Training a PPR with Classical Dressage Methods

[Candice Burger]

I was sent a few pictures from Bill, who is trained in classical dressage riding. He has already trained one paso using dressage and is now working with another young stallion, Legalos. Legalos is a PPR near 16 hands, American bred with VERY old bloodlines hardly seen anymore.

Bill and I have briefly corresponded discussing several approaches that are from classical riding. When I saw these pics, I was thrilled with the results Bill is getting with Legalos.

Here's the pics and I've invited Bill to APF to discuss Legalos and his training here. I hope he will join us soon and share his knowledge.

First Pic: Now here's something I hardly see. A well set head, TRUE lightness in the reins, back rounded, pelvis beneath the horse in gait. Collection at it's best

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/mararichi/Legolasfinosmall.jpg




Here's Legalos performing a shoulder in

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/mararichi/Legalosshoulderin.jpg




And the piaffe!!! Bill was explaining to me how he accomplished the piaffe from a walk. I hope he will take the time to bring his knowledge here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/mararichi/Legalospiaffesmall.jpg

[Brigitte]

First if all 16 hands?? WOW. I'd love to see a video of the horse! Souns like something really cool to me

[Carol Nelson]

Looks like an Andelusian! I would love to see a video too!

[Jasfino]

Thanks for posting! :D

[The Professional]

Candice, I'm thrilled with the pics! I use several dressage principles on pprs and the tecniques are always working for the good of the horse.
Hope Bill comes around soon, it will be good to have someone explaining in details these principles.

In your first pic, I saw a double rein on what it looks like a "El Maestro" bit; but with no bosal. That means, that if the horse has not opened his mouth... then, he is used to the bit, "bien enbocado", on the bit.
Do you know how old is the horse?

[The Professional]

I use a Pelgam bit with double reins, like a snaffle bit. El maestro bit has a port and causes the level (crank) effect. The carrying position of the head of that beauty, has significantly called my attention, due to the fact that the head is almost the same size of the neck and with these proportions or fenotype, no maestro bit or any other bit could possibly set the head like that. That horse is very well-trained. Some trainers think that the bit will set the horses' head. But the pole is the key, not the mouth. I enjoyed having seen these pics!

[Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire]

Very cool! I hope Bill joins us also. And video is going to be a must. 8-)

[PasoPerson38]

Beautiful!
I love the piaffe picture! Pasos in general should be good at piaffe, since most are bred to fino, and a correct fino is ultimate collection such as piaffe.

[Centauress]

I love these images you posted. I have always enjoyed using dressage movements when working my paso as well...

[cowboy ed]

the picture shows that this horse can do a lovely trot!

[Pinto Paso]

While a snap shot may appear to be a trot it is much much more.. Since classical dressage is not geared towards gaited horses it should not surprise us to see this movement - the surprise is how well this PF is doing it if infact it is in place or close to it

definition

The piaffe was originally used in battle to keep the horse focussed, warm, and moving, ready to move forward into battle. In modern times the piaffe is mostly taught as an upper level movement in Classical dressage and as a Grand Prix level movement.

The piaffe, unlike other trot movements, does not have a moment of suspension. Rather, the first diagonal pair of legs touch the ground before the second begin to rise.

[sporthorse]

truely impressive manuveurs, high school /Haute Ecol(sp) riding and training/that makes thee appx.16hh paso finos I have heard of. Two PPR and one Cremello in Vermont.
Please post that horses full name or spelling, or the sire and dams (if your colt is not in paso registry) so I can look at his pedigree if possible.

[Legolas]

