Horse... It's what's for dinner.

[ASB.Immortality]

This maybe a repost but I can't say for sure. I just did a quick skim through and didn't see it on the topic lines:


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1587279,00.html

I do have to agree with him here.

[Mellifluous]

Good article!

I am glad to see that "the other side" is getting some attention.

[Minouri]

When I taught middle school we had a unit where we taught our students how to debate an issue.

One question I always posed was why is it ok to eat some animals and not others. At first the students always had strong convictions about which animals you eat and why.

Then I would ask if it's ok to kill that animal? And why killing and wasting is better than killing and using?

The first question so many people ask hunters is "Did you eat it?"...like killing any wild animal gets instant approval as long as you made it into a sandwich.

But we don't ask the same question of our Kill shelters. Wedon't want to eat their meat....but someone might. Why is that killing considered ok as long as you DON"T eat the meat.

If you really want to drive someone into a tizzy...ask they if they would save their child from starvation by eating their cats and dogs.

I used to teach English to people from all over the world. When I told them how angry people in the US would get just from the mere suggestion...they would tell me....that is because you have never seen a child die in a mother's arms from starvation. When starvation is real....pets are easy to eat.

[Terry Wallace]

Soooo..Anybody here ever seen the photos of the dogs for sale at far east markets for dinner? The first time I saw a photo of a "market dog"..and it was a little dog...maybe like a large Chiuahua...sitting on its CHEST, with its front legs tied up over its back, very much alive...

I think it was the cruelist thing I have ever seen a dog put through....

Rows of dogs, paws banded behind their backs, basically sitting on their front shoulders & chests, heads bent to one side or the other.... they HAD to have been whining and yipping.....it was totally sickening..to see that done to "man's best friend".............

I don't remember where that pic was from...maybe Taiwan? I am not sure...it was in National Geographic I think... :cry:

[pnalley]

I was born and raised with these "taboo's", and I'll die with them. The thought of eating a horse or a companon animal makes me sick to my stomach.

That said, I don't condem others for eating them providing the animal receives humane treatment being raised, trasported and slaughtered.

[CarolU]

As most of you know, the Mormon Church has missionaires all over the world. They convert all kinds of people, and those people MOVE here. This resulted in some unusual culture clashes...not the least of which were new laws again eating dogs and cats, and not slaughtering animals in your backyard for a luaus. We have people here now who DO eat just about anything, and were going to the pound to shop for dinner.

[Carol Nelson]

Just because people eat animals in other parts of the world, doesn't mean we have to condone it...or support it. They also sell their children into slavery and is that right?
Living with these beautiful animals, wrapping my arms around their necks and getting love back from them, having a scared gelding who was mistreated take a small step, then several more towards me asking not for treats but a simple pat...breathing their breaths into my nostrils, smelling their smells ...looking deep into their eyes and seeing a wisdom older than the centuries there...I'm sorry, but it moves me to do anything in the world that I can to protect them. I am the same way with my dogs and my cats...once an animal comes to me, it usually stays with me until it's death. I value life. I don't throw it away...in a throw away society.
We are stewards of the earth ...and all that is on it...
Even if we kill an animal for food...for we are carnivores by design...we should take the steps to make sure it dies an easy death...I remember how the Native Americans would spend the night before a big hunt praying for and praying to the bison they were going to kill the next day. The kill was swift, and the animal was used...even down to it's teeth and bone...and thanks was given for its gifts it brought to them.
I can't change what other societies do with their animals...but I don't need to support them by giving them mine...

Oh, and just a side note...I had a man email me a day or so ago, wanting to set up business with me. He bought and sold Paso Finos to Mexico and was looking for four Paso mares for between $2500 and $3500....he said he thought that we could set up business and I could make some money supplying him with horses.
Know what I told him...I said, "I'm sorry but I don't sell my horses to Mexico."
Not interested. I imagine that it was a scam but even if it was not...I wasn't interested in making any deals. I sent him to a breeder who does do that.

