Rare color for a PPRPF Stallions

[Rafael Arbelo]

This young stallions are really a rarity in the ranks of the PPRPF ... Although they are featured in the upcoming issue that will arrive to Puerto Rico tomorrow; I couldn't wait to show them to you guys.

Comentario de Barbafogo
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/Yumac/No23Comentario.jpg

[Carol Nelson]

My God...what a beautiful horse...and such a reasonable stud fee! :eek: :D

[Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire]

That ad design ROX too. 8-)

[Terry Wallace]

He looks like a roan with grey gene expression....
Is he roan, sabino or?
What are the colors of the parents?

[Heidi]

I think he looks like a chestnut sabino turning gray. See the mottleing at his cheeks and face?
h

[Terry Wallace]

Yes.. he could be roan going grey, chestnut sabino going grey, chestnut roan sabino going grey....or max sabino going grey...
Definite sabino flecks on insides of hind legs... a bit of chestnut over his back still there...Looks like his muzzle was always white...

Parents color anyone?

[Rafael Arbelo]

I wish I could be of more help with his color ... :roll: ... but here is another picture of Comentario so you can have a better view of his face ... I hope this helps ...

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/Yumac/ComentariodeBarbafogoIMG_0002.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

Max sabino...sabino at any rate...either max or greying...my bet is grey gene expressing.

[Rafael Arbelo]

But here is another one ... his name is Reliquia de Relicario ... both of these stallions are VERY rare by PPRPF standards

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/Yumac/ReliquiadeRelicario.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

He looks like a chestnut going grey. Why is this rare in PR Rafael?
This horse will likely be snow white in time... when the grey takes all the other color away...
Anytime you breed a grey to a solid there is a 50% chance you will get grey gene....

The other horse's mom is posted on another BB (PFHD.com)....that horse is maximum sabino...mom is sabino and sire has minimal sabino features....

Candice.... here is a PR max sabino you could likely get a sabino from..especially if you have a sabino mare......

[Rafael Arbelo]

These colors are very common in Colombian Pasos but you can hardly find them in Paso Finos (PPR). For some reason, I have a theory that may lead me to write an article for the magazine, the breeders started to cull out and avoid breeding these colors ... The consequence is almost extermination of these beautiful animals ...

[Terry Wallace]

I bet your theory won't hold as there are MANY sabinos in PR....his dam la reina de los Kofresi is a good example.... it is rare to get a maximum sabino... not rare to have sabinos.

Think of all the PPR sabinos there are...like starting with the mare Jaqueline (sp) right up to these horses and don't forget Dulce Sueno...he was sabino too....

[Rafael Arbelo]

You are absolutely right about that, but I was referring to grey horses …

[Terry Wallace]

Oh...O.k.! I know I don't like and won't breed to grey horses!
You won't find any on my farm. Especially now that it is proven fact that 80% of all grey horses WILL develop melanoma in their lifetime....

After having been through melanoma problems on Andalusian horses..I don't care to have any grey horses again..JMO

[Carol Nelson]

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/36931devantemom.JPG

Well...they are in abundance in this country...we call them (sadly) fleabit gray, and I have one in my own pasture. This is Joya Luciente de Vison, a double Hilachas bred mare.
I don't particularly care for the gray either although Lacy is a pretty mare. I bought her back from a guy I sold her to, for $900, and she gave me my outstanding red bay colt that you see in the photo.
There was some discussion as to whether Lacy was homozygous for the gray gene, but I think Devante is going to prove that she is not. He is still a very vivid red bay at two years old.
Lacy does have some melanomas, but none in a particularly dangerous place. My vet says that she will die of old age before her melanomas kill her. :smile:

[Terry Wallace]

Your vet may be right and he may be wrong.... How is she on the "inside' ...those are the melanomas that kill...

He (your vet) has a real good chance of being right....most will die of old age..I just don't need the extra expense of removing problematic melanomas, like around the eyes, and genitals.

