Rule Changes II

[CarolU]

Gosh...now that we've chewed tails to death, there are some other rule change proposals that might be interesting to discuss (go ahead...shoot me Lori! LOL)

1) One would allow the use of metal over the nose of schooling Pleasure horses BECAUSE it is allowed in schooling Fino and Performance. The reason is that apparently metal is needed for (these baby schooling) horses to perform their best.

2) Another is to remove " ...and gaits are especially suitable to trail and pleasure riding." from the Pleasure Division rules. The reason stated is pretty wild :shock: " As the quality of our show horse improves :?: , our trail/pleasure horses are no longer competitive in the show pleasure classes. It is misleading to the new Paso Fino owner and should help clarify to the existing membership that the show pleasure horses and the recreation trail/pleasure horses are not the same." (can you say DUH?)

Now mind you, I think it would be far easier just to change the name of the Pleasure Division to the Fino B Divison and that would end the 'farce' that is "Pleasure" in our shows. Then develop Country Pleasure into a REAL pleasure division for REAL pleasure horses. But, that's just me.

[Suezette Rodriguez]

Thats true CArolU they should let schooling pleasure use the metal over the nose ! like you say they do in Performance and fino !


lol thats one thing i agree with you !! lol

[Serendipity]

Metal on young horses noses????!!!!!.Crazy .I'm certainly gait my trainer does not go to theses feats.And she wins a Lot at Nat'l no metal on any horse pleasure ,preformace,or fino.

And there is a differance between a show pleasure horse and a trail horse but a person show wants to show and has a true pleasure horse should beable to show. now at nat'l level a back yard horse might not do as well but if its owner wants to take it and spend the money to show their horse I say let them.Pleasure really isn't pleasure anyway it should be called something elses or just make a country pleasure divistion for the rest of us that show and trail ride

[Kerry W]

Number two...we need to make the Pleasure classes SHOW PLEASURE classes. The new rule change seeks to redefine the word pleasure...someone will HAVE to call Merriam-Webster! If you are going to get rid of the pleasure "ideal"...change the name of the class, so that newcomers won't be confused, confusing our "improved quality" pleasure horses, with our REAL pleasure horses. :lol:

[SandyMM]

I am so glad I don't show anymore..... many more 'improvements' to the breed and nobody will be able to recognize them... Of course, several breeds have finally seen the error of their rush to 'improvement' and have started special 'foundation' designations to get back to the basic breed characteristics that made the breeds so incredibly popular before fads nearly destroyed them....

[El Indio Elegante]

I agree with the metal on the nose band. my new horse napoleon is not the easiest horse to ride. no he doesn't have the bit in his mouth but all that Shaw uses on him is something with metal. There is no way i would be able to handle him without it.

With the pleasure thing. I have a question where do the horses go that aren't good enough for country pleasure but are to spirited to be a backyard horse? Indio is not that well gaited. He is too spirited to go into Country Pleasure now but his gait is horrible. The only class i could put him is the versatility class. Another thing i have been noticing that alot of the performance horses are finally being excused in the pleasure division. has anyone else noticed this?

[Terry Wallace]

Carol..clarification please..I have not read over the metal nose band info... are you saying BARE metal noseband...or leather-covered noseband?

[Pasogirlz]

Terry, not sure, but the flat link nose bands are the ones that came to my mind when I read it, b/c that is what I have seen in the schooling classes mainly. But I'm trying to pull it up now.

[Pasogirlz]

One other thing I wanted to bring up...the rule change about ownership.

It basically says that you can't do an quick fix affidavit of ownership to ride A/O on someone elses horse.

I DO understand why they want to do it, but I hate it personally b/c I have been invited to ride other ppls horses in the shows...but I don't want to ride in the proffessionals class..b/c I'm NOT a professional. I see it from a person like PaintedHorizon's view who doesn't own a paso yet, but Stella might offer to let her show a horse and get involved in the breed, however PH would not want to ride in a proffessionals class.

Why can't you ride others horses if you have an Amateurs card and not proffessionals? To me, A/O means EITHER Amatuer OR Owner...if they change the rule they should just call it the Owners classes :roll: JMHO

[motorgypsy]

Ah Lori - very good point. I didn't realize that an amatuer couldn't ride in an amiowner class on someone else's horse. I wonder why not? If for example Bailey wanted to ride in a paso fino show and it was fine with us to lend her a horse, she'd have to ride against professionals? Seems wrong. Anyone know why this is the case???