[Linda Y]

Maybe instead of eating the animals because the children are starving in their mothers arms, they should consider birth control!
I saw a photo the other day that said if the Chinese (I think it was...it was Aisan...) walked by you eight abreast in a line, the line would never end due to the rate of conception. Now, if that isn't a scary thought...

[britzlove]

Cruelty is not something that I'll ever teach my child is OK. I don't care if its cruelty against humans, or otherwise. It's just not my value.

This article has recieved a status because it was so contraversial and it was very inappropriate in my mind because of the disregard that school children read this, and it was written poorly in my opinion. Not enough research, and not the way the "other" side should portray it's position.

Cultural differences exist. OK, it's not legal in this country to break animals limbs and allow them to suffer for profit, and it really shouldn't be condoned in another country. You can eat whatever you want to eat...but I really don't think that teaching our children that cruelty is OK for any reason.

Now, I come out as for legislation to abolish commercial slaughter of horses for consumption. Still, I know that there are people in the US that are "food threatened" (what a crock o crude that term is), I mean they're hungry. Anyway, they do eat horses, sometimes even their personal horses. Why do I not care? Because its not commercial. It is different.

If I knew they were using humane methods to ship horsemeat overseas to those "food-threatened" people, like in Darfur and elsewhere, I would be all for it. That is not the case though.

While killing can be condoned (not in my house, not by my family) cruelty is a whole seperate issue.

What a day this is...sorry Lori...but I am glad people are discussing it.

[Thomasj]

i've always believed that imposing one's beliefs onto another is jus as wrong as cruelty.

that's what so many fail to understand. people are diff, people are gonna debate, try to impose, and people are going to fight. there's nothing anyone on eath can do to stop it. and the only ones we're responsible for are our children (until they reach the age of maturity).

but, the good thing about a debate (so long as the debaters ain't too obstinate ;) ) is that you can learn a lot about others and other cultures, grow in wisdom, experience something new.

and b4 ya'll even ask, i'm anti-slavery, anti-abortion, anti-cruelty to animals (excluding food use) {lil modification, those animals used for food shouldn't be tortured either}. i'm also wary of technology. and i'm understanding. what others do in their private home, whether it be good or bad, is none of my affair, so therefore, i must not intervene. example, if 2 parents repeated abuse their child, i wouldn't beable to intervene. now, don't get me wrong, i'd be burnin inside w/ a strong desire to torture both the parents. but, i ain't responsible. they are and they will most assuredly get what they deserve once their lives end.

call it cold, call it uncaring, call it what you will. but it is somthin to think about ;)

[CarolU]

Before you call any of it cruel, maybe you should call it all cruel. You really need to go live on a farm...raise and kill your own chickens, rabbits, beef, pigs, lambs....then - with realistic eyes - call what other societies eat "cruel." Meat doesn't come from the grocery store all wrapped in celophane in most of the world. Meat becomes meat only after an animal is killed. Just because someone else does your killing, doesn't make you less cruel If you think it's 'cruel' to kill pray animals, then blame GOD or NATURE and not the PREDATORS who kill and eat them - which includes man. Our systems need a lot of protien and that's just the way it is.

[Brigitte]

I would never eat horse meat knowingly. Ever. I wouldn't..that other people do that's their issue not mine. But I liked the article.

[LeAnn]

I always wondered how anyone that knew anything about horses could ever eat one. Even if it was not taboo think of everything we do and give our horses. All the de-wormer drugs meds we give them. I would never eat a horse anyway but sure wouldnt eat one knowing all the stuff we pump into them.

[Thomasj]

jus think of all the pesticides used when farming ;)

or all the additives in the foods we eat.

or the poisonous fumes we inhale, i.e. cigarette smoke, vehicle exhaust, bathrooms w/ no fan, acid rain, etc

the only thing pure anymore is groundwater lmao

[Brigitte]

jus think of all the pesticides used when farming ;)

or all the additives in the foods we eat.

or the poisonous fumes we inhale, i.e. cigarette smoke, vehicle exhaust, bathrooms w/ no fan, acid rain, etc

the only thing pure anymore is groundwater lmao

Not even groundwater...all those stuff like pesticides go deep down in the ground in the water.

