Am I being too impatient? [Archive] - American Paso Finos.com Forums

Helene

03-12-2007, 12:55 PM

As mentioned before, my colt is being worked with since last Thursday. That day, the guy worked with him for two hours.... The horse dripping with sweat from being told" to move his feet" every time he nipped at the man. No...this man is not being abusive. He is very patient (more than I). The horse does the running himself. I think he is playing with the man.
Anyhow....another hour on Friday, same stuff. Man now...works with him in shorter sessions of about 2-3 30 minute increments on Saturday and Sunday....To me, I have not seen ANY progress.....Horse still runs around. Man can put his hand on the horse's head, but no further....
NOW....I used to halter this colt. He is not totally wild. I have led him, bathed him, had feet trimmed, tied, etc. I don't want to interfere with any training, but I am getting afraid that I won't be able to even halter him when I need to.....How much longer should I wait to expect results?....I am paying the man per month. This is not saddle training, just ground work....

cristy

03-12-2007, 01:08 PM

How old is your colt? Sometimes when you work with them and then leave them alone for a long time they regress a little but I would think what he is doing seems a little excessive. It sounds like if he is trying to teach him to stop nipping he has maybe missed the bus, there is a fine line between actually teaching them something and playing games, sounds like he is focusing too much on trying to "teach him not to nip" and not enough on ground work as a whole. JMO I tend to just ignore the nipping unless it is really bad. Especially in young colts they are just looking for some kind of back and forth play.

cowboy ed

03-12-2007, 01:12 PM

from what you describe, he must be free lunging the horse, trying to do some sort of join up routine? there are lots of ways to do ground training, but i prefer to work the horse on a halter and leadline. i think you can make more progress in a much shorter period of time by working the horse on the leadline.

Helene

03-12-2007, 01:24 PM

Ed, you hit it on the nail! I was wondering about that. I offered him to put the halter on the colt (he couldn't) and he could work with him that way....until he could put the halter on himself. I, too, have had better and faster results once I have the foal on a lhalter and lead(lunge) line. I am working with a young filly now, have just 5 times, and she is so easy...been taking her for walks. I can reprimand her and immediately reward good behavior, too, without her being able to evade me. But then, this colt is much more difficult and I hired the guy because I thought he needed another handler besides me....I am no trainer..... I really think the colt (he is two) is playing with the guy. I am wondering whether I should have hired an older gelding?????

cristy

03-12-2007, 01:33 PM

I use the monty roberts theories to an extent and have learned that they work well with adult horses but it seems like young horses lose focus too quickly and it just is not effective on them (learned this the hard way) I tried it on my babies last year as yearlings and could not get join up, thinking I was just doing something wrong I asked a trainer friend of mine and she said she had the same problem with the young ones. I decided to just lay off that and stick to general handling and rope work until they officially start training at 3 1/2.

TrueStepPaso

03-12-2007, 02:38 PM

I dunno....sometimes it does take more patience with other horses, and then one day....it just "clicks". I understand the rope halter and lead line bit, and I agree with it for most horses....but I also think that really moving a horse out while you're calmly standing in the center of his "universe", says alot to the horse as well. If he doesn't respect you (meaning, this guy) enough to come close to you while free (and of his OWN choice) then you may be setting yourself up for failure on a leadline because he probably won't fully respect yeilding to pressure.

In my opinion, a well rounded horse should respect you on both levels.

Boyd R

03-12-2007, 02:54 PM

Talk with the trainer or just give him time as he sees fit. He surely has his way of doing things so don't interfere.
I have had two horses here that I never got to join up free lunging, It will never happen in my opinion. Not to say someone else can. But as soon as the halter and lead are on I never have to touch them or the lead to proceed.
But most of all let him do it his way if he does not suceed then deal with him directly and find someone new

Cindy

03-12-2007, 04:00 PM

The freelonging/join up thing does NOT work with Paso Finos until they already have some ground work. They do not tire and will not give up. 2 hours is also WAAYY too long to be doing ground work with a two year old. Daily sessions should not exceed about 30 minutes of actual work time. This horse needs to be worked with a halter right now and should be learning to give to pressure, follow, move away, bend properly, etc. All with the halter. Once he knows how to do these things with the halter he can go on to liberty work.

CarolU

03-12-2007, 04:15 PM

Helene, is he working the colt or just letting him run? I find if I WORK them, drive at the hips, they come around a lot faster then just letting them run. About the longest this has taken is 45 minutes, and that is with a horse that was 'wild' when it got here.

I have had the "Catch Me" exercise take 4 hours with one horse...but that horse never needed the exercise again. That horse also had a 10-year history of not being caught.

It's unusual for a young horse that has been handled a lot to be difficult, but if he's just lettin him gait around at liberty, he might gait a LONG, LONG time.