[stella]

Well, that DOES need to change, to allow amateurs, not just amateur owners......but I think it was done to encourage people to BUY a horse! But, while we've grown alot since, and the competition IS tough in the a/o classes, Idont see why they dont offer strictly amateur.....even though sometimes the open class is only half the size of the A/O class!

I agree that they need to RENAME the division SHOW PLEASURE, if they are going to take out references to trailriding, NOT to CONFUSE the audience.
REMEMBER, they dont have a copy of the rulebook to read, that it doesnt mean trailhorse anymore!
But, they need to expand the Country Pleasure division, so that there's an open, and so that As, A/Os can at least get some lessons and coaching from a professional to do their best, doesnt have to be training, but it would encourage more newbies to go in, if they had the support behind them......so I think, anyway! Any other perspectives on that?

[Pasogirlz]

Stella- Maybe it IS done to promote a person to buy a horse, but that person would still have to pay Assoc fees, Show Fees, etc which support the Assoc. even if they didn't own one yet. And we all know what happens after you get sucked into the breed. ;-) My problem was not that I didn't OWN a Paso, but they were never ready to enter the ring (either in foal, too young, or not trained enough)...but I still wanted to participate. ;-) Just food for thought.

[Serendipity]

Ive wondered the same thing about a/o.Its a bit scary but I ride in County Pleasure and if even by accident I let a trainer on my mare that DQ's from country pleasure for 6 months??? :-? ,
But I also dislike seeing an a/o standing around and the trainer jumping off just before the class and putting A/O on.that does not seem very fair also.
and I will agree with metal on the nose band if its covered but no pokeys Every horse here can be ridden anywhere in a halter some ride better in a halter that in a bit

As for Pleasure I have notice 50/50 on excusing the performances horses thats a good thing I feel they should also do this to the fino horse that go in the class.
one skill I would love to see in pleasure is the ability to walk on a loose rein I have seen more than enough Pleasure classes where horses and so held in its amazing the horse can breath and the rider looks scared to death .Its a pleasure class as least look like its fun theses are the horse spectator come to see and decide if they want to by one

remenber these are my option and I'm in no way trying to offend anyone just state me feelings

[motorgypsy]

Show pleasure is a good name - not quite as insulting as "fino wannabe" :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: I would like to see the country pleasure take an equal share of the show with the true pleasure horses being competitive. This doesn't mean that someone should be able to bring their unevenly gaited "fun paso" in and win but it does mean we can have the pleasure of looking at more horses that the average horse owner would enjoy riding just for fun. Beautiful, spirited but laid back and relaxed - a pleasure to watch and ride.

[SandyMM]

one skill I would love to see in pleasure is the ability to walk on a loose rein
That _used_ to be the hallmark of the pleasure class - horses that could and would do a flat walk on a loose rein.... anybody with a death grip in 'pleasure' class ought to be excused on the spot

[CarolU]

Terry the rule would read the same as it does for Fino and Performance Schooling.

Lori, the signature rule is for the purpose Stella described, so people would quit signing the papers for an Amature to show on their horse, but never buy it. The problem with the rule is that it also then precludes you from buying a horse at a show and showing it. Of course they could skip the rule if they followed up and fined the people who break the eixisting rule.

They could also end this with just a plain AMATURE class, and then all amatures could ride the professional's horses, not just the ones who can afford to own it. (IMO) There is no requirement for the kids to own their horses and you should SEE some of the horses they ride! :shock:

Serendipity, the Division you'd like to see is Amature Owned/Amature Trained, where a horse can't have been with a trainer for at least six months. That will never happen - for two reasons. It would add a third group of classes to every Division (at least 2 more days at Nationals) and it would make it where people could show their horses successfully without the services of a professional trainer :shock: As it stands right now there are very FEW Amatures who can train and condition their horse on a Nationals level successfully without a full-time trainer. JUST to have a horse in good enough condition to gait for 45 minutes in one class REQUIRES it be ridden a lot DAILY.

Suezette - I owe you an apology. I was relating how the rules and reasons were written in PFHW about the metal nose bands, and adding some sarcasm. I would never condone putting metal on a schooling horse's nose and if a horse NEEDS it, I certainly would not consider that a Pleasure Division candidate. I will be voting against that rule change (and I'd vote against metal in every schooling class IF that were a proposal).

