Groundtraining same price as saddletraining?

[Helene]

I was wondering: is ground training a young horse = saddle training and thus cost the same?
I am considering sending my almost two year old colt off for ground training. I've worked with several youngsters, but this one is beyond my know-how.
Trainers around here charge $500 to $600 for saddle training. My neighbor is willing to "take him on". He went through a "John Lyons Certification's course", but has no experience with young horses. He has saddle trained his own two horses and spends an immense amount of time with them. The colt would stay at my place and he would come over, lead the colt to his roundpen and then work with him there. I wonder what would be fair to pay him. I asked for his charge, but he hasn't come up with a number, yet.
Last year, I let him work with another one of my young colts. My colt got hurt (jumped into the panels of the roundpen and cut his knee...required stitches). I wouldn't consider this guy at all, but I think he learned from that incidence....and he IS a real nice, gentle guy who takes wonderful care of his own animals (dogs and horses)....

[appyday]

You know what...might not be the mans fault the horse got hurt on the panels...horses are idiots...

Give him a try..watch him and see what you think

If he is walking over...no milage I would say $20-25 per visit...unless he wants to cut you some slack...

[Abejita]

training is training..and the 500-600 usually covers board too (around here) so if he is coming over ..well here it would be about 40 bucks an hour,what the local guy charges for a one hour lesson..whether the lesson be for you riding..or for him working the horse.I think they do it this way because most people wont have the trainer working the horse on a daily basis when done this way..

[Helene]

Hmm, this fellow can come over every day. At five times a week, that would come to, at $20/25 per hour to $100/125 per week or $400/500 per month. According to $40 per hour, that would be $800 per month. I think, since he is very inexperienced, I'd be better off sending the colt off and have him fed and taken care of.
We have some real good quarterhorse trainers in the area and maybe I should just send him to an experienced trainer for the ground training?

[CarolU]

Helene...how much ground training or you wanting? I can't see him needing more then one or two weeks of an hour each day, then cut back to one hour per week until just before he's saddle broke, and then another week or two, depending on where he is at. I usually work my youngster for 20-30 minutes 1-2 times a week when the weather is nice. Before saddle training, I usually get through all the pre-ground work in two weeks. That is with pretty wild colts too.

[Helene]

Carol, I have raised several foals and I have never had the problems I am having with this one. This colt is difficult, very stubborn, willful, and very, very strong, and fast. I have worked and worked with this colt, but we are having a "personality conflict". This is the pinto you saw at Mile High. Doug F. had him "eating out of his hand" within an hour. I think he has me "figured out" and I feel I need help. He is getting too big and too strong.

[SandyMM]

If other trainers can get him going quickly, maybe the personality conflict is more a case of the horse needing a more assertive personality. Sometimes these conflicts can't be resolved without the owner making major changes themselves. Once a horse thinks they have your number, you need not only training for him, but also for yourself in order to see where he is pushing the buttons and how to manage that.

I would also say that just because a previous colt got hurt on a round pen doesn't necessarily mean that it was the trainer's fault unless he was negligent. Horses can and do get injured on their own - at home and at trainers' farms. If the neighbor does right by his horses, he'll most likely do right by yours.

If a horse is difficult, your money is well-spent to get him a good, firm start.

[Linda Y]

That is what I was going to say too. You may be wasting your money unless you can figure out first WHY this colt has you so buffaloed. He will work fine for whoever does the groundwork but still know he can out muscle or intimidate you.
Good luck...give the guy a chance, and maybe you can stay out and watch him and get involved with the training.

[Helene]

Yes, Sandy. I feel the choices I have are....finding him a new owner (kind of hard right now, since he is being so difficult),....spend hours with him and force myself to train him (I don't like him much right now), change my attitude towards him and work through our issues,....get help.
I also feel it might be good for both of us. I have been pretty much the only person handling him since birth. It might be good to get to know other people. And I could need encouragement to see that there can be progress in this horse, that he can learn.

[Hacienda Del Sol]

I suppose the thing to know first off is that you normally get what you pay for. With a horse like yours I'm not going to rush through anything, I'd rather work out those problems on the ground than in the saddle. Consider that the ground training will probably be the most important training in your horse's life, you should pay someone accordingly.