[Terry Wallace]

Hhhmmm..cattle get wormed, they get antibiotics when needed, they get vaccinated.... growth chemicals....BUT...like any livestock for human consumption...they have a time of waiting before they are slaughtered from the feed lot.

The horse ranches here in Montana and Wyoming that raise horses specifically for human consumption surely had a similar waiting period....?

I saw one of the most beautiful truck loads of Belgian horses at the USDA station at the Canada border at Sweet Grass, Wyo.... they were slaughter horses on their way to a slaughter house in Canada...they were getting inspected.

[Carol Nelson]

...and we wonder why there is so much cancer...if we really knew the extent of the harmful chemicals we eat, breathe and live in...

[britzlove]

Carol...I don't know where you think I stand...but I call commercial slaughter of all animals cruel, especially for horses who have been trained and used for other purposes, especially when talking inadequate facility.

I was raised around farm raised food. We need to return to family farming, community co-ops. Thats a discussion for a WHOLE month.

I do not oppose horse slaughter. I oppose the slaughter industry as it exists now, because of both economic and animal welfare issues. If an American company wants to open up a slaughter house tomorrow and perform to certain regulations, guidelines...I'd be right in their corner.

I wish in this discussion more people could get away from the emotion, and in the other thread we're doing pretty good. For the good of horse people and horses this is an important issue. I mean both sides have merit.

Britz

[LeAnn]

Yes cattle get vaccines and de-wormed but as you said they have holding period after recieving those for a time period before slaughter. Cattle dont get seditives very often, pain killers, or the like. Here in IL we have a slaughter house there is no holding horses there they are processed as they come in. If a horse goes though an auction one day it can be at the killers in a few hrs. If you go to one of the monthly horse auctiosn the kill buyers are standing in the ring bidding on horses there isnt going to be any hold time on most of those horses they are go to haul them up to Dekalb after the auction is over.

[britzlove]

Above board good business practices at work. I cannot testify to truth, but if this witness is repeating first hand information...Someone needs to email NetPosse so they can post someone there if they can find volunteers.

Commercial slaughter of American horses by foreign companies inadequately regulated...daringly operating without regard to law. If I had time I'd be on a bus to document validity.

I don't know whether you were saying they can't be safe because no withdrawl, or that it isn't cruel because its quicker.

OK, maybe this makes me a little more emotive :evil:

Britz

[CarolU]

Commercial slaughter of American horses by foreign companies inadequately regulated...daringly operating without regard to law. If I had time I'd be on a bus to document validity.


Where do you get this information that these slaughterhouses were inadequately regulated and were operating "without regard to law." ?? It is my understanding that even though they were foreign-owned, they still have to operate under the pervue of USDA, with veternarians on-site and with USHS inspections.

So...now that they are closed down, what is happening to those horses? Does anyone know? Has anyone checked? Are they being shipped to Canada or Mexico now for slaughter? Wouldn't it be horendously ironic if the movement to end 'humane' horse slaughter in the U.S., actually ended up sending the very same horses to Mexico where there are no regulations, veternarians or humane society to make sure the horses die humanely.

Watch Bo Derek's film clip. See how they kill horses in Mexico.

Where are those horses? I did a search and can't find any information that anyone has followed up on them at all.

[Carol Nelson]

Where do you get this information that these slaughterhouses were inadequately regulated and were operating "without regard to law." ??

Oh, this is definitely true...there are things going on in my own county that would blow your socks off...

And the same is true of the slaughterhouses in Texas...there is seldom a holding time...a horse is usually processed from start to finish in less than two days.

[Terry Wallace]

...a horse is usually processed from start to finish in less than two days.


Even if it is coming from a farm that specifically raises horses for slaughter for human consumption? Would they not have already had that waiting period before shipment?

How can you be so sure without reviewing the actual shipment papers?

I do not doubt that some horses get passed through...but then not all those horse are specifically for human consumtion...some are for pet food, zoo animal food & the like...

I know that the horses I saw at the Canadian border were definitely being inspected, and the inspector had a whole handfull of papers on those horses.....

