Oh My!!!

[CarolU]

I want to know WHO has been over here talking to Bruiser???? Telling him that these are GAMES, telling him it's supposed to be FUN!!! Huh??? Who put that crap in his head?
:evil:
Doing anything with him is a royal pain in the ***!!! He's always biting at the rope, putting it in his mouth, shaking it and hitting himself in the head with it...no big deal that! I figure he'll teach himself not to do it eventually (hasn't happened yet!). He knows the Friendly, Yo-Yo, Porcupine, and Driving Games and we worked on Circling a little bit, just to keep things interesting. He gets bored easily, so today I thought I'd up the Friendly game and introduce the plastic bag on the stick. He's watching it as I rattle it around a little, tieing it into a smaller bag. I put it on the ground in front of him and let him look at it. Maybe five seconds elapse before he walks up to it and starts to sniff, sniff...hmm, taste! NO! :shock: I move the bag a foot away and stop it on the ground again. "That's interesting." his look says. He steps up to it and tries to bite it again. I move it again and we repeat again, but then he charges off after it. :shock: The next thing I know he's chasing the bag, biting and pawing and striking at it. He LOVES THIS GAME!!!! He's bucking and kicking up his heels and SOOOO happy we're playing something FUN.
:-?
OH Lordy! I get him to stop and we start over trying to touch him with the bag. All he wants to do is eat it. And there we go again, circling with him chasing the bag and just having a riot trying to bite and strike it. I'm like, "Bruiser, this is supposed to be the "FRIENDLY game", not the Bite it/Kill it game!?" Sooooo, I get him to stop again and start shaking the bag around, getting it to rattle. When I move it up high, up UP he goes, rearing and striking at the bag !!! :shock: Holy Double XXX!!! :shock: And away we go a third time, in the Biting/Striking game. And he loves every second of it, kicking up his heels, having a ball.

OH MY. What a monster.

I already know...no video...shoot me! I'll try to set it up tomorrow, it's too funny not to capture.

[JennLM]

LOLOL Sounds fun...

What you are doing is how I get these guys to love anything I do to them. I show it to them and retreat, they follow, I retreat again until they desperately HAVE to touch what I have.

Sounds like Bruiser is a smart cookie.

Reverse psychology can backfire hehe

[CarolU]

Bruiser is 200% play drive.

[ErinC]

OOOOO Pillo was the same way!
till I gelded him!
now he is all business. and very quick to learn and try.

I love a horse like that , but it does get frustrating.
I feel your pain/excitement.

[Cindy]

Biting and striking are really kind of bad things for a horse to do when in hand. Doesn't matter if you are calling it a game or not. What you are doing is teaching him behaviors that are going to make him a dangerous horse.

[Linda Y]

I agree Cindy. As fun and funny as he is now to watch, he is going to be a dangerous horse if he doesn't learn to control those urges when he is on a lead. I KNOW this for a fact! I had a Paint gelding JUST like Bruiser. Way too smart, easily bored, pushy and bold. He mowed me down like I wasn't even there one day. Had no respect for humans, no matter what I did. Sent him to 2 different trainers and he was still dangerous. Not mean, but just too playful and too alpha. I always said he needed a job, something that was mentally and physically challenging. If we had still been in Florida I would have given him to the lady that has the trick horses. He taught himself to pull off saddle blankets that you put on him, bowing and twirling a rope.
Maybe Bruiser needs challenges like that.
By the way, I gave the Paint away. He hurt me one time too many.

[Pasofinoguy]

Even the rope in his mouth isnt a good idea. If i had a nickel for every time i was nipped by a colt id have a Sh!t load of nickels.

[Fuego]

Good Lord!!! Some of you folks need to unwad your panties...

Where in Carol's post did she say or even IMPLY she was trying to teach this behavior?
What I read was Bruiser's unusual reaction to being de-sensitized to what is typically a scary object to a horse initially.

