How human are pasos?

[jmtw]

I'm curious about something.
Alot of people post about how much their horse loves them and
vice-versa.
I wonder how many who have horses like that actually train them? Training involves discipline. A whip used in the roundpen or whatever.
Does discipline effect the horses feelings?
I know you can train a dog, and if he loves you then he loves you regardless of what you do. Are horses like that?

I hope I'm making sense. It's irrelevant, but I am curious.

[ErinC]

RESPECT,
YES,
I have a 5 yr old right now that will do anything for me and my daughter because we have a bond, but if somone else goes out there he will question them, and not do things for them untill he can trust them.
this horse is 3 times Hilaches, and sensitive, but AWESOME.

My Baby is the VERY close to me, I think he think I am his mom, He is a yearling coming two yr old colt, and I carry a dressage whip while we do our ground work, I use it like a stick to guide him left right, forward back, and he will get a little crack on the chest if he bites, paws or strikes out,


I think ANY horse, ( animal ) becomes CLOSE to who is the handler the most. and will trust that person if they have given them a reason to,
I know my guys trust me because I have taken them so many places, and gone through so many "FIRST TIME" things that they trust me because they did not get hurt.

I think Discipline creates respect, and respect creates a bond.
YUP, thats my opinion and I an sticking with it! LOL!!! ;-)

[motorgypsy]

We certainly train ours but I don't know that we own any the "love" us in the way a dog loves its master or a mare loves a foal. Trust is what we look for. I think for a horse to truly love the human it has to bond to the human the way it would to a pasture mate or its mother. An orphan foal in particular I think can love a human and an "only" horse can also. We don't want a dog pack type of dependence from our horses because we can't bring them in the house and we can't keep them with us most of the timet. We want them to be horses on their own terms, to enjoy the herd experience minus the stallion of course - he's across the fence though and does look after them - to be horses. They also know the rules are different for us and that they must obey the rules. By restricting food and hand feeding a difficult horse we do become a surrogate mother for that horse and this enables us to establish a much strong bonder than just training.

Now that said, there have been times when we are convinced that our bond with some of our horses in particular is very strong. For example - we were riding in Hitchcock woods and like really dummies had put vetrolin shine on the horses before we saddled up. We rode in at a good largo and Kyle being on his superlargo mare got to a pause point before I did so he turned his mare to wait for me. When he did his saddle slipped and he ended up on the ground under his mare's belly between her legs with the saddle under her belly. Now this is a very high strung, chili pepper type mare who never stands still - well she does stand for mounting but it took a long time to achieve that. When this happened this mare, a maiden mare at the time, did not move a muscle. She stood there while he slowly and painfully (he was riding with three broken ribs but had on a vest and helmet) inched his way out from under her. She still didn't move until we got the saddle out from under her and back where it belonged. After a ten minute rest he felt that he was able to mount to head back out to the trailer since he was in severe pain. We were going to put him on my mare who is usually much better behaved but she danced around like she had stepped in a bunch of bees. So we thought - well we'll try his mare. Again she stook like she was frozen, allowed him to mount with my help, and walked like on egg shells all the way back to the trailer.

This mare never flat walks but she did then. She treated him like her own foal, took care of him when he needed it and behaved so much differently from the norm that it was obvious she knew he was injured. And yes we had done a huge amount of training with this mare including clicker training since she had had only 30 days training when we got her.

So to answer your question, proper training does not seem to have any effect or may even have a positive effect on your relation to your horse and the affection and trust they have for you.

[finolover]

3 times Hilaches,
i feel sorry fer ya.....
quito is more human than some people i know....half psychiatrist/ half lawyer...
ultimo , laid back and stubborn.......add..disorder ;-)

[Terry Wallace]

Horses aren't human at all...humans just like to equate human emotions to actions of horses.

I don't think horses "Love" humans... horses love other horses. If they had the choice, they would not seek out humans, but rather seek out other horses.

Horses are not like dogs either. Dogs will devote themselves to a human. Dogs are predatory pack animals and seek comfort & strength from their pack, and they will include you as master or pack-member.

