A confession for CarolU--I went to a "clinic"

[Candice Burger]

Still absorbing all the great stuff I saw for the last 4 days at a Bill Smith clinic held near Tallahassee. I didn't know I was in the midst of royalty trainers! Bill is a long-time friend/student of Ray Hunt and has been giving clinics in this area since 1992.

The clinic was broken into two parts. Colt starting in the mornings and Horsemanship in the afternoons. They even got to chase cows but I had to leave early Sunday to do my weekend horse chores.

I particularly enjoyed the colt starting. To anyone who wants an idea just buy Buck Brannaman's videos on groundworking and the first ride. His book on groundwork is excellent. Bill worked the colts almost verbatim to Buck's tapes.

It was good to see it in person and good to see someone besides a pro clinician start a young horse and do well with it. The way Bill got the youngsters turning on a flex cue was interesting and I plan to try it out. Instead of pulling the horse completely around. He'd send the horse and rider in a circle around the round pen with his flag. He'd tell the rider to begin flexing to the inside and when the horse was almost facing in, he'd tell the rider to release the cue and he'd flag the horse around the rest of the way. Very soft on the horse and good to see. After a few flaggings, the horse would "click" the cue and the turn; you'd see a very soft, light rein and a very nice turn started and finished by the horse.

None of the horses had been ridden before. Only one had worn a saddle before. They were halter broke to lead and had the routine feet/vaccines nothing more. By day 4, they all went on a very short trail ride with the mature horses. Very impressive and inspiring.

Working alone, there was one I'd probably wait another day or so to make sure the buck was out of her before riding in the BIG arena at the clinic, but I was impressed by how they bitted up with a snaffle, worked in the arena, wore the saddle and then actually went along with the other horses on a trail ride.

BTW--it was all about giving and flexing to get them going; getting their feet to move where you wanted them to. I'll borrow a thought from Bill. The horses already know how to turn, flex, back, stop. All we are doing is teaching them to do it when we want them to do it.

[CarolU]

So...the "True Confession" is that you learned something??? See, these guys really DO know their stuff! :D

I'm glad you liked it. I'm really glad the way they start colts now has finally caught on and changed so much in the past 20 years...lots better then the old 'buck em out' method (not that a few don't give a few hops anyway) that scared many horses for life. I can tell you, it's a lot easier on ME and my old body! :-)

I am like you, training alone. I make SURE they know all their turns, stops and backs BEFORE getting in the saddle and do a lot more driving then they do in these short clinics. I don't have a good assistant here either, so don't have someone to work a flag...but he can work a lead rope and a lunge line.

Ray Hunt was a great teacher. Just think of how many of his students are teaching thousands of people a better way to train horses.

Thanks Candace...you made my day!

[Candice Burger]

:D

Well the other side of that true confession is most of what I saw is nothing new. Allot I've picked up from good horsemen and trainers over the years no matter the discipline. I pick up something that improves my methods every time I attend any class or clinic.

The flexing is borrowed from the vaqueros, which has Spanish roots. I believe the problem with the "paso" way is it's too harsh to start a green, young horse with and too complex for most riders. The method used by Tom Dorrance and others is less complicated and much easier on the horse. I think the paso way can be incorporated at a later date when the horse better understands what is expected, has more conditioning, better development both physically and mentally.

The snaffle is a "new" idea for most vaquero type trainers, but I think it has it's place for green horses. I've seen allot of youngsters cutting teeth having allot pain and problems in their jaws while they grow their teeth and have seen cheeks inside shredded by jaquimas because the teeth were too sharp or the young horse too sore from new teeth.

Allot of the lunge work I was familiar with from Walking horses and the lowering of the head with the bit is used allot by Walking horse trainers.

Two things I learned were how to use that flag to help turn a horse on the rein--I really liked that idea of giving the horse a release half way through and let the flag do the rest. The other was the insistence of riders NOT using the rein to pull back. As soon as the horses started to get bound up, they'd start to buck. He'd let the riders flex and let them stop on one rein turning (rein back) but that was it.

I was impressed how fast the horses would carry a rider but the key was stay out of the mouth and off the head. He worked on the horses turning and flexing before they went outside in the arena or on the trail. BIG key there.

