OK tree huggers (horse slaughter)

[appyday]

Kentucky Swamped With Unwanted Horses

http://www.wtop.com/?sid=1087939&nid=104

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The bidding for the black pony started at $500, then took a nosedive.

There were no takers at $300, $200, even $100. With a high bid of just $75, the auctioneer gave the seller the choice of taking the animal off the auction block. But the seller said no.


"I can't feed a horse," the man said. "I can't even feed myself."


Kentucky, the horse capital of the world, famous for its sleek thoroughbreds, is being overrun with thousands of horses no one wants _ some of them perfectly healthy, but many of them starving, broken-down nags. Other parts of the country are overwhelmed, too.

The reason: growing opposition in the U.S. to the slaughter of horses for human consumption overseas.

With new laws making it difficult to send horses off to the slaughterhouse when they are no longer suitable for racing or work, auction houses are glutted with horses they can barely sell, and rescue organizations have run out of room.

Some owners who cannot get rid of their horses are letting them starve; others are turning them loose in the countryside.

[CarolU]

OK tree huggers (horse slaughter)


HEY!!!! Wait a Minute! I fully agree with hugging trees. They are a natural part of the North American environment. 100,000 unwanted horses are NOT. That is why I HONESTLY believe that everyone who voted for that stupid ban should cough up $1,000/year to pay the feed and board bill on an unwanted horse.

(I know, they SWORE this wouldn't happen, didn't they?)

[SandyMM]

Eventually, anti-slaughter groups insist, the market will sort itself out, and owners will breed their horses less often, meaning fewer unwanted horses.
Well, that's not entirely true either....

[Abejita]

and even if it was..how many horses would have to suffer until it 'sorted itself out'?

[Jasfino]

Some owners who cannot get rid of their horses are letting them starve; others are turning them loose in the countryside.


What part of Ky are we talking about here? Nothing has changed much around here regarding horses. The slaughter plant in Illinois is still operating to my knowledge.. and thats where most of the unwanted horses from my area end up.

[Carol Nelson]

Hmmmm...now I've been told the slaughter plants are in operation here also...just not for human consumption. I have no idea WHAT is true anymore. :roll:

[Minouri]

When I read that article I thought.....the press really makes me sick. They play one side of a story till it has been run down....then the flip to the other side. I really believe it's nothing more than attempt to build interest in the topic again. None of it is for the real good of the horses. IMHO

[Mellifluous]

Ohh, this is a very valid point that came up on another discussion area.

Do you consider the slaughter of cattle or pigs to be due to "uncontrolled breeding?" Those animals are BRED to be slaughtered and eaten! I drive through 20+ miles of cattle country on my way to work every day, and I can GUARANTEE you that the fate of each and every new calf born is to be either slaughtered and eaten while still young or to be used to raise more calves to be slaughtered and eaten. Virtually every individual out there will eventually be slaughtered and eaten, unless first killed by predators or by disease or accident--outcomes which the ranchers work fervently to prevent, so as to ensure that the individuals will instead be slaughtered and eaten.

Indeed, horses are raised primarily for other pursuits. But "blaming" the slaughter market on irresponsibile breeding and irresponsible ownership while we raise entire other species for meat is pretty hard to justify.

[Beth Worden]

I actually SOCIALIZE with these horrible people that run these auctions. Gasp, covers their faces in horror!!!! One of the owners of the auction house (Unadilla, NY) is coming Sunday to do my horses spring teeth floating. I truthfully do not know what is going on so I will ask.

Are these "human consumption" slaughter houses closed? Are they still rendering horses for other uses, like zoo food, dog food, whatever? I mean, if you can still send you horse to auction and some sort of rendering place buys the horse then I don't know why there would be a "glut" of horses as yet. I will get some facts and post them.

[britzlove]

I've been good...I've been good I left this alone...for awhile...............

But I just can't stay quiet when the source of a position in this discussion is ..............

"There's horses over there that's lame, that's blind," said Doug Kidd, who owns 30 horses in Lackey, Ky. "They're taking them over there for a graveyard because they have nowhere to move them."