How old is the mare...and when did the melanomas begin to show up?

[Rafael Arbelo]

I know they are abundant here, just like in PR, but those are Colombian Pasos or mixed ... I am talking Pure Puerto Rican Paso Finos ... Very difficult to find with those kind of colors :smile:

[Carol Nelson]

Her ultrasounds when she was pregnant showed no problems there...she has the melanomas on the hairless part of her tail, under the dock...none on the genitals. She delivered all three of her last foals by herself (with Devante, I went to make some instant coffee, came back and there he was... ;-) ) with no problems...I hope to breed her again at least one more time before I retire her, she is 19 years old and in great shape.
I don't know when they first materialized, she came from AZ, and they were there when I got her.
But we're stealing Rafael's thread here...sorry! ;-)

[Linda Y]

I agree with Terry...the first horse looks like an extreme sabino, and the second flea bitten gray.
But melanomas don't just occur in grays. My perlino mare has them and she is PPR and has NO gray in her background. But, like that vet says, old age...or her insulin resistance...will take her before the melanomas will.

[Terry Wallace]

Yes... I'm aware Linda... its just that greys get them FOR SURE 80% of the time...and I don't like those odds!

Paint horses get them sometimes too, on their white markings...I've seen them on the white marking where pink skin meets grey skin on a paint before...but then...paints can get sarcoids on markings too..rare from what I've seen....

[Terry Wallace]

BACK TO...the subject!
Here is a Sabino Gradients Chart.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/SabinogradientchartBB.jpg

[Kerry W]

This young stallions are really a rarity in the ranks of the PPRPF ... Although they are featured in the upcoming issue that will arrive to Puerto Rico tomorrow; I couldn't wait to show them to you guys.


thanks

[The Professional]

It's a fact that both horses are sabino...but they are roan as well. So, if they have to be called by their colors...Roan Savino is the best call.

In PR, these colors, like gray and extended savino are not rare but isolated from the breeding programs of most of the breeders.

This is due because of the preferences of the people. Probably in the mainland, these color patterns are considered exotic, but here in PR they are considered by most jugdes and breeders as inferior colors.

Not the sabino pattern for what most of us, feel proud to show in our horses.

Still, there are a lot of people, like me, that doesn't discriminate horses by their colors and love them for what they are. That's why you can see a hole bunch of those color patterns scattered all around but not so many in the competitions.

[Ferrum]

This last Sunday, February 18th,
Judge, licdo Luis Laguna Mimosa explained that
as Judges, "We don't come here to judge color, but conformation."
and the best conformation presented today was that of
"Navaja de Barba Fogo " and we call his color
"Alazano Rocino"
so, Navaja de Barba Fogo won his Bella Forma Class,
Congradulations to the owner Jose Vivo, and the trainer Rafael Serano.

[Terry Wallace]

Mr. Pro..it takes a roan to make a roan. Commentario has no roan parent. He is extensive white sabino. Sabino can "look" like roan...but it is not roan. That is a very common mistake made with sabino.

Sabino will produce more & more whote hair as the horse ages...but it is not roan.

Roan Primer:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/RoanPrimerBB.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

For those of you who study color...there is a false statement on the Roan
Quick Guide.....(posted above).

Can anyone tell what it is?

[Terry Wallace]

Name the CORRECT color of this horse! :D
EDITING to ad...this horse has NO roan parent.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/BanditBB.jpg

[CarolU]

Interesting. I have a grey PR Paso Fino. She does have a Colombian stallion - Luciefer - WAY back there, which is apparently where the grey comes from. I was in a battle years ago with an 'expert' who insisted to me that she could not be PR because she is grey, and there "are NO GREY PR Paso Finos!!!"