[Helene]

Jamie, I don't mind to pay well, if I get good training for my horse. But expensive does not guarantee good training. I've had several trainers and the best trainer was a teenager who would come to my place every day and work with my horses. She started three horses for me and all turned out very nice trail horses. Too bad she found other interests than horses.
I could tell you some horror stories about when I sent my horses out for training ...and NO trainer was less than $500 per month. I got a horse back that had perfect ground manners...couldn't pick up his hind feet anymore. He had "rope burns" on them up to his hocks. Another time I visited unexpectedly...after two weeks....the horse wore a war bridle while the trainer was riding her. I picked her up that day.... Or how about finding out that one of my horses sent out for a month was only ridden for two weeks (and not by the trainer but by a helper)---was a very "recommended, reputable" trainer....
My neighbor.....is a nice man. He charges $575 per month for saddle training. He took a six week John Lyons certification course and has only trained his two horses...no youngsters. When he worked with my other colt, he pushed too hard, I could see that and was about to interfere, when the colt didn't see a way out and crashed into the roundpen panels. Now...this colt was nothing like the one I am having trouble with...He was laid back, well mannered, kind of lazy, obedient...I wanted to test the guy's skills... Well, it was a great lesson that cost me $500 in vet bills for a less than 30 minute lesson.
I guess I am "gun shy" now and need to see competancy first.

[Hacienda Del Sol]

That's true, how much you pay is no guarantee on how good a trainer someone is. The things you mention are unforgivable, they just shouldn't happen. I think you have to "audition" a trainer. The problem is, when you send a horse to trainer, you don't know really how good they are until they are already paid, and by then it's too late. I'd suggest looking around their barn. Take a look at the horses they have, how do they respond? Do they come up to the front of the stall when you approach or do they move to the rear and pin their ears. Horses may vary with this type of behavior, but when that behavior is seen in a vast majority of the horses at the trainer's facility, you can draw some conclusion on how they deal with their animals. I think it's fair to ask for a video during the training process, most trainers would not be afraid to do that for you. I've done that for mine, and I think it's important for the clients to see, so they are happy. It also lets the client know where there horse is in the process, it's not an each month kind of thing, but every once in a while. It's also a protection for me as a trainer. When I tell a client their horse is a bit difficult, I can document exactly in what ways the horse is difficult, and they can see it. I figure the owner is paying me for a service, and that's the least I can do. The fact that when you sent your other horse for training he was injured might be an indicator of his skills.

[CarolU]

Helene, to answer your quesiton, I do charge the same for both. They're both the same hour, weather you are on the ground or in the saddle. The foundation of all trianing is laid on the ground. You're better to pay someone to do this part right, because the rest is easy IF the groundwork was done right in the first place. If it wasn't, all the saddle work in the world may not fix the holes.

Let me add one other thing. Since you feel that you are really the one with the problem...the colt sees you as a pushover...what you probably should do is have him work with the colt for a while, and then work with you two together. You need to learn how to manage this colt or sell him. The colt will revert right back to being beligerent if he knows you won't do anything about it. This way you can see where you both are in training and know how much time you both need.

[Helene]

Jamie, good points and tips. I never thought of asking for a video.
Carol, thanks for getting back to my question.
This colt is not an unhandled mustang. He does load, lead, tie,....I only want to make it easier to be handled when he is being saddle trained. I could continue like right now for another year...minimum handling and then send him off for three or so months. Let the trainer work through his difficulties when he saddletrains him! Saddletraining involves ground training, anyway. Many trainers tell me that's what they do for a month anyway before they even get on him. If I had the horse ground trained...would that cut down on his saddle training time? What if I used different trainers for both?
I think it would be of advantage for the trainer to send him in for some preparatory work and to get to know him plus it would be a good opportunity for the colt to meet someone else than me.
On the work, itself....do you work a youngster for the same amount of time as one that you saddle train? I would think a youngster doesn't have the strength, endurance, attention span as an older horse. And also, isn't it less dangerous to work on the ground versus getting on an unridden horse?
As for me handling this horse....maybe I exaggerated some....I am not scared, just frustrated. It takes so much time....he is attentive and respectful after we work through the initial 20 minutes of him challenging me. I know he just needs more time than any other horse that I've had. I guess I need to be more patient, take more time with him.

[CarolU]

Helene, I can't vouch for other trainers. I do know I see a lot of horses that have very little ground training beyond being lunged, tied and saddled. These are the holes I was refering to.

You have seen me in the Trail class...there is not a thing I do ON a horse, I haven't first done on the ground. You don't have to 'work' a young horse hard to spend time with them and accomplish a lot. But, there are horses like your colt, high energy horses that take initial de-energizing to get where they are working. You might turn him loose in the round coral and let him run himself for a bit first.

But, with very dominant personalities, the best thing you can do is teach them to back away from you and to drive their front shoulders away. This is what horses do to each other to establish the big kahuna. Any horse figures out that if you can make him back, and drive his front end 365 degrees, then you are indeed someone to be respected. I have a gelding here, and these are the first things I do with him after I catch him. Then he is a docile baby with me. BUT, he has no respect for anyone who can't work him.

I spend 20-30 minutes per session with youngsters. And then add saddle time on the other end of that. I always do ground work with every horse, unless I am just heading out for a trail ride or something. When they are more advanced in their ground lessons, I may spend an hour or more working at liberty. Some days I don't ride at all.