Horses respond to a leader. If you will lead and respect...they will follow & respect.
If anything... a bit of respectful discipline in training, will earn you (the human) more trust from the horse, not less trust.
BUT...again..given the choice of human companionship..or ..horse companionship..... which do YOU think the horse would choose? ;-)
Nine times out of ten... horses choose horses. Horses who are easily intimidated by other horses, or horses who may be "over-inprinted" and don't know "how to be a horse" may fear other horses, but I cannot say they "Love" a human more.... that would be more of a trust issue OMO...

JMO...this topic always opens the "can of worms!"....

[jmtw]

Of course, Terry. What other cans are there to open? :smile:

[Brigitte]

Not sure if horses love, but they do show some feelings toward humans. Marinero doesn't really see me as the "leader" but more as another horse, he greets me when I get there, does alot of stuff for me, but still challenges me sometimes. But I know he likes me..I think so...I hope so.
But horses do form bonds, that I know.

[ErinC]

I love my Hilaches horse, he is SOOOO SMART, it takes a lot of trust , he now has that, but I would never sell him, because somone would not understand him, and I think it would take him along time to trust somone in a new place.

MIND you, I take this horse EVERY WHERE we go to other states, camp out, and go around over and through everything that any trail would have.
HE HAS to trust his owner, or you would be stuck out in the middle of NO where with a horse that was not going to move!

So my answer , like I said above they "show you" love , if they respect you, and trust you! I call it love.

[finolover]

Hilaches horse
i agree with terry..horses respect and bond....
hilachas horses ARE NOT FOR EVERYONE.........but if you have one and intend to keep it, they are the best teachers of humans ;-)

[Boyd R]

I'll tell ya though Terry. If Pluma had her choice she would bel living in the house with us. We left the areana set up to where she could go under the top board and the others could not. She spent most of this first year in the yard with us. If I am where she can get to me, many times when she is being bullied or needs protection she will choose to run to me rather than mom. We rarely give treats so food is not a motivation. She seeks us out for comfort and companionship. We take naps with her and she comes and lays with us. If we are outside she is usually by our side. If that ain't love so be it. I will take it what ever it is.

[motorgypsy]

The mare we mentioned that the saddle twisted on - double or triple Hilachas - can't remember which. She's sneaky too!

[finolover]

i unhooked quito's breast collor arse backward and then accidently dropped it ..startle reflex caused him to jump back and get his right front leg tangled up of the ground....he stood like a rock until i got it straightened out......he's come a long way.....and i really believe he's very intelligent....hilachas grandsonx plebeyo grandson.
in the right hands he would be an awesome trail horse....cowboy kevin rode him in downtown traffic, on the highway shoulder after dark....drunk on his arse....into a local bar and out the back door!!!!

he's quick to startle but smart enough not to get hurt :!:

[ErinC]

thats the KEY!
they are SMART , to SMART for the average JOE!


mine is
3x hilaches
and Juan Juan
and Lunares
with a few
Resorte III

quite the mix!
BUT I LOVE HIM!!!!

[El Indio Elegante]

I believe that at least my horse does love me. Indio loves other horses but if he has the choice between another horse and a human he always chooses the human. ALWAYS!! He is one of the smartest horses i have ever met. He was never trained. He was just taught. His original trainer worked with him to make him the horse he is. Indio used to follow him around no matter where he went. One time Indio got out of his stall at nationals. He didn't go anywhere other then to people who were sitting there on that isle. He didn't have a halter on nothing. they were able to go right up to him, all they did was put there arm around his nose and they walked him back to his stall. Indio has never had as much curiosity of horses as he has humans. even though he is too smart. He is too smart to be able to show him in the shows anymore. He has now learned the pattern of the commands they ask. Sometimes if he's not in the mood to lunge he lays down at looks at u sorta funny like i'm not doing this anymore. If he is near a fino horse he finos himself. when he wants something he raps with his mouth.

