Apache--More info!

[Candice Burger]

I just received a photograph of a painting of Apache. He's very much a pinto and chestnut! I didn't have time to resize it, upload the pic, but will do so ASAP tonight!

To refresh everyone's memory, here's the link about what I've found out so far.

http://www.americanpasofinos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8772

A special thanks to Super Sleuth Denisse Cancel for providing the pic! Thanks Denisse!

[Terry Wallace]

Here is Apache in an old photograph...posted for Candice.
He looks TOBINO... tobiano with some expression of sabino gene markings: chin spot, wide irregular blaze that apparently includes his left ear, with tobiano type body markings; chest shield, flank color and white over the back between wither & tail.

Candice...who are the listed dam and sire of this horse?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/ApachephotoWEB.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

Candice...just an observation.... this horse has large bone rather like a TWH.... with substancial feet....
How do you feel about the phenotype of this horse, judging what you can from this 3/4 front view posted above?

[Cindy]

It's the father of all pintos!!!!!. Terry, I see many characteristics in this horse that I see in our pintos today. Right down to shape of the hooves. Kind of eerie actually.

[Red Ryder]

Info I have lists Appache lineage

dam =Sofia a Negera [Dulde Sueno X Sofia Alazav]
sire =Ponce [Guamani X Caricoca]

Have no idea if this is correct

[motorgypsy]

Sounds like some kind of common ancestor with this guys and TW's. As a teen I used to go to TW shows all the time and never saw a pinto. I've always wondered when or where the pinto came from in the TW's??? Gotta check on that.

Here's the first TW sire who was black
In 1885, a cross between a stallion called Allendorf, from the Hambletonian family of trotters, and Maggie Marshall, a Morgan mare, produced a black colt with a white blaze, off hind coronet and near hind sock, Black Allan, foal of 1886. He was later to be chosen by the Tennessee Walking Horse Breeders' Association as the foundation sire of the Tennessee Walking Horse and designated as Allan F-1. While the bloodlines of the Gray Johns, Copperbottoms, Slashers, Hals, Brooks and Bullett families ran thick and produced a type known as the Tennessee pacer prior to the arrival of Allan F-1 in Middle Tennessee, it was a cross between Allan and the Tennessee Pacer that produced today's Tennessee Walking Horse.

Since the Spanish liked color I wonder if the color came from the original Spanish horses that were raised on the islands? Seems likely.

[Kerry W]

Could y'all at least pretend this wasn't a set up? :lol:

[motorgypsy]

It does seem likely to me that this is the origin of the TW's since the first horses on the continent were bred out on the islands.

[Cindy]

Could y'all at least pretend this wasn't a set up?

Could you please explain that statement as I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Terry Wallace]

Sorry you feel that way Kerry.... it is no "set-up". I was asked to post a photo and I did. :roll:

Merely an observation of the horse I wanted to comment on.

[Carol Nelson]

He sure is purdy...he could eat cookies in my barn any day! :lol:

[Terry Wallace]

I wish we had some side-view photos of him to look at....
he sure has large hock joints...as well as substancial bone.

[Kerry W]

Terremoto has substanital bone and large hocks...is he a TWH too, or do you suppose they slipped a Percheron in on us? :lol:

[sporthorse]

Chicken /egg or Pollo/ Huevo ---tomato or tum aw toe?
colonist =Cristobal Colon or Christopher Colombus sent Italian sent by Spanish? Ok now what is the set up or question? I got it. Gait from Palfrey or Jennet or Icey? then Nargaganset Pacer or washed ashore spanish/barb/criollo?
be sure to read the gentics study on the link after the history is the goals section that refrences the studies and DNA link to paso finos.
Pintos from isles like the wild ones in PR.
http://www.arkwild.org/shorthistory/sstory.html

[Terry Wallace]

I've seen Juan-Juan offspring with large hocks. Generally speaking...PF don't have lots of bone coming out of PR.... most are light boned.

Now... who SAID the horse was TWH? And better yet... what color are the parents... one must be a toby...

Was Ducle Sueno just misspelled? Is it Ducle Sueno and not
"Dulde" Sueno... if so...he was not toby, but rather sabino characteristic, Guamani was not toby either...so that leaves the mares Sofia & Caricoca, one of which had to be toby to pass a toby gene...anybody "got colors" on those mares?

[Kerry W]

The toby in the TWH (aren't they Spotted Saddle Horses?) didn't just come from Sherwin Williams...likely a barb horse (and there appears to be evidence that some of them had pinto markings)...and that'd be "Spanish Barb" horses...so is it remotely possible that these pinto Pasos could have been descendants of the spotted Spanish Barb horses? Any possiblitly at all?