This will be an interesting meeting. They also have the chance to add two classes to Country Pleasure for those Trail/Pleasure horses. If they don't, and DO vote to take the pleasure language out of the Pleasure Division, I think they will be telling 85% of the membership where to take their marbles --- elsewhere.

[Andres V]

So our "pleasure horse" should not be represent by a horse suitable to trail and pleasure riding - what should they be suitable for?
This asociacion is ruin what it's own rule book was. So now dont make breeder & horse fit rule book, just change rule.
And "quality of show horse" what was it before - garbage? Is the final step to eliminate the smooth gentle breed that was so loved when first cam here.
Membership should take back asociacion and make others form their own "fino asociacion" since this one was here first.
Average owner will not be welcome in show pretty soon but please keep give money to a asociacion that does not support you...DUH as CarolU says. Andres

[CarolU]

Very well said Andres...

[Ginger]

Ok, a dumb "rehash for me because I didn't read both pages" question:

As it stands NOW, am I able as an amateur to ride Lori's Graybaby (also amateur status) in Country pleasure, versatility, open pleasure, and anything not "amateur"-stamped?

I'm confused. The PFHA needs to employ people with competence of the English language. There are so many silly little mis-wordings.. you'd think King James had the rulebook translated.

[Abejita]

"Metal on Nosepiece or under chin - to allow COVERED metal on nosepieces and chin pieces at schooling pleasure classes (it is already allowed in schooling Performance and Fino classes.Rationale is to make the head gear for all schooling classes the same.)
Carol wrote
The reason is that apparently metal is needed for (these baby schooling) horses to perform their best. Carol I dont see that written anywhere. You also left out COVERED..Trying to incense people?? ;-)

In SCHOOLING classes especially 3 yr old , if someone starts a horse when you all think they should (not before 2 1/2 , 3 years old (mind you I agree with that ) the horse may not be as well broke and need a little extra in the headgear..now yeah you are all gonna say well then dont show the horse..but face it it is a business for a majority of horses in the ring..and if you dont have them out there you cant sell them.

Also in SCHOOLING classes, many times a horse is shown in different divisions until they figure out wher that horse belongs..helps exhibitors from having to chnage headgear ..

[CarolU]

Crystal, Country Pleasure is an Amature Owner class. The human is the one with the Amature status, not the horse. The same horse can be qualified and compete in both Open and Amature classes at the same show. What makes Country Pleasure different (other then judging or rules) is that the horse can't have been with a professional trainer for 30 days. Of course, this is pretty unenforcable.

Sheri, I was paraphrasing the reasons givin in the PFHW. They said the [harsher] headgear was needed so the schooling plesure horses could perform better (nothing was said about "control").

I came from a world where "no metal is allowed, regardless of how taped or padded."

What I find funny in the A/O Pleasure classes is that some of the riders have so little control over the horse and I have seen them actually buck or rear and have to either dismount or have someone come in and lead the horse from the ring. They still got ribbons because the rearing was after the judges cards were in, but the horse was hot as h--- for the entire class. Then the person takes the same horse back in the championship and pins again.....some pleasure horse.


I personally see nothing wrong with a person buying a horse at a show and then showing it A/O. But there should be a signed and perhaps notarized bill of sale and a requirement that the horse change ownership with a transfer of papers within 30 days or a loss of points and perhaps a suspension of the rider for a certain amount of time. It would put an end to phony sales so someone could show a horse A/O that neither the owner wanted to sell or the rider planned to purchase.

Marelyn (posting on Alex's account)

[Barbwire]

I like the rules for trail riding best:

1. get on horse

2. ride horse

3. have fun


See, isn't that easy to understand?

[Edurne]

Yeah sister!!!!!! Get on horse, go out - happy rider - happy horse!

[moonrize]

DITTO Barb!!

The shows are way out of line with what we really want with our horses anymore. A good pleasure horse used to be just that - a horse that was a pleasure to own and ride. Country pleasure should be opened up as a regular class - damn, it's by far the hardest class to ride. Performance is so easy - ride one way, turn, ride the other way. They don't have any manners any more, no back. Just chug-a-chug-a through the class.

Yep, trail riding rules are much bettter :D

[Mellifluous]

This is the very reason that I am not a member. I will become a member for a year to get a horse registered at a reduced rate. There is nothing else that the association offers that I feel would make it worthwhile to be a member.