I would "assume" that horses for pet & zoo feeding would need no such inspection (?)

[CarolU]

Carol,

I want to SEE the articles that STATE that these processing plants were not inspected by the USDA and the USHS, and the horses were not unconcious before they were killed. That is the LAW in the U.S., and to my understanding, what the slaughterhoueses were required to do. I want to SEE where they weren't following the LAW.

AND I really want to see how all the people who stepped up and got the slaughter stopped, have now stepped up to give those horses a happily-ever-after. C'mon, it's 50-100,000 horses a year. They have to go SOMEWHERE!!!

Or is it OK to ship them to Mexico and shoot them in the head, because it isn't Americans killing them now?

The responsibility for these horses doesn't END with the closing of the slaughterhouses... it BEGINS.

I want to see what is being done for them.

[cowboy ed]

hmmmmmmmph!! and i bet most of ya'll eat eggs........... :lol:

[Minouri]

I've got to chime in on CarolUs point. I agree that when we closed slaughter houses instead of improving them, we didn't do the horses any good. I haven't read one article so far about where those horses went. Were they cared for or neglected while the transition was made? Where do unwanted horses go now?

And I see no difference between a horse that was raised for food or raised as a pet when it comes to slaughter. Does a horse that has not had human interaction value its life less? I know we see them in terms of US, but I'm not so sure THEY would agree.

In the ideal world I could still have my chicken salad and no chicken would have to die for it. Steak would be processed from some safe grain instead of live animals. And all horses would be valued and cared for by responsible owners and auction houses would close from lack of business. Unfortunately that's not the way our present world works.

If you eat meat or use products that have animal products as an ingredient - you slaughter. I get confused by the "My hands are clean of this..." mentality.

I am a human being. I eat animals. I use prodcuts made from animals. I'm ok with that. I pay people to kill those animals in a place where I don't have to hear it or see it...and then I pay them to package it nicely for me and keep it at a good price in the stores. My hands are definately dirty. If you think yours aren't, I'd like to check your fridge and your house for animal based products. I doubt anyone is holding themselves to that high standard. So, if you use it....you kill it.

And I know this is unpopular, but I do not value the life of one type of animal over another's. I'm sorry, even skunks are God's creatures. Just cause we can't ride them or cuddle with them on the couch, doesn't mean they feel or think less than the animals we interact with. I feel for horses that are slaughtered. I just don't feel MORE for them than I do for cows. I doubt cows feel bad for the horses either.

I buy free range eggs and hope that it means the chickens were actually allowed to roam around (Who really knows.) I would buy a meat exclusively if it were labeled....killed humanely. I prefer makeup that no one tested on animals. I take care of my animals and have vowed that none of them will ever find themselves at an auction or an animal shelter. After that, I'm never quite sure what else to do. I try to support legislation that makes sense for animals, but often feel that we dont' get the full story.

These threads always make me a little sad because there is always so much emotion.....and never any solution. At the end of the day, how we FEEL doesn't help or hurt the animals. It's the actions we take to make a change that does.

What DID happen to those horses? Anyone know?

[Red Ryder]

Minour, excellent post,

I truly care for my animals, BUT I would never put their value in front of a human value, humans must eat !!!!

I even plan to bury my horse on a knoll behind the barn, beautiful place, and as crazy as it sounds I plan to put head stones for each.

I can't see valuing a horse's life more than a goat, cow, chicken etc. I believe just as fishes in the sea, all animals were put on earth to eat,admire,work and assist man kind.

We are going to see more abused horses care wise, no doubt.

[Terry Wallace]

Oh No Ed...are you saying those chicken "orifices" are not inspected daily!!! :D hehehehehe!!!

You betcha I eat eggs....!!!

I have to agree with Red Ryder.... that a human life is valued more than that of ANY animal..... ;-)

[Jane Hurl]

We go overboard giving horses human-like emotions.
We look at the fate of unwanted horses as though they were our own.