BTW - she turns 20 this Sunday... :D

http://pasobaby.tripod.com/PasoFinos/BeckyBaby2.jpg

[Rafael Arbelo]

This is Barbafogo and he is the sire of Comentario

http://www.arsdelicata.com/pedigrees/b/images/photobarbafogo.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/Yumac/Barbafogo.jpg

... and this is Comentario's dam ... La Reina de Los Kofresí ...

http://www.arsdelicata.com/pedigrees/r/images/photoreinadeloskofresi.jpg


... and here is a half brother of Comentario by his sire ... his name is Navaja de Barbafogo

http://www.arsdelicata.com/pedigrees/n/images/photonavajadebarbafogo.jpg

[Linda Y]

Barbafogo has a seriously unusual face marking! He is a nice sabino, too. So, are you calling Navaja a roan? What color was the dam? He is sort of colored like a red (or strawberry) roan Tennessee Walker, but he is lacking the dark joints. Of course, the white is over his knee on his right front, but his right hock doesn't appear darker, although there does look to be a dark spot on it.
I am loving seeing these PPRs!! :D

[Terry Wallace]

What is the color of the dam of Navaja de Barbafogo?

Barbafogo is Chestnut sabino...no roan gene there.

[Heidi]

For those of you who study color...there is a false statement on the Roan
Quick Guide.....(posted above).

Can anyone tell what it is?
"Homozygous roan does not occur."

The pic you posted is of a chestnut with sabino markings?
Comentario's parents (Barbafogo and La Reina de Los Kofresi) are NOT roan. Nevaja appears to be chestnut turning grey, not roan, also. I bet his dam was gray.
h

[Terry Wallace]

Heidi...you are correct !

Homozygous roan does in fact exist. There are a couple of HZ roan AQHA stallions at stud.

Every once in a while an HZ roan embryo does live long enough to actually get to fetal stage and develop as a normal foal.

Years ago... it was thought that all HZ roan embryos died before they cold ever develop and that HZ roan was 100% lethal....now it is something like 99.9% lethal, as some obviously survive....

Hooray for genetic technology! It just gets better all the time....

EDITING to add...and you are right about the horse I posted being chestnut sabino....no roan gene there either!

[Rafael Arbelo]

The dam of Navaja de Barbafogo was bay with white (short) socks ... Here is another pic of Navaja ...



http://www.pasofinoforum.com/uploads/administrator/2006-05-24_133952_IMG_3140.JPG

[Terry Wallace]

Navaja is sabino... and will likely get "whiter" with age...she cannot be grey without a grey parent.

Nor does she have roan gene.

[Carol Nelson]

That Navaja can eat cookies in my barn anyday!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Gorgeous, and I believe it is a he... ;-)

One of the prettiest roans I think I have ever seen just happens to also be a Rojo Tejas daughter...Salsita de Rojo Navidad...

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/36931Cnv0237.jpg

But of course, the roan gene did not come from Red...although the red might have been helped along by him...mama is a bay roan.
Funny thing though...the owner says that this winter she appeared almost black in color and they are anxiously waiting to see what she will be when she sheds out!

[The Professional]

Mr. Pro..it takes a roan to make a roan. Commentario has no roan parent. He is extensive white sabino. Sabino can "look" like roan...but it is not roan. That is a very common mistake made with sabino.

Terry, you have no idea how much I enjoy these "cyber color classes", so if roan is a common mistake in the definition of these gens, I've made that mistake very often.

Nevertheless, one can never give a statement for granted when refering to these colors, for one never knows how much mother nature (God) play jokes on us... Check this out and you'll see what I mean.
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p119/The_Professional_photos/miljon.jpg

[motorgypsy]

Iceys and minis really have some weird colors!!

[Terry Wallace]

one can never give a statement for granted when refering to these colors

Oh, sure you can...! We now know what makes those colors happen, grey, roan & sabino...

Failure of a dilution gene to dilute all of a horse can result in a horse like the one you posted above....just as failure of a smutt gene to darken 100% of a horse...chestnut for example...is rare but it happens.