What caught my eye years ago was when I read Ed Connell's book about hackamore training. I was looking for ways to fine tune the response in a jaquima and thought I'd see what the book had to say. Well, it's pretty close to how pasos are started when started correctly. One thing we do not do and should is rein a stop with one rein and give support with the second rein. We have a tendency to cue a halt with two reins directly back and I've learned (the hard way) how that makes the horse hard in the bridle. When I stop to think about it, it makes perfect sense.

The vaquero way, which is what all these clinicians are really working on is to begin to cue the head with one rein and as soon as the horse responds, provide the release, support with the second rein to keep him straight, use your seat and legs (quit moving) and the horse stops.

When I read Tom Dorrance's book was when I learned how important to get the feet moving before even asking for a flex. Again, makes sense. I watch one colt that was "stuck" with his feet. He didn't want to pick them up to turn. When he finally moved it was hoppy and he'd buck a little bit. As soon as he began to cross his fore and hind, he smoothed out. As long as he could move his feet, he was ok. When he got stuck, he'd think about bucking again. Bill worked allot on getting him to move.

Another filly, that was QH, but very "paso" about her attitude wanted to go fast when she was upset. She had a trot that was incredible for her size. It was hard for the rider not to pull back to slow her down. Well, one rider wouldn't get off of her head and she bucked him off pretty hard. Another rider took over and he was softer, less pride, held on to the saddle for support and let her go. After a few rounds, she slowed down when she realized nothing was going to hurt her. Now that was a lesson learned (walking horses) and forgotten. Use one rein not two. I understand now why they like to get colts started in a halter and lead line. There' only "one" rein. If they understand the one lead line and you keep the rhythm with the snaffle, the horse is ok because he understands what it's about. Again, very logical.

What I liked about Bill Smith was he meant business. He's against imprinting-says it ruins a horse (I agree). He's against treats--says it spoils a horse (I agree) and he didn't allow for not even ONE escape from the horse. When he asked he meant it. He wasn't harsh, never saw him get angry, in a hurry, or set the horse up to get hurt.

One of the best demos I've ever seen was when he worked a filly that didn't want to pay attention. She kept trying to crawl out of the pen. He'd give her room to decide if she wanted to start looking at him or try to leave. When she tried to leave, he'd push her around until she started to look. I mean immediately, he'd release her. He didn't ask for much, just a very small change in her look or way of going, not even a head turn. Might have been an ear for all I know. I thought she'd be crawling that pen for at least 30 minutes, but about the time I thought that, he had her moving and turning like the rest. It was amazing to watch.

At first I thought he was just playing with her, but he was watching for something to change so he could release her. He would and she'd immediately change back to climbing the wall again, so he'd start again. In few minutes it was over because he released her when she changed. Now that's nothing new, but the horsemanship it took to know when the filly changed is something you can't get but by doing it. I hope I'll get to work enough horses to read one like that one day. He made me realize how hard I've been to my horses by not giving them a chance to change when they try.

He did say that he believed most take too much time on ground work. That when the horse does right, move on and quit worrying him to death over the same thing again and again and again. Guilty as charged. I spend allot of time beating the ground work to death.

I asked him about starting older horses. He said only humans use numbers. I asked him about starting one in a snaffle or jaquima, he said it didn't matter except to the human.

There's some things I didn't like, but I'll save that for another windy post. ;-)

[CarolU]

What you describe him doing with the filly is what I was trying to explain in Helene's thread (you word it very well). With a really flighty horse you have to give the release for the slightest try and teach them to seek the release. This is what keeps them from trying to escape. Many people do it wrong and keep pushing until they get two eyes. With some horses one ear is the first sign for a release.

On the feet, I've heard that explained about locking up. When they lock up, they're confused and don't know what you want. If you push it, they'll buck. That's why the flag is so important, it is something they KNOW.

Sounds like a good clinic.

I do agree with you about good/bad...there are things with all of them that are good and some stuff I'll pass on. Even some stuff that works, I'll pass on. Like the old Flying W. I used it on a bunch of wild ponies years ago. And yes, it broke them, but it also broke their spirit. I wouldn't do this now.

As for treats, horses have a hierarcy of needs: safety, then comfort, then confidence, and finally food. Food is the last need and the last incentive on that list. It only applies to/when horses have the other needs satisfied. A horse that is scared to death does not care about cookies. A horse that is unsure what you are asking is not motivated to do better for a cookie.
Some horses NEVER care about them. Other horses, and I've seen this particularly with imprinted horses that do not have safety issues, food is often a great motivator. I used to laugh at Rosie, who would go stand on the pedestal when I worked any other horses, so she could earn a cookie. No other reason to be there. To have a horse volunteer to do these things is a great feeling. They are not dogs.

