opt to watch a tail cutting anyday & I try to stay away from gelding unless the horse is just a total twit. Seen & had that before.

[Brigitte]

As the old quote goes... beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Amen to that!!!

[Serendipity]

Gelding is a safety thing would you want to put a child on a stallion you did not know .
If we kept all colts as Stallions this breeds prices would fall thur the floor Stallion do lead lonely lives they are kept in stalls for a lot longer and are in icealation most of the time most stallions don't have buddies.Again Gelding is for safety we all know there are somepeople that really should not own horses. Can you imagen them all with stallions? Scary thought .A stallion of any breed to be a animal that exhibets all that represents the breed and all that the breeder is striving for.

It takes an Awesome Stallion to produce a Great Gelding

I thing the biggest problem is the rule is not enforced it State in the rule book that any alteration is prohibited and a horse that has is should be disquilfied the rule is on page 54 look it up on pfha.org " VI surgical procedures and ingections General prohibition"
These horses with visable proseders should be DQ the stewart should not let them in the ring Its in the rule book thats black and white these horses can even be barred from future involvment. That not me being nasty its fact and as log as we as members allow the rule book to not be upheld we lose ground.
I do not we were appualed at Na't this year we saw horses in training gear that was all metal and chains metal bar across the nose and stuff some of the dealers were selling looked awful mean bosels that were ful of metal nods to poke the horse that was sad to see.

Sandy's right maybe there does need to be 2 assn.

[Nito]

SERIOUSLY!

It up to the owners desicion to have the tail cut. drop it already! cutting some balls is much more meaner than having a ugly j tail!

[El Indio Elegante]

Actually at the youth mundial they were putting kids from 4-9 on stallions that they had never met before

Everyone look at something look at how fighty we are getting.Yes some are trying to make the breed more natural and some like it the way it is but technically we are all family and we do need to stick together instead of spread apart :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Ginger]

Lol, you guys type faster than even I do. Poor Nito- jumped to conclusions again, even after playing the race card (I was aiming for age and gender, actually).

I don't have stallions and I don't buy stallions, so therefore, I wouldn't geld them. My two geldings were done "before the fact", so I didn't contrubute to any testicular removal. :lol:

It's been fun! This time of year always gets interesting.

:yay at mankind completely altering literally everything just for appearance's sake, LOL.

[Brigitte]

Yes it is true that they put kids 4-9 on stallions at the Mundial, BUT they did check the stallions out before giving them to the kids

[motorgypsy]

Nito - it's illegal unless a vet does it - remember that. You don't want to risk legal problems or have someone sic PETA on your farm. They don't play nice. And do keep in mind that there are some really nasty surgical procedures done on humans without their consent because someone thinks it makes them more desireable or more marriageable. I don't even like neck sweats - but then I don't like girdles either! ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

[Nito]

gypsie- its alright nothing hiding at my farm no clinic of butchering tails there!

you can come check out the tails if you'd like :D

[Suezette Rodriguez]

Thanks Indio !! Well Im sorry if i offened anyone or got them mad !CarolU ! have a good Night ! Well I hope the Take that rule out and if they dont what will happen to all the show horses that have there tails cut !?!



BYe

[Serendipity]

I "J" talk can also be acheived by massaging the tail then its natural just a little elbow gease so to speak :smile:

[Brigitte]

That's true, then again most people are too lazy to do that and prefer to spend some money and never worry about it again.

[motorgypsy]

You see this is why the rule produces so much heat - there are many many natural J tails, there are some that are surgically enhanced very minimally so it is extremely difficult to tell and then there are the botched jobs. The minimally altered tails are cheating that can't be caught, the natural J's are just that - natural, but none of us want the botched jobs. So how to penalize them so they don't happen????

The reason I hate to see the rule removed is because the botched jobs need to be excused. This way at least - like a speed limit which we know everyone disobeys to some degree, it keeps people from wholesale alteration and many more botched jobs.

[Pasofinoguy]

As far as i can tell its not something people talk about in the open. More of a thing that is best kept to people you know. If it was such a normal thing then you would have trainers puting in there farm ads that they cut tails and charge such and such fees. Get rid of the rule no matter how it is really seen and these people will start to show them selfs to the new public and to the rest of the breed. I say if these peoples horses cant cut it with out doing things to make there horse look better like cute a tail then thats there problem. The rest of us will breed for looks and brio to have a tail that naturaly sticks out.

[Pasogirlz]

I know this thread is getting ppl riled up, but I hope that it makes a lot of you take action and vote the way you feel best, and not just sit back and complain about the rules. So in all the feather ruffling, I hope some good will come in the end. No matter which side of the fence you are on...get involved w/the vote! ;-)

[Monty]

I believe I heard in the future Boxers are going to be allowed to show without the ears being docked - so ,it would seem the dogs are slowly changing their "show" and "proper" appearance rules too .
Venus had a beautiful flag - when she would be in a canter or gallop - Monty's tail doesn't have a "J" - I really don't care for the "J" look - but that is JMHO :arrow: To each his/her own :question
As far as gelding - we have a young stallion here - -not a Paso - who has earned the right to keep his "family jewels" - for now . It all depends on how he does in the next show year - at the moment he is getting 4 awards - 2 National Championships from USEF :! And two from IFSHA
A year ago I would have said = geld or get him off the property - but he has mellowed and is a lover boy now - BUT , IF he is gelded , it will be done by the vet and at the clnic !