Horses don't have any different (or much different) emotions than cattle, I don't imagine. I have a bull who has the biggest, softest, most gentle eyes in the whole world and who will go where I ask, when I ask ... but he's still a bull and nobody would think twice about it if I were to send him for slaughter. So what makes him so much less special than my ornery little white mare who I can't even get into a trailer?

And CarolU is right ... what is going to happen to 50,000-100,000 unwanted horses (each year!) now? Has anyone asked Bo (and her ilk) to go buy up a state or two (they'll need at least that much land), fence it and keep them 'til they die of old age? And how many vets will she/they need on staff to look after these horses' needs every year?

The whole bleeding-heart idea of not processing horses is preposterous. Millions of horses will suffer unnecessarily because of the stupidity of Bo and Company.

[britzlove]

CarolU,

I'm not going to go into the very lengthy defense of my USDA argument. Spend 10+ years researching the truth of the industry, go through all the transcripts of related lawsuits and criminal trials. You could just start learning at the Humane Farming Association, see they aren't out there trying to get everyone to not eat meat, just support humane slaughter.

The foriegn owned horse plants have legal battle outside the passage of this bill. All of the attention by the ban slaughter folks have helped in some small part, by highlighting bad business practices used to the shade of ignorance. They've been in and out of court for years, you're just now hearing more about the whole issue.

It's unlikely that you want to spend the time to deeply investigate some of this information, and they count on people thinking that because the law says something's supposed to happen, it's taken care of, handled, out of sight out of mind.

I'm not going to change my position. I'm neither for nor truly against slaughter. From both sides of this...really I do think it's very important that somehow this issue is handled. The anti-slaughter majority is doing a disservice because they want to keep all horses alive and pampered, and the pro-slaughter people are doing the disservice of refusing to see the opportunity to step in and show a way to remove the very real issues which prohibit slaughter as it stands now to be viewed positively.

[CarolU]

So, what you are saying is that THESE are lies:

http://www.commonhorsesense.com/

http://www.commonhorsesense.com/pdf/MYTH_FACT.pdf

And that we shoud instead believe organizations that use videos of the unregulated slaughter houses in Mexico (where U.S. horses are undoubtedly being slaughtered as we speak), in order to stir people up? If you ask me, they've pretty much lost all credibility by not being honest about it.

All I want to know is what happens to all the horses now that they are not being shocked before being killed (humanely) with USDA and veternarains inspectors watching to make sure the laws are followed.

[Terry Wallace]

Horse processing is the most tightly regulated of any animal slaughter, and the only animal that has its transportation to slaughter regulated. If horse processing plants are forced to close, the Horse Welfare Coalition estimates the 60,000 to 90,000 unwanted horses annually would be exposed to potential abandonment and neglect.

The 60,000-90,000 additional unwanted horses each year would compete for adoption with the 32,000 wild horses that U.S. taxpayers are already paying $40 million to shelter and feed.

The nation’s inadequate, overburdened, and unregulated horse rescue/ adoption facilities can not handle the influx of the 60,000+ additional horses each year that would result from a slaughter ban, according to the Congressional Research Service.

Many zoo animal diets rely on equine protein because it mimics what the animal would receive in the wild. Veterinarians and animal nutritionists say it's the healthiest diet for these big cats and rare birds. If legislation shuts down horse processing facilities, the only USDA-inspected source for this meat will be eliminated.


Good info from that site for sure...THANKS for posting it!

[britzlove]

CarolU,

I'm really not trying to start a one on one battle here, I'm not. I have tried very hard to be well-rounded in this discussion.

I have said and said and said and said....there are good points that need further research and open discussion on both sides.

Pertaining to this specific conversation though:

So, what you are saying is that THESE are lies:

http://www.commonhorsesense.com/

http://www.commonhorsesense.com/pdf/MYTH_FACT.pdf


No, I'm not calling them liers. I am suggesting that using only one website to solidify a position is flawed. There are some good points there, and their is some coloring of information to mislead some of the public there too. Firstly, using only the web is a little flawed too.