I do have to say one thing. I have alot of expieriance with other breeds of horses. The smartest breed i have ever come acrost so far is the paso fino. They seem to be the most intelligent. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Terry Wallace]

Erin..(not picking on you!) but what makes you think that another horseman would not "understand" your horse?

See...to me, that is an excellent example of human misconception when it comes to horses.

Boyd..over-imprinted horses TEND to be that way..."hint".
Mila would like nothing better than to come on in the house here too...she is most certainly over-imprinted. That was out of neccessity when she was born, a premature blind foal that could not stand...

I caution you...to let your foals learn to be HORSES. When they spend more time with humans than horses..it leads to lots of problems down the road. Boyd, I know this is your first foal... I do think you will see what I mean before that filly is three....

Personally...I feel it is a dis-service to a horse to be over-imprinted by humans...sometimes it is quite neccessary...like in Mila's case...she'd be dead had I not been present at her birth.

Let me tell you how Mila is now, at age 3-1/2...
She will RUN to me, from out of the herd...if I call her from the pasture...
This is VERY IMPRESSIVE indeed to people who have never observed the behavior of an over-imprinted horse...makes me look like the "Horse Whisperer of the Century", trainer extrodinair!! .... oh yes, very impressive...
If I am out fixing fence, or picking up the neighbor's trash that blows over to my property...guess who is by my side every minute....yep, Mila.
If I open the front door, guess who will neigh a greeting FIRST and loudest...Mila of course.
Which horse on the place is the easiest to do vet work, trimming, give shots,or anything else...Mila.
What horse can I take out of the pasture or pen, with nothing on her, completely loose... and let follow me around the yard, never ever offering to leave...you already know!
If I ride down and out the driveway...even though the rest of the herd is basically ignoring me...guess who is running down the fence line "crying" about it....Miss Mila. Guess who is "threatening" to try and jump over the fence so she can join me..... ;-)

Now...let me tell you why I do NOT like it...
This type of behavior leads to problems at times. One of those problems is Mila's anger/jealousy if I have another horse on a lead, out of the pen, away from all the others. She displays this anger/jealousy by continously pawing the gate to draw attention to herself. She is also very vocal and calls to me every time I look her way. IMO..this is NOT normal horse behavior. I would much rather she would act like the rest of the horses and go on about her business.
I do not like that she will be mean and flatten her ears to any other horses that approach the gate where she is pawing.
Some of you are sure to say..."Thats because she loves me"...and I will say it is because she did not get enough chances to interact with other horses when she was going through her developmental problems. She acts like a "spoiled child" and for the most part..she surely was for the first 8 or 9 months of her life...I carried her around for the first two weeks... I was her "protector", her leader...she shows me much respect, no doubt...

Just my 2 cents on "horses loving"... ;-)

[Hollis D. Gammon]

My take----

I don't want a horse that "loves me"

I want a horse that is a horse and "respects" me.

I too have over imprinted one foal, it was great until she became a mare, then the problems started.. Would leave her Dam and run to me from the time she was 3-4 weeks old. I loved it and would show her off to everyone, and everyone wanted her, but no this was my baby.

Nothing viscous just Jealousy, always in my space. Would get between you and any other horse in the pasture. Hard headed wanted her way, didn't understand why I would have to get tough on her.

After that I swore to never Imprint that much again.

The animal that you are consistent with and discipline immediately and make walk the line, a fair line, but one that they understand, the more they "appear" to love you. In my opinion they want to be with you because they know you will be "firm but fair"

They are just like children, you need to walk a fine line with them.

[Boyd R]

over imprinted she may be. though she does not spend more time with us than the other horses. She exhibits great heard dynamics in my opinion. But she has had free choice when we decide to let her have it. She gets away with nothing. Yes she gets in our space but knows when to vacate that space and at times I make her move for no more reason than for teaching. At times I do not let her approach until asked. the next three years will be quite an experience, one that I would not trade. This in one path that I am enjoying every step of the way.