[CarolU]

Brigette and Suezette,

I realize that you two have grown up in countries where tail altering is normal and to you that is how horses are 'supposed to look'. I have no problem with what you do in your countries or what your show rules are there. I really DO agree with what ASB said about it not being as cruel as other cosmetic things done to animals.

Where I have a problem is that in the U.S., and we are talking about PFHA rules here and not Confepaso rules, the American market is very different. Here people grow up seing 'normal' tails and have a fixed vision of what a horse should look like.

In the U.S., a 'natrual' craze has taken a firm hold across the country. People use more humane methods, tack, want a natural horse, look to have relationships with a horse beyond it being a piece of livestock. In THIS world, which is largely taking over the American horse world, 'natural' starts with appearence. In this natural world, part of horsemanship now is reading horses to understand their psychology.

A 'tucked' tail is a sign of submission or embarassment for a horse...just like it is for a dog. A tail that has been artificially quited, weather through surgery or the use of collectors or tying to the side, is seen as -not necessarily cruel, but as unnatural....it is silencing the horse's voice.

I know in your world this accepted. In our world it is becoming less and less accepted. The problem arrises when Paso Finos leave the Caribbean or even the Miami area and come into mainstream America.

There are many of us who want to change this negative image of our breed. Our horses -when unaltered - are beautiful, natural, proud animals with flowing tails and alert experssions. They dont' have tucked tails.

This arguement has happened annually (at least) on this BB (and others) and I'm sure it will continue. There are two cultures clashing here with one horse in the middle.

[motorgypsy]

I propose that we leave the rule as is or rewrite it in some way so that it means we do not accept alterations of any part of the horse for cosmetic reasons and I make this proposal for this reason:

We have speed limits on the highway. Do people obey them perfectly? No. But what would things be like if we took them away? Far more accidents and very dangerous speeds.

If surgical alteration is allowed in the breed then the judges would have no rule to allow them to excuse a butcher job. True, many of those cheating would get away with it. But that isn't the point. The point is - the rule prevents many more butcher jobs that would happen without the rule.

Good night all!

[George Marlow]

Wanted to mention I edited my original post(please review).

Was going to include, I truly prefer natural beauty, if you like
the way God made it. Make-up turns me off. My wife had a
hard time understanding this at first but began to like the idea
little or no make-up. Oh maybe I'm kinda off subject, she does
not have an "altered tail" and I would be a little concerned that
if she had one early in our relationship, by 37yrs this March it
could really look awful!

[stella]

Gelding a horse is not just a safety and management benefit to humans, but more humane for the horse, if you're not going to use it for breeding......especially if its to be around mares, it can be quite frustrating for the animal, and why?
Whereas, with tailcutting, there's no real benefit to anyone its strictly superficial/cosmetic. Its not a valid comparison.

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone buys the argument, that if rules arent enforced, they should be dropped.
Whatever happened to, rewriting rules so they could be enforced, or just getting off one's duff and having the courage/providing the funds to creat the means to enforce them?
Gee, does that mean they'll be doing that to other rules too, if they dont feel like bothering?

[CarolU]

To be honest, I think the rule CAN BE ENFORCED if they really wanted to.

Just say they set a date...Jan 1, 2008. Any horse born after that, the rule applies to. Any hore before that, is 'grandfathered.'

Horses with questionable tails are examined by a vet. If the tail is found to be altered, the horse is banned from life from the show ring. The owner is banned for 2 years, as is the trainer who cut the tail. If the owner won't say who the trainer is, the owner is banned for 4 years.

That would stop the practice...dead.

[motorgypsy]

the main thing is - regardless of how easy it is to enforce, removing the rule just encourages the cutting.

People say we should do away with the drug laws because they can't be enforced but after prohibition was done away with the amount of drinking skyrocketed. We don't really want drug use skyrocketing.

The rule, just by existing, stops many people from cutting the horses tails so in itself is helpful. I do know that I believe it is Mundial who penalizes a dead tail and there was a big arguement over horses that were excused for having dead tails. Not having any rule is giving permission to do the tail cutting. So we really want to do that?

[Terry Wallace]

Carol...of course it CAN be enforced.... but the PFHA is NOT enforcing it. They apparently do not wish to commit the funds to do so. If they did enforce it, they would need to PROVE alteration. If they cannot prove it, they have no case....result of that would be the PFHA losing lots of member money on something they cannot prove, in court case after court case. So..what is the point?

It is too much of "Do as I say..not as I DO" as far as PFHA goes.

Until there is a good, accurate way to PROVE the alteration... they are "spinning their wheels" so to speak.

Can you imagine...the cost of class per show, if the PFHA had a technician and an ultrasound machine at each PFHA show? I shudder to think! Do you think the members would agree to "foot the bill" through higher show costs?