Did ya'll miss the point that that she repeatedly stopped and started over. Even though she got the same response from the horse.

I believe Carol was just sharing an unusual and funny experience with a young horse.
She wasn't offering training tips on how to train a gaurd/attack horse.

[Barbwire]

http://homepage.mac.com/oatmeal/MAF/maxes/applause.gif

[CarolU]

I believe Carol was just sharing an unusual and funny experience with a young horse.
She wasn't offering training tips on how to train a gaurd/attack horse.

Thank you Mitch...Good heavens everyone, lighten UP!!! :idea: I was just sharing a day in the life of this very interesting and atypical youngster. I posted this for its HUMOR value, not to get attacked. I should have realized I was taking a chance, opening up the hellgates of critisism. Thanks guys. I'll know better then to post any more of his interesting days.

Those who are interested in following his progress, please PM me and I'll just send it that way.

[CarolU]

PS..if you knew anything about Parelli, before you jumped all over me, you'd know by this:
He knows the Friendly, Yo-Yo, Porcupine, and Driving Games
that he already knows how to get haltered, tied, pick up all four feet, back away when told, come when told, move from pressure, move his rear-end and front end when told.

To be honest...I think that's pretty DARNED GOOD for a 9-month-old colt!

[Cindy]

For one thing, allowing the horse to exibit this behavior IS teaching the behavior. And I don't really geve a darn what Parelli says. A horse should NOT bite at ANYTHING when being handled. The leadrope could one day be a childs hand. And a horse should NEVER strike anywhere near a person. Striking is an offensive behavior and should NEVER be allowed. This is not fun and games and if you do not care to take the advice of people who know and have seen the results of such handling of young horses then that is your horse's problem. But it has been given nonetheless. I have no doubt that you, Carol, and you, Fuego, would not hold back if you saw something that you knew to be harmful to either human or horse being said on here. You would say something. Well, something has been said and just because it is not either of you who said it does not mean that it should not have been said. Take it or leave it. I do not care. But the fact is that it needed to be said and now it has. So get mad and defensive all you want. That does not help the horse at all. But so be it.

[CarolU]

Take a red Cindy. He's playing with his lead rope and you have him attacking children??? Don't you think you're assuming a lot there?

There is a reason it is called the "Friendly" game, so the horse learns you are trustworthy. Yes, I could beat him and make him as fearful as 90% of horses are trained to be. But I choose not to. He has a big play drive. He WANTS to do things, he wants to learn, he wants interaction. He has a big curiosity. So, I use that to help train him. The whole point in the exercise was to make sure he wasn't afraid of the plastic bag. Mission accomplished. Move on.

You saw Rosie. She was trained the same way. Did she attack you? I have another BIG colt here, trained the same way. He's going under saddle this year. He's already been wrapped in a tarp. What kind of trail horse do you think he'll be with this beginning.

You do things your way...I do them mine/Parelli's way. You're assuming he'll be a problem horse. Well, if he turns out that way you can say, "I told you so"....but right now, I'll let him play and learn not to be afraid and to trust.

[Abejita]

isnt it about time for Bruiser's gonad-ectomy too?

[KAB]

Carol I pm'ed you. Let me know if you didn't get it.I'm not sure my pm's go through sometimes..........

[CarolU]

isnt it about time for Bruiser's gonad-ectomy too?

LOL...I think they KNOW that and are hiding! LOL I check him weekly (one of the advantages of having a FRIENDLY colt) and no dinglebobs. :( I've scheduled the vet for March, so they'd better make a showing here soon!!!

[Cindy]

Take a red Cindy. He's playing with his lead rope and you have him attacking children??? Don't you think you're assuming a lot there?



No, Carol, I am not assuming anything. The playing that horses do as horses can be very dangerous to people. Biting is biting and horses do not diferentiate between biting a lead rope and biting the hand that is holding the lead rope. This is pretty much horse training 101.

