Clinton Anderson vs. ? [Archive] - American Paso Finos.com Forums

motorgypsy

12-21-2006, 05:22 AM

Haven't seen him in person but we really like him also. Plus he's hilarious!!! What I do like about him is his willingness to give several other methods of accomplishing the same goal in addition to the ones he shows. I also like the trick rider trainer he had on his show a couple of times. That was fascinating. We also like Dennis Reis sp? And Pat Parelli is really not bad either. I just don't like the rock concert atmosphere of his shows and the cutesy names for his step by step lessons. We've seen John Lyons (good but boring), Chris Cox (not bad) and a couple of others in person as well as Pat Parelli. There's a guy named ??? Walker that I seem to remember is quite good. We've also watched Richard Shrake on TV but he was geared an awful lot to showing QH's. He did have some great stuff on one show about how to select a good horse both for conformation and disposition. Exceedingly useful and interesting. I'd love to see Clinton Anderson in person.

Trudy

12-21-2006, 05:44 AM

He is the best we have seen Sandy. We have seen him a couple times and would go any chance we had. Had tickets for the full weekend this past summer and we had a baby born, people here to buy a horse and only made it for a few hours each day. Trudy

cowboy ed

12-21-2006, 11:24 AM

sandy, i attended one of his three day clinics in 2003, when he was in marianna, florida. it was the best time, money and effort i ever put into horse training. i like his methods because of the reasons you listed, sensible, practical, and they work very well.
the clinic was three full days of work, not playing around. we did ground work in the mornings and rode in the afternoons.

echo

12-21-2006, 12:29 PM

Sandy,
I got to go to one day of one in Asheville NC a couple of years ago, and really enjoyed it. He's very "meat and potatoes', no fluff. I like his methods and his teaching DVD's. I think taking a horse to work and being a participant instead of an observer would be excellent.

JennLM

12-21-2006, 02:03 PM

I know he's got dates up but for nowhere near us. AZ was the closest to us. Still an all day trip driving back and forth. We really wanted to go see him. He's not boring.

We watch him on RFD-TV too. He's hilarious alright and has some choice words for the horses which busts my gut. He gets bleeped as well which cracks me up.

hast

12-21-2006, 02:28 PM

I too rode in one of his 3 days clinics. It was great, I enjoyed it very much and agree with Cowboyed that he is very sensible. The best thing was that i really felt that he considered the horse... Michico is a "class A" brio Paso, and gets a bit ...excited :roll: at times. Michico (by Clinton dubbed "the Fruitcake" dragged him 3 laps around the arena (in Ocala where the paso shows usually are. it's a big arena.) Michico can powerback with the best of them :roll: but Clinton handled him very well IMO.

Terry Wallace

12-21-2006, 02:36 PM

To me...Clinton is the best "big name" going.... he is a no-nonsense trainer, and it is no wonder that he wins the training "competitions" among the other big name trainers.

Last week, I saw an interview of him, and it showed his place. He had what he called "Patience Poles".... and I will sure be welding up two of those shortly.... they are a great idea. I just need to figure out how the swivel at the top of the pole works...Anybody here seen one up close?

It will be great having crossties, hitching rails AND patience poles.... I think they will be great for teaching young stock to stand tied....
The safer, the better!

Candice Burger

12-21-2006, 04:50 PM

It's really not a new concept. I've noticed that Clinton is doing his homework. Allot of his techniques are coming from late 18th century/ early 19th century works. There was another topic last year, I think, that talked about another great Clinton remedy that was centuries old. I'd like to see his library....

You don't need to have all the same gear. You can use a tree, good rope, cable, etc. to set the rig up.

Vaqueros used a similar method to teach colts to tie.
I've seen the another version on a clicker tape.
We used a related method to quickly teach colts to tie while out in CA. We rigged with whatever we had available.

My problem with folks following clinicians is that they tend to think they have to precisely follow that design, that technique, etc. What most clinicians don't say is "I designed this based on my needs, my ways, my surroundings". If it works well, then they spread the word, which is fantatistic. But there will be A horse, A place, A time, where the design just can't work "quite" right. That's when knowing the why not the how counts.

The other problem following a clinician is some become dependent on the clinician to devise the next solution instead of relying on that ol' Yankee thinkin' to help themselves out. Seems if it ain't from so-and-so then it ain't so.

And I really do think the term "patience pole" is talking about the human not the horse! :lol: Better learn to knit or bring a good book and have a friend supply meals.

CarolU

12-21-2006, 05:35 PM

I think you are right Candice, almost all this comes from the Vaqueros. I would really LOVE to see nationally, the Vaquero training competitions they hold in California. They are awesome examples of horsemanship, where "horsemanship" IS an artform...not what tricks or speeds or gaits the horse can perform - but the art of training a horse so well. And although some things like Reining and Trick training have taken on a life of their own, they started with the Vaqueros and true Vaquero horsemanship competitions still happen and are still awesome. Anyone who has watched Parelli with Magic has seen a good example of Vaquero trianing.

But, I only agree with you partially about not following one clinician. I think when you are an experienced horseman you can watch them all and pick and choose and learn something from each of them. I agree there are different methods that work better or faster with different types horses., and you have to watch training methods geared exclusively to one breed, and apply it to others. There is no one cookie-cutter method for horse training. But, I DO think when people are first learning and learning to become a horseman, it is critical for them to start with and follow one program step-by-step from start to, if not finish, at least through a well-trained horse. I think people that do otherwise, only use parts from different clinicians, end up with holes in their training and problem horses.

The initial part of all these clinicians is get a good foundation on a horse. Every problem that comes later, balking, refusing, not standing, not walking, rearing, bucking, all these "problem horses" are caused by the same thing, not having a complete foundation when starting the horse.

Every problem that I have ever encountered helping people with Parelli (which I'm most practiced with), is from people who pick their favorite parts to train and go there without following the program to get the foundation layed down first.

As someone who has actually followed a program, even after trianing horses for 30 years, I still learned a lot and know that the step-by-step process is important. As humans, it's too easy to skip through the parts we don't like...like I didn't used to do any groundwork to speak of. Now, it's my favorite part of training. NOW I can watch RFD TV and pick and choose what I like best of Clinton's, Dennis's, Mark's, Chris Cox...etc. I learn from them all. And I can use them all...they just add more knowledge.

Candice Burger

12-21-2006, 05:53 PM

I agree with what you are saying Carol.

The art of training is the art of learning and you should learn from the best! No novice deserves to be left alone to try things on their own. That's not the "way".

BUT, where we part is when I'm speaking about folks that never wean themselves away from clinics. And I don't mean never go to another one. I'm talking logic here. I'm a big believer in education no matter how you get it. Books, videos, college classes, internet courses, clinics, you name it, I've done it. I've got a video series of a clinic by Ray Hunt. Who were the students? Guess. Brannaman, Bridges, Parelli, etc. so no one ever stops learning

In my opinion novices need to go to clinics with a SAFE horse. That means not one they are trying to train while they learn horsemanship, but one that is already finished. That's how they learn, by being able to focus on one thing at a time. The horse helps to teach instead of being taught. How many times have we both seen novice riders get on a finished horse and really make a mess of things?

I do see your point though. Time was a trainer rode to satisfy himself and a horseman gave the trainer his due. Nowadays, there are few horses finished and few trainers willing to spend the amount of time for one horse to get him that way. Most people don't have a inkling of the time they've got to put in a saddle to get a horse tuned. So they go to clinics thinking that in a few months they'll have a demo horse. Maybe, but probably not because it isn't just the horse that is learning.

CarolU

12-21-2006, 06:30 PM

It's kind of funny about people who go to clinics. Being like Terry, a clinic junkie, I go to a lot. Part of what I like about RFDTV, it brings clinics to ME!! :-) I have done Parelli now for several years, go to the seminars, go to clinics, and even the symposium. There are all kinds of people, but they fall into a few distinct catagories.

The funniest ones are those you would call "groupies," who dress, live, talk and breath Parelli (mostly women and I believe they emulate Linda and not Pat). Lots of money in this, the merchandizing to these people is awesome.

Then there are those who are hooked on the horsemanship and go through the school program and become instructors. I have a lot of respect for these people. They've dedicated their lives to becoming professionals and learning 'how to' right. Lots of men do this and a lot of international students.

Then there are those like me, who have had lots of horses and lots of experience and they build with the program. I see a lot of 'cowboys' there, learning natural horsemanship to change the way they 'break' horses. This is the part of Parelli where I forgive all the rest. This change in the way most horses are 'broken' has been nothing but great for horses. A lot of abuse is gone and no longer tolerated in mainstream horse circles.

Then there is a group, and I think these are those you were refering to, who have learned everything they know from Parelli, and are pretty afraid to try anything differently. I know several women like this, who got horses later in life, have learned to be fairly proficient and safe this way, but don't have the self confidence to go beyond or outside the program. There are several who come to our clinics, and they are almost 'shocked' that I do many non-Parelli things, and use non-Parelli tack on my horses -- and still do the program fine. I don't know that this is a fault of the program or if it's a basic human condition for some people to be dependent and lack confidence in themselves and what they've learned. These women are surprised when I tell them they are much better horsemen then they think they are. Many are very capable and have done a great job with their horses. But they would never dream of doing something without 'clearing it' with our local instructor first.