Until the altered tail is deemed "not saleable"... until people stop buying horses with altered tails, until people REALLY stand up for getting it stopped.... we are pi$$ing in the wind.... ;-) JMO

You won't find an altered tail on my farm. I would never have that done.
Would I completely reject a RESCUE Paso because it had an altered tail?..nope...it is not the "want" or "fault" of the horse... Would I go to a farm and buy ANY Paso show horse (or not) with an altered tail? Nope.... to me, that would be "condoning" the practice. I don't feel it is an ethical thing to do.... but that is JMO.... and all that would mean...is my "loss" was somebody else's gain....

[motorgypsy]

I agree Terry - they aren't going to spend the money to enforce the rule BUT if the tail is really butchered, even the most "look the other way" judge needs a way to excuse the horse. Personally I'd like to see a general "surgical alteration" clause put into the rules. That no surgical alteration for cosmetic puposes will be permitted and that any horse with a cosmetic surgical alteration will be excused and not permitted to compete in PFHA shows. And the trainer will be suspended. Will this be enforced often? Of course not. But there are times when it will be and it will help stop the alterations because most of us prefer to follow the rules rather than risk the alternative.

[ASB.Immortality]

I finally found what I was looking for. Here is exactly what is done to our horses for them to have a set tail. But please keep inmind, that some horses naturally have a loose tail & never have to have them cut.

http://www.trot.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57&Itemid=30

[CarolU]

I don't think it would cost do do...and you could add the cost of the vet exam to the fine for the owner of the horse who made it necessary.

First, most people would comply and not risk having their horse and themselves banned.

Secondly, you could have the on-call vet come to the show grounds ONCE and check any tails that were suspect (i.e., as deemed by show management or other participants).

After the a few such suspensions no one would break the rule.

And as to the arguement that the horses 'need' disfigured tails to compete in Confepaso...money rules. If Confepaso wants American horses and dollars...or if they want to sell horses to the American market or show in American shows....they would change their rules too.

The real point is that they don't WANT to enforce it. That is the simple truth.

[PFRydr]

they go through "short" pain and thats it. But the 'dorky' looking tail is the owners problem for trusting someone with out experience. what can be the worst case scenario in a tail alternating surgery?

the worst case scenario would be a horse I saw with a botched tail job.....
no tail at all! must be embarassing for the horse to be looking like a rottweiller in a horse suit. ;-) JMO

[Cindy]

Nito, at what point do you think I have directed any comment at you. I am not at this time participating in this discussion. It is somewhat vain to think that every post made in a thread is directed at you. If I want to direct a comment at you I will use your name. It will look somthing like this.

Nito, there is no one inch incision used in this proceedure. I have my doubts that you have ever seen the proceedure done since you made this statement.

Now aren't you glad you mentioned my name?

[Nito]

Alright what I used the gelding for was the actual procedure NOT the after life. meaning the process of gelding and compared to the procedure the tail gets so like just the surgery which one is worse?

Carol you may have great ideas but I dont think its ever going to happen. MORE than .5% do this procedure and show a horse with a cut tail. Actually most of the fino and performance horses wont qualify for your newly PFHA. and remember CONFEPASO is like the mom and dad of all paso fino assns. and if they were to enforce suspection and so on every show horse farm and most breeders that breed for fino will go off and make a new and better assn. Are you willing to pay more than you are already to have this procedure done? What if no horse that were suspected of the J tail all of them past the 'test' who is going to pay for the vet for doing some lousy check ups?

this law enforcing it will be ridiculous and pointless it will only lead to the PFHA falling into a deep hole unable to get out. How many horses have this procedure versus the ones that dont?

[Mellifluous]

:roll:

[CarolU]

Nito...I didn't say .5% I said 5%, and I wasn't talking about JUST people who show in PFHA, I was talking about ALL Paso Fino owners in PFHA. Believe it or not, the MAJORITY of horses in the U.S. live outside the Miami and Florida region area! I'm sure this may be a shock to you :shock: but the majority of owners could give gnats @ss what Confepaso does or doesn't do, or what they think of our horses with their naturally
beautiful flowing tails.

I will concede ONE fact to you though...the people who 'control' PFHA are in that 5% who will not enforce this rule. Period. So while 95% will vote against taking the rule out and DO want it enforced, the 5% will continue to not enforce it. Life goes on. :confused

So, since you do like dorky tails, and don't mind hurting your horse to get one, you should plan on a lifetime of arguing FOR it, because the vast majority is totally against it.

[Kerry W]

every show horse farm and most breeders that breed for fino will go off and make a new and better assn.

Promise???????? :jumpy

I have bought horses that had their tails cut who are now just broodmares or geldings so do not think people who happen to own a cut tail should be penalized. Yes, I have a wonderful broodmare with an extremely botched tail. When she was young years ago, the trainer and farm owner told me she needed a cut tail to compete. After several attempts (I didn't know about the 2-5 tries to get it right), she went to another very famous trainer to have it repaired. I actually got a bill for $250 from the farm owner for tail cutting and think I still have it as a souvenir. Yes, you would absolutely know the name of the trainer whose name is on the bill for the cutting and no, I will not say who it was....