[CarolU]

I should add, there is a difference between lunging and working. You train a horse on line to change gaits, stop, back, etc. It's not repeated circles ad nauseum. That would indeed be hard on a youngster.

[Hacienda Del Sol]

I suppose I didn't answer your question, lol. I would expect to pay just as much for groundwork as I would saddle work. It's all still work, and in many ways the groundwork is more demanding than the saddle work.

[Helene]

Carol, this colt is the "BACK UP KING". He can back up very fast and for a LONG time around the barn. He backs up when I hold up one finger (usually the pointer). When he starts backing, he initially shakes his head at me, I keep going aggressively forward, then his head goes down towards his chest and he backs obediently....
I have tried to send him out to pasture, make him run before working with him. My problem is I have to halter him and lead him out to the pasture on a leadrope....It's always a fight. Putting the halter on (I use a rope halter)...he likes to bite at it and the leadrope snap. I have tried ignoring it for a while, which worked for other horses, not him....I've yanked it out of his mouth, he pulls back and runs off and won't let me get close to put it on again, I have smacked him on the chest (don't want to smack his head or muzzle-tried that once and couldn't get near him for hours)....same reaction. I have rewarded him with treats once on, petting him, etc. I have sent him off and chased him around the corral he is in....He really gets worked up over that and it takes a long time for him to finally stop....
Once the fight is over and I let him go out on pasture....the training session is pretty much over and he is attentive and respectful and am totally frustrated.

[CarolU]

Helene...when he runs off, is he playing or is he reacting to you pulling the rope. He sounds like he has a big play drive and wants to play, play, play.

Is this the same colt that was in the video with Shadowfax?

[Cindy]

Helene, I do charge less for ground training horses only such as the yearlings that I am showing. But I do not charge less for the ground training that I do prior to saddle training when the horse is sent here to break.

Having another trainer ground train the horse for only a month or two would not make my saddle training ground training much quicker unless they do the exact same things that I do in the exact same way. However, if the horse was well ground trained when I got it the training would go quicker. But a month or two with another trainer a year prior to me getting the horse would not do much. Doing the ground training myself for a month or two a year prior to saddle training would make the saddle training go more quickly in most cases.

Yes, time spent with a younger horse ground traianing only is less time than saddle training as the attention span of a young horse is not that great and I do not want them to become bored with their work before they even get under saddle.

Ground training is not necessarily less dangerous than saddle training.

Is this horse still a colt? Why do you not geld him? The things that he is doing will always be a problem if he is left a colt as they are coltish things. Of course they can be handled and diminished, but they will never go completely away and you will always have to stay on top of him to not let him do them. If you have already gelded him, I guess you would have to find something else to cut off.

[Helene]

My internet provider has been giving SLOW service and I couldn't post anything, could barely read anything, either. I hope to have satellite service by next week.
Yes, Carol, that is the colt in the video with Shadowfax.
Cindy, I like all of your answers. It was my feeling (and that's why I asked) that I might waste my money sending this colt off for a month. I will probably wait and have his ground training done prior/along with the saddletraining. He is still a colt, but probably not for much longer if his attitude doesn't improve. I have had several colts gelded, have no problems having it done, but there is something about this one. Also, it seems like I don't get along well with geldings, either--so whether colt or gelding doesn't make much of a difference to me. I so much more prefer fillies. They just don't seem pose huge problems. And I have had a couple of difficult ones. That little filly I recently got--never been haltered, it only took two days and I can slip a halter on her and take her for short walks.
Up till now, I have hesitated to have this colt gelded. I would like to get him evaluated by a couple of people to see if he is stud quality. Not for me, but I would try to sell him if he IS "what it takes". He is a pinto of good size, massive built, gorgeous head, and VERY, very well gaited. His attitude might be because he may "need a job" (boredom) or just plain playfulness. I give him the benefit of doubt (and that's why I would like someone else to work with him ...to see if someone else can handle him better).
By the way, I worked with him today for quite a while and wouldn't you know it??? He was pretty good. Gave me little problem putting a halter on him. I took him to the roundpen where I worked with him on respecting my space...At the end of our lesson I was working on taking his halter on and off...he did well. Some days he can be so good.....And other days...I could shoot him. It seems like if I work with him every day, he is good, but I can't miss a whole week of working with him.

[CarolU]

OK. It is definately play drive you are seeing. It sounds like you hit the nail on the head. He needs a job to do. When he's taking the lead in his mouth and being a pill, he's playing. He's being like Bruiser! LOL If you give him work to do, he'll look at THAT as play and enjoy it. These kinds of horses really have nice work ethics once you chanel all that into learning and they learn fast and beg for more challenges. BUT, they get bored easily and this play side comes out.

He is getting old enough to decide NOW. I would get the evaluation done and him gelded early this spring if you are not going to sell him right away as a stud. There is a much larger market for geldings then there is for stallions.