Hello , I am Finnaly able to get on the site,I am William Sanders the owner and trainer of the horse Legolas (also my site name ) that Candace has posted . He is a four year old (five in May ) pure Puerto Rican Stallion. As Candace said he is very large , approaching 16 hands (about 15-3 when I got him and he has grown a bit and most likely will do so for a while ) . I will try to answer a few questions at the start and then more as you wish . I have trained him the classical progresion in the same manner I train my lusitanos (see www.baroqueequitation for more pics of various horses ) I have been training with my Current tracher Master Luis Valenca in Portugal for the last nine years and before that with the French Master Jean Claude Racinet. I try to arrive with a horse as lite in the hands as possible , but with the Rasembler (balance of the entire horse ) , which of course allows the horse to be lite . This is a progresion that is done from the start with a horse . in the pictures , yes in one picture he has arrived at a rather nice diagonal Piaffe . This Piaffe was not the goal of what I was doing however but a means to the end . We have a movement called the counted or diagonal walk . As horse walks normally in the lateral way (all of them ) it is not usual for a horse to walk diagonal. The way to ask for this is not easy to ecplain without seeing it but basically you shorten the walk until the horse is alost walking on the spot , durring the process the horses withers raise , the neck comes up , the back rounds andnthe pelvis tipes The two prime things being the raising of the withers AND the tipping under of the pelvis . Also when done correctly the horse goes on the bit in self carriage. One then practices the giving and taking of the reins until the desent of the hand is possible . Some times in this exercise you arrive at the true Piaffe and this can also be used , if done correctly to begain that air. Here Legolas took to it very well because of the balance he obtained and produced a very nice correct Piaffe in the desnet of the hands . However the real purpose then was to move him forward , still maintiaining the desent of the hand , the Rasembler into his true lateral gait which you can see he has done . The true message here is not he has done a nice trot but he has done a spectacular four beat Fino in the desent of the hands with out the typical hollow back i see way to often. These horses do NOT need a hollow back to gait and in fact makes things worse . In shortening the base of the horse and giving him the balance , even a horse of this size can all of a sudden do Fino , proving you dont need a 14 hand horse to that I dont hink is made any longer . This bit has a port the tounge goes through and does not move so the horse can relaxe in the bit . He was ridden from the upper portion at first (like the snaffel type ring on a pelleham) In the very first he wore a cavasan like in the normal training . The ramener ( lateral position of the head with the poll at the highest has been obtained through collection and not force as was so correctly pointed out by the Profesional , the key is to look at the rounded back and pelvis to see the total equation. He has also been started in his lateral work as we do with all of the horses . He knows now shoulder in , travers, half pass . Some he his is better at than others , the shoulder in at the gait is now commng very well . Thes a Paso can also do with no problem if trained correclty and they offer the same advantages they do to the other horses as far as strength and gymnastic qaulities . I have heard they cant do them etc etc which is nonsense. I have 22 year old that does Piaffe , Passage , Spanish walk , Capriole, levade , etc . By the way his Piaffe and Passage are lateral and in four beat !! William

[Centauress]

Welcome William! I just looked at your website. I adore the "haute ecole" movements and the fact that you're training pasos to do them correctly! Kudos to you! ;-)

[Cindy]

Welcome, William. Grat post. Good info.

[Legolas]

Thank you Centauress. all of the moves of the Haute Ecole are great as long as they are built from the ground up and not the roof down like tricks . After legolas is ready I will start him first in Spanish walk for freedom of the shoulders. Maybe also to the reverse if he can do it . I have my other Paso and my Trot and gallop who can. EventuallyI will have a video of his training progresion. Bill

[Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire]

http://bestsmileys.com/welcome/7.gif
Glad you finally got your browser issues straightend out William. Sounds like you will be a valuable asset to our group here. 8-)

[c watson]

Welcome William

I own a PPR mare who is by Legalos' half brother Danzarino EL (frosty acres) Her resemblence to Legalos is quite strong and she is a solid mare as well. Strong phenotype!

I cannot figure out how to post photos on this forum, but you can see her on my "mares" page of our farm website
http:www.frazierbrookfarm.com

Danzarino's Desear

Congratulations on the classical work you are doing.

[Legolas]

Thanks , I will take a look at her. This horse will be fun to do demos with when I am through with a lot of his work . i think if there is more interest in the Paso andn the classical moves and work it can bring a new dimension ot the breed as well as the understanding of ways to train them . everyday he gets better .

[CarolU]

Interesting to read your posts here...I have a friend here (in Utah) who is doing Classical Dressage with her Paso Finos. She mentioned you and Legolas. She sent me to YouTube for some education on the difference between classical dressage and the currently popular KUR method. It was a good lesson.

Hats off to you, and welcome to the BB!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB-27upuUVY

And when you get a minute...we'd LOVE your videos of Legolas AND your TyG horse!!