A linguistically challenged lower market horse trader directly responsible for flooding the lower market. That's worse than qouting the biased corporate sources...are you kidding me really? Look at this published sentence....you want to site this guy? (I wish you could hear my hyena like laughter...really)

And there are hundreds like him all over my area...KY-IN-IL-TN. These people by the way...I'm sorry I have no softee feelings for and I am all for them having to find another way to make money...I'm not crying for any horse trader and you can call me horse-nazi if you want to.

And this guy,

Nelson Francis, who raises gaited horses, a rare, brawny breed found in the Appalachian Mountains, said the prices they command are getting so low, he might have to turn some loose. He houses about 57 of them, double his typical number.
"I can't absorb the price," Francis said. "You try to hang on until the price changes, but it looks like it's not going to change. ... What do I do? I've got good quality horses I can't market because of the has-been horse."


Well Ole Nelson, I say, maybe you should have figured that out before you compiled a collection of 57horses :!:

And yes the legitimate point in this article about excess horses and rescues not being able to correctly handle them is still GROSSLY ignored and I am doing everything I can to try and get people to realize that this issue isn't going to go away and we must not pass any legislation which does not include more safeguards, enforcement guidelines and regulations to address ALL the issues facing the horse industry.

Concerned horse lovers really need to step up and help enforce cruelty laws present in every state. (Don't know yours? I'll track it down for you-free!) Do not keep passing by horses in need and shaking your head...everyone knows someone concerned enough to report it to. People who can only afford lower market horses should consider adoption from a responsible, accountable rescue rather than supporting low market dealers. If you have a friend that wants a horse I encourage you to help them buy from accountable horses.

Rescues need to begin to address the issues of the ranks of the infirm, unsound, unmanageable horses so that the good ones can find homes. I recently saw a request for funds for a not yet incorporated rescue (backyard) that was trying to get $3000 for a surgery on a yearling! A grade, poorly conformed yearling. $3000 :!: I'm just as sensitive as every other horse owner...but realistically it's a problem. Has anyone mentioned establishing a euthanasia fund? How about any verbage added to the ban legislation for using fines to establish funds for removing excess?

I can't get over this latest thread...
"There's horses over there that's lame..."

Are you serious?

[CarolU]

The law that Bush signed only stopped paying for USDA inspectors at horse slaughter plants. That only means that horse meat can't be inspected for sale for human consumption. It does not ban slaughtering horses for other reasons. So, I'm not sure what it accomplished, except removing veternarians from the slaughter house.

It is my understanding that the two plants in Texas were shut down for not following some Texas law...not sure what it is/was. And maybe they are back in compliance with the law and back in business. I don't know.

[britzlove]

Adding for Beth that the two Texas plants are comprimised..but open...but #'s down because they can only handle zoo food...not as profitable. They are still tied up in court on several fronts...they lost the appeal to continue slaughtering for human consumption and the last remaining appeal would have to go to the US Supreme court...they had 30 days to file but it's unlikely they will...what they did was file suit to repeal the law banning it in TX. (State if TX law signed in 1949) They also have other pending problems...

Dekalb is still slaughtering. (IL) They are struggling just as hard as TX plants because of other violations as well.

I'm not kidding...it's not going to go away...there's ALOT of $ continuing to feed support of the ban...if this one doesn't pass...I don't see the fight dying down.......

[CarolU]

Then Britz, is there any law in place to stop shipping the horses to Mexico where there is no humane kill method?

[britzlove]

No..there's not...but they can't make as much because it costs $ to ship across the border...Canada's even more expensive...it happens...but because of the expense it's usually only horses that can compensate for the added expense.

Now, you cannot ship from CA to slaughter anywhere.

I'm for a humane alternative...I'm not a tree-hugging set all the animals free PETA person.

I want the bad guys out of business and the good guys to do better.

[Terri]

You know, I kinda struggle with this issue emotionally, but I gotta agree with what Ruth said. The Press makes me nuts. This article was put on AOL headlines with the title "Kentucky over run with unwanted horses" and right beneath it was a picture of a pretty. well cared for, muscled, sweet, TB (?). This is NOT a picture of one of the unwanted horses. And if anyone thinks they are going to run down to KY and pick up this boy for free, they are out of their minds. They are trying to manipulate an emotional reponse to a picture of a pretty horse and an older gentleman.

[britzlove]

Terri,

The link I was forwarded had a pic of two horses one gray, one black and if you clicked through the other slides it showed carcasses (not discernable as horses though).