There is also one other group...and I meet these people all over. They watch it on TV, some go to the weekend symposium, and some might even go so far as to buy the Level I kit. But, that is as far as it goes. They don't read, study, watch the videos, or put into practice what has been taught. In a few months they bad-mouth the whole program because IT didn't train their horse. I've even seen them sell the Level I kit - still in it's celophane!!! - because it didn't work. Imagine that.
:lol:

I agree with you wholeheartedly Candice, learning horsemanship is a life-long endeavor. There is always more to learn.

Terry Wallace

12-21-2006, 06:42 PM

I think the pole is a great idea.....I had never seen one before.
All I need to know...is how is the swivel designed?

Oh no!!...that patience pole isn't for "people"....it is for horses...just like tying one to a crosstie, or hitching rail, or tree, or whatever... but it is far SAFER than tying to a tree which does not swivel, or a crosstie which does not permit flexing movements "around" it....or a hitching rail which also limits movement... it certainly will teach a horse patience....they really have no other choice.

I'm anxious to try one...I think it will be great.... I have no problem trying out what I think to be a good idea used by other trainers....
;-)

CarolU

12-21-2006, 06:48 PM

BTW Candice...we don't have big trees here. LOL

Terry Wallace

12-21-2006, 06:54 PM

No big trees here either!

I'll probably have to take my hay trailer down to Western Scrap to procure a couple of light poles... then...set them in concrete...the patience poles looked to be around 10 feet tall...hard to say...but pretty darn tall..ANYBODY know HOW TALL?

Does Clinton have Email???????

Candice Burger

12-21-2006, 07:37 PM

:lol: :lol: Obviously or you would get my drift Terry. The rig is not a hard fast tie around a tree base or limb. Maybe there aren't many trees with Clinton lives either. :confused

You can throw a rope or cable over a tree limb and then pull it down to the horse. Depending on how much give you want in the tree or how strong the horse is, will determine your weapon of choice. Once the rope is at the right height then you add an inner tube with some give and a tie that swivels. We copied our rig from a reprint of a 1880's publication. We fine tuned some of the design so that it was a little safer for the horse. In this rig, the horse is tied directly to the rope. First lesson or so, we would keep a lead line on just in case.

The tree limb is high enough that the horse has complete freedom to move within reason; he just can't go anywhere and has to respect the pressure. We used it because is was faster, safer than teaching colts with a hard fast tie; no way to get a leg or head caught or breaking a leg, jaw, or neck. Rigged with some thought, a person can feed the rope back and forth for some difficult horses. The rig I saw on a clicker tape was really neat because they used what I described and then fed the lead line from the horse through a large ring at the end. The ring made it easier to lengthen or shorten the rope.

Earnest Morris talks of the same type of rig used by CA vaqueros at the turn of the century for teaching colts to tie. I like it because it saves the head and neck of the horse and they learn patience.

I think you can contact Clinton and ask for plans for the patience pole. Surely his website has contact info.

(P.S. Clinton doesn't have problems "borrowing" either; and niether do the rest... :razz: That's why things survive from one generation to the next. They weren't born with this knowledge; there's no gene for it! I copy, steal ideas all the time. Not sure if the theft made me a better person, but certainly my horses appreciated it! :razz: )

(P.S.S. I'm a big-time junkie of any clinic I can go to too. My only limit is time and money.)

Candice Burger

12-21-2006, 08:12 PM

Then there is a group, and I think these are those you were refering to, who have learned everything they know from Parelli, and are pretty afraid to try anything differently. I know several women like this, who got horses later in life, have learned to be fairly proficient and safe this way, but don't have the self confidence to go beyond or outside the program. There are several who come to our clinics, and they are almost 'shocked' that I do many non-Parelli things, and use non-Parelli tack on my horses -- and still do the program fine. I don't know that this is a fault of the program or if it's a basic human condition for some people to be dependent and lack confidence in themselves and what they've learned. These women are surprised when I tell them they are much better horsemen then they think they are. Many are very capable and have done a great job with their horses. But they would never dream of doing something without 'clearing it' with our local instructor first.

Those are the ones all right. I don't think it's the fault of the clinicians either. I believe most clinicians want to never see repeat customers that can't seem to get off the ride or don't really develop out. I think most want to see that something clicked in the human brain. They probably want to see the repeats coming back to get the little things and for a tune up, not because they haven't progressed one second after the clinic.

I'm almost ok with that. Shame of it is, they think getting stuck is just them. Everyone gets stuck, they've all been tossed, bumped, dumped. As Ray Hunt said in his clinic, "if you ride, it's going to happen, get over it". Ray's clinics aren't very forgiving I hear.

Brannaman's clinics aren't that friendly either. He even cursed on a tape and wasn't always polite about his thoughts. Got a little irritated too. I think for shock value trying to get folks to get off the teat.

Maybe it's just me about some of this. I'm not too warm and fuzzy about warm and fuzzy clinics. I'm not there to be pandered to. So maybe I need to stick to a clinic like Ray's where I hear he makes grown cowboys cry or Brannaman that isn't afraid to say #### and %%%% or !@#@$)#$$. Sure can't do enough rhyme to take a Parelli clinic. At least I know how to cuss.

Terry Wallace

12-21-2006, 09:55 PM

Oh C'mon Candice....all any real "trainer" needs is a CARROT STICK anyway!!!

hehehehehe!!!! :twisted:

britzlove

12-21-2006, 11:14 PM

This has really been a day of awesome discussion, how the heck are we finding the time? Procrastinating on Christmas prep? Well, that's me here.

Anyway, I can't go back and try to point to everyone who has said similar stuff but I will say there are a few shared opinions for me.

My opinion specifically with regard to Clinton Anderson is that his #1 strength is his ability to communicate. He is a very, very good teacher. Other strengths, uh, beyond the obviously very sexy accent, he stresses learning all you can, and he will often mention going to as many people who will teach you something. Also, he is very practiced, it is clear inarguably that he spends ALOT of time everyday with horses. I like his methodology....however.....the fundamental background is not new at all. He has taken all the pieces of others teachings and made it work for him. His faults? He is very handy with that lead and just doesn't stress enough that people need to practice with it, preferably on an already very broke, level headed horse. I am sure if we searched we'd find people who bash him, and say the stuff doesn't work and I'd almost put money on it that a high percentage of those people couldn't get that rope to work quite like he can. That, and the afore mentioned idea that any "system" needs to be adapted to every single horse.

That said, I don't believe in a system. I believe in doing like he did and learning everything you can about training horses

For anyone interested in learning more about the vaquero tradition a good place to start is the links on Ed Connells website among others. Ed's books are right next to Bill's (discussed later) in my living room. An important note: Ed's books have to be read with some knowledge of general horsemanship and the language because of it's historical context can be hard to stumble through. Like Shakespeare, you need to be able to translate a little based on time in history of language.
Ed Connell
http://www.hackamore-reinsman.com/

The one true heart of all the newbies-this "respond to pressure" move their feet, all of that...I have read his book over and over and over again....WAY before any of the other mentioned trainers, before Parelli, Clinton, Buck, many of them were even twinkles in their pops eyes. I refer to it several times a year I'm sure. And there's even a yahoo group that studies it. Bill Dorrance, and his brother Tom, they are my inspiration because they truly learned this through time spent trying to figure out a better way. Anyhow...if interested research them:
http://www.billdorrance.net/about.htm
http://www.tomdorrance.com/
I'm tearing up...such a big baby. But they're my heros.

Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling, Dancing with Horses, I rented this when a local tack store used to rent out DVDs and videos, (great idea, and I loved it but you can guess why they don't do it anymore). And I also rented the entire series by Buck Brannaman, enough times probably to have bought it. I do own one of his videos and his autobiography. He's a Dorrance student mainly, but if you read his autobiography you'll see like Clinton, he uses whatever he can from whoever may have taught him.

Well, another novel instead of a tree....ah...it'll maybe put itself up right?

Oh, before I forget....Candice...I second the 18th,19th century thing but few are very willing to go that far back...gets even more complicated, or for that matter going backwards, read Xenephon. We truly have to meet for coffee one of these days.

Britz

britzlove

12-21-2006, 11:16 PM

:hug for Sandy M for starting this thread!

Candice Burger

12-21-2006, 11:22 PM

:lol: :lol:

No, Terry, I have a "Fred" stick, remember? I couldn't come up with a name so Cindy named it for me.

Now Fred has company. A short white stick and one that is longer and lighter better balanced. I can only remember one name so they are all Freds.

Last time I picked one up at the feed store some gal wanted to know what I was doing with it. And you could tell by her tone that she thought I was beating my horses. So I told her that I beat my horses with it. And I threw in a few good Brannaman words just to prove it. We both left satisfied.

Ed's books are the first books I ever picked up about Vaquero training. With a few minor exceptions, that's the paso way. I got so excited when I read "Hackamore Reinsman" I immediately bought the second one. For the price, you can't beat it. It's chock full information. I do give it a huge thumbs down because it's not easy to follow and not easy to read. Neither is Ray Hunt's book and neither is Tom Dorrances' book. They don't talk about methods, they talk about philosophy. I'm a huge fan of that way of thinking when it comes to training. Bill Dorrance's book is like reading a translation. He says something then Leslie spends 3 pages translating his one sentence. That's how powerful these little books are and why they are difficult to follow.

What amazes me more than anything is that I was introduced to this philosophy by a TN Walking horse trainer who probably never heard of these guys. And I've read several dressage masters who have similar approaches.