LynnG

03-12-2007, 04:34 PM

I have found some more nervous type Pasos will just run and run in a roundpen ... not paying attention but trying to get away. In this case, I like to have the horse on a line, do shorter line pole work to be sure you have control of the "runaway" horse to get control of the horse forward direction and speed-wise. Then leading exercise and longer lounging line work for responsiveness ... same for direction and speed with the horse "listening" focusing to you with your body language and verbal cues.

TrueStepPaso

03-12-2007, 04:45 PM

Now I'm assuming that this man knows how work a horse properly in the roundpen....knowing the signs a horse is giving him, how to communicate with the horse to his advantage. But I definetely agree that the horse should never be worked hard for that long, especially on a circle. The "two hour" thing happened once, so I'm sure he's fine, but I'd make sure it doesn't happen again.

Now, I have a question for Cindy.....with the Pasos being more sensitive & more likely to not "calm down" in a round pen...I see how you would start with the leadline work first, and establish some sort of bond/communication with the young ones before moving to roundpen work. However, I am curious (honestly, just curious :lol: ) to know what your thoughts are on feral horses that are introduced first to the roundpen techniques in order to even allow haltering. Or, how (for example) Monty Roberts chased, on horseback, Shy Boy (a wild mustang chosen from a herd) until he was mentally & physically exhausted, and he "joined up" in the wild...and then they literally saddled & rode him back to Monty's ranch....
I know that these aren't Pasos, but horses all work the same psychologically. Were there ever times, in your career, that called for roundpen work before haltering?

Thanks! :D

Helene

03-12-2007, 04:53 PM

Yes, Cindy, I thought 2 hours (and I did look at my watch) was waaaay too long, in my opinion, too, for a two year old. But he didn't get anywhere, even in that time, the colt yawed a lot, put his head down, etc, but he still took off whenever the guy tried to touch him. He didn't get to touch him past his face. Couldn't step to either side to put a halter on him, before the colt took off.
And that colt isn't shy! He comes right up to me (and him), follows us around, but does not like to be touched when not on a halter.
I have always worked him on a halter, so I could correct and reward him faster, because when he is free, all I do is chase him away without having real control when to stop and he seems to get upset. I have raised several foals and have always started them with halter and lungeline, then moved onto the free stuff. It has worked for me. I have found (maybe I am wrong) that if you leave them be, they would just move off if you and not come back.
I am just wondering how much longer should I let this fellow work with him before I stop it and take him somewhere else. Maybe he is making progress and I just don't see it???? But after....I'd say, all in all about 4 days and 5 hours, wouldn't you think he should be able to touch the horse without it taking off? The man didn't take my suggestion to put a halter on, easily. I just backed off and am trying to be quiet.

Pinto Paso

03-12-2007, 05:09 PM

YAY Cindy - I agree, Paso Finos just dont "give" to free roundpenning unless they have been handled!!! I now worship you.

I find them to be to independent (thinking) while not attached to the handler. It is like they make their choice (of not being caught or touched) and are willing to work like &*#@ to protect that decision. And then on top of that they are smart - as in "I am over here, you are over there and I can run faster than you"

Have you ever wondered if they are thinking "look how long I can make this human try to catch me - do you think it's safe to work them this hard?"

I would ask the trainer to try a happy medium, roungpenning with the halter on - try it the trainers way for a while, then if he cant get the horse's focus work him on a line - atleast if the halter is on you can stop the session long before the 2 hour mark, and try to end it in a reasonable amount of time on a good note.

CarolU

03-12-2007, 05:34 PM

One of the principles of round pen training works on the premise that horses are lazy. The problem with this is that it isn't true of many Paso Finos, so they aren't going to 'give up' and come in just by making them gait in circles. This is what they WANT to do, move their feet. You have to get them just a little out of their comfort zone and then watch carefully for a sign of questioning you. THEN you give them space and let that be the first release or reward.

Pasofinoguy

03-12-2007, 05:46 PM

yeh he is wasting your time and money. You should send this horse to watertown sd.

Cindy

03-12-2007, 06:53 PM

Helene, it's really hard to say timewise on a horse that I do not know and have never worked with. Some take longer than others. All I can tell you is what I personally do with the horses that I train. If I have a horse that is a problem to halter, I work on this problem in the stall, a more confined area, until the horse is easy to halter. I would never take the halter off out side the confined area until the horse is accepting of being haltered in the more controlled environment. So with this paritucalr horse I would halter him in his stall, work him in the round pen with the halter and then unhalter him back in the stall. When I put the horse back in the stall I may take the halter on and off a few times beofre releasing him. It has been my experience that doing this in the larger area simply teaches the horse how to get away from being haltered. Once the horse is no longer a problem to halter in the stall and has already learned how to do the ground work with minimal reinforcement from the leadline, he can then be worked at liberty if desired.

Truestep, I would not use the round pen to teach any horse to be haltered. As I explained to Helene, I would do this in the stall. As far as Monty chasing that poor horse for three days and then we are supposed to be amazed that, not Monty but someone else, could saddle the horse and ride it, I found that to be abusive and it was very hard for me to watch and there was much loudness and expletives that I cannot write on this forum when I was watching the program. Hope that answered your question.