And, yes, I saw Rosie and no, she did not attack me. And that is all I will say on Rosie. Rosie is not Bruiser. Rosie was also not biting the lead rope and was not striking. She did however buck.

As I said before, Carol, if you do not want to take the advice of others who have learned from the horses than DON'T. I don't care. I just hope you geld him soon.

And why do you ASSUME that teaching a horse to respect a human involves beating the horse. Noone told you to beat your horse and just because people are not playing games with their horses does not mean that they are by default beating them. Training is not a game.

[Linda Y]

Sorry if you thought my panties were waddie! :lol:
I was just relaying the experience I had with my colt that was so much like Bruiser. I know Carol is a good trainer who is willing to spend more time with her colt than I was willing to spend on mine. And not all horses like this will turn out to be child-eating monsters. My old gelding, Desi, was another of those 'wild boys', and 25 years later I still have the old cuss. He was every bit as much a juvenile delinquent as Bruiser, too.

[CarolU]

Well Cindy, Bruiser is not my first horse, nor my first dominant colt. He will fly back 12 feet backwards when I wiggle my finger. He can't bite anybody when he's 12 feet away. He moves his rear end when I look at his hip. He can't kick anyone when his butt is behind him. He accepts who his 'boss' is...he learned it when he was 3 hours old.

Believe it or not Cindy, I DO know what I'm doing. If you do it better, then fine, post your methods out here for everyone else to critisize. Which, I notice you don't.

He was playing with a plastic bag. I guess you'd shoot him for that.

Why don't we just leave it that you train your way and I train my way. I didn't post the story and ask for training advise from you...so please keep it to yourself. I posted a humorous story so those who enjoy Bruiser would enjoy him again. Now, we have to do that in a PM fan club.

[Fuego]

Perhaps you should read the original post again Cindy.

Carol's intent was to de-sensitize this colt to a noisy plastic bag. The typical response would be extreme wariness if not fear, when initially introduced.
However this colt had an unexpected response. He responded like a kitten going after a toy on a string..... the colt thought it was just a game.

Carol said, she STOPPED him, and started over. Same response, so she STOPPED him again. She tried a different approach, with the bag raised high, but still got the same reaction. So she STOPPED him again.

No where does she say she was encouraging the bahavior. And no where did she indicate she was going to continue.

She was humorously sharing a failed attempt at a legitimate de-sensitizing technique, because of a very atypical inititial response from a young horse. I found the horse's reaction amusing. If Carol turned this into a 'game' to play with the horse, I'd be concerned. But I saw nothing in her post to ASSUME that was her intentions.

Are we to assume that every horse you touch immediately responds correctly and flawlessly to your every whim? You have a great reputation as a trainer, but DANG, you must be the best there ever was......

[Cindy]

Which, I notice you don't

OK, since when?

Nevermind, you are the training God and noone can compare to the Parelli method. Please forgive me for even opening my mouth as all that I have to say is moot. Fuego, I did read the initial post and saw in there exactly what I responded to. I bow to the wisdom of those who know better than I. Go with God.

[CarolU]

Which, I notice you don't

OK, since when?



Did I miss all your posts about how you train horses and desensitize them? I'm sorry if you posted it and I missed it. Just post the link here and I'll read it and shoot holes in how you do it. How's that?

[Cindy]

http://americanpasofinos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11818

[cowboy ed]

hmmm, i've seen some older horses that were trained with some of those games. they kind of acted like you described bruiser. not all of them, i've seen, but several.

so, carol, bruiser hasnt bitten you, has he? and if he did, how would you correct him? just curious. :smile:

[CarolU]

Bruiser has bitten at pant legs and coat tails...and he's instantly backed away 'out of range' and made to stand there. I make him stand away for 20-30 seconds. That time will grow as he gets older. He is like most colts and mouthy...I deal with it by giving him something else to mouth...like the lead rope, a chew ball, or a dog chew toy. He'll outgrow most mouthiness. Any agressiveness is dealt with immediately by backing him away. He is a very dominant personality. He gotten better being kept with Zar. He'll be out with Diablo as soon as he's cut. Remember that his dam didn't disciplin him at all....ever.