Every now and then even the best have some tricks that aren't really nice. Even Clinton gets a raspberry for promoting shock collars. He otta be promoting better management to prevent the behavioral problem. That's when relying on your gut instincts help out. If it ain't right for you, it ain't right; who cares who says it was. I'd rather figure out why horses do what they do and stop the action before it starts than rely on a technique that doesn't get to the root of the problem.

And I don't care for this black/white judgemental thing. So, ok, I'd like to put ol' Clinton in a stall and shock his 'nads off for promoting a device like that. And I'd love to have John Lyons recant his blind endorsement with pen panels as safe and permanent replacements for stalls and paddocks, but that doesn't mean everything else isn't worth doing.

Terry Wallace

12-21-2006, 11:35 PM

Hey! Come to think of it....I DO remember Cindy naming your SCHTICK !!
I think my stick is a "Wilma"...willful Wilma!
Alas...she has NO cord to dangle the carrot...I best macrame' one up!

motorgypsy

12-21-2006, 11:43 PM

Since I grew up at the coast I have a nice balanced carbon fibre heavy duty fishing pole that's my extra long arm and hand. I tie a thin rope through the loop in the end if I need a dangler.

My thanks go to KBR ranch website and all their wonderful training stuff including clicker. Willis Lamm who also trains BLM mustangs and wild burros has some of the best no nonsense smart techniques to keep yourself and the horse from getting hurt but still allowing you to do what you want to do with them. This website and of course the paso fino forum provided the information that gave us the breakthrough with Chinook.

And yes I love all the clinics too and go as often as I can. I've heard Clinton Anderson give credit to many older trainers. One thing he does caution though is skipping steps. For example he says you don't start getting on the horse when they still spook when you drag leadline across them. You just keep on working with them until they're fine with and then go to the next level. You skip steps and you get hurt.

Candice Burger

12-21-2006, 11:48 PM

Nope Fred. I can't say Schtick when I'm spitting mad. Fred works better for me. Honestly when I get mad I can't remember the name of the horse either, so Fred is good. They probably think their names are "quit that" or "get the #### in there" or "you #$#$#" or "@@@@ it".

I don't think I'm taken very seriously sometimes. Whoever says a horse can't laugh never met mine.

Cindy

12-22-2006, 01:21 AM

Mine think their names are "YOU STUPID PIECE IF $#@%" when they are bad and "Good boy/girl" when they are good. Sometimes I think they have contests to see who can get me to call them the former and then they all laugh at me. I should start using Fred. That would sound much better. And I now have a new pet name in my barn. Dave, are you reading? It's "Stupid pinto." As I now have a plethora of pintos that Parelli wound be proud to ponder. :twisted: But don't worry, Dave, many times they are called "Good pinto". Other times simply little pinto or big pinto and sometimes pinta.

Terry, I have never seen this pole thing that you speak of but I used to have a metal pole in the round pen at one place that I worked that had a spinning thing on the top of it. It was very handy. The spinning thing on the top was made from a car wheel axle and had a piece of rounded metal welded to it to put the rope through.

Abejita

12-22-2006, 01:39 AM

Cindy we had the same pole thing here..our 'spinning thing was just another piece of pipe the next size smaller with an old horse shoe welded to it for a place to tie the rope..it would spin around inside the other pipe...

reuben T

12-22-2006, 01:52 AM

for someone wanting to learn horse training I recommend spending lots of time watching horses, (if they havn't already) and watching all of Marv Walkers videos. That's because he's getting the basic how's and why's of training very plain and practical, and he sells them much cheaper than the others do. Then go on and learn from all the other trainers out there that they can get info on.
I started out with horses and knowing nothing, the first organized method I dug into was Jessie Beerys when a relative gave me a set of his original books printed in 1908. Then I got a few videos, went to the horse fair and other venues and watched trainers, That's where I saw Parrelli. Listened to Richard Shrake and got all his videos. Read books of Jack Brainard, Al Dunning, (reining) etc. Read Manty's book. (of course the KBR site too) And Then I ran into Marv. Read his website through and got his videos. After watching them I finally understood the basic theory behind training, then I rewatched some of the previous videos, went to more training events, and discovered I could understand much better what was being done and do it effectivly. I could see why Beerys method worked even though it was totally different than modern methods. All the training methods that work are based on the same principal, even if the actual tecniques vary greatly. And once I understood that principal, and having done enough horse watching to be able to read their language, my ability in training went way up. I end up using a bit from all the trainers that I've learned from according to the needs of the situation.
The only place I've seen Clint A. is the road to the horse last year where he did a training demonstration of his own seperate from the main competition, (because he wasn't in it that time). And he was about as good as anyone I've seen. Although I've not seen him enough to know how well he explains the basic concepts of herd psychology that Marv does so well with. It's so simple, but for some reason I just wasn't getting it untill I heard Marv. Then I saw a mare doing the exact same thing with her foal that Marv teaches how to do, and it was obvious what she was doing. It may be that some people get the idea easier than I do, but I suspect a lot of people arn't any different than me. Some may be going to great lengths following a leader and not understanding the reasons behind the method.

CarolU

12-22-2006, 01:54 AM

See, now you know why the gurus can charge the big bucks. "Patience Pole" sounds much more savy then "Spinning thing". ;-)

Terry Wallace

12-22-2006, 02:00 AM

Hey CarolU...did you ever buy the "Beery" books? I had a whole set when I was maybe 13 years old....surely you did too? I never did get the "gag" bridle he sold as his "gimmic device"

CarolU

12-22-2006, 02:13 AM

No, can't say that I did. I was in 4-H when I was young and my original 'clinician' was my 4-H leader, who I have to admit was incredible. I was very lucky. My next clinician was Noel Skinner, who trained at a big QH ranch in the small town where our ranch was. He is still a premier reining and cutting horse trainer.

I don't remember buying a book on horse training until YEARS later, and Noel Skinner's book was my first. I also had the original Richard Shrake "Resistence Free Training" videos. All of my early training was geared to cutting and reining horses. That is why I was SOOOO disapointed that Paso Finos didn't "DO" anything. LOL

Cindy

12-22-2006, 02:45 AM

See, now you know why the gurus can charge the big bucks. "Patience Pole" sounds much more savy then "Spinning thing".

Yeah, well, the bigs bucks are not for me anyway. I prefer hanging out with my horses than doing PR any day.So I'll just call it a spinning thing and be happy here in my backyard where I can sleep in my own bed and the only people that I have to deal with all day long are my family and my horses. Every time I venture out into the world of people it only makes me realize why I have never particularly cared for the race.

motorgypsy

12-22-2006, 03:11 AM

Well Cindy as long as you can speak "equus" you can forget public relations. I saddled and bitted Silken two days ago. She did great until the longe line went between her hind legs, then she did one spook and two big bucks. But I did all this without having to hold her and she was in a large arena. And she settled right down while I worked her a bit from the ground asking for turns and different speeds and then to come to me. I was so proud of her. This is a new place for her .

And Lula and Kalua are doing great also. I hadn't ridden Kalua for probably six months and got on her a couple of days ago totally cold - no longing or anything. She was fearful because she had never been out of the pasture at this new boarding barn so I kept her really busy going around the outside of a round pen and doing lots of circles and in about ten minutes she was perfect. We rode all over the place. Now that's what I call a well trained horse. One you can pull out of the pasture after months and they're ready to ride even in a scary place.

And these guys aren't dead heads either. They have lots of spunk and strong opinions but are still quite respectful and great rides.

What I want to know though is how you part with them after you train them???

Candice Burger

12-22-2006, 02:20 PM

Yeah, well, the bigs bucks are not for me anyway. I prefer hanging out with my horses than doing PR any day.So I'll just call it a spinning thing and be happy here in my backyard where I can sleep in my own bed and the only people that I have to deal with all day long are my family and my horses. Every time I venture out into the world of people it only makes me realize why I have never particularly cared for the race.

Me neither. Every time I take pause to venture out I'm reminded how good I have it not knowing. Life is good when it's just me and my horses.

Reuben's got the idea though. Think about it. Clinicians teach what they learned from horses. So, whenever a person learns from a clinician all they've done is put in some extra noise between them and their horses. The tradition of sharing what someone learns from his horse is what a gathering of horsemen is suppose to be about. Someone picks up a few things from a horse and when another comes along with similar problems, they trade ideas and methods. The guy goes home and tailors it to his way of doing things and his horse and then passes it along to the next person. That's a clinic. Sometimes something may work for a guy that won't ever work with another because of the way it's done or because it's too specific. That's the danger of clinics. A person has to have enough sense to know that they aren't capable or that it won't work because the horse isn't ready for it.

Over the years I've gotten several correspondences about the John Lyons' round penning method of making a horse move out until he realizes it's less work to do what the person wants. I saw that one time and there's no way I'd push a paso like that. Maybe a dull headed whatever, but most pasos I know don't respond like that. I can't recall how many people told me they tried that and the horse freaked and wouldn't stop. Well, they weren't listening to the right thing. They dummied up to Johnny instead of listening to where their horse was at. Done with too much force, the owner now has a freaked out horse that will take weeks or even months to bring back again. Maybe John Lyons could read the horse and modify his technique, but how is a person who doesn't even know his own horse suppose to figure it out? And how does one know how much a clinician has modified his technique when you only see him with a few horses for a few days? It takes MORE expertise to watch both the clinician and the horse he's working to understand what's changed and why.