I love strange colors.... I bought the only true Tri-color I ever saw....
I really detest the words tri-color, as that is dog color terminology...and pinto horses already have a base color...like bay pinto, buckskin pinto, etc...

BUT when I saw this particular colt..I knew I had to have him...for he is a TRUE tri-color...he is bay, AND bucksin, with the black points that either color would have...complimented by white (or absence of "color") ...

Here he is.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/TrestricolorforBB.jpg

He has a bay spot on his wither, his hip and on his side...he has two bay spots between his front legs you can't really see in the photo.

WHY is he colored like this.....? Because the dilution gene failed to turn all his "bay" to buckskin. He has the black tipped ears, he has a black tail and a white mane. This horse is the only true tri-color I have ever seen in "real life"...and the best thing about him...was he never took less than first place in the classes in the two shows I showed him in...he is very well gaited.
I sold him though because he did not get taller than 13.2HH...much too small for me to ride...but it sure was fun showing him in Bella Forma....

BTW "Skewbald" is an old term for pinto with a white head..or tan head as the horse you posted has...still a pinto...just not "white"...

[The Professional]

Not to desagree with you, but I think no one knows for sure, no scientist nobody. You see, the thing is that if you see a coat color then you can asume by the mayority of info that its at hand the genes and you could be right, but what I say is, that its a smart move to let an error margin in case some strange, loco color come up. Even scientists have isolated only one gen in the sabino genes; just to give you one example.

So, when we're talking about genes, we are talking about a deep pond of unknown stuff here... but never mind if I dont know how to explain myself. I have some others pics that I want to share so we can learn to identify colors and they are rare too.

[The Professional]

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p119/The_Professional_photos/3fac3024.jpg Terry, is this horse a "3 colored" one? I've seen many but never realized there were rare until I "heard" you say it. Is it because of gene dilutions?

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p119/The_Professional_photos/d8742f44.jpg http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p119/The_Professional_photos/e00dc698.jpg

Here are a couple more that I'm never content with the definition of their colors, So I brought them up for analysis. This is getting interesting!! :shock:

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p119/The_Professional_photos/275e35b0.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p119/The_Professional_photos/d931fd51.jpg It's a lot of work but I have to take advantage of your knowledge ;-)

[Ferrum]

The bay Buckskin Pinto miz is increadable, I'd never seen anything like that!

I would imagine it to be related of "Like" the calico cat colors, or like the merl gene in dogs.

Very Interesting for sure!
Jo-Ann

[Terry Wallace]

Mr Prof... those are two brindle horses and one of the most interesting things I learned lately is that brindles can be chimeras...i.e., if you take hair for a DNA sample from a dark stripe, and then take hair from a light stripe...the DNA will not match! There is a very good article on brindle chimeras in a recent edition of Equus magazine...would you like me to scan & email it to you.

As far as sabino having one gene identified...that is all it takes to cause color like that...

The very fist horse posted is a buckskin pinto...not a tri-color...he is buckskin (which already has black points...black legs, black mane & tail)
and white. White is a pattern breaker....to me it is the absence of color as it has pink skin underneath. Some people call white a "color" but I never have.

I can't see the running horse well..but loks like a roaning appy, or what is called a "varnish-marked" Appy.

Your last hore is a young stud that belong to Stef Shermerhorn. he is most definitely chestnut sabino, and so is his mother.

I do not agree that there are "lots of unknown color genes"...most are idfentified. It has helped me a lot in my studies of Paso Finos as many were identified as "roan" when they were actually sabino, and there was no roan gene involved. We already know it takes a roan to make a roan, a grey to make a grey, a tobiano pinto to make a tobiano pinto. We know that sabino gene can "hide" and show up generations later...but a tobiano gene does not hide....it can be "incomplete"...but it doesn't "hide".