You know, all he was doing was chasing and playing with a plastic bag!!! He did the same thing with the big ball! He'll probably be a natural at soccer...and many other things. He likes to learn.

[DebbieS]

Last summer, I put up plastic bags around the horses' water trough, so Listo could get de-sensitized before a parade (those little kids with plastic bags are pretty scary standing along a parade route). Anyway, Chex - our 3 y/o, took all the bags down and 'killed' them. It was pretty funny.... He also took the farrier's tools (and ours) and walked off with them. Very curious and smart, just like Bruiser.

Thanks for the cute story, Carol.

[Carol Nelson]

Aw, gee, Carol...please don't stop posting updates on how Bruiser is doing...I think a lot of us will be disappointed. I sure don't have the time to email you to get new antidotes...besides, isn't this forum just for that...sharing stories of our horses??? Most of us have "adopted" Bruiser and love to hear the tales and see the pics and videos you post.
I guess I never gave one thought to whether Carol was TRAINING him well in the foretomentioned post...I simply read it for the humor. And it was HUMOROUS...I could almost see the action as it happened. :smile:

You know, I just hired a John Lyons trainer to work out of my place here. She's proving that she's gonna be turning out some pretty good trail horses. Parelli or Lyons or Whitesell or Figueroa...doesn't it all boil down to a horse trained WELL to do what you want it to do, and I might add here too, trained that way with gentle firmness and patience and repetition?

[lalecl]

ALL of our animals have done something at one time or another funny as our kids have doesn't mean they are not corrected when it is needed . Just sharing a funny moment doesn't mean this is allowed behavior.


All kids grow and learn :)

[Jasfino]

One word will make all the difference...geld... ;-)

Before Charlie was gelded, he acted much like Bruiser. We raised Charlie after his mother died when he was just a few weeks old. He couldnt focus his attention for very long on anything, and was very mouthy. All that changed after he was gelded.. and within a few weeks... he was a different boy.

[Laura S]

Wwhhhoooooee NELLY! Rein in those egos! :roll:

[paintedhorizon]

Carol, that is so freaking hilarious!!! Please do video, I'd love to see it!

[jodiTowne]

I saw it for its humor...great story and keep the updates coming!

[Moniece Dickerson]

Carol,please don't stop posting about Bruiser!If you remember I got jumped on by a lady when Rosa and I had our first fight and I posted about it.But I didn't stop posting about her.People are always going to think they need to save you.If they neglect to tell you what they would have done differently their post is useless to you so blow it off,if they do tell you what they would do differently consider the source and go from there.Carol,I learn alot about people and training underplaying what I know.I mean really,you and Terry and some of the others have known me for eight years on the BBs and I was with pasos before getting on the computer,surely you all that have known me for so long are smart enough to know I underplay what I know by ALOT.Like I said when people think they need to save you just consider the source and go from there but don't stop posting about Bruiser,so many of us adore him and look forward to the updates and posts about him.Your friend,Moniece

[CarolU]

Since I've had to go into this several times now in PMs and e-mails, I thought I should explain a little bit here.

The whole point of this exercise is to desensitize and build on a horse's curiosity to train with. Punishing him for demonstrating the behavior I was after (if a little more exuberant than hoped for...LOL) would have been counter-productive. If I were using something else, like a rag, I would have let Bruiser taste the item, but I really don't want him eating plastic bags. I realize that not everyone knows or understands Parelli's methods, but remember that he has trained hundreds of horses, and his programs have now been used to train thousands.