[Legolas]

Thanks , and yes we have nothing to do with the current methods ,like you speak of . The videos are a project for me and eventually I will offer one I hope called the Baroque training of the Paso Fino Horse . I also offer classes on classical riding on both my Lusitanos and my trained Paso Fino. Diego Bravo has a new large book comming out next month on the Paso Fino as well as the trot and Gallop and in it is a nice picture of me doing a Passage on my Trot and Gallop Electron . I hope more get interested in this type of training and riding . I did some demos years ago at some of the Paso Shows and got a very enthusiastic response from the crowd but not so nice a reception from some of the trainers ( to many of their clients asked them how to do it on their horses ) and even the Paso Fino Association was getting nervous . I was supposed to have gone to the nationals to do a demo their , but was pre-empted as they said some nascar race car driver would be their to sign autgraphs and of course that was way more important than letting people at a horse show see classical horsemanship !!!!!!! That is when I stopped doing demos for the Paso Fino Horse Association , but maybe things are different now and also the Puerto Rican Paso Fino Association seems much more interested in classical riding , training etc . These horses are much more beautiful when ridden the classical way to me anyway . Bill

[CarolU]

A race car driver?? Hmmmm :confused

Yes, well I can see the problems, but don't need a new can of worms this week (it has stopped raining).

So...back to dressage. It seems to me that there are now people all over the country doing gaited dressage with different competitions...but it is not centrally organized nor are there specific rules for Paso Finos. I know the gaited dressage in FOSH is geared more for TWH horses. It might not be a bad idea for all of you who ride dressage to come up with something organized, and it sounds to me like it should be the Classical Dressage training methods and likewise judging criteria.

I'll be interested in getting the Diego Bravo book when it comes out. Could you make sure to post information here on buying it?

[Centauress]

That is such a shame William, that some people can't appreciate the haute ecole done by a paso fino. You would think that they would WANT to show the paso fino doing more than going around the ring in circles. I wish you were close to me. I would love to send Centauro (my stallion) to learn what I like to call "horse ballet". ;-)

For me there is nothing more beautiful than to see a horse execute these movements. It's is like watching a piece of artwork come to life.

[Legolas]

Please see www.everythingpasofino.com for the add on Diego's new book. I have not seen it yet but it looks very good. As for competitions a fear I have little interest . my joy in riding is soley for the art and feeling and meditation it gives me and for the good of the horses . A free style thing where one was judged on overall feeling and performance might be ok as long as people made the horses come first and winning second and thier in lies the problem . Bill.

[CarolU]

Very well said Bill.

Perhaps we should instead do Paso Fino exhibitions...take the competition out of it, and just show off beautifully trained horses for the sheer joy of it. Maybe then the horses would come first. :-)

I can see why my friend thinks so highly of you.

[Centauress]

".... As for competitions a fear I have little interest . my joy in riding is soley for the art and feeling and meditation it gives me and for the good of the horses . A free style thing where one was judged on overall feeling and performance might be ok as long as people made the horses come first and winning second and thier in lies the problem....."

Bill - you rock! :not worthy

[Centauress]

He just emailed me a picture of Electron - his Trote/Galope... :shock:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m120/centauress/Electron.jpg

[CarolU]

WOW!!!!

He's gorgeous!!!!

Ok...now I can't WAIT for the video!!!!

[The Professional]

I did some demos years ago at some of the Paso Shows and got a very enthusiastic response from the crowd but not so nice a reception from some of the trainers ( to many of their clients asked them how to do it on their horses ) and even the Paso Fino Association was getting nervous . I was supposed to have gone to the nationals to do a demo their , but was pre-empted as they said some nascar race car driver would be their to sign autgraphs and of course that was way more important than letting people at a horse show see classical horsemanship !!!!!!!

That is when I stopped doing demos for the Paso Fino Horse Association , but maybe things are different now and also the Puerto Rican Paso Fino Association seems much more interested in classical riding , training etc . These horses are much more beautiful when ridden the classical way to me anyway . Bill

Hello Bill, I also wanted to welcome you to the forum.

I was eager to read your comments regarding the dressage tecniques for paso finos. I perfectly understand what you mean when you say paso trainers are reluctant to try some dressage tecniques with their horses. The the same thing happened to me but the owners appreciate it when they see the progress on their horses. I also use some australian tecniques that works real good on young colts. My point is that its a good investment if one can learn different tecniques and use the best of each one to bring out the best of each horse. Unfortunately, not all trainers think the same way and they limit themselves and their horses to what they know, their "own litle book" and never go out of it.

So, for me, for example its very important the way a horse carries his head. Head position, is very important to acheive a perfect balance with the rest of the body. It's impossible for a horse to walk or in this case...paso, if his head isn't well positioned. I'll personaly appreciate it if you can give us some tips on how to help the horses to acheive a perfect head set using dressage tecniques. Thanks in advance, looking foward to read more of this art.