I watched a Brannaman tape (Carol heart Parelli, I love Brannaman) where he started a young stallion differently than the rest. He said he could tell that the horse was going to be hard to turn so he changed his technique. Now I wonder how many at the clinic could read the stallion the same way. And I wonder if the stallion hadn't been part of the clinic would his techinque modification even been seen? What would the stallion owner try when he got home? Why the only technique he saw at the clinic.

I spend allot of time just watching my horses and have since I've owned one. Al laughs at me allot when I'll stand there for a hour or so just gazing out. It tells me about that horse. My pasture is my best clinic.

Cindy

12-22-2006, 02:37 PM

What I want to know though is how you part with them after you train them???

With some of them it is very hard. With others it is very easy. :lol:

Yeah, Candice, that turn them lose in the round pen and run them till them stop thing does NOT work with Paso Finos. Not unless you already have a handle on them and they know how to be people horses already. They will run till they drop. Most definitely not a healthy thing to do with one.

cowboy ed

12-22-2006, 02:38 PM

well, i do "clinics" here for friends of mine. i stay about as busy as i want to with it. i dont think i will ever hit the "big time", but that isnt what i want anyway. i just like helping people with their horses, and i also like helping horses with people.

and yes, it is important to be able to read each individual horse and make some adaptations for temperament. for the most part, a standard routine type of ground work and under saddle training works well for the vast majority of horses, regardless of the breed. although there is a lot of truth to the statements that most of this stuff is not new, that horse gentling/training has gone on for centuries, it IS new to those who dont know it!

CarolU

12-22-2006, 02:40 PM

There you go Candice, putting in words what I like about Parelli. They put the emphasis on reading horses and understanding them, rather then on accomplishing a goal. The goal is really the tool you use to understand and develop the horse, rather then accomplish the goal...and yes, the program talks about different types of horses and doing things differently with different types. It's changed a lot and is a very good program now.

I don't think any program replaces time spent with horses. You can only learn so much at a clinic or watching a video. Then you have to go out and APPLY it, but know that you and the horse are in a learning situation. Be adaptable, be willing to change. Know that your horse is going to and you have to adapt for them. Keep in interesting, mix challenge and relaxation.

Candice Burger

12-22-2006, 03:42 PM

:lol: It was a joke Carol. Lighten up. If you want to get back at me say something mean about Brannaman; but cuss-free or I'll think you're a closet fan. I wasn't talking about Parelli's methods or clinics but about the danger of clinics as a whole for folks who don't take the time to do what Reuben does. Just watch and let the horse be the teacher.

I was ditzing John Lyons for his round penning technique. I noticed he's lightened up in the last few years. I also know he got mowed down a couple of times and badly hurt for refusing to alter his technique for the horse. He forgot what it was about and got a sharp reminder. But like Hunt said "get over it, it'll happen". I got mowed down a few months ago for my arrogance; nice whiplash case. It happens. But I know enough to understand that I set myself up to get hurt and the colt is still as honest and noble as ever.

Yes ed it is new because there's always going to be folks who are buying horses and learning. Like I said, it's "new" because people die and can't live centuries to teach the next 3 generations. And because we aren't born with a horse between our legs, riding 9 months in the womb while our mothers played Tom Dorrance's inspirational tape to us with a "gene" for training horses that kicks in when we're born. We all start somewhere.

Jasfino

12-22-2006, 05:20 PM

Clinton Anderson is great.. but my favorite is Dennis Reis.

motorgypsy

12-23-2006, 03:48 AM

We're another example of people who tried John Lyons round penning techniques and discovered that a paso fino can run forever. The only thing Chinook would ever do in a round pen was gallop wildly around forever. Honestly I don't think she ever got tired but I sure did. So much for that technique. Of course all along I was over cuing her. But what do you expect from someone who learned on first, unbroke ponies, then friends' dead broke QH's, then rental horses who wouldn't budge. She taught me soon though that I was yelling and I learned to whisper! and she said thank you very much! ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Silken is really different. She shows you she's tense not only by being high headed which she pretty much is naturally, but she kind up tightens up her ears and pulls them together in the upright position. It's weird.

Minouri

03-03-2007, 01:54 PM

I wish I had the horse channel here (sigh). I've only seen Clinton Anderson at the Expo shows. I wanted to buy his videos but they were pricey. I'm dragging Tony to see him next time around because he makes horse training sessions a joy to listen to.

I love when his mimicks his clients and gives them tough love advice. He's like the Judge Judy of horse training.

CarolU

03-03-2007, 02:20 PM

Ruth, if you put the cost of the videos in the perspective of what it costs to send a horse to a professional for triaining, the videos (or DVDs) are a bargain. Not just that but YOU are learning to be a better horseman, and the things taught in the video, you can use on horse after horse for years to come. Kind of like a Master's Degree in teaching horses, instead of children.

I find the weekend clinics to be educational...but more then that, inspirational. When you see how the horse's work, and think that ANY person can do that with ANY horse...all it takes is investing the money in the education materials and equipment, and in time with your horse.

Cindy

03-03-2007, 04:09 PM

When you see how the horse's work, and think that ANY person can do that with ANY horse...all it takes is investing the money in the education materials and equipment, and in time with your horse

See, that is the problem. Any person can't just do that with any horse. Some people just do not have the talent for horses and will never be able to train one even though they can easily handle trained horses. And there are some horses that will never be easy to handle by other than very experienced horse people. It is great that these trainers have good methods to educate people about horse training. But making people think that anyone can be a horse trainer gets horses and people hurt. Some people can train their own horses, others can't. And no matter how many times one works with old Bessie following Sr. trainers training technics, there is no substitute for the knowledge that decades of working with hundreds of different horses gives to a trainer.

Pasogirlz

03-03-2007, 04:15 PM

CarolU

03-03-2007, 04:27 PM

LynnG

03-03-2007, 04:44 PM

I was thinking of making a new post about this...but this thread will do.

My problem with folks following clinicians is that they tend to think they have to precisely follow that design, that technique, etc. What most clinicians don't say is "I designed this based on my needs, my ways, my surroundings". If it works well, then they spread the word, which is fantatistic. But there will be A horse, A place, A time, where the design just can't work "quite" right. That's when knowing the why not the how counts.

The other problem following a clinician is some become dependent on the clinician to devise the next solution instead of relying on that ol' Yankee thinkin' to help themselves out. Seems if it ain't from so-and-so then it ain't so.

I have a mid-30's woman student who has been taking riding lessons for about 8 months. She was and still is basicly a newbie..advanced beginner rider now. I questioned her a few days ago as she has been taking lessons less and less (going on 3 months now since a lesson), and maybe comes out and sees her horse boarded here for an hour or so once a week. I asked her what she intended to do and her goals towards horses. She is having changes and not happy with her current sales job, plus having other family issues. I told her that she always seemed to be very happy riding and learning. Okay, here it is her long term goal is to be a certified Monty Roberts horse trainer...she said it would take I don't recall (as I was so very surprised)... either nine years or $9K to do this.

So I started to think why do women (mostly) seem to get so "hooked" on these natural "horsemanship" trainers/clinicians. Most seem to be more towards middle age (she's on the young end), and are often on the novice side. They and "she" worship the ground the person walks on. I get to hear... "well this is the way Monty does it." They study the books and DVD, but just aren't always clear when it doesn't work and get frustrated...and then won't always ask for a differing opinion. (okay I feel for the horse here more).

It goes back to my student was going to train her gelding step by step the Monty Roberts DVD way. I was like, "okay". Now I reminded her what she said last fall she said she was going to be coming out and working him 2-3 times a week. This past week... I hear "I don't know how to train him" and don't know if I will have that much time.

SO meanwhile "the Trainer" got some good money from her for a "special" halter, lungeline, books and DVD package. I told her it isn't hard to train him to ride, but you have to be able to make the time to work with him more then once a week. So we will most likely switch off riding lessons for training lessons done "my no-frills common sense LG way".

I will have to give her some tuff luv stuff when it comes to horses...you got to be able to make the time if it is something you want to do. Experience, time and hands on is the best teacher, along with someone for guidance besides a DVD. BUT then the person has to want to do it...make the commitment.

Okay..now big laugh! I haven't read this entire thread before posting. Only page 1, but wanted to post before reading all of it....... haha

For me...
The horses are actually my best teachers (my own mainly as each one can generally be quite different), and you have to know how to listen to what they are telling you! Some may whisper, but you got to know how to listen.

LynnG

03-03-2007, 04:55 PM

okay.. I have gone back and skimmed the posts...... chuckle.

I have seen brand name trainer videos for sale much cheaper recycled at tack exchange sales, and on ebay and amazon.com. For those buying trainer videos, check out these resources first. I have been watching some European dressage trainer videos lately on cold winter nights..some bought new and some bought used..they play the same. Some horse trainer videos will put you to sleep literally. Guess that is the matter of dynamics of a long day, a cold night, a warm fire, relaxing laying on the couch under a fleece blanket and a monotonous speaker tone.

;-)

CarolU

03-03-2007, 05:36 PM

I do think that any person who decides to get into horses NEEDS lessons. Whether they are from a professional trainer, instructor, or done via home study DVDs, should be based on how the person learns best. Some people learn better by books, some by seeing videos, and others only hands on. Most of us who grew up with horses learned about them at someone older's elbow. No one is born knowing it, although I do believe certain personality types are better equiped to learn from horses then others.

