HOW can I make her stop kicking???ARG!!

[Moniece Dickerson]

Well she,Chica again,won't kick at me but she has no quams about kicking at Randy and the dogs.When I had her boarded I had to fix this problem of her wanting to kick at people to tell them leave me alone,I don't want you near me more than a few times.She loves me to death,if i'm out there she's in my pocket but NOONE ELSE.Randy fed this evening and after feeding the goats he started back to go pet her while she ate and WHAM she wheeled around and kicked!Thankgoodness she barely got him!And she kicked at the dog before all that took place.HOW can I PERMANENTLY get through to her that she CAN NOT kick at Randy or the dogs ANYTIME EVER???He saw her in my pocket all day and wants so much for her to be nice to him like that.He just wants to beable to pet and love on her.I don't even want to think of how things in this house will blow up if she kicks his boy,our dane.HEEEELLLPPP!!Moniece

[CarolU]

Moniece...horses kick for two reasons, fear or respect. It certainly sounds like this is NOT a fear issue with Randy (might be with the dogs).

What you need to do is TRAIN her to face you...to 'hind the hiney' and get it around behind her and face you. Train her so that if you LOOK and SEE her hiney, she had BETTER move it behind her. Then teach Randy and others the same thing.

A kicking horse is a dangerous horse. It is one of the big 4 we don't tolerate here...at all.

[appyday]

YOu can put a small dog collar on her with a link of chain attached...drastic but usually cures kicking..

[GeorgeGuns]

I have the same problem with Cascabel - she is absolutely rude to everyone but me. Hubby won't do NH stuff, so he is just going to have to get kicked one of these days and maybe he'll learn.

I did have to get crass with Cas though a few mos ago. I was riding in the pen and Mom came up and got chatty. So we rode over there where she was standing. I knew what was coming, and sure enough, Cas pins her ears (IMO with her that is as good as biting) and WHAM I knocked her across the neck. Scared the bejazzes out of her, but she sure acted a whole lot nicer towards my mom, wouldn't get closer than 4 feet which I consider respectable. I don't feel bad about doing this as I have seen horses reprimand another in much the same way for not giving due respect where they should. A laughable one is when Medias plowed the doodoo out of Encantador when E was not behaving for the vet. E got it right real fast!

I dont' normally advocate smacking horses or any animal, but I do take cues from herd members, and if the shoe fits...! One rule: NEVER hit a horse ahead of the middle of the neck, the further back the better. In the case of kicking that isn't fear or pain based, a good swift "kick" (which is what another horse would do) with a crop is quite in order. THEN work on exercises to maintain respect and build a better relationship. IOW, safety first!

If she gets kicky with other people while you have her in hand, be proactive - move her hiney but fast and keep it up. She gets rude, she moves a lot, be frantic and adamant about it, let her know that if she is going to let you be alpha sometimes, she has to let you be alpha NOW.

[Moniece Dickerson]

Yes CarolU you are exactly right and in this case with both our dogs AND Randy it definitely a respect issue,infact most of the time I have ever seen her do it it has been a respect issue.She and I ironed out a very long time ago that I am boss and that she better not even so much as lift a leg to warn me to leave her alone but DANGIT I can NOT have her doing it to other people and animals either.SO please tell me step by step how to train her to face people when they are aproaching and what can I do to get her to stop kicking at our dogs?

Sometimes she will let the one dog inparticular right up behind her smelling her legs and hooves and sometimes she kicks at her.I will be working with Jessi not to go behind Chica but Chica has to learn once and for all that this get outta here kicking is NOT aloud.THANKS!Moniece

[Carol Nelson]

Got to go with Coreen....kicking is the biggest no-no and it has to be dealt with swiftly and sharply. I carry a medium length crop with me, and when they even posture to kick (you know what signal means what from them)...I let them have a good swift pop on the butt with the whip. And I mean a good one. Not so as to leave welts, but they know they've been stung. Just one, and a good sharp, "NO!!!" and it has to be within the three-second rule or they don't remember why it is they're being punished. John Lyons says "There's only two things you are allowed to "kill" a horse for and one is biting, and the other is kicking. And I make them think I am really going to kill them!"