[Terry Wallace]

They sure will steal your heart.....
Here is my "bratty child" from "then"....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/MilaoneyearcollageEMAILBB.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

My "bratty child" Now..... Whats NOT to love? She's pretty as a rose...with her little snow moustache!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/TerryandMila122005EMAIL.jpg

[ErinC]

I want her, she is awesome!

[reuben T]

i think a lot of people don't fully understand what real love is. A young couple think they're in love, get married, and then as many times as not, fall out of love. That's not real love, I'd call it infatuation.
I think horses grow to love their people, but the way a horse loves isn't nessarily like the way a human loves, so our interpretation of love may not fit.
True love is full of emotion, but then there can be a lot of the "love" type emotion without true love being present.
Looking at it from a technical viewpoint, true love is a balanced mix of mercy and justice. In raising children, if you get off balance, too much mercy without the justice, or too much justice without mercy, and you get a child who feels their parents don't love them.
Training horses is the same way. Have to have the right balance of mercy/justice applied in a way they understand, to be successful.
The old indian wild horse taming method was combining the two. They'd throw the horse, hold it down and just sit and stroke it all over gently untill it quit struggling, switch sides and keep at it till the other side was calm, then just get up and walk off. Horse would jump up, look around to find that man, and follow him ever after as his best friend. There were times when in the indian wars an indian was wounded, and his horse would lay down beside him so he could get on, then get up and carry him home. The white men would find the evidence of it but couldn't understand why a horse would do that. That's love showed by a horse for a human. (I got that info directly from a man who lived with the indians in Nevada for awile back in the 40's)

[El Indio Elegante]

nicely written Reuben T.

[GeorgeGuns]

One thing I like to brag on is how all my horses are quite fond of myself. Part of this IS disciplne. IMO horses respect a human that sets limits, and sticks to them, and training will go better than if this isn't done. Sure, when training time comes around, I get a lot of dirty looks, but I don't take it personally, so we get past it and the horse ends up going with the program (some more easily than others!). I have never had a horse that wouldn't approach me even after a less than ideal training session, and a couple that are even more adamant about getting my attentions as training goes on. I don't put up with BS from them, and they think that's just cool. Being alpha is tricky, no doubt, but consider that a really good and consistent alpha horse gets a LOT more respect, and some may call this 'love'.
Training happens every time we spend even a few moments with our horses. If its just a good scratch and rub session then that reinforces the trust and good feeling between us, and that to a degree is training.

I'm curious about something.
Alot of people post about how much their horse loves them and
vice-versa.
I wonder how many who have horses like that actually train them? Training involves discipline. A whip used in the roundpen or whatever.
Does discipline effect the horses feelings?
I know you can train a dog, and if he loves you then he loves you regardless of what you do. Are horses like that?

I hope I'm making sense. It's irrelevant, but I am curious.

I doubt that horses love humans as dogs do, simply because horses are not dogs, but I do know my horses love me, and I can tell the difference between them. They don't all love me the same or love my husband the same.

Tilly: Tilly has an attitude toward me like, "That's all right, dear. I know you don't know any better. Sigh." She is always happy to see me, follows me around, and frequently "hugs" me with her neck, but I get the feeling she thinks I am her rather dull-witted foal. She loves me and all that, but she despairs of my ever having much of a future with horses. She has her opinions and I am expected to listen to her and learn. Of course, she is 29 years old and grandmother always knows best.

Rusty: Rusty is actually Mike's horse, but I also have a lot to do with him of course. I groom him and clean up his paddock when Mike isn't there, and handle him a lot. He's a gentle giant, and like Tilly, he's "been there, done that." The difference is, he genuinely loves people -- all people. He especially loves children and seeks them out to give them rides. He'll actually run over to the mounting block and wait for a child to be put up on him. He just turned 30 and has been a beginners' horse for most of his life and he loves the job. If Tilly is grandma, Rusty is the grandpa we all want -- he spoils Mike and he spoils me with his calm, sensible kindness and lots of "come here and get a kiss," attitude. Love me? Love Mike? He's never met a person he doesn't love.