Lynn, I saw an article on that subject a few years ago..don't remember what magazine it was, but it had a statistic that 75% of horse owners are women, but something like 80% of trainers are men. For some reason most women are more comfortable learning from a man, or maybe they feel men are better capable of handling situations they themselves are uncomfortable with. You have to admit that the truely self-confident do-it-ALL-yourself type of woman is fairly uncommon. Most grow up being told they can't do many things. I do believe with new generations this is changing, but it certainly was true of mine. I know they would NOT let me take Shop in High School, and I was the first girl ever who asked to.

Cindy

03-03-2007, 05:46 PM

While I will agree that people who do not APPLY what is taught will not be successful, and yes, there are undoubtedly people who lack the intelligence to learn and apply what they're taught, that could not train a horse...of course they probably aren't smart enough to ride one or take care of one either. I still feel that anyone who is capable of learning CAN train any horse...it is a matter of applying different techniques. I would not suggest they start out with a Bruiser, but I do think that anyone who wants to bad enough CAN get to that level. I've seen it happen.

You really would have to attend the seminars and clinics and actually SEE what people, young and old, handicapped and challenged, have done with their horses with the programs.

I realize there is no convincing some people to accept this,

but it really is true.

I AM NOT SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT YOU PERSONALLY AND PLEASE DO NOT TAKE IT THAT WAY....THIS BB IS FULL OF PEOPLE WHO WORK THEIR OWN HORSES AND ARE PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF BUYING THESE COURSES AND LEARNING AND APPLYING WHAT IS TAUGHT WITHIN.

OK, first of all, it has NOTHING whatsoever to do with intelligence. There are very intelligent and VERY successful people in this world who could NEVER be horse trainers as it is not their talent and they will never accel at it no matter how hard they work and try. And I find it very insulting of you to say that they somehow lack intelligence because of this. That was a very arrogant statement and I am sure very offensive to many people who read this board. I have no talent whatsoever for music. No matter how hard I worked or how much time and dedication I spent to be a good musician, I would never be proficient at it. That does not make me less than intelligent.

And, yes, there are many people who read this board who are highly capable of training their own horses and learning from what is taught by these clinicians. But, then again, they would be just as capable of learning from any other qualified professional who was willing to teach them the art of training a horse. But you said ANTYONE can learn this and that is simply not true. That you think it IS true only shows that you have not been in the business of training horses enough to have seen that it is not true. And to have had to pick up the pieces of a horse's life when the people who have been sold this particular bill of goods has gotten through with them and realized that they were not in fact trainers.

So preach it all you want and think you are right all you want. But don't expect the other side to not be presented right back. I have seen too many people and horses hurt by this thinking to not respond.

CarolU

03-03-2007, 05:57 PM

Cindy, I am not going to quit saying it just because you CHOOSE to be insulted by it. Pat Parelli says it, Clinton Anderson says it, John Lyons says it, etc., and they all have decades of experience teaching all kinds of people how to train their own horses. I'm sorry if you want to be insulted by it, but that is your choicse and there is nothing I can do about it. Anyone who WANTS TO learn it badly enough, can. Period.

CarolU

03-03-2007, 06:17 PM

PS...Music is like art, it is a talent. Something you are BORN with.

Training horses is like writing complete paragraphs and spelling. They are SKILLS, something you learn. You LEARN to train horses, you aren't born with the ability, no one is.

YES, some people have personalities that allow them to learn it easier, to learn to watch and read horses, have more patience, etc., but anyone can learn and practice those skills and do it.

Cindy

03-03-2007, 07:22 PM

Carol, I never said that I was insulted by anything. I am not insulted by anything that you have said. Why would I be? And, as I said, you can go on saying anything that you want to say. And IF the trainers that you have mentioned HAVE INDEED stated that ANYONE can train their own horses, I call them irresponsible. I agree that ANYONE can learn something from these trainers to improve their horse handling abilities. That is far from being able to train a horse. And, yes, some of the people who learn from the trainers can indeed train their own horses. But saying that ANYONE can train a horse is irresponsible and not true.

Horse training is a talent just like everything else in life. One either has a talent for it or one does not. Just like everything else in life. Can anyone ride a horse, pretty much. But riding a horse is not training a horse. Most everyone can also drive a car but there are very few that can win the NASCAR circuit. Why? Because those few have a talent that the rest of us do not have. Can we learn to drive successfully on the interstate? Of course. That does not make us professional drivers.

Perhaps the difference in our opinions involves the way we define the term "horse trainer". I will absolutely agree with you that anyone can teach a horse of any age, even your Bruiser, that has been handled from birth to yield to pressure and stand on a pedestal. If that is what you think of as training, I am in total agreement with you. Anyone can learn to do that. That is not, however, how I define "horse training" or being a "horse trainer". Yes, it is training a horse to do something, but the abilty to teach A horse to do those things does not make one a "horse trainer" by my definition.

What does? A horse trainer can take a 2 year old that has never been touched out of the pasture and successfully train it to all aspects of riding and handling. A horse trainer can take a horse that is dangerous to most people and train it to be a good riding horse. A horse trainer can untrain the bad training of a horse that has been totally mishandled since birth and turn it into a good riding horse. A horse trainer can train ANY horse that is presented to him no matter how difficult that horse is, no matter how old that horse is and no matter what kind of bad training, bad habits and bad temperament have been installed in him over the years of his life without harm to the horse and without harm to himself and without teaching him more bad habits that will have to be untaught by someone else. Until one can do all these things, they are not a horse trainer. This does not mean that they cannot work with their own horse to improve it using the methods learned from a horse trainer. Can some of the people who learn from these clinicians become prficent enough to do all the things that I mentioned, of course they can. And as I said, they would be able to do those thing regardless of who taught them to do them. Can ANYONE become proficient enough at trianing horses to do those things? NOOOO. Some people cannot even safely drive on the interstate.

SandyMM

03-03-2007, 07:40 PM

LOLOLOL - considering the 'Colors' - at least the ones 'assumed' by testing... makes for interesting sideline amusement.... deeee-lightful... :D

Cindy

03-03-2007, 07:54 PM

:rofl Glad to be of service. I do enjoy a good amusement myself.

CarolU

03-03-2007, 07:55 PM

Cindy, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I have not seen one person who wanted to, that actually put in the time to learn and NOT been able to do it, including paraplegics and stroke victims. And I've been going to clinics and conferences for years and met dozens of people. The people I practice with ALL have managed to learn and advance in the program.

You know, I have a neighbor who lives just over a mile from me. He works for the BLM training mustangs and placing them in homes. He routinely teaches people to train their own wild horses. He did a demo with 11 wild horses and 11 new horsemen for the 2002 Olympics here. His goal is not only to adopt out the wild horses, but to make sure the owners suvive the process.

Cindy

03-03-2007, 07:59 PM

Yeah, I have seen how some of those BLM horses that were "trained" by their owners turn out. So your saying that a parapalegic can train a two year old off the range that has never been touched? Or that they can work with the easy going, already trained horse that they own to make a better relationship? If the former, please document this. I want to meet this person.

Oh, and learning and advancing in the program does NOT constitute being a horse trainer. The program is DESIGNED for people to go through the stages. All people. That is how the trainers make money.

CarolU

03-03-2007, 08:21 PM

Of course it is...it is an education program all people can go through the program and become horse trainers. See, I knew you'd come around. ;-)

No, the paraplegic I speak of has a large Fresian who she works out of her electric chair. He sidepasses, piaffes, goes over bridges, lays down next to her, etc.

The whole point with Cliff teaching people to TRAIN their mustangs is so that they do not get hurt. He puts them through the program too. These ones DO turn out, safe and good trail horses. There are some in our BackCountry group.

Nobody learns it all in a day...it's a growing and building process. You don't even learn it all with one horse, because you can't, you have to experience other types of horses.

SandyMM

03-04-2007, 01:10 AM

CarolU

03-04-2007, 03:22 AM

It is amazing to me how people who have never done it, never even tried it, never seen it done with their own eyes can insist it doesn't work - in the face of thousands of people it has worked for. I realize there is no opening a closed mind, but there is no reason to throw ice water on the THOUSANDS of people who want to use it as an education source.

So...please list here your SOLUTION. If you think learning from people who successfully train thousands of people to train their own horses and hundreds to become certified horse trainers, what YOU advise people do instead.

I'm all eyes to read YOUR suggestions to the people who want and need help becoming better horsemen....realizing of course that not all of them grew up with horses and very few of them have the time to sit in the pasture and absorb knowledge directly from horses.

In my experience, it is much easier to read Tom and Bill Dorance's books, Parelli's program, watch Anderson's DVDs, and the others on TV then to spend the hundreds of hours they spent learning horsemanship.

Why should anyone pass up such awesome resources...and just WHAT do you consider better?

Quit shooting holes in proven programs....go ahead, give us all YOUR program to finer horsemanship. Lay it out.

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-04-2007, 04:09 AM

I agreed with Cindy, you need skills and talent before you can call yourself a TRAINER. Now, my question is what type of training? Free-Longing? maybe, but the time will come that a trainers talent is needed. You could be a NATURAL BORN TALENTED horseperson, and communicate with your horse (BOND) but, I dont know, some of those 2,3 and 4 y/o that have never been touched!!!!!!!! you will need more than couching from TV Master Trainer.
I am very successful in dealing and working with my horses, but yet will dared to call myself a trainer.
Some horses will give to their owners out of trust!!!!! and that is fantastic!!!!better said that is REWARDING!!!! but again like Cindy claimed!!!!! To UNDO and DO a horse or better said to WORK with an ABUSED horse and bring him back to TRUST AGAIN under saddle!!!!!!!! YOU WILL NEED A CERTIFIED TRAINER!!!!!!or a person that has dedicated for a very long time to horses, I call the AMATURE TRAINERS.
Too bad we dont CERTIFY trainers in our breed!!!! well that is another THREAD!!!!!