Funny story: I do not beat my horses...for me to go after them with a whip means I have reached my last straw. My Capuchino daughter has a superior attitude (yes, she knows she's royalty! :D ). After putting up with her bullying the other mares, when my new PPR Palomino mare came on the place, and they took to getting in their kicking matches through the fence, one night I simply lost it. I had had enough! I backed Sora into a corner and I lit into her good...yelling and screaming and leaving several good pops on the butt. After she came out of shock, :lol: , all of a sudden she was my best buddy...following me like a dog and simply begging to be let back into my good graces. She never did let up on Bunny though...and I finally had to put a pasture between them, but at least I'd gained her respect from that night on!

[motorgypsy]

Id' surely keep the dogs away from her and give Randy a lesson in what to do to avoid it. If one of our mares even picks a foot up at another one with me around I pick my foot up, turn and kick out at them and tell them they'd better not even think about it. Be sure to caution him about when they are getting ready to be fed because this is the most dangerous time of all.

[Polly Aulton]

Carol's got it. I have thrown buckets, rocks, screamed, yelled and generally terrorized horses that turned their butts toward me. Works every time. Unfortunately Moniece Randy has to be the one to do it. You've already got her trained.
We train all of our colts not to kick during the nightly feedings. The food is parcelled out and then I'll walk up on them while they are eating. If they try to kick the screaming, yelling and wild hand waving starts. It only takes a couple times and you're able to walk right up to the bowl and pet the horse while he's eating. I've found it's the easiest way to teach them to never turn their butts or kick.
We do have one paso that I taught too well. Now if I try to walk up to him while he's eating, he immediately backs away from his food and turns to face me. If I reach out to him he backs even further away. Poor thing could starve to death at this rate. LOL
Polly

[Paula]

I'll probably get lambasted for this but if she's kicking out of lack of respect, I'd first try kicking chains (the ones that REALLY hurt)... and if that doesn't work, I'd beat the living crap out of her next time she kicked.

Kicking is dangerous... she could really hurt somebody by having no respect.

[stella]

Moniece, the only reason she probably kicked at Randy in this situation is because she was eating.
This is fairly common with horses that are used to being "lot fed" awhile at some previous time in their lives- rather than fed in a closed stall, where they dont have to defend their food. It just becomes a habit to react to anything or anyone touching them, often without even picking their heads up.
I have a number of horses I lotfeed too, and I just respect that, and dont bother them while they're eating. I ask others not to do so, either. Personally, I just like to go with nature, and respect their right to eat in peace, without bothering them then....let them enjoy every morsel without distraction, or fear someone might take it from them.
Its not something to take personally. Its a consequence of how they've been fed, either in the present or in the past.

[Carol Nelson]

With all due respect to you, Stella, and believe me I do respect your opinion...you have a lot more horse saavy than I could hope to have...I have to disagree. I do understand the horse's desire to want to defend its food...but when we put a horse's food down...we put a hand out and often pat the horse or run a hand over it. And I do reprimand when it raises a hoof to kick. Because someday I'm going to sell that horse, and I don't want that horse thinking that ANYTIME is ok to kick at a human. The only time I really screwed up was when my red dun filly lifted a back hock at the Equine Touch lady, and sent her rolling. It happened so fast that my partner and I stood there with our mouths open at the sight of her rolling on the ground (she's a rather portly lady, kind of top heavy, and she was not hurt...gosh, I hope she doesn't read this forum! ;-) ). But it happened so quickly (it was actually more a bump with the hock rather than a kick), and she WAS teasing the horse with a bit of hay...we had no chance to discipline the horse! She got a little upset at us for not doing so, but by the time we collected ourselves (to keep from bursting out laughing), and her up off of the ground, it was too late to discipline the filly so that she would know what she was being disciplined for.
But I was in error there because the filly should've been disciplined right on the spot...again, there really should be NO time that it is ok for a horse to kick at a human.