Jubilee: Until the past year, Jubilee was a broodmare in a large herd. She was bred over and over and had limited contact with people. She has never bonded with anyone before Mike and I started spending a lot of time with her. Her owner doesn't really have time for her, so Mike and I made it our business, because she was pregnant with my foal, to get to know her. She has gentled down a lot and she's happy to come to me and to Mike now, but I can't say she actually LOVES us. Her attitude seems to be, "Got a carrot? No? Then what good are you?" I have been working with her, getting her back into condition to ride again, but she seems distant and "switched off" most of the time. Now that she has Jazz, her foal, she's a lot more interested in life than she used to be -- but toward people, she just doesn't care very much. She is cooperative and willing -- just not affectionate.

Jazz: Now, Jazz is new. He's about a month and a half old now and everything is an adventure and a wonderful discovery to him -- especially people. If he were a human child, he'd be asking "why" every few seconds and driving his parents nuts. He loves being trained by Brigid, he loves being handled by me and by Mike, he loves having his withers scratched -- he just LOVES. Actually, he's a lot like Rusty in that way. But whether or not he loves ME as opposed to somebody else, I don't really know. When he's a little older, I'm sure he'll develop his preferences, too.

I don't know if horses actually love people or it's just one of those anthropomorphisms we inflict upon our animals -- but they SEEM to each love in different ways and some, like Jubilee, may never love humans at all. When Rusty screams for me as I start up to his paddock, and Tilly is there to eagerly greet me to check me over like she wants to make sure I'm healthy (like grandmother feeling your forehead for fever,) and when Jazz rushes to the gate and almost falls over himself trying to get to me for a withers scratch (while Jubilee, his mom, comes over more sedately and holds her nose out for a scratch,) it's hard to argue they don't feel SOMETHING positive for their humans.

Rita

[cowboy ed]

i think horses love the feed bucket, and human beans just happen to be the one who brings it.

the worst problems i have with training horses are the horses that have had too much touchy, feely, horse hugging stuff. :D

[Cindy]

Cowby Ed, Human beans? :shock: :lol:

[finolover]

i'm not a horse hugger but after two years with quito and my others...i have learned to be kinder to all animals..........strange

[Jasfino]

I know Jasper has bonded with me with an affection that I dont see from the other herd members. Last fall we were painting the barn and mom and I were having this same discussion about whether or not they "loved us" as much as we did them. I put down my paint brush and told her to watch and see Jaspers reaction to a little set up. I went out into the field near where all the horses were grazing but far enough not to put myself in any danger of running hooves. I was walking toward the group when I suddenly fell over and stayed down on the ground. Who do you think stopped grazing and came over to check out the situation. Within a few seconds, Jaspers head was up and he was on his way to find out just what had happened to me. None of the others even cared. ;-) When he got to me he nuzzled my head as if to say.. get up.

Terry - GREAT PICS!

The horse we imprinted too much on now is a pain in the --- ... shes nice and all but when you need your space shes always up on you nibbling you and walking around you, shes the best but its bothering when your out on the pasture trying to do something with another horse! but i still love her 8-)

[Ginger]

i think a lot of people don't fully understand what real love is. A young couple think they're in love, get married, and then as many times as not, fall out of love. That's not real love, I'd call it infatuation.

I tend to agree with most of that. I don't know whether or not you can fall in or out of love, or if it's some pre-existing, mind-devouring, parasitic, psychological, physically-manifesting illness.

I think horses grow to love their people, but the way a horse loves isn't nessarily like the way a human loves, so our interpretation of love may not fit.

I think of love tautologically, but in the same token, by your definition of love, there are people incapable of loving (animals, too). I also agree with that.

To add my own perspective, love is real for animals, but for animals capable of higher reasoning- which humans allegedly are- it's illusory. I think love, for humans, IS infatuation, obsession, perhaps, and likely a degree of lust when involving lovERS.

I should hope pasos and other horses are less like humans- I'm not fond of many humans the way I am horses. As far as my familial equine unit goes, the illusory love my horses give me is rewarding, validating, and psychologically fortifying, even if it's only for food and equissage, and vanishes upon presentation of tack or a flight reflex trigger.