Pinto, :D Love ya.

britzlove

03-12-2007, 07:22 PM

Helene...I agree with what Cindy and Pinto say about round penning pasos...I also think it matters per horse.
I second or third or whatever the opinion that a change may be called for.
I work all my horses a few minutes everyday on the ground, and several of them get mini lessons 5-10 mins if there's something they are still working on to be fluid. I cannot imagine what is going on in this situation or what the point was..but I wouldn't feel bad about questioning it or him the man.

I think you have every right to expect the best for your horse when you get him with a trainer and not every trainer is right for every horse or horse for trainer. I would be suspicious as well I think it's an excessively long time.

I'm not debating round penning, though I agree I think it especially doesn't work for pasos, but I'm saying that the concern, like others mentioned is working with a young un that long.

Britz

Terry Wallace

03-12-2007, 07:29 PM

Helene... lets get a halter on him Sunday and get a HANDLE on him.
Running a two year old round & round "willy-nilly" with absolutely no control (no halter or longe line) won't accomplish much.

It would be MUCH better to work him on the longe, and only at a walk or corto..with someone in control. He won't ever learn anything except to
"outrun the human" and it will make him even more difficult to catch.

Free-longing after one or two attempts is soon an exercise in futility.
I sure would not let that guy continue with the free longing...its gets nothing accomplished...and that colt is way to smart and has too much attitude to be out of control on a free longe...JMO

PasoVicki

03-12-2007, 08:09 PM

Helene --
I'm not a horse trainer, but my first thought on reading your post was "Wow, two hours, that's a heck of a long training session for a two year old."
I'd take Terry up on her offer to help you. The last thing you want is a two year old who has learned, from the trainer, how to avoid being haltered.
Vicki

CarolU

03-12-2007, 09:21 PM

Have you ever wondered if they are thinking "look how long I can make this human try to catch me - do you think it's safe to work them this hard?"

That may be the problem with how you are doing it. The idea is not to chase the horse to catch it, but to get the horse to come in and catch themselves. They DO have to make the choice to do so..and you are quite right, Paso Finos DO know when they are at liberty and that it is a CHOICE. But, you WORK them...not let them gait in circles and certainly DO NOT CHASE them, and they will decide to come in.

You do it right once, and you never have to chase your horse again. It knows what the choice is.

Pinto Paso

03-12-2007, 09:46 PM

LOL - I'm not doing it wrong because I dont do it. After watching the most famous round pen video and seeing the "editing"job (horse no halter, oops couple of frames with a blue halter - tada horse with with no halter) I pretty much took it with a grain of salt just as I have with all of the other glamor trainers. I really dont need to work my horses away from me to get them to come to me. Yes I use a round pen but as a place to work in a confined area. I talk to my horse and 85 - 90% of the time they come. They move off when I ask and come back again. I'm not saying it does not serve a purpose, I used it alot with QH & Paints. The Pasos I have seen put the human in a position that if they wanted to make the horse keep working then they had to move themselves otherwise the horse just stayed out of reach at the speed it wanted.

CarolU

03-12-2007, 10:33 PM

Well, I've never watched the Monty video, so have no idea how he does it or what kind of photo editing they did. I have seen both Parelli and Clinton Anderson train this, and I've seen this method work on Paso Finos, both when done by Jamie Drizin here at clinics, and I've used Parelli's method successfully whenever needed. We have two breeders here that sell range-raised foals. They've never been handled until the day they're sold, roped, loaded in a trailer and delivered! I've had a few of them, including the one featured in the article in PFHW I wrote on training them to be caught. 45 minutes from wild to putting its head in the halter. It does work.

I actually think it is harder to unteach a horse that knows it can run and not get caught, then to start with an untouched horse. When the horse thinks its the "You can't catch me" game, you have to work them hard and sometimes you have to get a little more creative about The Choice.

Pinto Paso

03-12-2007, 10:42 PM

It was actually John Lyons of roundpen reasoning fame...

CarolU

03-12-2007, 10:52 PM

Ok...I haven't watched his either. I don't use round pen "training" techniques other then for catching training. I use it later in training for Liberty, but that is after the horse knows everything on-line first.

Pinto Paso

03-12-2007, 11:00 PM

I believe he was the initial "made for commercial release" trainers

Terry Wallace

03-12-2007, 11:35 PM

That was four days with no progress...either the guy does not know how to round pen correctly...or he really does not know what he is doing.Don't get me wrong...I LIKE, use and have a round pen....but FOUR DAYS?

Nope..he is not communicatiing with the horse! I would most definitely "interfere".....That colt will make a game of this now and probably get pretty cranky over it pretty quick...

For me, round pen works fine for *most* Pasos, just like it does for BLM or QH's...its not the horse...its the handler! If you have no progress in 4 tries....its time to switch tactics....could it scream any louder that it is NOT working?
JMO..... ;-)

Pinto Paso

03-12-2007, 11:41 PM

That is one of the problems with trainers that only know ONE program... they dont understand why their program doesnt work, and worse they dont know what to do when it doesnt work... I would say he is stuck in a rut and not sure how to get out of it. Take something from everyone and implement what works for each horse each training session.