[Polly Aulton]

I'm with you Carol. Again. I want to be able to approach our horses at any time. If they are eating, well, that's just too darn bad. They will NOT kick me or anyone else if I can teach them otherwise.
Polly

[CarolU]

YEp...have to wiegh in with Carol too. Kicking is never to be tolerated. The ONLY time I'll excuse it is if the horse is startled or surprised and kicked in fright (a quick right brain reaction)...otherwise it's a respect issue and they'd better keep their hiney OUT of my face.

[ASB.Immortality]

I have a filly that is 6 months old now, she was a kicker from the time she was born. After she got over the weaning, she got a dose of getting over the kicking at folks also. The last time she offered to kick was at the farrier when he went into the stall to get her (she has been trimmed before & trims very well). She swiftly got a dose of what she was trying to give. She whirled to kick & he planted a boot square in her butt. The look on her face was priceless! She turned and looked in total amazement. The look was "OMG! They kick too!" Ever since then, there hasn't been a problem. :lol:

[Serendipity]

I agree kick needs to be taken care of like right now I would see if she would tie and still kick at Randy if she does you and have him use a crop to rub and tap her legs(not hard)if she kicks then Slap back whit the whip or use a water hose let him tap the leg and as soon as she strickes out disapline with the water jet stream works well and its more of a surprize than a pain so they are still fine to bath.
I would not use kick chains if she is running loose in a feils to much chance of getting caught and if she's loose it give her to much room to move .
we use the whip to tap and bump a horse everywhere we call it Bump Therapy and no kickers in the barn the Hose trick also works well if you have a horse that will lunge over the gate at another.
bad behavor can't be tolorated because even if she does not do it to you what would happed if you and Randy were in the pen and she though you were him and you would not expect to get kick
Its not worth the chance of a broken leg or worse

[ASB.Immortality]

On the kick chains, unless you know your horse well do not use them. We had one that would climb the walls & pitch a massive fit (kicking the walls with everything he had, faster than lightening) at feeding time. My hubby & the Trainer thought "well, let's just put the kick chains on him & see if that won't calm him down". Lord that was mistake. He totally flaked out! He did really go into a fit then. They almost didn't get him caught to take them off. They thought he was going to kill himself. If you use them & don't know the what the horse will do, I would suggest using the plastic chain lengths not the metal. It has shock & surprise value but won't really hurt. If you get her used to that & still have problems then move up to the metal. But as Serendipity said about not using them on a horse in the field, I would stick with that. If you decide to use them, do it when you have her caught up & can keep a close check on her.

[stella]

I'm not saying not to discipline it, once it happens. Believe me, my horses know better than show me a butt, much less foot. But, I DO believe in "setting situations up for success." This situation could’ve been anticipated and avoided, was my point.

There are certain things that can easily be anticipated in our understanding of horses' behavior, and their "culture". I think that’s part of our responsibility as owners to learn, and use this knowledge to help not just ourselves, but others - and the horse ITSELF, succeed in our relationships.
It only takes a moment or two, to THINK AHEAD of what MIGHT happen under the circumstances, and then carefully instruct those people the horse is not really familiar with, especially in the case of a relative newbie to horses, young ones in particular, to tell them just let a horse finish eating FIRST, before trying to handle or befriend it. Even if we ARE the leader, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have mutual respect and empathy, especially if we expect the horse to work willingly and not out of fear.
To me, the described situation made it likely to anticipate this possibility of kicking, especially where there's a previous history. The horse was simply overwhelmed,between a strange person and undiscplined dogs, and got defensive..not because its mean or unruly, but a young horse acting innately, out of survival instinct.