I like natural tails and most of my horses are still natural, even my show horses. By the way, Batman has a natural tail, although it has somewhat of a J (and is skimpy because he chews his own tail). What is hard for competitors is when judges, especially in bella forma, place an obviously cut tail over other entries. According to some people, judges tell clinic participants that show horses need to have the cut tail to achieve the show horse look. I don't pay to have horses' tails done anymore, but that is just my preference. I can't condemn others if that is what they choose to do. When I buy a horse, it is not part of the equation that I notice when I decide. I care about the temperment, the gait, the bloodlines (if planning to breed) and the conformation. Cut or not cut is just not that important to me.

By the way, what's your opinion on branding? Is putting a permanent brand on a horse an alteration of the natural look? No, I don't freeze brand my horses, but sure know that big "8" on the shoulder means it will cost more.

Marelyn (posting on Alex's account)

[CarolU]

Marelyn...I think the grandfather clause would make it where owners of horses already cut would not be penalized, nor would those horses, they could be shown, bred, etc.

But would you as an owner buy one in the future if you KNEW it could be banned and get you banned in the process? I doubt it.

But all that is hypothetical, since they will not enforce the rule...but I don't buy that it isn't possible...it is.

Unfortunately freeze branding, like tatooing, or microchipping is becoming a necessity. Too many horses are stolen and it is the only insurance you have against theft.

I am totally against HOT branding and THIS I can speak of from the voice of experience, we used to brand our cows and calves on the ranch and it's horrible and very inhumane. I would never do this to a horse.

[Nito]

Kerry- not a very smart way to think. being the fact that most of your horses come from the same farm with the same stallion with a cut tail.

No one will achieve anything but rather lose everything if two associations are formed.

[Mellifluous]

Well, being an architect - here is an architectural/Johnathan Swiftish viewpont. I think that a properly cut tail should have the same a matching radius with the curvature of the rump. If these two do not match, the whole symmetry of the horse is thrown off and a perfect balance is not achieved. How can one say that a horse looks good with a cut tail if the overall balance and radius points are not complementary to one another? It should be like a graceful set of reversed curves undulating across the fino board.

:razz:

[Kerry W]

Kerry- not a very smart way to think. being the fact that most of your horses come from the same farm with the same stallion with a cut tail.

No one will achieve anything but rather lose everything if two associations are formed.

You have no idea where my horse(s) came from dear. I just get sick of having someone from another country come to THIS country, to show and sell their horses, then tell us we know nothing about the breed. It's insulting. We're not good enough, but our money is. Don't be so quick to call someone "not very smart"...women never forget an insult, especially when it is personal. Never...ever. :mad:

[Ginger]

women never forget an insult, especially when it is personal

Several people on here and other paso forums would do well to remember this.

[Beth Worden]

Here's a different "take" on tails...This was about 15 years ago...A horse-trader friend of mine goes to Florida each winter and usually in spring brings up a load of riding horses that he has acquired at the local auctions or farms. He does not deal in gaited horses usually, but I asked him if he happened to come across a good gaited, short horse (preferrably a Paso Fino), to pick it up for me. That spring I went to visit him and asked if he found anything I wanted. He told me he had found a horse that he said was absolutely beautiful put together and gaited like glass, BUT he did not buy him because, and I quote, "somewhere along the way the horse had its tail brusted and it stuck out kinda level with the ground, funny like" and the guy knew I would not want a horse with this kind of conformational problem. So...beauty is in the eye of the beholder. LOLOLOL

[Nito]

Kerry,
It's not smart and you know exactly well that its not smart to have the association split in two.

No reason to be insulted and sorry if it was a huge offensive statement! I'll rephrase myself so you can understand better." Kerry, please it wont be great to split.. " No one is saying you know nothing and Im a Hispanic-American born in Miami and didnt have to cross any border or build a raft to come to this country so dont go there. Leave the whole race issue behind.

Didnt mean to put you in that position.

:-?

[Kerry W]

If it's such a bad idea, then why did you threaten us, by saying they'd take their horses and form another association? If you're not going to do it, stop threatening to do it. If you are going to do it..stop talking the talk and start walking the walk. If I'm stupid for being fed up with the threat, then so be it...it's old and worn out, and it was never really that scary anyway. :D

[Suezette Rodriguez]

Well I just think that if you have a horse or buy a horse and want its tail cut do it and if you think its "unnatural" then dont cut its tail! i also think that they should remove that rule, for me it has no reason , i mean people do it anyways ! and i dont hink that they will imforce that rule tail cutting has been around forever and is apart of the breed!


CarolU with all due respect I was actually born and raised in this Country and thats were i have been use to seeing horses with there tail cut !

If wasnt for those PEOPLE who are from another who you say your sick of , you wouldnt have a PAso Fino.And if worst comes to worst and they do inforce the rule , which i hope they dont , then there will be another association! and i think that the PFHA will not inforce the rule because most of all the horses already have there tail cut and its a tradition of the breed , and i also think that they wouldnt want to lose the money they reciebe from the horse ownersas that have there horses tail cut !!!