CarolU

03-12-2007, 11:49 PM

I have several years of John Lyons' magazines. I have learned a lot from him, but never bought his videos. I certainly agree with you about learning as much as you can from everyone...even if you only learn what NOT to do, it is still a mistake you don't have to make.

I agree Terry. It sounds like the colt is controlling the 'game.' Time to change the rules.

Helene

03-13-2007, 12:19 AM

Yes, I agree, Terry and Carol. That's why I posted the question....how long should I watch before interferring? The man has to change his tactics. I did it....when the weather was bad. I wouldn't let him eat until he wore his halter and he was quite obedient....
I just thought it would be good to have another person work with the colt aside from me.... He has only been handled by me for his two years and not much in the last few months.

motorgypsy

03-13-2007, 03:15 AM

Is this an experienced paso fino trainer???

I speak from personal experience with paso finos and the round pen - you'd better know the paso fino before you try it because all Chinook would ever do was gallop uncontrollably in the round pen until we tried round penning two buddy horses together. It worked great for two reasons - one was that I stopped over cuing which is a BIG problem with paso finos and the other was that her stress level went way down with the buddy horse in with her.

I have watched both Monty Roberts and John Lyons (good but yawn) in person and the videos but I found Willis Lamm's material on the internet (KBR ranch website) much better and more sensible and they work. I LOVE clicker training. It's soooo fast and they retain it so well.

I only use roundpen to teach moving from pressure, change direction, speed and gait at my cue or just to reinforce dominance. I doubt I ever work a horse in the round pen freely more than ten minutes max. My problem has always been that they want to join up too soon so I have to send them away just to make sure they understand that there are times they must leave.

I don't like Monty Robert's techniques at all by the way but there are some things he mentions like using the hand as a cat claw that do indeed work.

I probably would have interfered long before you have - but then I'm really really particular about who rides or trains any horse of ours since we tend to be attracted to to more sensitive types anyway.

Age is a big factor though. Our filly from hades has become the most friendly, relaxed youngster we have at nearly 3. Arwen went through the terrible threes breaking halters and leads and being a very bad girl and now at 5 she's really a sweet horse. He just may need a little more growing up or a different trainer.

TrueStepPaso

03-13-2007, 05:38 PM

Cindy, I agree...Monty's tactic was excessive, but it was trying to make a point. I guess it did. I felt sorry for the colt, but I felt worse for Monty's horses who weren't in as good of shape as the colt, Shy Boy....

Now, I understand that you don't use it for personal training preference reasons, and because the babies are already in the stall/pasture with their moms....which almost all "pre-haltering" situations start out like. But, I guess, I was asking about another kind of situation....let's say a three yr old, completely untouched, colt that a client drove in, loose in a stock trailer. This horse was never haltered, it has a rope around it's neck that they "lassoed" on, and it's strikes if you try to get anything near it's face.

In my opinion, I would think the best thing for this horse, would be to get it to a round pen, stat, and work it properly through horse "psychology"/proper round pen techniques until it gains respect & trust from you and, eventually, "joins up" with you. Then, you can easily halter the horse, and go to work on the leadline.

And, I just have to say, as a general statement to this thread, while I agree that Paso Finos are more sensitive horses than most breeds, they are still horses all the same. They are NO different from other horses psychologically, or physiologically.....so, a great horseperson would be able to break through to ANY horse, whether they were "familiar with the breed" or not (stereotypes or facts).

Terry Wallace

03-13-2007, 06:10 PM

I would disagree that the trainer has to be "an experienced Paso Fino Trainer".... he need to just be an experienced horse trainer... he is still "experimenting" at this point...does not have enough horse experience yet....or he would know to stop this approach.

The problem here is..the trainer is not READING the horse correctly....

It does not matter the breed of the horse....JMO ;-)

Cindy

03-13-2007, 06:23 PM

Truestep, I would put that horse in a stall. I do the same thing in the stall that you are tallking about doing in the round pen but it is a more controlled environment. The bigger the area, the less control. I use the round pen teqhnics IN the stall.

TrueStepPaso

03-13-2007, 08:13 PM

oh, okay....that makes sense, too. Thanks.

motorgypsy

03-14-2007, 01:44 AM

I totally agree one does not need to use a paso fino trainer on a paso fino. But it sounds as though this trainer is overcueing and over stimulating which an experienced and GOOD paso fino trainer would not do.

I was really just curious - not making any point about paso fino trainers one way or another. Some do overcue a bit when they are trying to bring up the "brio level". I watched one do it for daily at least a year with an Anfitrion del Conde son he was training. But this one didn't over do it because I rode the colt and he wasn't too psyched at all.