Saludos

CarolU

03-04-2007, 12:17 PM

Well, as far as I know the "TV Masters" are the only ones who produce "CERTIFIED TRAINERS"... :roll:

Carol Nelson has hired a John Lyons certified trainer to train her horses.

Which Paso Fino trainers are certified? I've seen some good ones, I've seen some cruel ones, I've seen many that are way too fat to be on little horses. But I haven't seen any train-the-trainer schools or certificates anywhere.

I will say that none of the natural trainers teach people to push their horses onto the bit, or shorten their stride, or push "collection" from the behind. So, really there is no need for the show PF trainer to feel threatened. Isn't that what this boils down to? Our breed has traditionally always required a "trainer."

CarolU

03-04-2007, 12:30 PM

BTW - I want to thank you guys. I think this explains something to me. This went from a thread discussing the different natural trainers, the pros and cons of each - a good DISCUSSION - to an all out attack on ALL the professionals who train people to train their own horses.

You know what it explains? It explains why so many people ask me questions and 'how to's in PM. It explains why my Parelli/Pasos Froum has over 60 members. They won't come here, because they are afraid of the confrontation on this forum.

I thought the purpose of these was for discussion.

You know, there are now several threads on here where people have ASKED for advice on PF training of their horses. Where is the "professional" advice for these people?? There seems to be plenty of time to come here and dice other trainers who actually HELP people...

JMHO

Mellifluous

03-04-2007, 02:14 PM

Just a little side note...

The most intuitive horse person I know is a trainer and is male. He is one of those great ones that sandy mentioned.

So much for "women's intuition." ;-)

BTW-I have been trying to learn all that I can about horses, horsemanship, etc. Sure, I love the idea of being a horse trainer but I do have short comings with my personality that probably would not make it doable. I am impatient and have can have high expectations of behavior. If I do not get the behavior I am looking for, I get frustrated and I have to go away for a while before I get angry. I have learned more patience in the past couple of years. Phoebe has taught me a lot about staying calm and not getting wound up. That being said, I will never be the calm, cool and collected type of person that makes a great trainer. I guess you could say that I idle too high.

Kevin would make a great horse trainer. He is wonderful with animals, patient and calm. He jsut does not care to work with horses or be around them if he can help it. He is the one that halter broke Spirit. He is the one that taught him to stand for the farrier. Though he does not like horses, Kevin felt that he had to because he was watching me try to do it and saw how angry and frustrated I was getting. I had been talking his ear off about how I was going to do it so he knew what I was trying. He came in and took over. He had Spirit leading in no time. I was amazed.

I firmly believe that there are certain types of people/personalities that it takes to be a GREAT trainer. All the videos and books in the world can't change who you are inside. That is where the magic is. ;-)

Helene

03-04-2007, 02:46 PM

Interesting thread.... I really think one can't "generalize" things....a couple of years ago, I had a John Lyons newly certified trainer work with my yearling colt. He ran him into the roundpen panels, requiring $500 worth of stitches in his front knee before I was about to stop him (I realized he was putting too much pressure on him)... A year later, this same trainer, same horse....under VERY close supervision...did a wonderful job training the colt to pick up all 4 feet without restraints. I still don't trust him and will watch him closely when working with my horses.
I asked him for help on my 2 year old colt (the one that is being difficult) several weeks ago...he said he would, but so far hasn't come by. Now--- tomorrow a level 2 or 3 Parelli certified (she makes her living training horses) trainer will come to my place to work with the colt. I am very curious ....

SandyMM

03-04-2007, 02:59 PM

Our breed has traditionally always required a "trainer."
Well - that's one statement that just requires a comment.

Not so. There were _very_ few full-time or professional trainers early on in the breed in this country and few owners felt the need for professional help with the type of Paso that was first imported, then bred here - most were far too easy to start and enjoy to pay to have someone else do it.

Not to say that information wasn't shared among friends or gleaned from a more experienced Paso owner, but to hire a full-time trainer - if you had any horse experience at all - just wasn't needed in order to enjoy your Paso Fino on the trail or in the ring.

Cindy

03-04-2007, 09:08 PM

Agree with that, Sandy. Don't know why Carol has the notions that she does about this breed and trainers. Perhaps that is how it is out West, I don't know.

And, Carol, for one, this discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with trainers being somehow threatened by anything. Trust me when I tell you that I do not need any more work than what I have and do not know any other trainers in this breed that need more work. It is just the opposite. I do not want any more work that requires having to retrain a horse that has become totally screwed up by someone who was told that they could train just as well as a professional. It makes me sick to see the results and I do not care to ever receive work from that particular source again in my lifetime. But I will.

BTW - I want to thank you guys. I think this explains something to me. This went from a thread discussing the different natural trainers, the pros and cons of each - a good DISCUSSION - to an all out attack on ALL the professionals who train people to train their own horses.

Now on to this ridiculous statement. Who exactly attacked anyone. And if we were indeed having a discussion about the pros and cons of these trainers, someone must have forgotten to let us know that we were not allowed to discuss the cons, only the pros. Noone attacked any trainer in this entire thread. It was simply a discussion about natural horsemanship trainers. Just because you personally do not share the same thoughts as have been expressed does not mean that anyone has been attacked or that anyone has been out of line in expressing their own opinion. Believe it or not, we are allowed to have opinions just as you are. And we are allowed to share them as well. Even if they differ from yours. And as far as scaring people from posting as they feel threatened and don't want to be attacked, well, I think you hold the record for that one. Why just last week you ran off Britz. And I don't think you even realize that you do it.

Helene, that sounds very similar to a story that I was told recently about a friend's horse. This horse was a very promising 2 year old about ready to go under saddle. The owners took it to one of these clinics put on by one of the top name trainers. Long story short, said top named trainer injured the horse so severely during the clinic that it is now a yard ornament. And did not even offer to pay vet bills. Guess it was the horse's fault that this training did not work on this particular horse.

CarolU

03-04-2007, 09:37 PM

Cindy, it is obviously pointless to continue this discussion. You are taking your experience of taking horses started by people who don't know what they are doing and assuming that it applies to people who have gone through a structured training program where they learn to do everything right and got the youngster going well, and that is the difference we are talking about, giving people the tools and knowledge to do it right. You are talking apples and applying it to oranges.

Why don't you talk to Vickie McQuinn? She started two Parelli ground trained youngsters under saddle this year for Judi. She told Judi she wished every horse she started came to her this well prepared and trained. That they were the easiest horses to train that she ever started. That is quite the complement.

And that is all I have to say about that.

SandyMM

03-04-2007, 10:04 PM

This went from a thread discussing the different natural trainers, the pros and cons of each - a good DISCUSSION - to an all out attack on ALL the professionals who train people to train their own horses.
Just face the facts, Carol. Not everybody agrees with your point of view. What makes you right and all of us wrong? (And could _somebody_ tell me what's 'natural' about dealing with a horse anyway???) The only clinician I will watch any more is Clinton Anderson - he's effective, he doesn't beat around the bush, and he _doesn't_ play games. The best teachers I ever had were all the spoiled-rotten-to-point-of being-dangerous-by-their-over-permissive-friends/buddies/owners horses who taught me to never take _anything_ for granted and that every ride is a 'training' ride.

they were the easiest horses to train that she ever started. That is quite the complement
And the implication is that this can only happen with Parelli or other 'natural' trained horses? I don't buy that for a minute.

Due to time constraints and _really_ awful weather a couple of years ago, I sent a horse we raised from birth - but with no saddle training whatesoever - to a respected trainer in Florida. His comment in the first 15 minutes of handling her.... "This is another (sire's name omitted) offspring that I'll have to pay _you_ to ride. ;-)" The first day she was saddled was Day 2 she was at the farm. On that day, under saddle she moved out in the ring, the 2nd or 3rd day under saddle she was out around the farm being ridden. She just got better with every ride - but her biggest asset - good breeding, not games. We have started 4-5 offspring of a different old bloodline stallion (not who you might think) and every one of them was out on the trails within two weeks...

It's really too bad newcomers to the breed (less than 25 years) never got to experience how incredibly easy it was for anybody to start an old-time Paso - the type that was originally imported and about whom the original model for the breed description was written.

several threads on here where people have ASKED for advice on PF training of their horses. Where is the "professional" advice for these people??
The true professionals are out working for a living. They know that saying something to a person online without being there in person (and seeing the horse and the handler to fully assess the situation) is not only ineffective, but dangerous and irresponsible. I don't know many - if any - true professionals who would risk that kind of liability.

Cindy

03-04-2007, 11:17 PM

Cindy, it is obviously pointless to continue this discussion. You are taking your experience of taking horses started by people who don't know what they are doing and assuming that it applies to people who have gone through a structured training program where they learn to do everything right and got the youngster going well, and that is the difference we are talking about, giving people the tools and knowledge to do it right. You are talking apples and applying it to oranges.