I full well realize what can happen with spoiled horses. The plastic bag was part of desensitization trainig. What I didn't post (didn't know I needed to) is that Bruiser is handled twice a day (at least), and he's loose while his coral is cleaned and during feeding time. During these times he is forced to behave around people, move his hips away, and back out our space. This has worked very well and he has not acted aggressive to people in months. He doesn't kick at people anymore (if you recall, he was very bad as young colt) and his bites are after cookies and playing and he IS corrected for it.

Anyone who wants to learn how to handle biting horses, here is an article on correcting it.

http://www.parelli.com/info_page.php?page=article&lit_num=15&title=My%20Horse%20Bites&t=lit

[TrueStepPaso]

Carol, I think Cindy was just concerned about the story, and gave you her insight...but, it seems that it came across as criticism...??

I was actually thinking to myself while reading the story that something like that should be very carefully dealt with, seeing as it could lead to extremely dangerous behavior....however, I know you are quite aware of that, so I'm sure its under control.

I was wondering as I was reading, because I started using the Parelli methods 4.5 yrs ago for my Morgan that QUITE dangerous, and it worked wonderfully, what do you do when you say "I stopped him"..? Do you back him sharply...OR, just wiggle the finger 1st, then proceed quickly to the other stages of pressure, OR do you just ask him to stand/stop? I am curious, because I was trying to picture what I would do.......for the rearing/striking, do you step to his sidewith pressure on the lead to bring him down quickly?

Thanks! :D

[CarolU]

Abbey..you mirror, and react with as much force as necessary to stop the behavior. He is just learning the rest of the games (only originally taught Friendly, Yo-Yo and Driving), so his stop on this circle was a pop of the rope. Which is the same thing I did to bring his rear down. Don't forget that we weren't playing the Circling Game, which he's just learning.

Many people don't know the Parelli games, which is why I put the explanation above that I did.

Before we were done he stood for the bag to be rattled all over him, over his head, under his belly and around his legs, on both sides. He kept trying to eat it, but I am a little quicker then him.

[TrueStepPaso]

Oh, that's good that he stood for all that. For your Circling, do you pass the rope behind you, or just "pivot" on the spot...? I know the name of that game is to move HIS feet as much as possible while stabilizing/keeping still your own...I hope I got the game right, I forget some of the exact names for the games...


Since he is young, do you give him more time to "process" (puts head low, licks, chews, stays still/relaxes) things before moving on to the next task?

[CarolU]

When first starting the circling, I shorten the rope to a few feet and lead and ask to go forward. As soon as he's moving forward, I relax and let him make the mistake of stopping, then send and ask again and again until he keeps going. As he gets better at it I lengthen the rope. He's circling at a walk with about 4 feet of rope right without stopping. And I'm pivoting with him until he knows it well. For the stop, you lean down the rope and LOOK hard at Zone 4 to move it around and pull his head in. It doesn't take long and a tilted head at Zone 4 will bring them in.

But, initially just working with keeping him going and getting the idea of being sent and circling. Once he's out to the 12 foot and sending and circling ok, then I start to stand and will let him go behind. My experience is that they get a little confused here. If they come in, don't correct them, just send them again. There is a hip-shift you can do that they will interpret as a 'don't come in' sign, but that is quit a ways down the road.

When they are young I am not looking for gait or numbers of circles. You don't want to stress young legs. Just teaching them to send, allow, and return, really. That is all I'll do with this game until he's two.

Once he knows the send and return with tilted head to zone 4, he'll be ready for the Squeeze Game.

To keep his life interesting, I'm also working him with the pedestal and am trying to change the mouthing behavior to fetching and carrying rags. He hasn't caught on yet, but he does enjoy the interaction. We did the umbrella and big ball last fall. When Rosie was a yearling, once she learned she got cookies for getting on the pedestal, I would find her on it everytime I went to work another horse. This translated great for trailer loading and bridge crossing. LOL

[TrueStepPaso]

My experience is that they get a little confused here.