Regarding small space - we used to work Arwen around the big oak tree on a longe line at a distance of perhaps 8 max feet from the tree. Arwen is the daughter of our BIG alpha mare and had far too high an opinion of herself despite the fact that she loves people so that big oak tree was a real safety factor for me. It worked well with her and if she needed to throw a tantrum I was safe behind the tree. ;-) ;-) ;-)

Question for Cindy and anyone else who trains in a stall - have you even had one to train that you didn't feel safe with in the stall? A "fear kicker or biter" type for example?

Cindy

03-14-2007, 02:13 AM

I have not had one that I did not feel safe with in the stall that I would have felt any safer with anywhere else.

cowboy ed

03-14-2007, 03:20 AM

cindy,i do some of the initial training in a stall too, if that's what i need to do. if i have a horse that is difficult to catch, i will put him in the stall and we get it worked out. i usually do the initial work with the babies in a stall too. sometimes a small space is hard to beat. if i have to toss a loop on the horse to get my hands on him, then i can do it without any pulling or panic or bad stuff.

MG, if i had a horse in the stall that i was worried about being a kicker, i would take my stick with me, to make sure the horse faced me instead of turning "butt first". whack, whack! of course, i am lean, agile and darn near fearless, so it's easier for me.

as for that join up stuff and paso finos, yes it will work with most of them. i have used it before, with very good results, but you have to really understand how to do it, and how it works. there are some horses, though, regardless of the breed, that just dont seem to get it.

i used the join up method on a crazy little paso fino gelding a few years ago. well, he was crazy like a fox. anyway, that little sucker would run from you like nobody's business. i finally got tired of chasing him, so i decided to do the monty thing. it worked like a charm. after that, this little gelding would stay right at my elbow, go anywhere i went like he was on an invisible string. turned out to be a fantastic little horse.

Helene

03-14-2007, 05:03 AM

Thanks for the tips. I am learning a lot. I tried to suggest some of them to the fellow who is working with my colt. He doesn't want to listen and thinks his method is the right and only way and that it is working. It seems to -somewhat- , but VERY slowly. I watched him this morning and he was able to scratch the colt's face, upper neck, and chest. He still ran off at times, but wasn't chased off unless he would nip.
I like the man. He is a very nice, gentle, and patient person , but I think he is too inexperienced for this colt. I really hate to hurt his feelings....He, probably, will succeed eventually.....but it might take weeks and months...
Sooo, I will have someone else with more experience work with the colt, starting this week.
I have another colt, also a 2 year old, much easier-going temperament, that I might let him work with (if he isn't too angry with me) and try his method on.

motorgypsy

03-15-2007, 03:01 AM

Ed I use a plastic leaf rake (I shake it at the butt and it rattles - works great) to keep the butt away but wondered if I was the only one who had had a gut feeling that a particular horse was unsafe to be in a stall with. Turned out my instinct were right too because this same horse kicked someone else and did some major damage. Not an aggressive horse but very insecure and defensive. I always left this horse an escape route and never had a problem but just had the feeling the potential was there. I've worked with two others that gave me that same feeling. I believe in going with my instincts with horses.

Helene

03-15-2007, 06:36 AM

Today I let this fellow go. I didn't feel good about it, but felt that his method was just not working with this particular horse.
I tried to put the halter on the colt....no problem....then rubbed him on his neck, body, and rump.
Tomorrow, I have a lady come and work with us. We'll see if she works out...

CarolU

03-15-2007, 12:44 PM

I think you'll be happier with Petra....and get a lot of progress fast.

Ed, I have an expeierence like you. Got a colt that was raised with a hard-to-catch dam. They would trap them and then mandhandle him into the halter. He was very afraid of people. I spent a lot of time in the stall just gentling him and getting him used to people and got him where I could halter him in a stall fine. But, the second he was in a larger area, no way, he was VERY leery of being caught (couldn't really blame him). Finally got him in the round coral and used Parelli's Catching method on him (may be the same as Monty's, I'm not sure), but it's a lot like the method Jamie used here at his clinics. It took a long time with this colt, but I stayed at it until he would follow me AFTER I took the halter off and try to put his head back in it. I've never had any trouble with him since and he comes running when I open the gate. I think that is the 'trick' if there is one, you have to KNOW what you're doing, KNOW that you're going to be successful and stay with it until you are. Your body language of confidence is more critical to success then time.

Funny how horses are. Rosie saw Zar being difficult and thought she might try it. She did like two circles and figured out that she'd rather be inside with me eating cookies. Never had a hard time catching her again.