[motorgypsy]

On the other side - we trail ride with many show people and they ride their show horses. They are well mannered and wonderful rides. Yes there are badly behaved paso finos in the show ring but there are also many wonderfully mannered and wonderfully gaited paso finos that happen to be shown, that happen to win but that are also trail and fun horses.

It just appears to us that the breed has grown and evolved to the point where there needs to be a fourth full category. Many of us with fino line horses with tighter but truly outstanding gait with good range of gait do not want to show fino, do not want our horses trained fino but want to show them. They don't really fit a class that is true pleasure, nor do they fit the performance class because we don't jazz them up to that level and they don't have the more energetic action that the performance horse has. So these horses end up being shown in pleasure simply because there isn't another class for them. Since they seem to be more popular with the judges and win more, the true pleasure paso fino no longer has a place to show and win.

So we can create a new class for the less energetic action, tighter gaited horses and call it something else like "collected pleasure" or put country pleasure on the same footing as fino, pleasure and performance and provide the much needed forum for our true pleasure horses. We don't really care which, but not having a category for the true pleasure horse is economically unsound, especially in a small breed, since this is the class that will sell the most horses to the "new to the breed" horse lovers. So rather than have philosophical arguements, let's get behind this push to create one more full category to help our breed become more marketable to the "other breed" owners.

[finolover]

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like the rules for trail riding best:

1. get on horse

2. ride horse

3. have fun


See, isn't that easy to understand?
waaaaalllll pilgrims..i broke the first rule....
it jest aint thet easy to show in this class...gotta armchair class :confused
:cooldude

[Kerry W]

Trail Pleasure...get rid of those baby schooling classes (give them one more year to mature), so we don't have to make the shows longer.

[Barbwire]

This is the very reason that I am not a member. I will become a member for a year to get a horse registered at a reduced rate. There is nothing else that the association offers that I feel would make it worthwhile to be a member.

You got that right!

[Pasogirlz]

I'll be honest, I let my membership lapse after the first year I was in...since I couldn't show my own horses b/c they weren't ready for different reasons, I didnt' think to keep it. I only need it to show since I'm not a big time breeder like most of us.....but if I could show other ppl's horses w/an amatuer card it might give me a reason to keep my membership and pay to come to compete and support the breed and get more involved. ;-)

It believe I heard the ATTA shows you are allowed to show someone elses horse and not be the owner. Does anyone know that for sure? Or is it the same type thing...using a "contract" as proof of ownership?

[Terry Wallace]

Abejita..thanks for the clarification on the noseband. I have no problem with a leather covered noseband. I have two I got from CasaDosa..same thing, one brown, one black. It is about one inch wide, has a thin metal strip between the leather to give the noseband shape & body...its very light weight. It is standard training gear, and worn as a first noseband by many a Paso Fino. You can bend it back & forth easily in your hand...

This would be the noseband used on many double rein set-ups. The one you use BEFORE the horse graduates to a plain flat leather noseband...
I would vote YES for that. I would Not vote YES on a leather covered soild casted serreta type band that is covered in leather. Those cannot be bent (easily) by your hand.....and would be rounded and stiff, covered with leather.

Lets remember that tack is only as damaging as the hands that use it...I can say I have never had any kind of problem caused with a leather covered nose band. I want to make it clear that these nose bands do not have the leather bump balls protruding through and onto the nose bones...

[Abejita]

and here again..no matter what the change is..it is left too 'open ended' There has to be more definition to the rule..changed or not

[Terry Wallace]

I hope Lynn G or Cindy G will clarify!!

Casted serreta type metal...non-bendable?

OR....flat metal strip for shape? Easily bendable in your hands...?

[LynnG]

Country Pleasure is an Amature Owner class. The human is the one with the Amature status, not the horse. The same horse can be qualified and compete in both Open and Amature classes at the same show. What makes Country Pleasure different (other then judging or rules) is that the horse can't have been with a professional trainer for 30 days. Of course, this is pretty unenforcable.

Country Pleasure only needs am Amateur status rider AND can NOT have been with a "professional" in training for the previous 30 days. No way to regulate this, and I know it has been brought into question before that a pro had ridden a country pleasure horse prior to a show. Doesn't have to be owner rider for this class.