Right. I think its goes back to their instincts...follow the alpha mare to join up. So when they are behind you, they think, "Follow." It just comes natural to them..... :?:

That's a good idea for the "letting him make a mistake", and then keep sending him out until he learns to STAY out.....sending only when he stops/slows...instead of constantly clucking until they tune you out. :roll:

When they are young I am not looking for gait or numbers of circles.

Plus it's good to not get into that habit for ANY horse....it's not lungeing, its working the mind for a minute or two.

It's so true about the look at that hip....once you lock in that disengage cue, they pick up on the tiniest look/head tilt.. :roll:

[CarolU]

Excellent Abbey. You're a quick study! Continued clicking and motioning is like just like nagging. Tell the horse what you want and let him do it. Let the horse LEARN. It is then their responsibility to do it UNTIL you tell them to do something different. :-)

What is different with a Bruiser...or a Buddy for that matter, is you need to keep it interesting for a horse with a big play drive. They learn quickly, but they bore easily too. If you don't keep it challenging, they'll add the challenge! LOL I think you would kill one of these horses lunging it. Luckily their attention span increases with age!!!

I wish you lived closer. I think you'd enjoy our group that works together.

[SandyMM]

When they are young I am not looking for gait
I am always looking for, and at, gait... especially in youngsters.

[CarolU]

That's fine Sandy...and I would too if I were selling or buying a youngster here. But I'm not, I'm training the Circling Game, so all I'm interested in initially is that the colt learns the send, circle, and come in cues. It's a lot easier to train at a walk. I'd rather not stress their legs at all (gait or trot) until they're two or older.

I hope that clarifies it.

[nmcreel]

Carol, Thanks for posting the Parelli link on biting. It's been useful to me as my colt has a tendency to bite. I've been using distraction by tapping his leg with my foot, but increasing the space between you is much more powerful.

Still waiting for the video....

Nancy Creel and Hijo aka "Poker Joe"

[TrueStepPaso]

Thanks, Carol! ;-)

I wish there was ANY kind of group that did fun stuff like that around here...because its really easy to run out of ideas to keep the horses interested, at least it is for me sometimes. But if other ppl were there to motivate (me), then it keeps the flow going.

So true about letting them learn on their own...I'm huge on making the horse pay attention to it's feet. Instead of constantly directing, and steering the horse...I'll actually bring the horse to more challenging terrain, and set the horse up to either pick up it's feet/move around stuff/jump things...OR, trip. No touching the reins, just letting them think it through. I'm still working on my Paso... :roll:

[CarolU]

Abbey, our Parelli group started with just a few Paso Fino owners, but once we contacted an instructor in Utah (Margaret France), she referred many people in our area to our group. She lives up in Heber, so we have a clinic once a month and she drives down and spends the night. She is does group and individual lessons and assessments over the weekend. We pay by the hour and split her millage (lots cheaper then all of us hauling up to Heber). I usually have her stop here on her way, so don't have to haul out to Judi's. But, we a lot of us get together weekly and work horses and do a trail ride from Judi's.

You might check Parelli's site and find an instructor near you. Contact them and they usually know others in your area. You can set up a group, like ours. It really DOES help to have others near to encourage and help you. Very often others will see a mistake you are making that you are unaware of (like dropping a shoulder or getting stiff or being too intense sometimes). And the really nice part is you have a whole pool of people who LOVE horses and do things the same way you do to help.

I had taken both Zar and Rosie to Mile High to do Trail on (Rosie was still In-hand). I took them up to the arena to practice, and a good Parelli friend was there. I handed Zar to Nancy and she put her through all the obstacles the exact same way I would have. Can't beat that kind of help.

Good idea with the foot work. I do the same thing Circling, put stuff in the way. Funny how different horses deal with things. I love my Drama Queens, who have to *snort* at it and put on a BIG show for me. Too funny.

[TrueStepPaso]

That's true, I could contact an instructor in my area...I don't think there is one VERY close, but ya never know...it could have changed recently. Plus, I don't mind traveling for worthwhile things, so I'll have to look into it....