And, most 'pocket Pasos' you never have to do it period. They love the attention and to be worked with.

reuben T

03-16-2007, 04:27 AM

It took me so long, and going through so much material, to finally learn exactly how to use the RP properly and effectivly, it's not surprising to see plenty of even pro trainers who havn't really got a handle on it yet.
If done right, it works fine with foals and younguns, but even then don't expect consistant results, perhaps at least partually due to short attention span.
All horses have a genetically built in system of communication. First it takes an understanding of what it is and how it works, then it takes a developed sensativity to their "language" to be able to "hear" what they're "saying", than it takes a knowlege of how to display it ourselves and "talk" like a herd leader. When all that happens properly, it pushes the horse into making a decision, "am I going to become a follower of this herd leader or not?" or do I challenge their right to herd leadership? If not the horse will leave, but the restriction of a pen prevents that, so either challenging it, or becoming a follower of the herd leader that's "talking" to him is the only other choice avalible. Some horses decide quickly to become followers and never look back, but some will take time, and keep checking to make sure herd leader is going to maintain leadership strong enough. And occasionally one will agressivly challenge the right of the "talker" to become herd leader. That can take some skill to get through without backing down, and stay safe at the same time.
Two reasons for all those claimed cases where the "round pen method" didn't work. Either the trainer wasn't communicating effectivly, or the horse wasn't very skilled in horse talk. A domestic horse, especially one raised without a herd, can be a poor communicator, and therefore not respond as well as they're supposed to.
I've seen communication done two ways, one way more mental, the other more physical. When I watched a student of Monty's do it, he did it more on a mental level without as much physical moving around. But the paso mare I watched doing it with her foal did a much more physical communication, (more like Marv Walker teaches)
With some horses it'll be so easy it's almost like anybody could do it, but then with some there may be like a wall of resistance which might make it look like it won't work, that's where more skill is needed to know how to push the horse into making the right decision. (change technique a bit)
A big mistake too many trainers make is thinking they know how to train a horse and just about stop learning.
There's also a spiritual aspect to it that I've run into, something everyone seems blind to. Dealing with that properly can make a hard case much easier.
With the method Marv teaches, a horse can pe pushed into being caught easily, BUT, better not try it without knowing horse language quite well and being very careful. It's basicly picking a pecking order battle, and it can get dangerous real fast if ya push a bit too hard too soon.
And have to be sensative to the nature of each horse, some are so laid back ya have to practically shout with yer actions, bet then some are so sensative a move of the eyes or wiggle of the finger will get their attention.
Get a little too strong with the sensative one and they'll get nervous and not be listening to you.
Oh well!! I'm tryin to put it in words and it's not easy.

CarolU

03-16-2007, 01:20 PM

Oh well!! I'm tryin to put it in words and it's not easy.

Well Reuben, I think you did an excellent job saying it! You stated it very well and I think you are 100% right on.

All horses have a genetically built in system of communication. First it takes an understanding of what it is and how it works, then it takes a developed sensativity to their "language" to be able to "hear" what they're "saying", than it takes a knowlege of how to display it ourselves and "talk" like a herd leader.

I think this is it, 100% in a nutshell. They are ALL, after all, horses.

I think Helene's neighbor just lacks the experience in communicating with this type of horse. I imagine in time and many more horses he'll be much better. Right now the horse needs someone who has more experience and/or is a better communicator.

Cindy

03-16-2007, 03:00 PM

Let me just make this clear for everyone who is reading this. And let me first start out by saying, no, I am NOT taking anything has has been said in this thread personally (Carol). What I am doing is relating MY personal opinion and experience to what has been said here. What has been said here is that people must not think the method works because people don't know how to do it properly. That is not true. And the method DOES work. I use it all the time. I use this form of communication with ALL of my horses whether they are in the round pen, in the arena, have a line on them, do not have anything on their head at all, etc, etc, etc... The method involves simply knowing how horses move in herds, naturally. It is natural to all horses. That is why it works.

What those of us who have said it have said is NOT that the method does not work at all but that the method does not work with many Paso Fino horses who have not had some form of training PRIOR to using the method on them. And we say this not based on some theory of why the method does not always work. We base this on real life experience with many, many Paso Fino horses. We say this NOT because we are too stupid to understand how a very simple method of training works, but because we have the experience to know when it works and when it does not. And the intelligence to realize that training any horse properly requires knowing more than one way to skin a cat and applying the correct method at the correct time is crucial to good training.

For those who have said that it must not have worked on that horse because that trainer did not know how to do it right, how many of you remember in the Clinton Anderson thread that I mentioned a horse that had been permanently injured at a clinic by one of the big named clinicians? Well, this big named clinician was in fact the famous roundpener Monty. And the horse was injured when he would NOT "join up" with the famous Monty and after much time of the famous Monty trying to GET the horse to "join up", the horse went through the crappy round pen that the famous Monty uses at his clinics. You know the one, the one that you see on so many farms now because so many people have seen so many famous clinicians using it that they think it is the way to go for round pens. You know, the one that is about as dangerous as a round pen can be for actually TRAINING horses that are UNTRAINED. Anyway, horse went through crappy round pen, got injured and is now a pasture ornament. Oh and, by the way, this was NOT a Paso Fino. So I guess Monty does not know how to round pen correctly. :roll:

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-16-2007, 03:27 PM

I have been following this thread, is a very interesting thread least to say FASINATING!!!!!!!!! I have to agreed with Cindy 100%.........

We have had Potros and Potrancas that has never been touched they have been 15 months and have not yet being DESTETADOS, in order to bring them in we also had to bring the MAMA in the stall with the cria.