[Ginger]

Yes we would, we'd get them one way or another. :D

[Suezette Rodriguez]

And like i sadi they do who are the only ones that are going to be competeing ! you guys who think cutting there tails are "unnatural ? ha lol ;-)

[Mellifluous]

:notworthy

[ASB.Immortality]

Can someone explain to me the exact procedure of what is done to make their tails do that? What the aftercare is? What kind of items are used to keep that appearance, etc?


Ok, we have made it to 8 pages now & my original questions have not been answered. I am still totally curious here. I have revealed our secret about how our tails are done... so tell me yours. :D

I have heard lots of folks explaining all the way around it but never the exact procedure & what the aftermath or aftercare is for it.

[motorgypsy]

Yours is legal. Right now ours isn't so if you want to know this you'd better PM or call someone.

There are many things that people do that are illegal. Do we change the laws because people break them? People rob and muder, cheat on their taxes and in school. Do we change the rules because they are broken? Very bad arguement. Rules keep people civililized and allow you to have at least some idea of what your society expects of you. Eliminate the rules and you have anarchy. So let's lose the idea of changing a rule because it isn't followed. You change a rule because it's a bad rule. Is cutting tails a good thing for horses? Is it so necessary to cut the tail to have a good paso fino? I don't agree. If your horse's tail is not what you want, breed or buy one that has the tail you want. You don't go out and have surgery on the eyes or neck or whatever just because you think it's not your ideal of beauty. Or do you???? This is NOT a good thing. Look at what other associations have in their rules. They do not approve of surgical enhancement in most associations and those that do, do not appeal to the general public. Why do you think the QH is so popular? Because before they did the peanut roller thing and the really dorky lope, the horses looked REAL. My feeling is if you like artificial tails you need to get a saddlebred. They are lovely intelligent gaited horses and you'd be showing with many like minded people. Let's do the best we can to keep our horses natural. They are works of art as they are born. They don't need surgery to improve them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/CRW_1474.jpg

[Kerry W]

Actually Suzette...it wasn't Carol that said that...it was me. I didn't say I was sick of the people..but tired of what they DO. I wouldn't go to Medellin and tell them they were "doing it all wrong", why should we lie down and let someone do that to us? The natural J tail, is a beautiful thing, but it is not NATURAL, in all bloodlines. There are very few that exhibit it naturally. Why cut a tail to make it look like a minority? Could it be because of who OWNED a horse with the J tail.."since So and So's horse had a J tail...let's all do that to ours"?????? It's not like it makes the horse perform better, it's because someone else's horse had it...that just doesn't seem rational to me. If that same person had cut off the ears of their horse, would you do that too? :shock:

[motorgypsy]

Kerry DON'T EVEN SAY THAT - there was a horse who froze the tips of his ears off. There will be someone who thinks it looks cool and have it done to there horse and we'll have more surgery done if we don't keep the surgical alteration is illegal rule.

[Kerry W]

Awww COME ON!! Might as well keep whacking while we're at it..how about some tat's too? I'd like a little rose on Aggie's left sock. :lol:

[Terry Wallace]

Lets go over this one more time :roll:

Laws and rules.... speeding is ENFORCEABLE, drug laws are ENFORCEABLE
Rules/laws that are being compared are ENFORCEABLE as well as ENFORCED.

Tail alteration is neither one!

For Marelyn...on the branding aspect... by 2009 every horse in the USA will be required to have a permanent ID of some type. Mine will have freeze brands AND microchips... Why they will have both is because Colorado and other western states have an awesome brand inspection law that protects horses and other livestock, and because microchips can move around, get lodged in neck fat, and become unreadable over time. Kind of the same with lip tatoos...they can actually become fainter & fainter over the years until they are completely gone.

I don't like hot branding..that really hurts (only for a little bit...not at all like a tail job healing)... I do like freeze branding... it really does not hurt, most horses don't even move when freeze branded correctly. If it does hurt, I would doubt it would hurt longer than five minutes max....

If you would like to know more about freeze brands..go to www.lhbrandingirons.com they make freeze and hot brands and made mine for me. They have a very good video on freeze branding horses..I have that video should you like a copy...or...you can buy one off that site...

If I had to choose only ONE type of permanent ID...it would be freeze brand... It can be seen from a distance, it is tracked by the state, and soon to be tracked nation-wide. I carry a brand card with my brand, and in many western states you must carry a horse ID card with you when you haul a horse, which shows the markings (if any) and the brand.

If someone were to steal one of my horses, and tried to sell it at an auction, they first have to prove they own the brand...or..they must have a signed bill of sale/livestock inspection sheet, saying they own the horse before they could ever collect a dime on it..or even get it in the sale in the first place. Just FYI ... ;-)

[ASB.Immortality]

Yours is legal. Right now ours isn't so if you want to know this you'd better PM or call someone.