[Abejita]

Jas ..but is that love or just the usual gelding..curious curious curious..In one field here I have 3 geldings and a mare..they all come running in at feeding time..but one gelding is always in your way ..in your face..even when its not feeding time (and they know..they dont come rushing over) He is just a typical Goober..always wanting to be 'helping' ..he does seek out humans..but I dont think its love..he just wants attention..

[halfmoonfino]

Pitty is my best friend. We do everything together around the barn. He comes when I call him, follows me anywhere, loves to mutual groom, etc...but he is still an inherently dominant horse. I have to be on my toes all the time with him. He gets cranky when I'm not in control. By control I don't mean the use of whips or spurs. I mean being mentally and emotionally grounded and able to direct him, even from afar. IF I'm scattered or give into him too much, he'll take charge. But he doesn't like doing that.

I think Pasos, maybe moreso than other horses, seem to be more emotionally and spiritually connected to their owners. It's as if they understand human language and reciprocate feelings. I believe that Pitty does have a lot of understanding when it comes to me. We have a really special relationship, which is usually immediately obvious to people we meet. He's so much more than my horse; he's a soulmate, and he knows it. In everyone's life there is a horse who is more speial than all the rest; who steals your heart completely and you know that no other horse, no matter how great, will equal him. I was blessed enough to have that horse as my first and only.

[PattiB]

Gracie was an orphan and would rather be with humans than horses. Ask Rhonda how bad she can be! She is wonderful to ride and when she is getting attention but she will paw and call if you ignore her. She was not "babied" as a foal. After the first three days of bottle feeding she was put on a bucket and an old mare that allowed her to"nurse" was put with her. We made a decision to not interact with her but made her stay with the other horses. She tolerated the other horses but as soon as a human was in sight she left the herd and came to people. After we bred her she became dominate in the herd and would back up kicking with both back legs to the former "boss". Ever since no one messes with her. I could have sold her plenty of times just because of her "loving" personality.

[Terri]

hmmm, interesting.
I think we might all have a slightly different definition of love. To me true love would mean to sacrificially want the highest good for the object of our love. Are horses capable of that? no, I don't think so. Not all humans are capable of it. Can horses feel affection or dependence on their human. I think so. When Mico was starting to colic the other day the first sign was that he walked over to me and put his head on my shoulder like he was asking for help. But I also suspect that if I was hit by a bus tomorrow, my horses' line of reasoning would be something like: "hmmmm, hit by a bus??? really??? oh that is to bad, .... wonder who will bring supper tonight". But they do enjoy interacting with me and obviously recognize my voice over others and are more likely to come to me rather than someone else.
Do I love my horses, you bet! Who stayed up all night cause Mico had a belly ache?

[Terri]

Oh, and Mico is also 2X Hilaches. Don't know if all this hype about this Brillant stallion is true or not, but I do know that Mico only lacks the proper vocal cords in order to talk. I am quite sure I dont' want to hear what he has to say however. It would likely be just a list of complaints about the amount of food and treats he is not getting and the quality of proper horse reverence he should recieve from me and the other horses.

[Abejita]

"hmmmm, hit by a bus??? really??? oh that is to bad, .... wonder who will bring supper tonight".

EXACTLY :lol:

Just like you said..they do like interacting with us ..or certain people and not others for whatever reason..and some just tolerate us humans.

[Jasfino]

I think horses feel and show love. I know they mourn the loss of their herd mates. My gelding mourned a long time after we got him over the seperation from his mother. The other gelding mourned the loss of Heaven Sent after she died. While she was colicing he would stand at the fence and watch us walk her not even grazing with the other herd. After she was gone, he wasnt his usual self for a long time. I believe in my heart they truly feel love. If you are really in tune with your horse, you can see many things and understand many things that others would miss. Saying that, I believe horses are like humans in the fact that some are not emotional and affectionate and others are. It all depends on the horse.