A judge can excuse a horse for what they deem to be too harsh, cruel or inhumane headgear. Unless specified smooth metal and certain width of metal over the nose even if covered, can open a can of worms. Less then 1/2" curb chain is not allowed as it is deemed cruel in any classes..I have seen it too..a homemade curb chain..yes it has more bite. Do the show pleasure horses need metal over the nose to compete successfully? Forget about the fino and performance rules. So what is a show pleasure horse suppose to represent...should be a willing, pleasant, pleasing attitude and forward moving. Is metal over the nose needed to get that?

my 2 cents.

[Terry Wallace]

Sooo..I'm STILL confused! WHAT kind of metal in the noseband???

Here is the type of noseband I use for training... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/BlacktrainingnosepieceCLOSEREMAIL.jpg


You can bend it back & forth easily... it is enough metal...probably like the thickness of a hacksaw blade or metal pallet banding, that just gives body & shape to the noseband...

[Terry Wallace]

Hey Carol U.....What kind of metal do YOU think they are talking about? I think you are talking casted metal serreta...but that may not be the case..

ANYBODY?????

[Fino1]

"Show Pleasure"?
Why not just go with "Classic Performance" and Classic Pleasure"?
Then just maybe Pleasure and Performance with go back to what they were years back?
Just a thought.........

Oh.......AND........personally and I've said this before (not recently).......the age of schooling horse NEEDS to be changed to FOUR ..........PERIOD.......

And I totally agree with the "covered metal". It's used in training gear.........and isn't a "schooling" age horse still in training?
JMO

[Cindy]

It is for ANY metal covered nose band. This is the current rule for the other divisions. They can currently be shown with bits with six inch long shanks instead of the covered metal noseband if you think that is the better way to go for a schooling horse. Personally, I would rather save the mouth and ride a horse with covered metal on the much less sensitive nose if this is what that particular horse works best in. You know, bits are metal and the mouth is way more sensitive than the nose.

[Terry Wallace]

THANKS for clarifying that..... Cindy.

I can hardly believe this "rule" is so "subject to interpretation" and not more specific.

In this case...I must vote NO..... because that WOULD include the harshest design a person could come up with, and cover with leather...

The PFHA needs to narrow it down, be much more specific..... if you ask me!

Yeah...so its O>K> to use a bit with incredible mouth-crushing leverage...but no metal in nosebands like I use all the time....Go Figure!

[CarolU]

Sorry...I'm at work and could only come on at lunch. The rule does not exclude any kind of metal, so anything metal "covered" would be allowed.

I personally think we should be going the OPPOSITE way - towards more humane methods. And I also agree with eleminating 3-year-old schooling classes...maybe we should propose that next time around.

A common western training gear is the western bosal that is braided leather over a cable. It is pliable, but the leather braid can be pretty harsh.

Terry I would have no problem with the training gear you have...I have the same thing...indeed, it is pliable and I had no idea there was metal sewn inside the leather. What I'd hate to see are the serettas, or the balls, or the screws or nails or any of the other "training gear" (aka torture devices) they've come up with.

There are enough Paso Finos with scared noses now.

[SandyMM]

Sill looking for some more typicial examples...
http://www.frenerialopez.com/veresp/serre.htm

[Terry Wallace]

YEAH!! Sandy and thank you for posting that... Nope, I would not want those allowed on ANY horse, for ANY reason, leather covered or not.....talk about training short cuts.....that is a FINE example of several.

If you HAVE to ride with something like that...guess what? The horse is NOT ready to ride! ;-)

[Cindy]

As Lynn pointed out earlier, there is still a rule that allows judges to excuse a horse for headgear that they deem too harsh, cruel or inhumane. As I said before, this rule Makes Pleasure the same as what is already written for the Performance and Fino divisions and I have never seen anything like the pictures that Sandy posted on any horse in the ring. And I have seen quite a few horses in the ring all over the country.

[Terry Wallace]

Thats a GOOD thing... The only place I ever saw tack like that was at Nationals...(for sale at the booths) NOT on a horse...

I was sure serretas were outlawed by PFHA, had seen that in the rule book some years ago......BUT....did not know if they were if they were covered with leather......the hard casted metal I had described above in another post here.

This is why I was asking for clarification...I STILL think evberybody should be sent a NEW rule book, everytime you renew your membership, if ANY rule has been changed in that year time period (if you are a previous member...and everytime a NEW member signs up) The last time I got a rule book sent to me was 2001.

Terry,

My house has never gotten a rule book. Only have it cause we printed it out. Do they even send it out anymore?