Think of it this way in the simplest terms....what you see is what you "get".
If you have a tobiano pinto you can bet FOR SURE it has one big "T" because you can SEE it. If you have a grey, it got at least one grey gene to be able to SEE it. If you have a roan...chances are..it has only one roan gene, as 99% of HZ roans will not get past embryonic stage before they "run out" of viable DNA to continue developing. The tobiano and the grey *could* have two genes each...that can now of course be tested for

Colors are no where near the "mystery" they used to be.

If you ask me what the rarest color of Paso Fino could be...my bet is ROAN. I see very few roans. Rose Mary Axel has some roans in her herd.
I have some OLD pics of PPR horses that are roan...but only two or three...on filly and two stallions.

The one "popular" belief happening around some BB's these days is
X factor for GAIT... to me the whole concept doesn't have a leg to stand on! The gene for gait is unidentified...so how can you have an "X" factor for gait.....??? That whole theory is a "stretch" to be sure! :D

[Terry Wallace]

from 1938..Candelita..appears to be a chestnut roan.... Roan for sure, but being black & white photo... and lighter in mane & tail...likely a chestnut roan rabicano...and not a bay roan.

Years ago it would have been called "strawberry roan"...but now roans are called by the base coat color.... chestnut roan, bay roan like Carol Nelson posted in this thread...and black roan like the stallion Bri that Coreen owns..or even palomino roan like the gorgeous horse Lynn owns in Canada....

Candelita...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/CandelitaPPRBFchampion1939LarBB.jpg

[Ferrum]

I have a good colection of Roans, ( In pictures,)
These are all raons I have taken pics of in the last couple years.

So far, I have, roan over, Palomino, Black or Chocholate, bay, and chestnut.

T Wallace is right about color having been de-mystified.
since most color can be controlled through production of a protein or the lack of production of a protein, it is rather simple as a single gene can control a single protein trait, it's production or lack of production.

:D
Jo-Ann

[Linda Y]

This is a black, or what used to be called 'blue' roan. Her name is Diana la M. She is an offspring of Lucifer that I think was mentioned earlier. She was unusual because she was a black roan, but also because she was 16 hands tall! And had the prettiest head I ever saw on a mare. Sorry the picture is so washed out :(
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/yorkhrse/pasos/dianalamcopy.jpg

[motorgypsy]

We agree. Most horse colors are predictable. The unpredictable still though are:

where the white goes in tobiano and sabino

how much white you get with tobiano and sabino

at what age will the horse be completely grey

inheritance of frosting and shading - quantity and length of the shaded portion and if the horse has either.

inheritance of color intensity hot orange bay vs very red bay vs dark bay and pattern and pattern intensity in dun for example

brown pointed dun vs black pointed dun - how is this produced?

is there truly a "brown" colored gene

the importance of diet in coat color both before and after birth. Can diet affect the amount of white a foal is born with??

fading black vs true black - different gene or additional gene??

Are there any natural app colored paso finos hiding under all those greys??

[The Professional]

Mr Prof... those are two brindle horses and one of the most interesting things I learned lately is that brindles can be chimeras...i.e., if you take hair for a DNA sample from a dark stripe, and then take hair from a light stripe...the DNA will not match! There is a very good article on brindle chimeras in a recent edition of Equus magazine...would you like me to scan & email it to you.

If you ask me what the rarest color of Paso Fino could be...my bet is ROAN. I see very few roans. The one "popular" belief happening around some BB's these days is X factor for GAIT... to me the whole concept doesn't have a leg to stand on! The gene for gait is unidentified...so how can you have an "X" factor for gait.....??? That whole theory is a "stretch" to be sure! :D

Terry, once I start reading your post I think we can't stop here. Its so interesting and one learns a lot. About sending me that Equus article please do so, I'd really apreciate it. Equus is one of my favorite magazines and Horse & and Rider as well, the last one concentrated more on training. Thank you very much.

You see, that thing about DNA is news for my ears and its intense! Roans are very common in PR, but people call it by different names. This morning I was in a conference call with two pals and one of them happened to be an international pf judge.