[ErinC]

well I think it would be great to have a play date once and awhile instead of just getting together to fly thru the trails.
this year I am not going to be able to do that as much.
I will be working at home in the field much much more.

With working the young horse I am going to take things slow and
work on lots of stuff with him.
Incendio sure could use the work too,
its so easy to fall into the "lets go for a ride, and just run the trails"
dont get me wrong I love to do that, but I think it is not the best thing to do.
so I think this years riding will be a whole NEW ball of wax.
for me anyway.

[CarolU]

Aren't you guys all close enough to "play" together? Erin, Terri, Abbey, Ruth...who else? That's a pretty good size group right there. See how much it would cost to have the instructor come to you. Take a day.

You know you can set up contests....like a row of cones and see who can get their horse to kick the soccer ball through it the fastest, or Yo-yo back through them. See who can get their horse to step on a Frisbee the soonest, or do a squeeze jump over a barrel...or...the list goes on.

[PasoVicki]

Don't stop posting the Bruiser stories and photos, Carol. Since I can't do video, I have to get by with the comical stories and still shots.

I'm going to have to talk you into putting out a DVD one of these days to entertain the dial-up users. ;-)

[TrueStepPaso]

Yup, and Kim too...we do have alot of ppl around here that we could get together, and I think its a great idea Erin! I have Level One & Two that we could all share....
It would be wicked fun to have an instructor come down and teach us to do funstuff with the horses.....lord knows I have to do more ground work with Poco this year. :roll:

[ErinC]

ya I think it would be fun, and we sure have a ton of kids too,
Terris place would be perfect.
=)

even if we could not find a parelli person to come and tell us what to do, we could all swap tapes around, and then just support each other.

its a thought.

E

[CarolU]

There you go!!! Get together, watch the Level 1 DVDs, then work on the lessons until you're ready to do your L1 assessments. THEN have the instructor come assess you all. And then get you started on your L2!!!

I wish I lived closer! I'd love to 'play' with all of you! It's fun.

[ErinC]

I use to have level one, I did it with my Arab for a long time, and went to a few cert. clinics ...
it is fun!
and it really does make for a great realationship on the ground and in the saddle.

I did sell my L1 to someone.

but I do remember most of the 7 games.
I use them on the ground with the boys from time to time.

but it wouldnot hurt to refresh and watch the DVD again.

[TrueStepPaso]

EXACTLY. I need to refresh MY memory. :roll:

Erin, I agree...it would so fun, and I bet the girls at Terri's would LOVE it! I know i really need motivation to do it with Poco, not because I don't want to, but the times that I get opportunities to be "with" the horse....I want to RIDE. :roll:

We could do it! We really could all get together at Terri's or something, and (after watching Level one) have one of us go through the booklets, and read off the steps/games, and then challenge them some more through an obstacle course....and then do the "test" at the end....and just keep adding different challenges....

BTW, does it matter that I have the "old" tapes, instead of the DVD's? :-?

[CarolU]

I have the old set, and bought the new set for a friend, so I've seen both. I think the new set is better for inexperienced horsepeople who are just learning. It takes a lot more time, like a home-study course and actually shows different problems with different horses, and a couple assessments.

I think you all would be bored out of your gourd with it. I recommend it for new owners, but you guys are beyond most of it. You'll do fine with the original, just REMEMBER that your L1 does not need to be perfect to assess!!!!! If you get several steps on your sidepass, that is fine! You don't have to do 20 feet. They do NOT expect perfection at level 1, so don't kill yourselves over it and don't bore your horses to death with it.

Funny story on this...the friend who I assessed with for L1 and I moved on to L2 and the 22' rope. Her horse would ALWAYS stop after backing 12 feet. She couldn't figure out why...so I asked her how long she spent at Level 1...she spent FOUR YEARS there!!! So do NOT do that. Get through L1 in a month! The GOOD stuff starts with L2. And DO get the new L2, it is worth it (skip the Stephanie Burns stuff). Lots of horse psych there. Good stuff.