No, Carol, I am talking about oranges. You are just assuming that I am talking about apples because that is what you want to believe. Not everyone is capable of training horses regardless of what program or programs they have studied. Some people are capable of doing all the training a horse requires. Other people are capable of following through on the training of already started but not yet finished horses. There are other people who are only capable of handling finished horses and not screwing them up. And there are still more people who should not have horses at all. This is just a fact of life.

cowboy ed

03-05-2007, 01:00 AM

i just wonder why people say "comparing apples to oranges" when referring to a dissimilar comparison. after all, they are both fruits, somewhat round in shape, and covered with a peel. wouldnt it be more appropriate to say something like, "well, that's like comparing apples to 2 x 4s". or, that's like comparing apples to a rhinoceros".

The Professional

03-05-2007, 06:13 AM

learning and advancing in the program does NOT constitute being a horse trainer.
If only more people realized that while 'learning' and following a packaged program may make you a better horseperson, simply completing the program doesn't automatically make you a bona fide horse trainer. Both the 'Peter Principle' and the 'Dilbert Principle' can be applied to the pursuit of becoming educated as a 'horse trainer... (but ultimately it's the human, not the horse, who gets schooled... ;-)

A 'fair' horse trainer can tackle horses with no real problems and be fairly successful teaching the basics and even some tricks. A 'good' horse trainer can handle the 'usual' problems and looks brilliant to the non-trainers and 'fair' trainers. But it takes a _great_ horse trainer to tackle the horses that no one else can or will fix or bring out the ultimate brilliance in - because s/he has not only knowledge, but also an intuitive sense of what is going on from the ears/to the tail/to the hooves. S/He can look at the big picture while noticing the tiniest details, break it down into its component parts, fix it, and put back together as a usable/brilliant 'package'. No amount of learning/training/book reading/clinic attendance can teach that extra intuitive spark...

On the flip side, _everyone_ 'trains' the horses they come in contact with to some degree or another - whether they mean to or not. Professional, fulltime trainers make a pretty good living off fixing the mistakes of well-intentioned owners. Harsh reality, but oh, so true....

"If it was easy, everybody could do it."

Hello everybody!

I have to say that reading all of your posts fellas, is as educational as hearing Jonn Lions... and I took one of his clinics. Sandy, I read some other of your posts and agree with most of them, but this one deserves to be repeated. Specially the fair, good and great trainer comparations!

I also have to agree with CarolU in some aspect. So, in my opinion... I think it's a good idea to learn as much as you can; and if one wants to become a horse trainer, the first thing that needs to be in mind is that nobody was born knowing it all, so one needs to learn the basics and practice and experience is what makes you a trainer, not a certificate.

It's not as a ferrier, that you learn the theory and then comes the practice and eventually, you gain experience and I'm a certified ferrier, that means that there is no intention on my part to disminish this profession or to get a certificate. From there, your discipline is what makes you a FAIR, GOOD or GREAT ferrier, using Sandy's words. To become a trainer one has to gain experience and learn the theorical at the same time. A professional trainer most continue learning like the doctors and lawyers, etc. having to take new studies and sabaticals etc.

So my point is anybody that wants to become a horse trainer is entirely in he's/her right to intend so. Taking clinics is a good way to learn some more. Reading books, watching videos, etc. But it takes experience, sacrifices, devotion to this line of work, extra amount of patience and love for these wonderful animals to be a professional trainer.

The other face of the coin is that some call themselves "professional trainers" only focusing on how to gain money and never thinking of looking back if they make a "mistake" and "damage" the life of a horse or the owner's pocket $. Bottom line...it's a good deal learning to train but not everyone can become a professional trainer. Some horses are too powerful to handle even for a long- time trainer.

I for example, quit a social worker carreer and dedicated my life to train horses for this is what I love! But that doesen't mean that I don't have to learn from others. I also learn from the horses. So my advice to those who want to train their own horses is to learn as much as you can and if you want to pay for any good clinic...go ahead an do so. But keep in mind that there's a lot of mambo-jambo out there and some "professionals" are always on the look-out for begginers to sell a packet of ideas they read from some old good books, but having no real experience behind their words. Use common sense please!

Cordially,
The Professional

motorgypsy

03-07-2007, 02:22 AM

As some of you know we're professional educators and in the process of our long career we've each had a number of " student teachers" working under us. I suspect there is a great deal of similarity between budding horse trainers and potential human educators.

First the desire has to be there. Whether it be to teach horses or people, if you don't want to do it you surely won't be good at it.

You have to be flexible and very stubborn. If the first technique doesn't work you'd better have a plan b,c,d and so on. This is what I like about Clinton Anderson by the way.

You'd better be a realist about the species and know how it thinks, reacts to stimuli, what it respects and what its currency is - and have no unrealistic ideas about how you're going to save the world or create Albert Einsteins or horses who think like humans. You must respect the species for what it is, not what you want it to be.

You'd better know how to stay safe and how to discipline without causing either psychological or physical injury.

Some are born with natural talent for dealing with humans and/or animals. Others have to learn it and can - but it's not at all easy.

We've had some really bad student teachers who tried so hard but were literally "eaten alive" by the kids. (Yes we could and did intervene but if we had to it destroyed the credibility and respect of the student teacher) We've had some really talented student teachers who were naturals and we've had some who learned how to be great after making many mistakes.

I think the same thing is true of teachers of horses.

There will be some who try so hard but lack some personality trait that is necessary to be the trainer of humans or horses. Many times it is lack of self confidence and the inability to discipline consistently. Other times it's arrogance and inflexibility. These must change or will never succeed.

Some are born with an ability to interact with animals and in particular horses but they cannot teach others to do so because they don't understand it themselves. Rarely but on occasion this type will make the attempt to determine why they are so successful and if they do learn to understand their talent they will become outstanding teachers of humans who wish to learn to train.

And then there are those who have gifted teachers, who struggle, get things wrong and finally figure it out. These usually become the best teachers because they know not only what to do but also why it works and why other things don't.

So we agree with some of what all of you say regarding trainers, but not all.

One more think no one mentioned that I can recall. It is really two different talents to train a horse to do what is asked of it and to train a different human to get this horse to do the same for the new human as it did for the original trainer.

And this is a serious failing I see in a number of trainers - even those who are very talented. Yes you may be able to go out and get your horse to count to ten, jump through fire and scratch your back on command - but can you teach another person to get this horse to do the same thing? If you can then you are not only a horse trainer, but a "people trainer".

And unfortunately many excellent horse trainers are not good people trainers at all. And if you aren't a good people trainer but are an excellent horse trainer then it's time to join forces with a good people trainer who CAN teach the new person how to get this horse to do as well for them as it will for you.

It seems to be asking an awful lot of one person to both train the horse AND the new person anyway. I've heard so many blame the new owner for the horse misbehavior or the original trainer or the ancestry or whatever. It really is two totally different processes and unless both the trainer and the owner understand that as much time has to be taken with teaching the new owner as in teaching the horse there will always be problems.

Jasfino

03-07-2007, 06:14 AM

I am with you on this Carol. I think anyone that takes their time ...with the right knowledge.. can "start" a horse...teaching it the basics.

Finishing one is another thing altogether.. and that is where having the experience and knowledge seperates the wannabe's from the real trainers.

Just for the record.. I am a wannabe... :D

Pam M

03-07-2007, 10:07 AM

Saying that anyone can be a horse trainer is like saying that anyone can be a chef - we can all read a recipe, right?

Or like saying anyone can be a writer since we all know how to use a pen and paper.

Or that anyone can be a public speaker since we all know how to talk.

Some things require talent as well as skills.

CarolU

03-07-2007, 12:33 PM

All I can say is that IF you go, and you LOOK with an OPEN MIND, you will see that ANYONE who REALLY WANTS TO, put in the time and learn and work with their horse WILL train it. If they then go on to train many more horses, they indeed become a "horse trainer."

And yes, there are people with certain personality traits such as a short tempers, impatience, inflexibility, rigidity, etc., that will have some personal hurdles to overcome to get there, but they too, CAN learn to be better horsemen.

What is everyone's problem with EVERY rider learning to become a "Horseman" instead of just a "passenger?" Every single person that is around a horse should learn basic horsemanship.

Mellifluous

03-07-2007, 12:54 PM

I don't think anyone is saying that folks should not learn basic horsemanship. All that is being said is that some people are going to be better at working with horses than other people.

I love Pam's post. That says it!

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-07-2007, 12:58 PM

c watson

03-07-2007, 01:24 PM

I have not read the entire 5 pages of this thread, so maybe this has been mentioned. I purchased the DVD Clinton Anderson produced on Gaited horses. I think it is very good so far. His two subjects are TWH but the premise is that we "gaited people", in our quest for consistent gait forget the basics of getting the horse

1. soft
2. supple
3. relaxed
4 responsive (light)

not working on the basics first (yes,starting on the ground!), get us in all kinds of trouble as we only focus on "why wont my horse gait consistently" I know I have several that get pacey when I let them rush around without thinking about balance, bending, and lightness. Then some people will slap a big bit on a horse hoping to collect them up when the horse doesnt have the basics of self carriage and self control, and the rider is not a rider's rider. Someone I really admire told me "you have to give up control before you can get control" and I dont believe you can do this until you have the Big 4 (above)

I am not an expert, but I have found this very helpful because it is very basic.

Clinton Anderson says that your horse will gait with a string for a bit if you have a soft supple relaxed horse that is balanced and working off the hind end. Duh-Sounds simple but often we take shortcuts then scratch our heads as to what "device" we can use to fix things

I have had miraculous rides on my sometimes pacey pasos by focusing on basics especially the flexing of head and neck exersises and by getting them to be more aware of where their feet are going.