And that we shoud instead believe organizations that use videos of the unregulated slaughter houses in Mexico (where U.S. horses are undoubtedly being slaughtered as we speak), in order to stir people up? If you ask me, they've pretty much lost all credibility by not being honest about it.


OK, I'm not suggesting you believe anything. If I wanted to suggest what people should believe I'd be out promoting atheism, but I'm not. If you want to believe that all the video was taken in Mexico, go ahead. I don't know who informed you that they were all taken there, but I do know for certain where the source of some footage is, and she's now deceased and was a very, very good person, so yes it bothers me for you to disparage her work. I'll agree that there are anti-slaughter groups not facing the whole issue I've said that. I don't know who "we" is, but I will continue to search out all available information and regonizing bias. That's what I'm going to do.
Pertaining to the horses being sent to Mexico, I think you'd be surprised. Commit yourself to learning the truth of this. I promise, you'll be surprised to see that it is not that easy. Also, I will mention that they are no longer shut down, they are still slaughtering, just not shipping over sea, or not supposed to be. It's all supposed to be zoo food right now, and hide processing.

All I want to know is what happens to all the horses now that they are not being shocked before being killed (humanely) with USDA and veternarains inspectors watching to make sure the laws are followed.

Shocked? As in electricity? USDA inspectors and vetrinarians watching, as in present? Always watching?
I'm sorry but it seems to me that you have decided to cling to the over sanitized portrait painted by "The Man". I can sympathicize with that desire. I would love to believe the picture that website paints of the calm, humane slaughter of all animals so that the meat isn't tainted...OK....this one has me giggling a little bit. I don't believe you want to know the truth...most people don't.

Bottom line...I'm for return to family farming. Local processors are far cleaner and more humane sources for beef, pork, and poultry. If you want to take your horse to a local processor, and he'll do it, process the meat and donate it to a zoo or I really don't care if you want to eat them yourself. I will chime into the argument that you can't be against the commercial slaughter of horses without being against all commercial slaughter. However, I will mention that because all three horse plants are owned by foriegn corporations that it adds an additional element of corruption people should familiarize themselves with.

We can all live better, and I'll cling to that hope all my life. I'm not going to ever support ugliness. I won't support horse slaughter because it is maintained by principles not in keeping with goodness. If...as I've said...Americans would spend half the time they spend trying to bash opposing views into the opponents heads into instead arriving at some ideas of a better way...and I mean both sides here I do...that would be what is best.

Because there is no other way doesn't make it right. A corrupt, law breaking corporation will never profit from any animal I can stop from arriving in their grubby little dirty hands.

Britz

[CarolU]

Apparently you did NOT read the PDF file.

[Jane Hurl]

When I take my lambs to slaughter, they're shocked. As in electrocuted. Why wouldn't EVERY animal be? Even "dirty grubby" corporations want to do this as easily as possible, right? Electrocution is cheap and it makes handling them so much easier, so why wouldn't they?

[britzlove]

Horse processing is the most tightly regulated of any animal slaughter, and the only animal that has its transportation to slaughter regulated. If horse processing plants are forced to close, the Horse Welfare Coalition estimates the 60,000 to 90,000 unwanted horses annually would be exposed to potential abandonment and neglect.


Regulation doesn't make enforcement. All three of the plants are and have been in violation status. It is important to realize that something needs to be done for excess horses I agree, but I have to point out the flaw in this pro-slaughter propaganda. Just because it's regulated, doesn't mean it's enforced.

This is where I came in early to say that its bad, bad, bad of the anti-slaughter fanction that is strong (I'm not kidding ya'll, for real, there's alot you may be under-estimating) to be dropping the ball on alternatives. And support. This legislation should ABSOLUTELY be re-written with provisions for excess horses. I am for all manners of it. But, I am not ever going to call what happens now good. The slaughter pipeline is full of criminals all the way down the line, law-breakers. Aren't you and CarolU willing to set up a processing plant that follows the guidelines? regulations? I can point to where that idea won't work and it's profitability.

The 60,000-90,000 additional unwanted horses each year would compete for adoption with the 32,000 wild horses that U.S. taxpayers are already paying $40 million to shelter and feed.