Doesn't matter...I'd have let it go but I really do resent the language of this posted thread.

I love my horse...thank goodness Spring's here!

[Terry Wallace]

Hmmm..."Sort itself out"...yeah right!

While people go right on breeding every mare in site.....

Now, how long do we figure it will take to "sort itself out"..??

IMO..it won't!

We need that proposed moritorium on breeding more than ever before right now...JMO.

Don't breed & raise more than you can afford to feed...as chances are..they will be with you a long, long time....while this "new market" is flooded with cheap, free, or nearly free horses of every breed....
It won't matter how many really well bred horses you raise when horses
are being given away right & left... turned loose (here its in the national forest) or selling so cheap they are $100.00 a head....
Because it sure is not likely you will be getting $2500 and up!
Not when slaughter plants cannot sell for human consumption...and the profit is not "worth the bother" for zoo meat...

Time to wake up and smell the Starbucks, time to STOP Being part of the problem and find some kind of VIABLE solution......JMO

That is why I HONESTLY believe that everyone who voted for that stupid ban should cough up $1,000/year to pay the feed and board bill on an unwanted horse.

You and me both CarolU...just wait...this kind of story is just the tip of the iceberg....IMO

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

I want the bad guys out of business and the good guys to do better.



I coulnt agree more with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and is the right time too!!!!!


Saludos

[Terry Wallace]

Problem is....it will also take the GOOD GUYS right out of biz with them....

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

That is yet to be seen!!!!!!!! Terry

[Terry Wallace]

Its going on RIGHT NOW Caliber.... It happened to me, it happened to many of my friends, and I just got word yesterday that is happened to another friend of mine.... YES>>>we were the "good guys" the ones who stand behind what they sell...the ones who breed good horses...the ones who breed just a few foals a year...so don't even try to tell me it is yet to be seen....

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Terry, do you mind sharing what happend to you yesterday if you dont mind?

[Terry Wallace]

It didn't happen to me Felix..it happened to a friend of mine who made a very hard decision to stop breeding and put her horses on the market...the reason is because you can't even recoup the cost of rasing one to three years old here...its a lose-lose situation, and it is getting worse all the time....

The worst part is...its champion bloodline stock..one....a many time nat champ.

[Terry Wallace]

BTW folks...can we touch on one other subject that is going to affect us ??IMO....

Many of our hay producers will be finding out that growing soy beans for bio-diesel and corn for ethanol will be more lucrative than growing hay in the future....so with hay supplies already short, and hay prices rising....

Anybody care to venture a guess on how high hay will go?

I think we all know that our nation needs FUEL far more than it needs horses....at least in they eyes of most non-horse owners! Everybody has a car or a truck... we must become more dependant upon our own country for fuel.....

And so it goes....

[Abejita]

Well one thing that MIGHT save the hay market in some areas is what has happened to my farmer.Much of the land he farms(leased) is in one gvmt program or another and it has gotten to the point they are telling him where he can /cannot till/plow In areas where run-off is concerned (like the Chesapeake Bay watershed project ) some farmers have taken to planting hay just to keep the gvmt lackies off their back. Grass handles run off better than just planted crop land .Only problem is many plant alfalfa as they are dairy farmers..Our farmer was contemplating planting the rest of our crop land he farms in hay due to the washing .This is very hilly area and contour farming is the way its done..but it sure isnt fool proof.
It will affect hay prices ..BUT they also need hay to produce food animals and also it will depend on what incentives the government offers.I mean look at what the gvmt does to the dairy farmer with their milk prices They get the screws put to them..if they treat the future 'fuel farmers' the same..who knows

[Jasfino]

so with hay supplies already short, and hay prices rising....



There is no hay for sale in my area. All of it that usually is available has been bought up and sent to other areas of the country. The guy we usually buy our hay from sold what he had after the first of the year to someone out of state. People have been stopping by our barn wanting to buy hay... we have none for sale. Dad gave the amish our poorer quality hay, that we dont feed, for their animals.. and this year people have been wanting to buy that to feed their horses. We had to go almost 100 miles away to find hay last month... and it ended up being crap.. we paid $4.50 a bale. I hate to say it but I can see hay going so high in the future.. it's unreal. The guy we found in TN that sold us the crappy hay.. said he was buying all he could from this area and taking it to other areas and making a huge profit. He has his own tractor trailer truck and said he plans on doing the same next yr.