I asked him about why colors like roan are considered inferior since I've been talking about this topic here....he explained to me that different judges have different opinions and that it's a matter of standards. In PR, a ppr horse that has sabino patterns can't compete in some open shows together with col. horses because of the standards. In open shows they use col. standards and they don't include those white patterns.

I still think there are many colors in need to be studied, because people call it one way through the years until scientists find new ways according to researches and new info of their genes. Terry, about that X factor for gait, I want to encourage you to open a topic so we can properly debate separated from this one. I think its very interesting and educational for paso fino lovers.
Thank you once again. And thanks to Just Mel for the equine colors link.

Best regards.
-The Professional

[The Professional]

Linda, your mare Diana la M indeed has a beautiful expression!
If I'm not mistaken is one person who can remaster Diana's picture. I meet him in the other forum and his nick is Guaitiao. He is a nice guy, I tried to get in touch with him but was imposible at this moment. It would be great if someone can get in touch with him and send him over!

Motorgypsy, I'm totally agree with you the whole thing! 8-)

[sporthorse]

http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?SearchType=2
I do not know this for sure but Lindsay my other half befroe I met her coresponded with Phillip Sponenberg about color and this horse of hers Nowega Diablo was supposedly a sliver dapple, very rare indeed especially in paso finos.his parentage was reseached some to see how. he was a dark bay with a mane like a smutty palomino's almost but with flecks of dark black all in it and had some other unusual stuff in his tail hairs.
On a differant rarity ,a mare Almendra de Pompei
http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Profile.asp?ID=100075
I have seen her and an offspring and they both were chestnut colored brindles/chimeras?? they were at our vets office they are paso fino mares both filly and dam.They are somewhere not too far from us in Bell or Mayo Florida

[Terry Wallace]

Ed...in the newest Equus.....the gene for silver dapple has been determined and they will soon learn its relationship to the gene causing the eye problems in some of the Rockie Horses...

You could test now for silver dapple. I would think it very doubtful that a Paso would have silver dapple gene...but not impossible, as Rockies have Paso Blood.

In the article it said it was a gene mutation, and that is why I find it doubtful you would find a Paso with silver dapple gene....more likely the gene mutation ocurred to a breeder of Rockies...or Shetlands or...?? JMO

[motorgypsy]

X factor.

Kyle is a biologist and I've taught biology although physics, chemistry and math are my primary areas of expertise and there is definitely more genetic material on the X chromosome than on the tiny Y - BUT - there still seems to be a lot of work to be done to determine exactly what is on the extra part of the X and the effect it has on the offspring.

One does need to remember that there are many other chromosomes besides the sex chromosomes to carry traits and that the sex chromosomes only supply a very small portion of the inheritance of the foal. Also the two parents essentially supply half of the genetic makeup of the foal so how the foal turns out is going to depend on which parent has the most dominant genes. Yes the mare supplies just a little more than the stallion but it isn't anywhere near as much as many theories would lead to you believe.

If for example you have a very well gaited mare or a mare with the desirable large heart or some other desirable characteristic she can pass them on if they are dominant characteristics but that doesn't mean that the characteristic is carried on the X chromosome. Chances are very good that they are NOT just by the laws of probability.

For two long the stallion was given credit for the greatness of the offspring. Now the pendulum has swung and particularly with ET the mare can be just as valuable in improving a breed as the stallion. In the wild the stallions had to fight for the right to breed so automatically the strongest stallions were able to perpetuate their genes. But the mares did the same thing with their dominance "games" and supposedly the alpha mare would not allow any other mares to breed with the stallion until she was bred herself which insured that her offspring would be the strongest, the oldest and the most likely to get food when it was scarce. Now with ET we're able to do essentially what the alpha mare did - allow the best mares to dominate. The problem of course is that our criteria for what is best is generally flawed. But at least now once again the value of the great mare is appreciated as it always should have been.