I personally do not think that is right. It may not be legal with YOUR association but the procedure itself IS legal & people are having vets do it. Just because someone knows the specifics of how the procedure is done does not make them illegal. It may just be someone that knows it & not does it. What is the big deal about (other than the "it's not legal w/ the association") & why do some try so hard to hide it? IMHO it just makes it look like the Pasos have some nasty secret they are trying to hide in the closet. Especially when the judges & trainers know it is done & seem to lean towards it. From the possible rule change, the PFHA seems to be leaning towards it also.

[Cindy]

ASB, I also find it very interesting that noone has bothered to answer your question. Could it be that they have no idea how it is done? Don't have to post here. Could have PMed you. This has been going on for two days now and not one person has done so. I don't think there is anyone involved in this discussion who can actually answer your question.

[Nito]

and if they were to enforce suspection and so on every show horse farm and most breeders that breed for fino will go off and make a new and better assn.

Kerry-I didnt say I wanted to make another association. Do you think people will eventually quit paying charges for having their horse inspected by a vet to see if has been cut or not. How'd you feel if you get charge with a ridiculous bill? Would'nt you get fed up with it?

Cindy- I guess you havent eathier or havent seen a profesional do it. I wonder if this is why the tails you see are so 'dorky'.

gypsy - This is our ( meaning it iternational INCLUDING the US) breed and this is what some of us LIVE FOR The Paso Fino.

BOTTOM LINE, you naturalists have to stop being so ignorant about this operation. its been around for more than 150 years and is nothing but a cosmetic thing done to search for the perfect Paso Fino, We all know nothing will be perfect. Once again it is not painful for the animal and if you think it is you should come down to see this procedure and then compare it to other cruelty in the horse business. For once get in the show persons shoes instead of just talking jibberish if its inhumane and disgusting and come see it from how I see it. Its a everyday thing here in Miami.

Get accustomed to this. If you think its ugly. thats what YOU feel. I like it and so does a bunch of other people and the rest don't care about it!

Nothing else. Whats going to be solved by banning this for sure? NOTHING. Countries like Colombia, Dominican Republic, and etc. WILL keep on doing it. Instead of banning this for good and wasting money from a budget. Why not use the money in a more productive way? why dont we focus on more public promotion? better shows? a better show circut?


ASB. > I'll make sure I look for the pictures I have and ask the profesionals that do this and go into details for those that care to know the other side of this story..

[Kerry W]

You still made it sound like a threat Nito..sorry. You can go on cutting your horses all you like. I appreciate your admitting it publicly.

Cindy..I don't know how the procedure is done. I don't know how to do a breast implantation either..and wouldn't force that on someone I cared about. It's not something that a breeder usually invites you to watch. Even if they did..I'd decline...adamantly! :lol:

[ASB.Immortality]

ASB, I also find it very interesting that noone has bothered to answer your question. Could it be that they have no idea how it is done? Don't have to post here. Could have PMed you. This has been going on for two days now and not one person has done so. I don't think there is anyone involved in this discussion who can actually answer your question.

Thank you! That is what I was trying to figure out. I am sure there is someone out there that knows & will eventually fill me on the specifics of it. I am just curious about the procedure & its aftercare. I am sure it can't be too far from what is done with our breeds of horses. But was just wondering the exact difference. I could understand if it was a totally illegal procedure done by only a certain few but if vets are doing it, there must be something you call it exactly. I guess everyone is afraid the secret will be revealed. ;-) :D

[Cindy]

Nito, get a life buddy. I have not said anything about tails. You have no idea whatsoever what I think about tails. Go back a couple pages and read what I wrote to you. You have no idea how they do the proceedure. You make statements that are total BS. Why don't you go learn about what you are taling about before you go making statements in public.

Kerry. you are more than entitled to your opinion. One does not have to witness the proceedure to learn how it is done. I prefer to know the facts.

[Cindy]

Nito, please explain to ASB and the rest of us how a tail is cut.

And grow up while you're at it.

[ASB.Immortality]

Cindy- I guess you havent eathier or havent seen a profesional do it. I wonder if this is why the tails you see are so 'dorky'.


I just think that comment was uncalled for. Her horses may very well have the natural "J" or they could be massaged into shape. I do know some that show do that instead of tail procedure. There is no reason for people that care about the same breed to be arguing. You should ban together for what will be the best for these horses in the future (set tails or not). ;-) I do know that everyone has a different opinion but it can be discussed without everyone getting nasty towards each other.

Also Nito, thank you for trying to get the information on the tails I have asked about.

[Barbwire]

http://www.smileyvillage.com/smilies/fighting0061.gif

[motorgypsy]

Actually someone posted the procedure either on here or on pasofinos.com in one of our previous "discussions' on altering tails.

Terry I disagree. Obviously drug abuse, murder, robbery, etc. can't be enforced because it's still happening and people are getting away with it. Really botched tail jobs do get excused. Do we want more of them?

Nito, Suzette, and the others who have grown up in paso fino families who originally came from latin America - please understand that you are of course just as American as we all are but your traditions are different because of where your family came from and the traditions they brought with them.