[Terry Wallace]

I think you have to BUY it..... I just renewed my mebership ...a "family" membership...cost me $75.00 (includes PFH World magazine..wether you want it or not...I WANT it)...but....I think they could at least send a rule book out.... I HATE paging through the PDF files on the PFHA.org site.... and its sure not very handy if you are at a show...like having your rule book is....

[Serendipity]

Everyone in favor of a Country Pleasure Divion Say "Ai"

Ai

Next we need to speak to the people on the board those in charge of A/O then maybe shows can have some fun.

At some of the shows I go to they have novice classes these are for people that have shown but never placed first I though it'd be a fun thing to try but I did not quilify I showed a Western horse and got 1st(only one in the class)

Show is a serouis business but its getting harder and harder to get in exspecally if you new and don't throw your money around if you had any to throw like me my moto is "Pasos on Pennies :D "

But think about it Counrty Pleasure devision :question The trainer stay off the horses for 30 day it would be a treat to show with real people on real horses.But I also feel there shoul be an open one to allow pro's why should they not enjoy a quiet horse from time to time.

Whated to see nasty head gear at Nat'l should have been in the arean after the show each night :twisted: :twisted:

[LynnG]

You can buy the printed rulebook from PFHA for $10. Otherwise it is available online at the pfha website. PFHA doesn't mail it out as part of the membership dues anymore.

The most cruel headgear I have seen in the showring was a small block of wood wrapped with electrial tape under the chin. Needless to say whether it was inhumane as the horse was raw and bleeding where it was hitting the jaw...and not just a little spot rubbed raw. The horse was disqualified/excused ... that is where the white towel comes in handy...if you put the towel against the sore spot and it shows red blood... there is no arguing about whether it is bleeding or not! Mostly you don't see anything illegal. If someone has a question they can ask the steward prior to the class. Judges need to check the headgear tack though at lineup.

Otherwise, hard plastic or metal ball bearings in bosals are what I come across next most. Then it depends upon whether an indention is made in the nose...degree of pressure applied by rider.

Metal serretas (more smooth) were more seen back in 70's then what I see now. I did see a thin wire connected to the top of a Colombian spoon bit high on the tongue; hard to see in fact ... on a Rocky horse when I served as equipment judge at their Intl. show 2 years ago. Now that was an eye opener eyebrow raisin' for me to discover that. :shock:

[Abejita]

But think about it Counrty Pleasure devision The trainer stay off the horses for 30 day it would be a treat to show with real people on real horses.But I also feel there shoul be an open one to allow pro's why should they not enjoy a quiet horse from time to time.

Ok Maybe I misunderstand the CP division thing but it isnt going to be a 'have your cake and eat it too' situation..If it becomes its own division ,it WILL be open to pro trainers, which in turn makes the '30 day rule" moot.. right?

[GeorgeGuns]

Oh I love a juicey debate, lol.
A/O - i always read that abbreviation as short for Amatuer Owner, which to me implies that the owner is riding the horse. PFHA could concievably open up this class to make it just Amatuer, skip the owner part, and require the 30 day rule on trainer contact.
BUT I also don't really have a problem with trainers getting on a horse and then handing it over to the owner to ride in a class, the trainer I would hope is giving some tips to an owner that has hired a trainer for a reason - to help the owner do a better job in an area where they don't have the expertise. Fine with me. I realize that is a warm and fuzzy perspective, and that there are less warm and fuzzy applications.
IF the Amatuer class is opened up to include non owners, I also dont' really think that it needs to have an extra amatuer trainer designation. I see it this way. IF I do a good job training my horse, and go in and show well in an Amatuer class, word will get out that i did the training, cuz the first word out of anyone's mouth is "whose the trainer?". After all, most of the horses in A/O classes are professionally trained anyway, the rider may or may not screw up, the horse may or may not have a good day.

Pleasure - what do we call it? Well I do like the idea of calling it show pleasure, it does lend a verbal help to newbies. BUT I dont' think the horses in the ring should be fire breathing dragons just because its a "show" class horse. I don't care what you call the class, if it says pleasure anywhere, the horse should appear to be a pleasure to ride, not fighting the headgear, not tense and all het up.

What about the rest of the 85%? That's where I fit, and I for one am NOT aspiring to get into the "show" classes. What is the big deal? The "other 85%" are the ones that should be plugging the classes that our kind of Paso Fino fits in - Trail, Verstatility, Western Pleasure, and Country Pleasure. My fear is that these classes will become overrun with nutty dragon horses and really ruin it for those of us that want to promote this breed as an all around horse.