[CarolU]

Hey, welcome to the new world order people...where human beings continue to reproduce unchecked and the space and fodder for all other speicies is sacrifice. Horses are a luxury in this country...and maybe they'll be one of the first to hit the finite wall..."no more space at the Inn."

[Beth Worden]

Horses are a luxury in this country
Carol U -
Yes - they are. It is about time people realized this. I know LOTS of people who have no more business having a horse than a hole in the head. And yes, when things get tight they dump the horse, or starve the horse, or call me and want to know what to do with the horse - keep the snowmobile, mind you, even if the car is on blocks! But that's ANOTHER story.

Terry - All the boards I frequent are saying the same thing. It is pretty much the "end of an era" where you could make a living raising horses. It is no longer cost effective. DOesn't matter if you have a day job or not. You will be pouring good money after bad into a losing proposition.

IMO - Folks will still be able to get $1500-3500 for a good pleasure horse to the right buyers. Buyers who know what they want are willing to pay for quality and training. But in this world, most people are bargain hunters - myself included. I hate Walmart, but I buy stuff there, but if I want a GOOD pair of boots I'm willing to pay the dollars for the very best I can afford. MOST trail/pleasure horse buyers will take a free (or really, really chaep) horse rather than spend the $3500 that my SAFE horse will cost them. AND...the way prices are going, who is to say the free horse is not safe also?

As for hay...my area is dairy farm country. They feed those cows hay. Hay is abundant here, but the small dairymen cannot hold out too many years longer either. THankfully, my hay supplier is younger than me and won'tr part with the family farm before I'm dead and gone.

[Terry Wallace]

It is pretty much the "end of an era" where you could make a living raising horses.

No doubt Beth... I could not agree with you more....having pretty much lived through "the era"....

Thirty years ago... I could sell every horse/foal I bred and had a waiting list for more for the following year...these days you can barely give 'em away....

I have one lady interested in breeding a mare to one of my stallions...
she is paying $300 a month in board....when she gets to where she has 2 horses, it will be $600 a month in board....JUST BOARD...no vetting, no farriery work, no extras.....

How in the world can she afford it? I have told her of a very nice rescue filly, already "here & on the ground"...and how she would be money ahead to just buy the filly.... but ...she has a dream of raising a foal from birth, something many horse owners want at one time or another.

I feed seven horses a month for just over $600.... Were I this lady...I'd rather be finding a place in the country where more than half my board would go to a mortgage on a property I would some day own...
Its getting very "frivolous" to be spending so much money on horses....as it can really never be re-couped from horse sales these days.....

JMO...

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Like to see when there is a MEDIUM we all agreed in!!!!!!!

Saludos

[Pam M]

It's not just the breeders who will be forced out of business. When I opened my boarding barn 4 years ago, I was paying $2.50/bale for squares of coastal and $25/bale for rounds. This year I paid $65/round and $6.50/square. Grain went up a $1+ per bag - I feed about 12 bags/week so there's another $50/month added to my costs. I charge $275/month for board and if I were to include my land payment, insurance, electricity & water, costs to run tractor, costs to maintain pasture and fuel to pick up feed and hay, I actually lose money every month. I choose to ignore all of those costs and pretend that I'm happy with the whopping sum of approximately $2 per hour that I make by only accounting for my feed/upkeep expenses and labor time. :lol:

[SandyMM]

Horses have _always_ been a luxury of sorts. Even when they were the only form of transportation and horsepower - they were a luxury. Those who could afford them, had them. Those who couldn't afford them, didn't. Available good hay has always cost more than bad hay whether hay was scarce or not. Hay is always scarce when you haven't been able to put up enough ahead of time (whether for storage or monetary reasons). Some people raise horses to make money in the current market - they will fall by the wayside if that is their only criteria. Some people breed what has stood the test of time and breed only as much as they have the experience to reasonably predict they will sell at a price that will keep them relatively solvent. Some people breed to maintain certain bloodlines and weathering the current 'crisis' is just one more page in a continuing saga.