Let's put this in economic terms. If we are EVER to have the paso fino as a breed accepted by the general horse population of the US, we can't be selling an animal that the general public thinks is deformed. Living in Miami you are very insulated from mainstream America. You probably sell primarily to other paso fino breeders or at least latin Americans who are familiar with them. But eventually our breed should go mainstream. It is truly a breed of the future. Ideal for many different types of riders and many different events, an easy keeper, intelligent, fun and beautiful. Why would anyone who wishes to sell these wonderful horses do something that is going to limit the market for them to people who grew up in the paso fino tradition? It is so small and so limited. You are excluding most of the country and Canada.

We're very tired of taking friends to paso fino shows and having to apologize for the weird tails. Luckily we have paso finos with natural J's or just plain old lovely tails so we can show them the weird tail is done for the shows because a very limited group of people like how it looks.

How many of you have seen the African tribe that starts puting rings around the necks of the women because they think long necks are beautiful? They end up with about ten huge rings around the necks and these horribly deformed necks. They think it's beautiful. These women can not even hold their heads up without the rings. They are damaged. Yes this is an extreme example but the point is, just because something is accepted does not make it good or right or accepted by the main stream of equestrian American.

Equestrian America LOVES long flowing full normal looking tails. They can get these in almost all the other breeds. Why would they buy a paso fino with a weird tail when they can get a Missouri Foxtrotter, A TW, a Rocky or an Icey with a normal tail and a nice gait? That's our competition guys. Think about it. Do we really want to make tail cutting legal in the breed and help your competition sell horses? I have no problem with a tail being wrapped and the hair combed so the tail has a flaglike appearance. That's no different than trimming a long or short bridle path or puting the mane on the right or the left. But SURGERY on the TAIL???? Come on now - think about that from a newby's perspective. EWWWWW. You guys CUT your horses tails to make them look like that???? YUKKKKK!! WHYYYY???

Good people follow the rules. Just having the rule stops a great deal of tail cutting in our breed. We didn't consider TW's or saddlebreds because of all the aritificial stuff they do. If it gets too bad - we'll probably switch to Florida Crackers. Their owners and breeders of Crackers couldn't care less what the tail is doing as long as they can gait and look at a cow! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Mellifluous]

http://www.three-stooges.com/3-stooges.jpg

[Barbwire]

http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/beatdeadhorse.gif

[Ginger]

I have nothing to add, I just want to see if I can break 10th. :D

[Ginger]

No? Well, how 'bout now, then?

[Ginger]

Aw, c'mon. Can't be that far away from truncate....

[Ginger]

Woo-hoo! Did it!

[Barbwire]

Sweet!

[Mellifluous]

Way to go Crystal...You are my hero!

[motorgypsy]

Nito unless these "professionals" are vets you need to be very careful because tail cutting by anyone but a vet is illegal in the US.

[Ginger]

(exaggerated stage whisper: "SHHH- let the dumbbell drop some NAMES, DUH") :lol:

PS- yes. I rule. I am Goddess of the Ten Pages. I'm sure I'm on an anime DVD somewhere.

[Barbwire]

(exaggerated stage whisper: "SHHH- let the dumbbell drop some NAMES, DUH") :lol:

PS- yes. I rule. I am Goddess of the Ten Inches. I'm sure I'm on an anime DVD somewhere.

(Hysterical laughter is heard offstage)

[Cindy]

High five Crystal.

[Kerry W]

and if they were to enforce suspection and so on every show horse farm and most breeders that breed for fino will go off and make a new and better assn.

Kerry-I didnt say I wanted to make another association. Do you think people will eventually quit paying charges for having their horse inspected by a vet to see if has been cut or not. How'd you feel if you get charge with a ridiculous bill? Would'nt you get fed up with it?


I forgot to answer one of your questions. If the rules say that a vet has to examine the tail of my horse to show, then that is the rule. If I get fed up with it..I can stop showing...no one will care. I take my shoes off at the airport when I fly...I am not bothered by this, because I feel it is an attempt to protect my well being. If I become bothered by this...I will no longer fly on airplanes.

I don't feel it is ridiculous to make our breed look it's best to our market..not the market in another country...THIS market in the U.S. I do not feel that a horse with the tail pointing toward the rail (as opposed to pointing upward) is at all attractive. I do not think that the same tail that is STILL pointing at the rail when it is supposed to be relaxed and hanging in a natural position is attractive. If you do, then go ahead and cut them. Maybe they'd look nicer with some tinsel haning off of them..I don't know..as is, I don't like it.

Thank you Cindy..for your respectfulness. I'll find out the specifics of how it is done...not lookin' forward to it...but I will anyway. :D

[Barbwire]

Rubber baby buggy bumpers.

[sporthorse]

Aesthetics/when I was young some european women did not choose to shave thier underarms. I think media and trends can really warp traditions and ethnic pride and remove and influence change sometimes for what I now consider better.
Wonder if less horses would die from piroplasmosis if they could swat mosquitos with their tails?
I happen to think horses are sentient beings higher in the celestial hierarchy than humankind and they are also our gatekeeprs to heavenly rewards. Do not confuse my mutterings of romance with Lindsay and I am sure I do not represent anyhing but my own beleifs but then I communicate with horses at some level and think I may have been abducted visited the Pilatian constaltion or went to Narnia at sometime so discount what you'd like.