BTW - the play drive won't go away with gelding. You need to find someone who wants to trick train him or somethings. He'd do very well at it.

[motorgypsy]

Is this colt alone or in with other colts and geldings? We have found that our youngsters are much better behaved when they have older, more dominant horses to teach them. And we had a gelding who behaved like this when we got him and he was 4. Anytime he grabs anything we grab the end of his nose and hang on and and play with his mouth, tongue, etc. He learned very quickly to avoid being mouthy. We've found that hitting is not usually effective although a good thump with the first finger on the end of the nose works well for nipping if you can be quick enough. It works great with a mini but hasn't been as effective with our pasos as the nose grab. Since the behavior is "hardwired" you just have to get the message across that they don't do it with you, not that they don't do it at all.

Our worst youngsters have been fillies. Our boss mare is really tough and her youngsters are very big and confident and boss older horses when they are babies and try to boss people. But they do grow up into very nice horses. We surely empathize with you but he'll come around. A nice big well behaved and confident gelding or stallion would do wonders for him if he's not already out with one. If he is you just keep insisting on respect and he will grow up!

As far as fee for ground work vs saddle work, I'd charge the same amount myself because ground work can be even more dangerous and tiring and is essential for good saddle training.

[Helene]

I don't have an older gelding. A few months ago, I kept this colt with my boss mare sometimes during the day, till I thought he was getting old enough to breed. He never seemed interested in breeding her, but was very respectful towards her and she kept him in line.
I have been thinking whether I should borrow my friend's 16 h paint laid back gelding. I've done that once with another colt I had and had wonderful results. This colt here, does not seem interested in "studly" stuff, yet, like the first one was. He just has an immense amount of energy.
I would keep him and my other colt (same age) together, but they run and play till both are drenched (not too good in this weather right now, too cold to be wet) and also, they are eating each other's tails-- not too good since I plan to show one and sell the other.....
In a couple of months I will be getting my 3 year old colt back from training and he'll be put in with both of those colts. Two of those threee will be gelded this spring....one for sure, the other two don't know which one of them, yet, depends on evaluations....and then, maybe all three...
I still think it takes less time to ground train a youngster and still think riding an untrained horse is way more dangerous than handling a young horse that has had some handling (if he was totally unhandled I would agree to a higher fee)....And if I was in Cindy's area I would ask her to take my colt on for sure. And because of her fair pricing, I would ask her in a year to start him under saddle (if she liked him)....But ---I must say that all trainers that I have talked to ask the same fee whether in the saddle or on the ground....
I don't think I will pay my neighbor full price to get the experience he really needs to be a trainer, to experiment with my colt and possibly ruin him. I think I will keep working with the horse (with all my mistakes) and then let an experienced trainer do ALL training at once, when he is old enough.

[Helene]

I don't have an older gelding. A few months ago, I kept this colt with my boss mare sometimes during the day, till I thought he was getting old enough to breed. He never seemed interested in breeding her, but was very respectful towards her and she kept him in line.
I have been thinking whether I should borrow my friend's 16 h paint laid back gelding. I've done that once with another colt I had and had wonderful results. This colt here, does not seem interested in "studly" stuff, yet, like the first one was. He just has an immense amount of energy.
I would keep him and my other colt (same age) together, but they run and play till both are drenched (not too good in this weather right now, too cold to be wet) and also, they are eating each other's tails-- not too good since I plan to show one and sell the other.....
In a couple of months I will be getting my 3 year old colt back from training and he'll be put in with both of those colts. Two of those threee will be gelded this spring....one for sure, the other two don't know which one of them, yet, depends on evaluations....and then, maybe all three...
I still think it takes less time to ground train a youngster and still think riding an untrained horse is way more dangerous than handling a young horse that has had some handling (if he was totally unhandled I would agree to a higher fee)....And if I was in Cindy's area I would ask her to take my colt on for sure. And because of her fair pricing, I would ask her in a year to start him under saddle (if she liked him)....But ---I must say that all trainers that I have talked to ask the same fee whether in the saddle or on the ground....
I don't think I will pay my neighbor full price to get the experience he really needs to be a trainer, to experiment with my colt and possibly ruin him. I think I will keep working with the horse (with all my mistakes) and then let an experienced trainer do ALL training at once, when he is old enough.

[Terry Wallace]

For me...its the same pricing for ground or saddle training. Both are equally risky jobs.

As Cindy pointed out.... your doing the ground work won't necessarily make the saddle training shorter or cheaper. For me, I prefer to take the horse wothout the owner trying to do the ground training...the reason is....too many times I get the horse here and find out it knows nothing, and have to restart the ground training anyway.

I find out they will run willy-nilly around a round pen...but have not been taught any REAL work, and have no real skills.... won't cross-over on the longe line...cannot stand tied without having a fit half way through the tie period, cannot be ground driven...etc....