Our breeding philosophy is
-to breed what we would be happy to keep and use ourselves if it doesn't sell and
-to maintain the bloodlines we trust to do as 'advertised' when someone thinks of buying a Paso Fino to use and ride themselves - naturally smooth range of gait, substance, intelligent w/ willing disposition

Our business goal is to breed and sell enough to make it worthwhile to continue to offer some of our stock/bloodlines to those who enjoy the type of Paso we enjoy - on the ground and in the saddle.

We never expect to get rich monetarily by breeding Pasos - except in the knowledge that we are helping preserve some of the best old bloodlines for current and future generations to enjoy.

[britzlove]

Well put Sandy...and believe me...we still need those good breeders willing to maintain standards...and willing to "weather the storms".

I'm still going to maintain the position that the majority of paso finos are not part of the slaughter problem..but they could be. Talking in sheer numbers (these piled up excess unwanted horses) paso finos are not the primary concern...but they could be....if the undedicated and unscrupulous somehow run the #s up.

This thread was in response to a poorly written editorial, from someone without any really encompassing knowledge of the subject. Here at APF I think most of us agree that stockpiling 30 horses or 57 horses when you can't sell one...is the first sign you're going the wrong way.

People like CarolN and Sandy aren't the problem. They can tell me exactly why one stallion was bred to one mare for what goal and to what end. They can tell me what buyer will be interested in that foal..and what it will take to make a productive member of "horse-society".

If asked "why" they could give a much more intelligent reply than, "Well I can make a couple hundred on 'em!" with an excited tone. Or worse, making $50 on a flip deal is enough for some people. These are the people who are piling horses up mostly. Now, we even got them hanging out shingles calling themselves "rescues".

Profitability is in a pretty bad storm right now for good breeders. There are ways to survive this. But whether slaughter is an option or not...isn't really the problem. It's the micro-horse economy...basically.

Britz

[Jasfino]

Hay is always scarce when you haven't been able to put up enough ahead of time (whether for storage or monetary reasons).

Cant agree with you on that. This is the very first yr we..in our area... have had trouble finding hay out of the last seven. Things are changing... :-?

Available good hay has always cost more than bad hay whether hay was scarce or not.

I guess the key word here is "available". Good bermuda hay has been running $4.50 a bale. This crappy hay we bought was $4.50 a bale. I usually wouldnt have paid $2.00 for it.. but it was all there was.

[Linda Y]

Hey, welcome to the new world order people...where human beings continue to reproduce unchecked and the space and fodder for all other speicies is sacrifice. Horses are a luxury in this country...and maybe they'll be one of the first to hit the finite wall..."no more space at the Inn."

Yep...how can you expect people to check their breeding of animals when they can't even limit their own breeding and reproducing. All these people who have kids by different fathers, then we pay for it. But that is a whole nother topic... :evil:

[cowboy ed]

head on, apply directly to the forehead. head on, apply directly to the forehead, head on............

[Barbwire]

:rofl

EXCELLENT, ED!

[Jasfino]

:yay ..no Ed.. wasnt your line was suppose to go something like this.. ... (unless someone has re-written the script)

Your a toy!!! Your not a space ranger...(jumps up and down)... your an action figure... you know.. a child's plaything...

:D

[Beth Worden]

Allrighty, then...just had the girls teeth done and BTW - they were ALL very good about it. Tia had sharper edges than the Ice mares, but she was a trooper and will be much happier eating now.

Anyhoo, the fella that floats my horses is Rod Chambers of Chambers Auction in Unadilla, NY. Spoke with him at length about the horse slaughter thing. The Texas plants are not talking. No one seems to know EXACTLY what is happening, but apparently, it could be business as usual sans USDA inspectors - or not.

As for we folks in NY State. No worries (depending on how you look at it)as yet because the horses that run through our auction head for Canada to be processed there. However, as I believe I have posted before, the fellow who buys for the Canada market is now 75+ years. We wonder WHO will take his place. Additionally, the "contract" with the French who were buying the horsemeat for consumption ran out April 2006. It has not been renewed. The contract cost a lot of dollars because the slaughter house must hire French inspectors to work at the processing plant and these inspectors cost big dollars. $150,000 per yearly quarter!!! The slaughter plant had to PAY for this. So, the price of horse meat is way down. I forgot to ask how much per pound, but down.