In 1 week that FOAl has been completly given to the halter and to the lead, everything is done in the stall, by the second week then we proceed to the round pin after we feel that IT WILL BE SAFE FOR THEM!!!!

The complete method is done by using the comminication NO FORCE, NO CHASING and not throwing ropes or choking either..... its all communicating and and taking advantage of GIVING, and you will earned this horse in no tme, that is what training is all about, COMMUNICATION!!!!!! on both sides.

I will not recomend anyone that is not a Professional to try this method, is takes experience.

Again, I am really enjoying this thread............

Saludos

CarolU

03-16-2007, 03:32 PM

Not a fan of Monty's either.

Heidi

03-16-2007, 03:33 PM

The method involves simply knowing how horses move in herds, naturally. It is natural to all horses. That is why it works.

...applying the correct method at the correct time is crucial to good training.
...sounds to me like Monty was more concerned with how the audience would perceive him if he DIDN'T get the horse to join up that he forced the issue by not 'reading' (listening to) the horse.
I feel sorry the poor horse had to pay for his vanity.

I rmember our steers got out and I asked my sister's boyfriend to help me get them back in. He was from 'town' and he stepping in front of the steer's shoulder and the steer stopped moving toward the gate and turned away.
I remember thinking: "don't you know how to herd a cow?"
Not everyone does know how to communicate their desires to animals, and I learned that lesson, that day.

CarolU

03-16-2007, 03:44 PM

There are lots of sites like this....

http://citizensforjustice.org/monty/truth_wrap.html

To answer your question Cindy, I would say that Monty does not round pen correctly.

Pinto Paso

03-16-2007, 03:45 PM

Cindy, Thanks for saying what needed to be said in a very tactful way -
for those of us that have been in the breed for many many years, and have numerous Pasos come through our gate it is indeed reading each horse. I stand behind what we said and with you in that an untouched Paso is not the best candidate for the program.

I also was fortunate enough to learn from some of the very best horseman of their day - men and women that made a living from raising stock, competing in many many equine events, using horses in every day life and living with horses their entire life. Rodeo riders, livestock contractors and ranchers. I was born into this life literally - my father rode and trained horses into his 80's. My uncle and sons stock contractors, the eldest son National Champion bull rider. How is this relevent? They knew animals, they didnt abuse or neglect or look for the next gimmick to communicate. Did they make mistakes, sure after all they were human and the animals didnt speak the same language all of the time.
My point is - if you are so single minded to apply one form of communication chances are that is all the animal will hear.

I dont think I am "unable to communicte" nor do I feel that "I dont know how to use the technique". I do think it takes time to get to know an animal just as it does people - we may be nice to each other, but a real friendship and partnership takes time, trust and respect from all parties.

Cindy

03-16-2007, 03:50 PM

Pinto, who was the bull rider?

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-16-2007, 03:51 PM

One thing that a MASTER tought me many moons ago!!!!!! regarding communication is = Start by respecting and always be HONEST to the horse!!!!!!

That Master trainer Rest in Peace will always be my GrandFather!!!!!

Saludos

Pinto Paso

03-16-2007, 04:00 PM

Brian Claypool
(Canadian National Champion - doing pretty good in the USA at a young age)
killed in a plane crash while traveling to another rodeo..

In the city where we were raised, Saskatoon Saskatchewan, he is in the sports hall of fame... Brian and my oldest brother Lance were my heroes growing up. They would and could, ride almost anything - then encourage the rest of us to try and get the wind knocked out of us..

http://www.saskatoonsportshalloffame.com/athlete/brian_claypool.htm

Pinto Paso

03-16-2007, 04:00 PM

CarolU

03-16-2007, 05:17 PM

:surrender

All right Pinto and Cindy....I give up. Apparently it doesn't work on all Paso Finos, because ??? Since neither of you use round pen catch training on Paso Finos, I'm trying to understand how you came to this conclusion. My (and apparently Rueben's) experience is quite the opposite, it has worked. So would you please elaborate on which Paso Finos or what kind or type of Paso Finos don't communicate in horse and that it doesn't work on? :new confused

Pinto Paso

03-16-2007, 05:30 PM

No Carol you seem to want to take a partial statement and use it as an entire statement - neither Cindy nor I stated we dont use round pen techniques. In fact we have both stated that we do use these techniques often. Just not for all unhandled Pasos that have not been touched and not just in a roundpen. I am pretty sure that Cindy and I have both had qute a bit of experience over our combined years in the breed. Neither one of us have made a general blanket statement about all Pasos. Please stop taking parts of our statements to further you argument. If you feel that the one program will work for you with all Pasos by all mean use it.

CarolU

03-16-2007, 06:04 PM

The freelonging/join up thing does NOT work with Paso Finos until they already have some ground work.

LOL - I'm not doing it wrong because I dont do it.