I have not watched the entire set yet. I am only just at the beginning.
he jokes at the beginning saying that he thought that "gaited" horses where ones trained in USA to be able to close and open gates

Disclaimer: these are my opinions and this return to basics has worked well for me. I am merely sharing my experiences, not trying to preach.

CarolU

03-07-2007, 01:26 PM

c.watson - very well said.

:not worthy :not worthy :not worthy :not worthy

SandyMM

03-07-2007, 01:37 PM

I find Clinton Anderson's approach and attitutude very refreshing and realistic. Whether on the ground or in the saddle, he treats the horse like a horse. Just saw an RFD-TV show interview on his ranch in Ohio - _really_ nice layout which is usable year-round. His apprentice training program is a 4-year residential program required before they go out on their own as 'certified'... I like that approach as they are under his personal mentorship on a daily basis for an extended period of time.

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-07-2007, 01:58 PM

C Watson, that was refreshing, thank you for sharing.

Saludos

Fuego

03-07-2007, 07:36 PM

Boarding at a hunter/jumper/dressage training barn has been a real eye opener for me. The lack of basic horsemanship is astounding. Especially since most of these riders pay $40-$60. per lesson year after year after year and are still incable of riding without an instructor. Yet they are NEVER taught/learn anything new. From observing lessons from several different instructors with riders from beginners to advanced riders, it's always the same ( sorta like a PFHA show). How many years does ir take to learn how to post a trot in a circle and go over a jump ( usually under 3'). Ground work doesn't even exisit for these folks, unless you count longing your horse in a bit. And half of them look panic stricken at the mere suggestion of riding outside of an arena.
Horses that come in and don't readily accept hauling on the bit to control and manipulate them without even a thought to any ground/prep work are simply sold off as unsuitable horses. And nearly every 'English' horse on the property will have it's mouth 'tightly' strapped shut when ridden ( gee, I wonder why).
Even the majority of talented riders simply don't have the first inkling about basic horsemanship.
Monkey see monkey do is the rule of the barn. Meaning, when asked, most of them can't explain to you WHY they are using the tack they are using (other then that's what they were told to use). The thought of changing their tack/bit to resolve a problem with their horse just doesn't occur to them.
I've never seen such a large group of dedicated riders so totally ignorant about basic horsemanship in my life.
Personally, I've often wondered if all this ignorance isn't intentional to keep these folks paying for over priced lessons for as long as they ride.

I'm not a disciple of any of the current popular gurus,and don't believe any of them have all the answers, but do learn from all of them.
As already stated, none of these methods are new. However, having educational methods of simple and basic communication between horse and human being taught en masse to the general public is new. And I think it is the best thing to happen in the horse world in a long time, for both the horses and the owners.(Especially for the non professionals).

TrueStepPaso

03-07-2007, 07:59 PM

I wanted to share one thing about Clinton Anderson that really stood out in my mind....and has since kept me on the fence about him.

About two years ago, I was asking a mentor of mine (for trimming & horsemanship) about the "Road to the Horse" show he saw in Murpheesboro (sp?),TN (I believe) a week ago....now this man is in his late sixties, and has been around horses all his life - he was a master farrier, and knows his schit when it comes to training.....and his first comment was that he was disappointed with that Clinton Anderson fella.

He showed me the tape....

I'm pretty sure it was John Lyon's son, Craig Cameron, and then Clinton Anderson.....they were in their seperate round pens with their "untouched" horses, and Craig Cameron was CLEARLY AHEAD by a long shot. Mr. Cameron eventually had that horse so calm, he was picking up all four feet by the time the others had even joined up with their respective horses! Clinton Anderson looked like a kangaroo on crack....he was jumping all over his horse, talking a mile a minute, cracking some ridiculous whip OVER AND OVER AGAIN :roll: ....and that is when I noticed it. Every time he cracked that whip, it would be when Craig Cameron would approach his horse. Well, Mr. Cameron's horse would spook, and seemed to associate Craig's actions with that startling sound....
I must say, the whip cracking was over the top, and went on for FAR too long...it did set Craig Cameron back some, but I STILL think he should have been the winner that day. Even after all that, he was saddled and calmly riding before the other two.... :-?

I think Clinton Anderson's "sexy accent" & good looks were his edge that day....Cherri Hill was one of the judges you know, and she was apparently known to have a "crush" on him..... :roll:

Anyway, I thought it seemed like he used his exceptional knowledge of horse behavior that day to his advantage...in an underhanded and sneaky way....I dunno, maybe it was just a coincidence....

TrueStepPaso

03-07-2007, 08:05 PM

Personally, I've often wondered if all this ignorance isn't intentional to keep these folks paying for over priced lessons for as long as they ride.

I just had to comment on this! I TOTALLY BELIEVE THIS TO BE TRUE.

Great teachers turn out excellent students.....their students EXCEED them. So, yes, I think most barns want to keep their students ignorant and dependant on them...but also, I believe that the teachers themselves are incompetent morons....

Fuego

03-07-2007, 09:52 PM

You made me laugh, Abby.

I haven't missed the irony at this barn that many of the 'instructors' still take lessons theirselves on a regular basis.

Also it is quite common for several of the teenage girls to get paid for teaching beginner riders. And sad to say, they actually are 'qualified' to be instructors in this enviroment. because all they do is repeat everything verbatim of what they have heard since they first started lessons 8 years ago and still hear during their present day lessons.

There are a few teenage girls waiting for an instructor to tell them they are ready to advance from competing at beginners level to intermediate level. When in fact, they are quite talented riders and have the ability to have advanced years ago.

I keep quite, but I have done quite a bit of observation at this facility, and it has been an eye opening education.

CarolU

03-07-2007, 10:07 PM

LOL Mitch. I worked at an H/J barn years ago and observed much the same thing. And NO, they never went for a trail ride, unless you consider a gallop through the front pasture over the jumps there a trail ride. Kids and horses were there for years and years. Some actually proud of how many years they had been taking lessons there.

I have a good friend doing Classical Dressage with her Pasos...and I have to say that she gets to advance along quite nicely. It has a made a lot of difference in her horses carriage and attitude about working. A lot less worry/stress then horses she bought.

DebbieS

03-07-2007, 10:47 PM

Clinton will be here (well, about 1/2 hr away) in July. I can't wait! Ken McNabb (one of the 1st John Lyons Certified Trainers) will be at our local horse expo Mar 24-25. It's a pretty small expo, so hopefully, I'll have a chance to chat with him.

Clinton is the easiest to watch, by far. I think he really teaches the person to teach the horse. I like Pat and Linda Parelli, but they are more entertainment.

motorgypsy

03-07-2007, 11:17 PM

Fuego you have really touched a nerve with your post. HOW can ANYONE expect to be able to ride a horse when they know NOTHING about horses. I listen to the instructors at our boarding barns telling students how to sit and where to put their feet and what cues to give and things like that and I think - WOW - they aren't driving a car. They need to know about the horse, not how to sit or hold their feet.

I showed some photos to a friend who is a riding instructor of a galloping routine I did on one of my mares and the first thing she talked about was how my heels weren't below my toes and my butt wasn't against the cantle of the saddle. Of course I just smiled and said this horse was running at a full gallop and doing high speed turns when and where I asked her to and at the speed I asked for. I could not care less how low my heels are or where my butt was because I was balanced and stayed in the saddle because my horse was doing exactly what I asked. This is what I find important.

I spent several years taking "riding lessons" and learned nothing about horses. Thank goodness for people like John Lyons, Clinton Anderson, Pat Paretlli, Dennis Riess sp?, Willis Lamm (KBR ranch on the internet), our own Cindy G, LynnG, Barb P, CarolU and many many others who are willing to share their expertise to better help us learn to communicate with our horses. They may not agree on methods or even basic concepts but one thing I can always be sure of. They have the best interests of the horse in their hearts. That makes them all winners.

LONG LIVE THE GREAT HORSE AND PEOPLE TRAINERS!!!

CarolU

03-08-2007, 01:24 AM

Why thank you Nancy :oops: That is a very nice thing to say.

I wanted to let everyone know that our Expo ride will be following Craig Cameron this weekend and we'll be stabled next to him. Soooooo, I expect to meet him this weekend.
:D

SandyMM

03-08-2007, 01:36 AM

I like Pat and Linda Parelli, but they are more entertainment.

Definitely more focus on entertainment... We watch an occasional show on RFD-TV and 90% - if not more - is just watching somebody at some level performing some kind of 'task' in tandem, triplets.....whatever... We have yet to last through an entire show. It's the entertainment/game/toy factors that keep me from taking this method seriously.

CarolU

03-08-2007, 04:06 PM

Yeah, I can see where the average horse person doesn't get much out of their RFDTV shows these days. I believe their idea is to show what average people have done with their horses to show that anybody can do it. But, I also have to admit that unless you are IN the program you won't get much out of the 4-minute challenges if you don't know what they're doing. I get a lot out of them, but I admit, for someone who doesn't know what they're talking about, understanding different horse personalities and how to apply the training techniques, I can see where you'd get bored.

All the Natural trainers teach pretty much the same things, just different ways and programs and they will call the same thing something else. I learn from all of them and I think everyone can and SHOULD if they plan to have horses.

Isn't it wonderful, the world that RFDTV has opened up for so many people? So much to learn.