Dressage at its finest

[Privatetreaty]

Hello all,

I just wanted to share with you, this video of an extraordinary nine year old mare, that is making big waves in the International Dressage circuit. Typically, horses are well over twelve years of age, with this kind of talent and finish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw

Enjoy,
Helen

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[Terry Wallace]

Hellion.... you been gone too long! Welcome back...

hate to break this to you...but that looks to be the same tail wringing, spurred every step mare we all looked at earlier.... maybe someone will direct you to the thread....

For me... I don't like what I see... I don't like that she is unhappy and being spurred nearly every step she takes.....

if that is what modern dressage is coming tooo..... count me out! ;-)

[CarolU]

I'm with Terry. Take me back to Classical Dressage. I think that man was so intent on animation and 'action' he dug his spurs in a lot more then necessary for a cue. She is a pretty PO'd mare, wringing her tail and telling the world she is not a happy camper. Dumb man. Somebody ought to wring his tail, so he 'get's it!'

[appyday]

Nice mare but that swishing tail is distracting I would have to get that huzzy a tail job... :-?

[Pasogirlz]

Yes, Helen, it has been WAY too long. Welcome back. :hug

[paintedhorizon]

I'm sure I'm going to regret this, however.....................

Now see, I see that differently. I don't see tail wringing, I see swishing. And it's in tune. Her ears are relaxed, her body is relaxed, a bit of tension in the neck, but overall, I see a horse that is enjoying herself. Actually, near the end, her head is even bobbing with the music.

[Cindy]

I vote no. Can't even watch it again. Did not make it all the way through the first time. A little tail movement is one thing but that is something else entirely.

[andrea]

Anky Van Grunven did alot smoother = classy performance. Watch that one.

[Cindy]

Anky Van Grunven did alot smoother = classy performance. Watch that one.

Is that the other one that was posted back when this one was before? I never did get around to checking that one out.

[CarolU]

I agree with Andrea...watch Anky's....no wringing tail there...just a beautiful, perfect performance. I watched it several times and thoroughly enjoyed it.

[Terry Wallace]

A "swishing tail" does not wring up/rotate over top of the top line or rear end.... I don't see that mare as being one bit happy...I see apprehension...as she wonders when the next spur will sting her side...
JMO

[andrea]

Yes, it was posted awhile back. I can't figure out how to repost it. I think Anky's performance is so much better. Hardly any tail swishing. WHen she does her change of lead right with the song gives you goose bumps. Her horse did a beatiful job. No comparison.

[Privatetreaty]

Thanks for the welcome back Terry and Lori.

I agree with Terry Wallace, this mare, Blue Hors Matine is wringing her tail and it is disconcerting to us, as we know it's severely penalized in Pasos. Sure, 30 year old Andreas Helgstrand is pushing hard and using his blunt spurs, but these horses are worked with spurs from the very beginning and they know how to use them. Like most riders, Andreas' style doesn't change much, as shown in this 2006 World Cup video, while riding Don Schufro. Yet, Schufro's reaction to the spurs is totally different from Matine's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztkeJyTxtDE

There are applications to curb tail movement, but there is nothing you can do about ear pinning. Tail swishing is considered natural for balance for the various required "movements". As a result, ear pinning is typically penalized in Dressage. And yet we do not penalize a Paso, when it is pushed to do a perfectly "sounding" fino on the board, while falsely collected, hard mouthed and ears are totally pinned back.

The reason why Matine was not severely penalized for the tail wringing, is because her action are not completely logical. She never demonstrated any of the angry or frustrated characteristics, associated with tailing wringing: no ear pinning, no back stiffness, nor head or body resistance. She was always on the bit, supple, balanced, willing and her transitions were smooth. It's almost as if this mare has a tail neurosis.

When Isabell Werth broke the Grand Prix World's record score riding Satchmo at Stuttgart (Germany), she pushed this 12 year old gelding and he was tail was wringing, he did pin his ears and slightly stiffen his back. This is a typical reaction to tail wringing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_H08FiTCJU&mode=related&search=

We have very knowledgeable horse people in this forum and I'm surprised that nobody cared to look beyond the tail and acknowledge this mare's brilliance. Pushing is expected in competition, especially at the 2006 World Equestrian Games in Athens, Greece. It doesn't get any bigger then this. Also, I must point out that Matine's performance won her the "Best Individual Title" and Andreas went home to Denmark with a Silver medal. Even the Equisearch article refers to Matine's performance as "electrifying".
http://www.equisearch.com/equiwire_news/weg2006/dressage/WEGdressageFS082606/

Comparing Matine to 39 year old Anky Van Grunsven's Keltic Salinero, is like comparing apples to oranges. Keltic Salinero, an eleven year old gelding, has benefited from years of intensive training by their owners, Anky and her trainer husband. Additionally, Anky's performance was "safe", in order to avoid faults. Salinero's tail bends to the left, from the top. Which means that his tail is tied, during workouts (a trick not exclusive to Pasos). Andreas has been working at Blue Hors (the barn's name) for just four years.