[Mellifluous]

Let me tell you how Mila is now, at age 3-1/2...
She will RUN to me, from out of the herd...if I call her from the pasture...
This is VERY IMPRESSIVE indeed to people who have never observed the behavior of an over-imprinted horse...makes me look like the "Horse Whisperer of the Century", trainer extrodinair!! .... oh yes, very impressive...
If I am out fixing fence, or picking up the neighbor's trash that blows over to my property...guess who is by my side every minute....yep, Mila.
If I open the front door, guess who will neigh a greeting FIRST and loudest...Mila of course.
Which horse on the place is the easiest to do vet work, trimming, give shots,or anything else...Mila.
What horse can I take out of the pasture or pen, with nothing on her, completely loose... and let follow me around the yard, never ever offering to leave...you already know!
If I ride down and out the driveway...even though the rest of the herd is basically ignoring me...guess who is running down the fence line "crying" about it....Miss Mila. Guess who is "threatening" to try and jump over the fence so she can join me..... ;-)

Now...let me tell you why I do NOT like it...
This type of behavior leads to problems at times. One of those problems is Mila's anger/jealousy if I have another horse on a lead, out of the pen, away from all the others. She displays this anger/jealousy by continously pawing the gate to draw attention to herself. She is also very vocal and calls to me every time I look her way. IMO..this is NOT normal horse behavior. I would much rather she would act like the rest of the horses and go on about her business.
I do not like that she will be mean and flatten her ears to any other horses that approach the gate where she is pawing.
Some of you are sure to say..."Thats because she loves me"...and I will say it is because she did not get enough chances to interact with other horses when she was going through her developmental problems. She acts like a "spoiled child" and for the most part..she surely was for the first 8 or 9 months of her life...I carried her around for the first two weeks... I was her "protector", her leader...she shows me much respect, no doubt...

Just my 2 cents on "horses loving"... ;-)

I am not sure that "over-imprinting" as a foal is always the cause of this behavior. Phoebe acts JUST like that and she was left to her own devices in a pasture with a herd for the first 1.5 years of her life. No real people contact for Phoebe until I got her. She was very immature acting when I got her and she immediatly bonded herself to my old mare, Lexi. I spent the first few months I had her getting her used to me and touching her. I tried not to give her any "bad" experiences with a human.

I don't know what would explain her acting bratty unless I "over imprinted" her when I got her. She has a lot of Hilaches too.

I am sure that other folks who are experiencing her personality would point a finger right at me for her bratty behavior. ;-) Darn touchy feely horsey crap. And to think that Phoebe is a doll compared to SPIRIT...ACK, he is the BRAT prince and he was not imprinted and HATED me until he was weaned and I bribed him with Little Debbie's Oatmeal Cream pies.

I don't know how anyone can doubt that horses feel something positive for us humans. If they did not, they are big and strong enough to take us apart and then kick the pieces into the next pasture. Horses must have SOME positive emotion toward humans or anyone who had to deal with them would be dead now.

Whether that feeling is love or some other emotion is hard to tell, but at least most horses don't play soccer with their owners' heads.

As for using negative reinforcement, I don't, Jazz's trainer doesn't (if she did, she wouldn't be Jazz's trainer,) and my husband doesn't. Consequently, we have well-behaved, affectionate horses that fear nothing and enjoy our company. Jubilee is even coming around and becoming more affectionate and more willing.

Isn't that what we want of our horses?

Jazz is an in-your-face cutey with personality plus, and he'd sit on my lap if I let him. That's how I like my horses. Instead of getting all negative mindset with him when he does something I'd rather he didn't repeat, I distract him and get him to do something I do want. I don't need to be negative with him, he doesn't need to learn a lot of bad behaviors without being told they're not what I want, but he also doesn't have to be punished when he does something undesirable.

Our trainer, Brigid Wasson, is the best on the West Coast, in my opinion, so I'm fortunate to have her. She is a clicker trainer and also uses some "natural horsemanship" methods (no particular trainer's method -- her own combination of workable methods) and "least resistence training." She works with all our horses, but she is Jazz's official trainer. She will also be showing Jazz when he's older. Brigid is also our riding instructor and our farrier.

Rita