The set up is evident to those who orchestrated it...just wanted them to know it was as blaring as the noonday son in the Sahara. ;-)

[motorgypsy]

Dulce Sueno looks like a big boy. Our PPR mare is a huge, big boned girl but our 7/8 PPR is the delicately built type. I've seen quite a number of the big boned PPR's including Frost, the chocolate palomino stallion. He's a hunk too. Guamani was big, Batalla and Kofresi, narrow but elegant plus the others I've mentioned before - tiny, elegant but not delicate or narrow and tall, coarse and rawboned PPR's.

[Cindy]

I think you may be a bit paranoid, Kerry. :lol:

[Terry Wallace]

Of course that is possible Kerry...nobody is saying that cannot be the case. I would offer that there may be more to it than "just one or more barbs"...since Americans do LOVE color, and it is already known that TWH was crossed on some PR horses... TWH shipped to PR in an attempt to "upsize" the breed line.

What is so hard to believe about that? ALL breeds come from crossbreeding somewhere along the line....

What is so hard to believe that a tobiano from "some other breed" was used to get a certain color somebody wanted to get years ago?

That kind of thing happened all the time before DNA testing came into use...
It happened in QH, it happened in other stock horse breeds and it just happened in the Andalusian/Lusitano breed merge quite recently.

Now, there are Andalusians of single dilute colors..... where do you think that came from?
The Andalusian is a horse breed with color ID very far back...and you won't find single dilutes or pinto Andalusians in their stud records.... only grey, bay, chestnut and the occasional black. So...where did that dilute gene come from....?

Here is another question... with the rey Cometa line...how come we don't see more single or double dilutes coming from that line?

These are the questions some of us ponder....

The more pedigrees you study...the more you will find out that in certain lines... colors are shown for offspring that could NOT have come from the dam & sire shown... I would not put "absolute faith" in some of those old pedigrees ... they have to be wrong... just as the color shown for Lisanna de Vargas is incorrect among many more I have studied....

Outcrossing for size (upsizing) is another thing, as is outcrossing for better confo and such as what happened with the Appaloosa, even so far as crossing them with Akhal teke horses (currently going on)... people "want what they want" and often outcross to get that hybrid vigor...

[Linda Y]

Pepe U S/R, the tobiano pinto stallion I had that was imported from PR had large bone, too. One farrier told me he had the best backend she had ever seen on a horse. He also had good size feet, a flat across the top rump and incredible disposition. He did pass this on to his get. In the first picture, he is 20 years old. The second he is probably 25. May be older in that second one...can't remember.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/yorkhrse/pasos/pepday1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/yorkhrse/pasos/pep2copy.jpg

[Linda Y]

Outcrossing for size (upsizing) is another thing, as is outcrossing for better confo and such as what happened with the Appaloosa, even so far as crossing them with Akhal teke horses (currently going on)... people "want what they want" and often outcross to get that hybrid vigor...

What??? Man I would hate to have that cross! Tekes can be NASTY. Are they trying for the metallic color? People can be such goofs. :roll:

[pnalley]

I believe the Nez Pierce are doing the cross breeding with the Akel Tekes's. In an attempt to get back to a more hardy, Appaloosa. With-out the QH features of heavy muscling, spindly legs and HyPP.

[cristy]

Wow Linda, What a good lookin boy! He could eat cookies in my barn anytime! ;-) I love the huge neck.

[Candice Burger]

Apache's parentage is Ponce X Primavera II

Ponce is supposedly a full brother to Juana de Arco which is Guamani X Carioca. Primavera II is unknown.

I doubt the authenticity of Ponce's lineage. It is very likely that Ponce is the father of Apache because Apache was bred by Wilfredo Bertran and Bertran used Ponce heavily. At the time that I asked about Ponce, he simply said that Ponce was a good horse. It was in a later conversation that Ponce was linked to Juana de Arco.

Juana de Arco's lineage is also questionable. I have found at least 3 contradictory sources about Juana de Arco. One source indicates that she was a Spanish mare from a line unrelated entirely to the Dulce Sueno family or to Guamani, son of Dulce Sueno. I tend to believe that source because her influence was distinctive and the phenotype more substantial. She was extremely influential where you see her. Bertran said that Juana de Arco was a daughter of Guamani however, I think this deserves further investigation.