Cordially,
The Porfessional

[Brigitte]

WOW!! I love your Trote and Galope horse. He looks amazing! :shock:

[Legolas]

Thanks to all who appreciate the photo's. Also thank you to the profesional for the comments . As for the headset It depends on what one is after . To me their is only one correct over all picture that I look for . True each piece has it components . BUT if we try and use one or twoof the pieces and dont operate on the entire body of the horse somthing will not be right . As an example the position of hte head , the Ramener, the head on the vertical is part of the equation , it can be obtained of course by pulling the head in using certain bits that help etc and YES Paso can and do gait this way EVEN WITH A TERRIBLY HOLLOWED BACK !!!! As a matter of fact MOST I see and in pictures are ridden without the back rounding They are engaged but not collected , which must contain the droped and tilted pelvis . In fact , when I gave demos one of the things the trainers would say to me was, GEE I THOUGHT THEY NEEDED THE BACK DOWN TO GAIT !!! i have also read that statment in a publication in the past. Of course it is not true . I also heard Pso cant do lateral work which is also not true , and it is as good for them as any other horse . Legolas gave the best even shoulder in in gait the other day I have ever seen a Paso do, even great cadence , perfect bend and lite as a feather . Beyond being not true if one goes about thinking that part of the horse can be left that way ( the back down ), riding on the desent of the hand becomes allmost impossible . There is an over all sequence that must occur then . The withers of the horse must be raised along with the neck, the back must round , and the pelvis must tip under , not for engagement but for collection (which are two completly different things ) Once the horse shortens the base by tipping under the pelvis andn he rounds up his back (the withers must rise for that hence the neck comes up ) the Ramener just happens by itself , the horse drops and sets the head , NOW he is in Rasembler or perfect balance and the rein contact is not needed and can be dropped for moments while the horse is on parole so to speak to maintain the last gait he was asked to perfom while the rider sits still and allows it to occur . How to do this is not the subject of an email response BUT I can tell you that ONE way to work on it is through the counted walk , a very very tiny slow walk (not gait ) that the horse starts to diagonalize , then the neck comes up , the back rounds andn the pelvis drops . Rein contact is allso seen as not much needed. The slowing of the horse is accomplished by the back of the rider , not the hands, they are fixed and low . oce he marches forward in these baby steps and you feel he is collectd and lite in the hands you allow him to move forward in gait. You now have a shortened base so even a larger horse can perfom a faster foot fall . Since you are creating the length of the footfall through horsmanship , you can also now legthen that gait should you choose . So a horse trained like that can be Fino Corto or Largo as one wants . These things need to be taught in person and best on a horse that can do them for the feel . I am sorry if this is sounding to technical but it is what one must do IF you want the perfect results of classical riding for the good of the horse . Keep in mind what I am describing is the Portugese-French classical school . I have no interest in using the more competititve dressage modern methods requiring much more driving pulling and pushing on my horses no matter what the breed . I am only interested in the horse being very lite in the hands and allways in the collected frame of mind so he can do what I want in balance and lightnes, not in some far off distant time but from the start of the training .

[JennLM]

Hubba hubba hubba *wolf whistle* @ Electron

[CarolU]

Wow Bill, you certainly know how to open a can of worms!

I was studying natural collection this winter and was surprised to find out that the definition of "braciness" was pretty much exactly what PF trainers call "collection." The horse is pushed from behind up onto the bit, the head is kept up and the horse is braced between hands, legs, and bit, BUT the stride is shortened. And of course THAT really is the point with what the bracing is to shorten the stride. Although I will say that it seems to me that SOME trainers strive for self-carriage of the horse and a more real collection that is not pushed, and I've learned from one how to use shoulder ins to help supple and get gait. I'm pretty excited about this riding season and working more on this.

I am glad you are here to discuss this. When I found this out, I was pretty surprised and decided to give up show training, since it is contrary to other training (natural) that I'm doing with my horses. There are too many battles around here to take on true collection, as it is not my area of expertise (I'm working on it, though!)...but I'm so glad it is yours! And you're here to talk about it.

Your presence on the BB will be very educational.

[Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire]

I'm drooling over Electron over there. :love

[Legolas]

Here is really what I hope. I hope more people will explore using the classical ways to obtain collection and will have great results. Then they will start to show some horses , even demo them using these methods . Faced with what they see , if they see enough of it or people start asking for more of it , more and more trainers will start to use the same methods and the horses and training and riding will improve. I say riding also because a horse trained to the lightnes of the aids must also be ridden that way . . William

[CarolU]

Well...maybe with all of us talking about it, it will open some eyes and people will start to embrace it. It's been discussed before...but the problem is always TIME. People want instant results and instant Champions. I find few are willing to take the time to use the classical methods to get there.

I am already signed up for a Classical dressage clinic here next month. I have one horse that seems to have a very natural carriage for it, and I think would do well at it. I know I can only benefit by learning more, and more, and more.

[JennLM]

Is this the same as Baroque Classical style?

Kenn (that we got TJ from) suggested this kind of training for TJ for his next step. I find it very interesting. He said there is someone down in Cali putting together a video on how to apply the Baroque Style of training with the Pure Puerto Rican Paso Finos, not only getting all the basics, but how to maintain & develop phenomenal gait characteristics.

We have a Dressage group that just formed so I'll need to look into it. I almost went but chickened out thinking they would look at me and laugh their butts off.

[Legolas]

Hi Corazon, yes Ken was speaking of me . I offer classes in classical riding for the Paso Finoin Ca and so I would do anything but laugh. BUT you must prepare yourself as if you go to a regular competitive drerssage clinic then it may or may not be the greatest experience . some want only a certain type of horse ,one that can win approval in the eyes of the judges , or they may want you to get your horse to trot. I would not advice anything like that .Or even if not many of the modern day competitve methods are not my cup of tee for lightnes. These horses can do their gaits in a lite beautiful way if allowed. Yes it takes some time but to me in the end it is worth it. Now I can tell you I got my Paso you saw the pictures of less than one year ago and he was just broke to ride , barely . so he was a young horse that was all strung out , paced , troted and gaited. In less than a year I have a horse that is developing extremely well and that is not a long time to me . If you asked me a guese I would say another two years max , maybe one to get him where I want all the time with all of the lateral gaits down well . But really I dont care how long it takes . Bill

[dcancel]

update on Legolas from William Sanders.
The work in hand , where it all starts . More people should get interested in riding their Paso Fino's in the Baroque Manner . It is a way to really have more fun , get the horse stronger and more supple and light in the hands . I would like to see this developed. I am available for clinics to teach the basics and get you started , work in hand , Jaw flexions ,lateral moves and much more . William Sanders [email protected] . 951 738 1433 . Thank you

[dcancel]

more pics

[CarolU]

How cool is that? Thank you for the update!! He looks awesome.

[Heart of Gold]

Ok guys...who is interested in a 2-day clinic??????

Nothing in stone...I'm just throwing it out there to see if we would have valid interest. I absolutely love what I see and I for one would LOVE to participate. If we have the interest AND commitment I would like to see this clinic take place. I think this is exactly the kind of training, exposure and education that this breed (and the general horse public) NEED!

Location - Western PA
Date - suggestions?
Fee - $100/day/per horse - min 5 horses/max 6
Audit Fee (est) --- $20/$30 day.

[pprpaso3]

Where exactly are you thinking of having the clinic? Who will be the instructor?

I would definately be interested if it is after July 1st. We will be coming up to PA then and renting our old barn.

[Heart of Gold]

Bill is willing to do the clinic for us. We (the hosting party) would have to provide his airfare, hotel and meal expenses. Again, nothing in stone...but the NAPPRPFO is looking into the possibility of hosting this event, but we would need to have enough participation to make it possible.

**We need a minimum of 5 horses for the clinic - max 6.

- I will commit to one spot so we need 4-5 more horses for his clinic fee
- $100/day (2 day event) so total cost for bringing your horse = $200
(unless there is any additional stall/cleaning/misc fees associated with the facility)

This is a REAL DEAL! Average lesson price is $30-$50/hr for average instruction. Dressage lessons are easily $100+/hr. This is a chance to gain some true insight to classic horsmanship at a very reasonable price!

Auditors - we need a minimum of 30 people!

If we get this approved, we will need to have sign ups and deposits in advance.

[cristy]

Hi William, I have heard alot about you and your work with Legs. I am really happy he is doing so well for you. You are making Jim proud. I hope you guys work out a clinic in PA, I will definately be there but can't comitt to bringing a horse (sorry Mandy).

[Heart of Gold]

So, 1...maybe 2 people are interested?

[Soltera]

Were it w/i 100 miles, I'd be there in a heartbeat! The in-hand work is especially interesting...