:confused

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-16-2007, 06:12 PM

Round Pens is a very important training part of most all farms!!!! I dont think no one is rejecting to that. But Carol based on past experiences I rather start a Totally Green horse in a more confined area.

I am talking on a green horse that has never been exposed to human touch, never inprint nor foot print nor copy print. jejejejeje me and my STUPID HUMOR!!!!!!!

And like Cowgirl said (with respect that is), if works for you GREAT.....
I am also glad to hear that different methods also works for different people.

Based on personal experience, I refused to put a horse on a round pin, throw a rope and then pretend that I am his or her savior...... that migth work creating an ALFA order, but I also seen those horses with very short capacity of understanding look to escape by situation by trying to climb reaching the MAX in their ATOLERATION.

So, I also totally support Steff and Cindy............

Free longing does work and we practice it every day but not for beginers.... that is my opnion based on experience, but I indeed respect other methods that works for them.

Saludos

Pinto Paso

03-16-2007, 06:19 PM

Yes Carol - excellent example of partial statements

CarolU

03-16-2007, 06:46 PM

Good, so we're back where we started, but now in agreement, that these methods DO work, provided the trainer understands and adjusts for the horse he/she is working with.

Ever try to push a rope? Coral an eel? Those are what these circular "discussions" reminds me of. ;-)

Have a good day.

Pinto Paso

03-16-2007, 06:56 PM

No, I dont think we agree - Some of the techniques work on some of the horses but just because it doesnt work on a horse doesnt mean that the handler doesnt understand the technique. A good trainer will just work with a horse in a way that they can both understand.. Giving it a commercial name does not make it a technique.

CarolU

03-16-2007, 07:13 PM

Giving it a commercial name does not make it a technique.

And it doesn't make it necessarily wrong either. These techniques are taught by trainers and clinicians to many people for one reason, they work. The trainer needs to be savy enough to tweek it and adjust it to fit the horse, but they DO work.

Pinto Paso

03-16-2007, 07:37 PM

OK Please feel free to use the one technique.

Terry Wallace

03-16-2007, 07:40 PM

we have the experience to know when it works and when it does not

I'm borrowing a line from Cindy here because this is the HEART of the matter.

The problem Helene's trainer is having is exactly that he does not have the experience to know to stop this approach. He has been "sold" a method and told it is the only one. He does not have the experience to know that there are other methods besides the one he was "sold on" yet....ANYBODY who trains will concur, that you must use way more than just one method....that you MUST be able to read the horse...to be able to decide what to try next.

I'd have to say....he makes one of the most common mistakes...and that is...he continues to move the horse until it becomes almost a "punishing"
type of session. He does not stop and try a little "reverse psychology"...like warming up to the horse instead of continually driving him away when it is NOT working. I think he would be really surprised if he would just STOP...forget for a minute what he has been taught...go up to that colt, take that colt's head in his two hands and just chill...just stop the chasing...and try some TOUCH... he needs to give that colt something else to think about besides being moved away... JMO

Helene

03-16-2007, 10:33 PM

Terry, he did try and stop, try to rub the colt's face, but the colt nipped within seconds and took off running. It was a game to him "how fast can I nip and how fast can I get away". Petra did "stuff" that the colt did not expect and it awoke his curiosity. It also made the colt stop and wonder would would come next....

Terry Wallace

03-17-2007, 12:18 AM

Helene..that is exactly what the guy should have done (what Petra did)....like offered that colt the end of a lead line to bite on...but it was too late...he already had the colt in "escape..or catch me if you can" mode.... I would much prefer the colt came TO me, than tried to "nip and run"....

All I can say..is whatever he was doing..his timing was way off...that is very indicative of him not being able to read the horse...which is pretty much lack of experience...

Helene

03-17-2007, 12:40 AM

His timing was definitely off....and he didn't realize that what he was doing was not going to work, not on this colt. And he has no experience, just a 6 week course (for about $10,000) and he was certified as a horse trainer. He since has worked with his own horses only (5 of them). I thought I'd give him a chance....how else can he get experience. I thought he would consult his teacher if he got into a dead end.
This colt, also, does not like to be touched. I've scratched, rubbed, petted him...He always moves his legs, head....He constantly moves and very seldom stands still. So it was a treat when he did when Petra worked with him and he finally seemed relaxed.

CarolU

03-17-2007, 01:16 AM

He always moves his legs, head....He constantly moves and very seldom stands still. So it was a treat when he did when Petra worked with him and he finally seemed relaxed.

That is why the trainer has to adjust their techniques for some Paso Finos. The round pen technique is based on horses being lazy. Not all Paso Finos are lazy and moving is what they WANT to do. The trainer has to be smart enough to see this and adjust the method for the horse. Using the colt's curiosity to get him out of the nip-and-run game is the kind of imagination and flexability a trainer needs for a horse like yours.

Helene, this colt will not change...he will always be a high energy mover. Make sure your potential buyer knows this. Ideallly he needs a home where he is not stalled and where he is worked a LOT. I'd look at an Endurance rider or someone like that who wants a horse that likes to go, go, go.