If you let your dogs around your horses in THEIR pasture, and they are not showing respect for the horse's space, and we are not training or disciplining THE DOG to respect the horse's space, and instead, we expect the horse not to react…..well, that’s rather unrealistic and may sow the seeds for REALLY serious problems in the future. Again, its about MUTUAL respect…….not based on “who’s the favorite species,” but more so on each species’ natural role.
By nature, horses innately recognize dogs as predators. That makes it ONLY COMMON SENSE to train THE DOGS. Every living being needs an area where it feels safe, that we might call “home,” and we need to preserve such a place for horses too, not just our dogs and ourselves.
If we’re really going to act like their “leaders,” then like their herd leaders, we must also protect their feeling of safety and security, their “home,” from whatever threats THEY perceive…..even if we “know” the dog isn’t intending to hurt the horse. (not that it still cant, but dog dangers if you don’t train them to respect horses’ space is a separate long thread)

Doing so, you also win their ENTIRE trust, so that they dont ever really feel a NEED to act defensively...and have them truly become the horse you want. I believe its best NOT to put them in situations where they are likely, by nature of being just an ordinary horse, to fail (at least, for us to understand when its premature to put them in certain situations, that they may very well be able to handle later-after you’ve put enough time in with them)......and when we do put them in tight circumstances, to also ACKNOWLEDGE OUR OWN ERRORS, when we make them.

I'm not pointing a finger at Moniece, we ALL make them(even me!). Things will not get better if you don’t think thru and acknowledge the WHOLE situation, because its not a matter of just reacting to extinguish the SYMPTOM, but MORE IMPORTANTLY, remedying THE CAUSE, too.

Do you think that if you put kick chains on her, whip her, etc. but dont stop putting her in situations where she feels a need to be defensive, that the result will be a sweet mannerly horse? Even if the kicking stops, some other form of defensiveness will replace it, and quite frankly, it could be even more dangerous.

[Moniece Dickerson]

I completely agree,the dogs have no business being in the horses space and i'll be working on that with them.The problem I have is that Chica is below myself and Cola and sees no reason she should have to be under Randy to when he has not shown her she is.She thinks he's below her,he thinks she's below him.She will push and bully any being she feels is under her.Randy does not understand all of this herd placement and respect stuff and thinks it's all a bunch of hooey and that Chica,and any horse for that matter,should just be mannerly around him because he's a person and she's a horse and in his eyes she should know people are over horses so she should just automatically give him respect and be mannerly.Now,the ideal situation would be for Randy to start working with the horses or stay out of the pasture but that is not going to happen SO Chica has to learn she can not kick at Randy.I was hoping that I could teach her no kicking,not even at someone she feels is lower than her but it sounds like Randy will have to teach her he will not tollerate kicking.And now that I have this stiuation Randy will have to either decide to take instruction from me and work with her,he HATES taking instruction from me,or decide iron it out with her and not come whining to me if she gets him good.Thanks you all,i'll let you know how it turns out!Moniece

[motorgypsy]

Moniece it sounds like you have to figure a way to keep him away from her because if and when she hurts him badly it is probable that he will either shoot her or insist that you get rid of her and it's not her fault. She's caught in a human power struggle and she's going to be the victim.

You might ask him if he would get in front of an automobile rolling down a steep hill with no driver. Of course he wouldn't. And yet he's doing exactly the same thing with this horse who weighs as much as an automobile. She's hard wired to behave in a certain way. He can change her wiring but he has to do it and do it right.

If you get RFD TV perhaps you can get him to watch a Clinton Anderson show since they are hilarious yet teach you so much about horse behavior and how to modify it. Or maybe you can get him to take you to one of his clinics for your birthday or anniversary or something. DON'T take him to Parelli unless he's seen a video first and likes it because a lot of guys think he's silly.

[finolover]

the mule lady on rfd-tv ties up the mule,tickles with a whip and provokes a kick.. then instantly shouts NO as she whacks the mule below the hocks...it works fer her...

at feeding time i withhold the the grain until i get to touch a nose..then i go away...find my sixteen foot whip and stand outside the corral...as mediator...so far none have felt the whip...i just show it to the trouble maker ;-)