[Terri]

Oh, my, I can't leave you guys alone for a minute! So now we are holding Parelli clinics at MY house??? Oh good you guys can play games with all my barn rats and I can go running in the woods. :D

Oh, I suppose I can stick around sometimes. Will it help me teach Rio to self load? Rio prefers to run around in the woods too.

[SandyMM]

the times that I get opportunities to be "with" the horse....I want to RIDE.
And that's a problem? ;-) I always thought riding _was_ the reason to have horses - especially Pasos....

[CarolU]

Will it help me teach Rio to self load? Rio prefers to run around in the woods too.

ROFL...absolutely! You'll be able to load him while you sit on the fender! And you can run in the woods too. LOL

[ErinC]

And that's a problem?

no its not a problem , till we forget that there is so much more to do with the horse then to just get on and go.
having a balance of ground respect will even make for a better ride!
so why not have a partnership with your horse that makes owning a horse even more enjoyable?

[SandyMM]

so why not have a partnership with your horse that makes owning a horse even more enjoyable?
I don't disagree with owning an enjoyable horse - both on the ground and in the saddle. The highly marketed owner/horse training programs have certainly been a success from the commercial standpoint. As to whether they actually get more riders on their horses any sooner or safer - I'm not convinced.

[ErinC]

As to whether they actually get more riders on their horses any sooner or safer - I'm not convinced.


I agree with that!
FOR SURE.
but what we girls are looking for is the opposite. all our horses are great saddle horses that can just get better with some
ground work and bonding. ( besides my 3 yr old he is not under saddle yet )
we,, like Abbie said tend to just grab and ride as we do not have enough time to spend on the "little details"
I know that my 3 yr old and 7 yr old can benefit from playing some games.
It will build Muscle, trust, it will help us under saddle too, and I think it mentally will give them something fun to do besides always just being a trail horse.

I do understand what you are getting at, and I agree.

[CarolU]

I've seen it work with many people and many horses. I'm convinced. I've met so many people who bought horses later in life, who didn't have the luxury of growing up with them and learning from 'old timers' around them. The 'canned horsemanship' programs are really an economical way a beginner to learn, especially compared to regular trainers and lessons. You can always watch the tapes and read the books again and again. And the joy is you aren't just getting your horse trained, you are learning how to do it yourself.

I think it's like any other education program, you take and use as much as you want to. You can be happy once you have basic skills and become a fair horseman, or you can take it all the way to the top, where you are doing high school dressage, reining, and or tricks with your horses. That is entirely up to you.

The truth is, you will never know until you try it. And like any horsetraining, you actually have to go DO it. Can't just read and watch the videos and accomplish anything.

I think the greatest part about ALL the natural programs is that they have saved thousands of horses from old 'traditional' "breaking" and "showing him who's boss" kind of training. A lot less abuse and a lot happier and safer horses.

[CarolU]

I thought I'd tell you about just one...Neil Pye. He had never even riden a horse when he bought his first horse at 52. He saw Parelli in Austrailia, signed up for the Instructors course, and by age 55 is a five-star instructor and trains horses up through dressage and reining manuvers, rides without tack, and dances at liberty. Safely.

There are hundreds of people with this same story.

[TrueStepPaso]

Thats to funny about the woman who's horse would stop at 12 feet....exactly the same length of the L1 lead rope....smart horse. ;-)

Sandy...believe me, its no problem - I'm happy to clean their stalls! :lol: It just stinks, because between my two jobs, I don't have alot of time....so I ride. Which is great, but it doesn't leave alot of room for actual bonding like ground work does. I have it from my Morgan, but even she needs a refresher course...the little imp. Now, my Paso, we never did much groundwork, and it shows....WE definetely need it, because his little brain is about to melt. :roll:

Erin....I'm ALL for it. Just wish I had the updated L2 now....criminy.