Again, there's corruption along this line you are defending as good. The BLM is an organization chock full of problems. Lies? How about how much of that 40mil actually supports wild horses? The truth...many high paid employees would not have jobs if castration were better utilized. Oh, and before anybody jumps my butt for being pro-job losing....I am not having a bleeding heart for many of those people.

The nation’s inadequate, overburdened, and unregulated horse rescue/ adoption facilities can not handle the influx of the 60,000+ additional horses each year that would result from a slaughter ban, according to the Congressional Research Service.


Dang right! As long as the rescue facilities are using their resources to keep unadoptable horses alive, frequently using donated resources to prolong a tortured exisitence. Rescues need do need to get their act straight. Also, what it doesn't address is that if rescues keep the current system they are actually encouraging bad breeding processes.
$$ they need to use this better. I am on with this one! I will note that there is an element of whitewash to this because of where it comes from so I won't completely support the statement.

Many zoo animal diets rely on equine protein because it mimics what the animal would receive in the wild. Veterinarians and animal nutritionists say it's the healthiest diet for these big cats and rare birds. If legislation shuts down horse processing facilities, the only USDA-inspected source for this meat will be eliminated.


Just addressed this too. Horses are currently still slaughtered in TX, now supposedly only for zoo food. What is not mentioned is that the plants know they don't want to only process zoo food because it lowers profit margin. And the USDA inspection...oh thats a bunch of hooey. The people here against NAIS that will trumpet the greatness of the USDA here, and bash NAIS elsewhere are really starting to wear me out.
We need to take back our responsibility desperately.

I think it's a great idea to start a company that slaughters horses for zoo food. I think if you used local processors that only process horses in their area, and you networked it with others who want to see a better way to rid the US of it's excess horses...there you go. The more I think of it, the better it sounds.

Brittany

[CarolU]

Britz,

I am a scientist. As such I will normally take the word of fellow scientists over emotional observers. Have you read the AVMA reports and positions on horse slaughter and euthanasia? If THEY say it is humane - and they do - why shouldn't I believe them? They are, after all, the people who actually DO the inspections at the plants.

http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/animal_welfare/transport_horses.asp

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf

http://www.avma.org/press/releases/060725_beaver_testimony.asp


And this one might even take some of the emotions out of the PMU arguements:

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/apr02/s041502d.asp

[britzlove]

I have read the pdf, I have read 100s of documents just like this on both sides...I really have I'm not just saying that.

I still think you are all too willing to accept bureaucrat garbage.

On the electrocution thing...some livestock yes...horses...no. I'm sorry Jane but lambs being of a different size is the main thing I think, I'm really not sure, but I know poultry too is smaller and they are electrocuted sometimes. Also, if you look at lamb slaughter in a corporate facility it will be far different from a small processor.

I just saw the newest post Carol...I have read that, and much, much more. I understand that you are a scientist, and I see your reasoning on that, and if you want to accept that for your own reasons, that's fine with me. I do not see any big corporation's propaganda as more valuable than other observances. My vet acknowledges the descrepency in what is supposed to happen and what does happen. The AVMA and the USDA are corporate bedfellows. Not in keeping with my personal values, though they are in keeping with the values of pro-corporate controlled America.

Please also see a thread I will start next.

[Terry Wallace]

How about how much of that 40mil actually supports wild horses?

Britz this really makes me wonder if you have seen any BLM operations at work.... Like Palomino Valley for example...where BLM horses are housed & fed for years & years & years & years in smallish pens until they die... they kind of equipment it takes to run such a facility...the trucks that distribute the feed....the chopped hay itself...the vetting for thousands of horses, The farriers, the staff to run the place...and that is just ONE place!

I don't think $40mil is unreal at all... I sure as HECK think that money should be BETTER put to use to feed homeless in our country, used for medicines for all, health insurance, etc...and NOT to keep a bunch of unwanted, unadoptable horses alive..for no good reason other than to make *some* humans like Bo Derek feel "good".........

Even National Geographic documented those facts... that is available on video...check your local library...