Paso Fino's don't live in a time capsule and neither does Dressage. The changes have been dramatic; the horse's movement, the way we show (the board), even the training equipment, have all influence the judging. Remember Precision LaCe, a fino National Champion from the mid 1970's, purchased for $5,000? Considered an outrageous amount of money for a Paso back then. What is $5,000 going to buy you today?

[Cindy]

PT, welcome back from me as well. I am not comparing dressage to Paso Fino. They are two different things. I would not like a Paso Fino that expressed the traits that you mention and I don't like this dressage horse and rider combo. Sorry, that is just how I feel. There is no need for so much spur useage and the tail ringing is a result of that. Whether a horse is a Paso Fino that is pushed too much or a Warmblood that is pushed too much, while others may find it appealing, I personally don't. A horse if it is truely great at it's particular sport does not NEED to be pushed to be great. They just are. I guess that is what I would be more happy to see. I don't like what dressage has become these days. And, yes, there are many things about what Paso Fino has become that I am not thrilled with either. But I do what I can to change that for the better within my breed. I just hope there are people in the dressage world who care to do the same.

[Terry Wallace]

My thoughts are...if she is "so well trained" why does he have spurs on at all? If he truely "knew how to use them" he would not be gigging her so hard.... heel should be quite enough.... just watch her closely....she does not like being spurred...and probably doesn't even NEED to be spurred...watch her on the first stride on the half-pass across the arena ...he gigs her good right there...and why? Looks to me like the mare KNOWS what to do... I'd much prefer a quiet tail...

[Cindy]

Yep, the spur should be used as an extension of the leg in order to reinforce a cue. Not as the leg itself in order to give the cue. In my opinion as a trainer of any horse, if one must used the spurs to that extent in order to cue the horse, the horse is not finished enough to be competing at that level. Just a personal opinion but that's what it is.

[Fuego]

Today's dressage competetions have very little to do with the actual art of dressage.

Originally dressage was used to 'finish' well trained riders and well trained horses for battle. The premis was to perfect communication between rider and horse going to war in order to have the horse dependable and responsive to the slightest of cues from the rider during battle ( so that the rider could focus on staying alive and killing the enemy.

Can you imagine a modern dressage rider going into battle on one of their horses. How is a soldier supposed to fight the enemy when he needs to gouge his horse with spurs for every stride and hauling on the bit like a body builder trying to keep a "proper" headset and force the 'proper' response.

Won't even address the reaction to most dressage horses that saw another horse charging at them or a gun or cannon being fired within a 2 mile radius of their horses.

Plenty of aspiring DQ's at my barn, sadly, most of them barely qualify as beginner riders at best. But lots of spur gouging and hauling on the bit and they look like the majority of other DQs. Of course the riders are more exhausted by the end of their ride then the horses are, lol.
haven't figured out the enjoyment of that type of riding yet.

Of course all of these well trained 'dressage' horses that are so responsive that they need to have their mouths bound tightly shut with leather straps to prevent the horse from seeking relief from all of the bit hauling .

Spur gouging and and using the bit instead of your Bow-Flex to build your bi-ceps is not my idea of communication between horse and rider. It's compliance by force and punishment.

I've met very few dressage riders that have even an inkling of what real dressage is really about. And even fewer that actually have to skills neccessary to even start the process.

[CarolU]

We have a classic dressage instructor here in our area. She has nothing good to say about this popular Germanic version which directs every step with spur. A spur is supposed to be a CUE, not a PROD. It should talk to the horse, not hurt it. If the horse is wringing its tail, the spurs are being used too harshly. There is a reason almost every equine discipline penalizes tail wringing and swishing (other then at flies). The tail is a great communicator.

To be totally honest, I've never seen a horse wag its tail in happiness or pleasure. These aren't dogs! Nor are they cats.

[cowboy ed]

a few years ago, i watched a live performance at a dressage show. there were two andalusian stallions, a gray and a black that did a very intricate routine which included most all of the high level movements. the routine ended with the horses circling each other while doing one of those fancy movements, (not sure of the name), then bowing at the end of it all.

i watched very, very closely, and could not discern how and when the riders were cueing the horses. they were not even wearing spurs. the horses' tails were relaxed and still.

[Terry Wallace]

Now what Ed describes...is "training at its finest" to be sure.... :D