So do I personally believe that the gait gene is on the X chromosome? I'm from Missouri and you have to show me the evidence that proves it because odds are it isn't on the X.

[Candice Burger]

X factor.

Reminds me of a TRUE story when I was working in the field inspecting sewage treament plants (politically correct term is "wastewater"). I was called into duty by a coworker trying to determine the possible cause and source of fecal bacteria. Now fecal bacteria isn't harmful, occurs naturally in the intestinal tracts of all mammals and is shed out regularly. So, simple conclusion, fecal bacteria is associated with poop. All types of poop. We regulated the bacteria because it was an "indicator" species. So if you found fecal bacteria, you found poop, and where there's poop there is the chance of some really, really, really bad viruses and bacteria that will kill a human hanging around. Especially if the bad stuff is from human poop.

So imagine my surprise when I was called in to try to determine the source of fecal bacteria in the middle of the woods--as if humans crap in the woods. But deer do, raccoons, rabbit, oppossum, birds, bear, dog, cat, etc. pretty much use the woods like a bathroom. We'd come across some scat every now and then, but that was it. Could we tell which animal caused the fecal bacteria presence? Nope. So I was gone from that project in an eye blink. Nice walk in the woods for a few months then outta of there.

But my coworker presisted. So much so that she was convinced she found the cause. Deer poop. And how did she know? Well, she never ran across many animals tearing through the woods, but she did scare up some deer every now and then. And she scared them up frequently enough that since fecal is from poop, and the animals poop in the woods, and the woods are full of deer, it was deer poop causing the fecal problem. Not only were they pooping in the woods, but pooping piles and piles of poop in the streams.

Now when I heard this, I laughed so hard I cried and so did my other coworkers, some of them deer hunters. Deer don't poop in piles like horses and finding a fresh poop pile in a stream--well, I've yet to see one in all my years of investigating poop as a field inspector. But, again, my coworker was not to be denied her quest, so she set about finding a way to eliminate the fecal problem. Solution? She began by suggesting that residents in the area plant lanscapes that repelled deer and if that didn't work, to find funds and contract a nuisance hunter to kill the deer off.

Her belief was so strong that she got others to join her in the efforts of killing off the deer to control the fecal bacteria. I remember when at least three very well respected professionals in the field of wastewater tried to talk some logic into her reasoning but she remained firm. The deer had to go. Fortunately enough folks who knew better kept the balance and the deer are still safe today.

Unfortunately, I still run across an engineer or a geologist while out and about who still talks about the deer poop folk lore. They are the true believers ready to eliminate those pile pooping deer.

As far as the "x" factor is concerned, I think it's like the story above. You can choose to follow the logic that only one chromosome is the main cause of ALL paso traits and the other 32 pairs of chromosomes cannot in any way contribute to ANY paso traits. I will congratulate you in being one of the true believers in the "x" factor folk lore.

OR you can choose the read the REAL story behind the "x" factor as told by Marianna Haun, which was borrowed and then completely spun into a tale so totally unrelated I still wonder how it was done. But then, I'm not a true believer. I ask for facts, evidence, records, and a touch of documented science first.

http://66.70.224.54/cart/underx.html

[motorgypsy]

Candice another story that once again proves how very dangerous "just a little knowledge" can be. That was indeed hilarious but also scary because frequently zealots are so sure of themselves they convince others to follow them in their mistaken beliefs to sometimes very tragic ends such as trials for witchcraft, exorcisms and just bad decisions in things like finance, finding the right spouse or the right job. I know women who have actually been convinced by friends to marry someone they didn't even like very well - and of course as expected it turned out very badly.

[The Professional]

frequently zealots are so sure of themselves they convince others to follow them in their mistaken beliefs to sometimes very tragic ends such as trials for witchcraft, exorcisms and just bad decisions in things like finance, finding the right spouse or the right job. turned out very badly.