The horses are still being bought here and sold in Canada and are rendered for other things like animal (pet) food. In Canada they are still using horsemeat in dog food, etc. My understanding is that in the US we can no longer use horsemeat for pet food. Am I correct in this? Anyone?

So the long and short of it is we still have a "meat" buyer at our auction because of our proximity to Canada so you can still ship you horse to auction and get something for it - not as much as 5-8 years ago when they were getting .80 cents/pound, but still getting paid rather than paying to dispose of your horse. People in this area will use this option as long as it is viable.

That being said...on Friday (auction night) we had (yet) another snowstorm so there was a whopping 10 horses at the sale, two of which were riding horses BTW. The next horse sale, which is March 31 they have been notified they will have a truckload from Kentucky and two from "out west" wherever that may be. I think the horses will be coming in from other states as the noose is tightening on the slaughter industry. Good for we Easterners looking for a bargain - and there WILL be bargains because some of the horses coming are victims of drought. Last fall we had a nice load from OK that were all fine GAITED riding horses, most with papers, and VERY hungry. Bad for the breeder looking to sell trail horses because we will have a glut of good trail stock coming our way.

So...no herds of wild horses running thru Manhatten just yet.

[CarolU]

No Beth..there is no bad on slaughter for pet food, only for human consumption. So, if the price has dropped way down, the horses are probably going to slaughter for pet food.

[Beth Worden]

Thanks Carol. Probably one of those things I read on the net somewhere and did not bother to check to see if it was true or not. Well, better to not waste. Dead is dead and that's a fact.

[Jane Hurl]

You gotta love Beth Worden, don'tcha?

Dead is dead and that's a fact.

(And, no, I am NOT being sarcastic. I really LIKE people who can see the forest AND the trees!)

[Beth Worden]

Well, Jane ya know what Mohamad Ali said......"Buy a ticket if ya love me, buy a ticket if ya hate me. Just so you buy a ticket" ;-)

[Cindy]

Your a toy!!! Your not a space ranger...(jumps up and down)... your an action figure... you know.. a child's plaything...


:rofl :rofl

[Carol Nelson]

People like CarolN and Sandy aren't the problem. They can tell me exactly why one stallion was bred to one mare for what goal and to what end. They can tell me what buyer will be interested in that foal..and what it will take to make a productive member of "horse-society".

If asked "why" they could give a much more intelligent reply than, "Well I can make a couple hundred on 'em!" with an excited tone. Or worse, making $50 on a flip deal is enough for some people. These are the people who are piling horses up mostly. Now, we even got them hanging out shingles calling themselves "rescues".

Thank you very much for recognizing that I am trying to put out a good, well-planned and well-constructed product here. I can't speak for Sandy, but I do want to say one thing here. #1, I am pretty vocal about my stand on the slaughter issue...I would love to see it abolished but I am wise enough to understand that there has to be some solution to the excess of horses in this country. I am just as angry as you when I hear about the breeders cranking out foals by the dozens every year. I agree that there is where the solution to the slaughter issue lies is with the breeders.
There is a breeder here close to me that they say has over 40 - 50 Paso Finos...and they are all thrown into a 300+ acre pasture together...mares, stallions, yearlings, two year olds and foals....and no one really knows which stallions sired which offspring...THAT is infuriating.
So,...#2) I am doing my part to battle the random slaughter of excess horses by trying to produce horses that hopefully will not end up in such a place...family horses, horses one can take home and use and love. And #3, by not filling my pastures with babies I am not sure I can feed and care for and raise until they can be placed in these homes.
Sooooo.....and here's the biggee...when I have taken the care to plan and raise and feed and train these babies...don't turn around and say to me..."Gee, I would like it if you would sell me this horse that you have planned and raised and cared for ....for $1500.....or LESS." Recognize that you are getting a good product when you come to me. I will be honest and tell you what the good things are about this horse, and I will tell you the bad things about this horse. But don't turn around and tell me that you want this horse that I have planned and worked for so diligently for little or nothing. :-?
Because to tell you the truth, what THAT says to me is that if you pay little for this horse you purchased, you will turn around and say...well, if it doesn't work out for me...I can always turn around and make $50 on it, and THAT, my friends, is how so many of our beloved horses end up at auction or at slaughter.... :(

[Jane Hurl]

Yeah ... y'gotta like that Carol Nelson too.