Maybe we should have "Show" classes: Fino, Performance, Pleasure, and "Natural" or "Using" classes. Calling them entertainment classes is something I find just a little degrading, like "aw look at the cute little pasos that don't fit into the Big Man's classes". Poo on that. We need to, as a membership, support the REAL (IMO) classes, not the "show" classes.

So, to me, the solition isn't that hard:
Open up the A/O to plain old Amatuer, let the show pleasure be called that, enforce the rules in every class.

Schooling: I too agree that the age should be made to 4 year olds. And that uncovered metal not be allowed. IF a horse needs that to get in a ring, it ain't ready, jmho. Me, I have a problem getting my horses out of a rope hackamore, lol, and I sure can't show in that now can I? They like the rope hacks so much they don't want to wear a jaquima! I'm not even a trainer, and I don't have the calmest bloodlines, so if I can get these kids going in a piece of string, then why does any horse have to be shown in metal???[/i]

[Abejita]

IF the Amatuer class is opened up to include non owners, I also dont' really think that it needs to have an extra amatuer trainer designation.

I dont think anyone is trying to make an extra 'amatuer trainer' designation..They are wanting to basically make Country Pleasure a division just like any other ,where you have A/O classes and 'open' (aka Pro) classes. A/O Cp, schooling CP, Mares CP etc etc...

of course there was the other proposal that just split it into two sections (not a complete division) One CP class open to ALL riders, one open to only A/O..also removing the 30 day rule.

Then there is the proposal to KEEP the 30 day rule but further define it by adding that 'handling by a professional from the ground does not disqualify the horsefrom this class"

and that uncovered metal not be allowed
Uncovered metal is not allowed now and the rule changes stupulate covered

[Abejita]

Ok ..to those who want to keep the 30 day rule..How do you propse to enforce it?

[LynnG]

I read where the Europe Paso Fino owner group has a class for loose reined horses or "natural gaiters". There will be an article about this group and their activities in the FEB PFHW.

:lol:

[Serendipity]

You might not be able to enforse the 30 day traainer off the horse except for those that do try to fallow the rules.But and a show week end or week the A/O is completely in charge of the horse they do the warm up the riding all of it.
It won't be hard to tell.
I do think a trainer should supervise whats going on.
But the A/O that wants to show there horse shou;d be able to ride there own horseI've seen pleanty of train wrecks that happen on hot horses the A/O can't ride the trainer has no problem with it.

But on the flip side I have seen trainers ans A/O both riding and working horses to together I respect that they are a team
I really don't think there is a completly right anwer but it would be nice for the class to be spit in to Show Pleaure and Counrty Pleasure aleast have he ruled strong enough that it allows for the more natural Paso Fino and not the ones that are pushed so hard

well enough said for me here.

[George Marlow]

Regarding organizations and rule changes.
I belong to an organization that has been around for a long while, it has functioned
great under the orginal guidelines with very few significant modifications. There
is always someone who attempts to sell a better "mouse trap" poping off suggested
changes with very little thought. We waste a ton of time on insignificant issues which
distracts us form spending time on truly significant ones, and it pisses me off every
time!!!!!!!.(sorry lost it). I would categorize the 2 changes that began this thread to
be insignificant of minimal impact and a waste of time.
1.) Metal for Pleasure(for really kinky folks maybe but not for this class)
2.) Why bother removing

It got lost in the long thread on rule changes but my pet peeve is flat walk
in the Pleasure class, its a requirement, I think maybe a true flat walk should always be perfomed on a loose rein.

Thanks again for your input on the other thread.
Sorry had to edit this, pulled the trigger to quick on submit.

Cordially
George

[Terry Wallace]

Here is my pet peeve.... (Yeah...like I only have one!)..a horse is not a true A/O horse...if it is trained by a pro trainer...

I DO have a problem with a trainer riding a horse and then handing it over to the A/O at the gate to the arena.

I wish that Amature Owner MEANT trained AND shown strictly by an amature.... I feel it is unfair to those A/O's who cannot afford professional training, yet must compete against horses who are 100% pro trained... by A/O's who keep their "A/O" horses with trainers! ;-)

[Serendipity]

:notworthy So Very Well Said Terry :notworthy