I agree very much with your statement. Probably, that happens to weak-minded people, but it also happens to horse people when they have to train their horses and follow some wrong advise from some wannabe's and some monkey see monkey do attitude. Then, the results are seen in the horses' behavior and there are so many good horses turned sour in the training stage that hurts my heart just knowing so.

Candice, there's a lot of poop in that story :lmao but seriously, I enjoyed a lot and learned new stuff at the same time, so one can learn a lot from poop too. ;-) I'm serious! 8-) I for example, when deworming horses always check their feces to make sure nothing abnormal is happening to the horse intestines. Obviously I use a stick! :lol:

[hast]

[quote]<snip>
BTW "Skewbald" is an old term for pinto with a white head..or tan head as the horse you posted has...still a pinto...just not "white"...

Colors are classified in different terms in Europe, there skewbald is a "brown" and white horse, and Piebald is a black and white horse.

[Cindy]

Candice another story that once again proves how very dangerous "just a little knowledge" can be. That was indeed hilarious but also scary because frequently zealots are so sure of themselves they convince others to follow them in their mistaken beliefs to sometimes very tragic ends such as trials for witchcraft, exorcisms and just bad decisions in things like finance, finding the right spouse or the right job

Yeah, look at Al Gore. :rofl

[Terry Wallace]

Hast you are correct...and I had forgotten about this...but depending on where you pull the definition from....a "piebald" is a black & white pinto and a "skewbald" is a pinto of chestnut, palomino, buckskin..anything other than black & white.....

Thanks for the correction.

You know how they always referred to the horse in the movie National Velvet as "The Pie"? That was because in the book..he was a black & white pinto... too bad that the horse chosen to play "The Pie" was a chestnut! When I was a little kid, my mom bought me a coloring book of National Velvet..and the horse in that was a pinto for sure!
No wonder I like pintos so much!

[hast]

Hast you are correct...and I had forgotten about this...but depending on where you pull the definition from....a "piebald" is a black & white pinto and a "skewbald" is a pinto of chestnut, palomino, buckskin..anything other than black & white.....
<snip>

That's correct... and other colors are classifed different too... it get's really confusing at times. LOL

[Candice Burger]

Yeah, look at Al Gore.

Hey he's getting an Oscar nomination for that! :roll:

My coworker ended up winning one of our highly esteemed agency awards with money for her efforts!

Haun has garnered allot of attention from her two books, but her thoughts on the "x" factor are not original and were actually forumulated by an earlier investigator back in the 1950's I think. What is fascinating is this time some real science went into the effort. If she had focused on some other horse rather than Secretariat I question how much attention it would have gotten. Everybody wanted Secretariat to be "the one" in breeding the next racing champions of the world, but he didn't; everyone wanted his sons to be the next dynasty.

I do believe there is some sort of "female" influence that we've yet to define. The mitrochondria DNA for example, which can only be inherited from the female and the influence of the womb and how that interacts with development of the foal. Cloned animals still do not have the same immunology as an animal that was conceived naturally. They die sooner and are usually prey to all types of diseases. The fact that something triggers an expression to turn "on" or "off"---the reason why inherited dominant traits are not always 100%. The fact that hormones play a large part in some of this and hormones are dictated by sex of a species. Lots to think about.

[Cindy]

Hey he's getting an Oscar nomination for that!


And a win. :roll: :lol: Suprise, suprise.

[Candice Burger]

I couldn't watch. It was asking too much.

[motorgypsy]

Well there has definitely been more of him to watch lately as in more surface area. I've always said that if he'd lost that totally dorkly slicked down Brill cream hair style and worn his curly cute college hair style ( a little viagra - ooops I mean vigaro - wiat a minute - how about rogaine - would have killed the bald spot ) he would have won the presidency - wait a minute - but then he did - sortof - win - sortof??? Oh yeah - old news old news!

[Cindy]

Oh get over it. He lost. :roll:

[motorgypsy]

Well he didn't become president that's for sure - but it made a "bigger man" of him - you'll have to agree!!!