Another reason for leaning towards Juana de Arco as a different line is how she appears in pedigrees. As Terry mentioned, pedigrees from specific areas or breeders take on a "pattern" of sorts. Juana de Arco's appearance can be haphazard and is not reinforced in most pedigrees EXCEPT in one instance and that is Bertran's use. Juana de Arco's contribution to the horse "Maravilla" hasn't been verified.

In Bertran's case, he owned Juana de Arco later in her life. This is a very important and distinctive point in the role Juana de Arco plays in pedigrees. Once he acquired her, he refreshed her line more heavily than others. If you pull up pedigrees tracing to Juan de Arco, you will see almost all of the lines are extinquishing except Bertran's. Juana de Arco is best represented by her son, Carabali, whom I understand was powerful. The line survives through Carabali and through Cuentas Claras, both bred by Bertran.

The problem with allot of PPR in the USA is that many were either military horses and most did not have substantial bone nor size to begin with OR they were inbred to Kofresi, which was famous for his "refined" phenotype and gait. Inbreeding to Kofresi only reinforces a thinner, lighter horse. In Puerto Rico there were plenty of horses of good bone and structure. Plebeyo, Salamero, Airoso, Alicante, etc. None with any pinto background.

I agree with the general assessment that Apache has better bone and substance that allot of PPR seen today. However, I can't comfortably say why that is until I knew more about the horse because I've also seen plenty of substantial horses from PPR lines that have no pinto at all. I would have to ask those who knew Apache personally to point out the phenotype of a horse they thought best represented Apache. I think it very possible that there's something besides a "pure" paso not too distant in Apache's lineage. Either Ponce or Primavera II ain't what they are supposed to be.

I forgot to add that in my previous thread about Apache that I found out Ponce was pinto as well. So were Juana de Arco and Ponce blood relations or not?

[Terry Wallace]

Sooo...have you got a photo of Ponce? Anybody?
I'd like to see him.....

Hey Linda.... Pepe was built like a stock horse! Highly desirable to me :D

Yes, Paula got the Akhal Teke info correct, I saw a show about it on TV

[Candice Burger]

Dunno. Maybe our super sleuth, Denisse can help.

[Rafael Arbelo]

FYI

Primavera II was "mosqueada" in color (Rucia) with a lot of white (looked like an Apaloosaa) and was bred by Caroberto Colon. Ponce was dark bay with no white whatsoever.

[Candice Burger]

One has to be tobiano. That is the law of genetics. Tobiano is a simple dominant inherited gene. That means for a tobiano to exist one parent also expresses the tobiano gene.

So, was Primavera II a tobiano horse? Hmmm, I'll have to check about where I got that Ponce was pinto.

This spanish term, rucio, is too confusing. Roan, pinto, grey, rabicana, sabino are all rucios. And the term, mosequeada, I've heard apply to roans. The mare "Mosqueada" for Dulce Sueno's dam was called that because of her coloring. So was she pinto too? Or was she roan or simply had allot of white?

[Terry Wallace]

Candice I think I may have a photo of Primavera II... would that have been a mare that Elsie Fox once had?
If so...those "pintos" were sabinos.....if memory serves...I will have to check for a photo at home....

[Candice Burger]

Well, dunno Terry. I'd have to check the birth dates on the horses. Ponce and Juana de Arco are late models but I can't remember exactly the time period. And the practice of breeding mares very young could mean Primavera II was still a filly herself when she was bred.

I have two possible sources about Ponce. One is the PPR FED stud book, which I'll check tonight and another was through a PPR breeder but not Bertran, the owner of Ponce. I need to invest in a tape recorder and document conversations. Allot of info flows strictly through oral history.

Gads, there are days I wish for less mythos and mystery.

[Terry Wallace]

The photo I have of a "Primavera" is this one, from the collection of Dr. Jose Laracuente.

Primavera surely is tobiano...or possibly tobino (chin spot present)....so now I wonder if this Primavera is related to Primavera II...
GOT to be a tobiano gene here somewhere! ;-)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/PrimaveraPPR1958ChampLarWEB.jpg

[motorgypsy]

We also saw the program on apps and tekes and it's the endurance they want from what we understood. But the original apps were gaited and tekes aren't so it seems to me they'd do better with a Spanish mustang than a teke???

[Candice Burger]

I'm with you on this one Terry. The white pattern, as loud as it is, with the colored spotting suggests sabino, tobiano in play. Kinda weird to see only a sabino and such a smooth, defined pattern of color in the middle of all that. I would expect allot of sharp, jaggedness and quite a bit of "roaning" where there was some color.

Now if this is the same Primavera. I can only guess.