[motorgypsy]

Well Ed - horses talk to me quite clearly - your belief is certainly possible. But then I come from a galaxy far far awaaaaay!!!

Jonathan Swift certainly thought they were special. (Gulliver's Travels).

[George Marlow]

I'm going to make a mint. I just ran across an elixir that is safe for horses and humans. For horses it causes their tails to curl, no more worries about rule violations. In really dense humans it somewhat relieves density and allows them to see more clearly. Thanks to some of the replies I have a start on a great client list. (I had to start with a little humor some of the posts really fanned my flame).

WHAT PART OF IT'S A VIOLATION OF THE RULES DO SOME OF YOU NOT UNDERSTAND
It's about following the rules, not the procedure and how its performed, not if you prefer "J" tails, not if you think your opinion is more valid becuase your ancestors set on Gods Paso creation committee.

When we violate the PFHA rules we show disrespect for the association and
majority of the members that strive to follow them, I did say majority.
Gosh glad I had some trouble posting when I started I was boiling,
this ended up being way to mild.

My pet peeve in the rules; A flat walk is a requirement in the Pleasure
class, truly how many horses do you see flat walking in a Pleasure class,
surely not all, how many are excused?

A few of posts back interested me, is it 10 pages or 10inches?

Paso love to one and all

[Ginger]

Horses are star-seed remnants, or "indigo", then.

[ASB.Immortality]

Here is the way I beginning to feel about this subject. I know about the rules part but I just don't see how you can totally understand what they are asking for in the rule if you don't totally know what is done. The more you learn about something, the more you will be able to understand so to speak. But if I can't see it, I just don't need to touch it. :lol:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pooptouch.html

This is a kind of disgusting link but the look on this girl's face is worth every minute of it.

[ASB.Immortality]

Wait a minute... let me take that back. I don't understand the rule! I thought it was posted somewhere in this whole mish mash along the way but I must have missed it.

Exactly what is the rule & how does it read now?

I apologize. If I am correct though... it pertains to a horse having a natural tail, nothing altered at all about it. Is that correct?

[Barbwire]

It just gets better and better, doesn't it?

http://www.smileyvillage.com/smilies/happy0005.gif

:surrender
CANT WE ALL JUST GAIT ALONG!?

Sorry for my rudeness today everyone :-?

[Ginger]

Aww, Nito, it's ok- we all have days where we don't feel so fresh. Here ya go:

http://www.epinions.com/images/opti/cb/9f/pr-Over-the-Counter_Medicine-Tampax_Tampons_With_Biodegradable_Applicator_Super _Plus_Absorbency_Super_Plus-resized200.jpg

:rofl

[motorgypsy]

Nito this forum is a great place to listen to all opinions and the reasons for those opinions and we welcome you and your opinions anytime. We do expect respect however. One good thing - we do all love our paso finos which means we can't be all bad!

By the way - it was me, not Cindy who made the dorky tail remark. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

lol :lol:

you got them motrins too ginger? gonna need them too

[Ginger]

:D

[CarolU]

Cindy- I guess you havent eathier or havent seen a profesional do it. I wonder if this is why the tails you see are so 'dorky'.

BOTTOM LINE, you naturalists have to stop being so ignorant about this operation. its been around for more than 150 years and is nothing but a cosmetic thing done to search for the perfect Paso Fino, We all know nothing will be perfect. Once again it is not painful for the animal and if you think it is you should come down to see this procedure and then compare it to other cruelty in the horse business. For once get in the show persons shoes instead of just talking jibberish if its inhumane and disgusting and come see it from how I see it. Its a everyday thing here in Miami.


Nito...No. 1, it wasn't Cindy who called them DORKY...it was ME, and they are DORKY. I have had horses all my life, seen thousands of horses in the U.S., outside the U.S., Europe, and Canada...and Paso Pom Poms are DORKY tails. Now...that is MY opinion (shared by thousands of horsemen), but I am entitled to my opinion...and I WILL VOTE MY OPINION.

No. 2...who told you this has been done for 150 years..and where is your proof?? I look at old pictures of Paso Finos and NONE OF THEM HAVE DORKY tails. It is MY understanding that tail butchering is a recent 'fad'...one I hope everone outgrows, like pierced tongues.

No. 3. who told you it doesn't hurt? I want you right this minute to cut through the TENDON on your wrist and come here and tell us all it doesn't hurt. I'd really like to see this horse that speaks human and talks. And ASB, that is EXACTLY what is done..the tendon on the underside of the tail is CUT so that the tendon on the upper side will pull the tail up (or sideways, or curled, or jutting out :shock: )

No. 4...I am NOT going to compare it to other cruelties performed on horses --- lets compare it instead to NO CRUELTY. MY GOD!!! We are supposed to be "HORSEMEN" here!! We are supposed to care about the welfare of our animals MORE then ribbons or trophies or titles! Anyone who doesn't shouldn't go near a barn except to eat the droppings on the floor.

Maybe you need to wake up! This kind of abuse