[cowboy ed]

candice, did you see a big warmblood filly at the clinic? that horse is coming to me tomorrow. i figured it would be my luck that was the one that you said might have some buck left in her!

the lady who owns the filly wanted me to start her, but had the chance to do this clinic. i told her to do it, and it would be a great experience for both of them.

[Candice Burger]

Yeah, she was there and a very good looking filly. She was a bit spoiled at first but that ended quickly. She wanted to kick out at the other youngsters if they got too close. It didn't take much though to get her to change her mind. The owner was so small that when Bill told her to give the filly a tap or smack of the hand when the ears went back it was almost funny. That little whack was barely felt, but enough for the filly.

This one moved off very well, had some hops in her at first saddling and that was it. The owner did really well too, probably made the difference. Fearless. I'm not so sure I would have been as bold. The owner put allot of belief in what Bill said and never faultered. The filly was the most solid of the bunch. Very nice mover and willing. Nice attitude. She figured out real fast where to go for safety when she was flagged all over the arena. She was real glad to see that round pen again.

I think you'll enjoy working with her.

[cowboy ed]

thats good to hear. i started another warmblood filly for rhoda last year. it went very well also. rhoda is rather fearless (in spite of being little bitty, or maybe BECAUSE OF IT) when it comes to the horses, so that does make a difference.

[Candice Burger]

Rhoda obviously loves her horses. After the first day, apparently the filly decided she didn't want to go back for a second round in the pen. I overheard her telling Bill that she worked with the filly as shown last year to load into the trailer. 15 minutes later, the filly was loaded. Bill asked her what 15 minutes was to her in her life--not much.

Rhoda tried to play down her nice filly, but you can't hide quality. I wish I could find that confo on a paso. :-?

[Candice Burger]

The things I didn't like about the clinic was the hard way Bill reprimanded the mounts he was riding. I'm not sure jerking a horse backwards and hard spurring is deserved because the horse got hard for a moment. He did this several times a day to both geldings he was riding. I tried to see what the gelding was doing to deserve the abuse but couldn't ever catch the problem. I couldn't tell if the horse got to high head, was bracing or got hard in the mouth. Whatever it was, the horse paid dearly for it. I should've have asked, but since I was among Bill fans, a stranger to an invitation only club, I figured that would be pushing it. I still may write a letter about that. I'd like to know what was up with the punishment. Those were the only instances that I'd didn't agree with the way he handled a horse. He also tended to be a little hard handed with the cues compared to what I've seen from other clinicians, so maybe that was part of the problem.

I didn't like the typical clinic groupie syndrom. I had heard about this clinic several years ago and had to connive my way into an invitation. It was obvious the same group of folks had been attending these invitation only clinics for years, some for since 1992. Bill knew most by first name and he had quite a following. By the second day it was clear that "Circle 7" brand was his brand. Folks were traveling all the way to Wyoming to buy Bill's horses at the sales. Circle 7 horse, Circle 7 saddle pad, Circle 7 bit, and I'll bet some saddles that were built along the same design came from a Circle 7 saddle maker friend. I have no problems with it but did wonder what would these folks do without Bill.

The problem I did have with all that was after all these years of clinicing with Bill had they improved in their riding? Did they start their horses newly inspired? Truthfully, by the end of the 4th day it was evident many didn't bother to work their horses beyond what Bill made them do for the rest of the year. I was very disappointed to learn how many went to these clinics and how few horses in the horsemanship clinic were anywhere near what Bill was able to do. He was riding a Circle 7 geldings that he had sold to the owners of the place while many were using Circle 7 horses in the clinic. Big difference. I wouldv'e thought have many years of the same thing, using Bill's horses in Bill's clinics, that I'd see more riders closer to Bill's skill level. Nope. There were some but not as many as I would have expected.

Along this slant, I spoke to a gal that tries to find a horse to start in the colt starting clinic every year. After the third day, I figured I could apply some techniques for myself. I've had to work alone and isolated when starting horses, so I have to keep safety in mind when I start one. Well, I teased the gal about now that I knew this technique, she could come by and help me one weekend. Nope. She only starts colts under Bill's watchful eye. Then I found out that most of the Bill fan's did the same. Some bought yearlings at sales out west, raised them up waiting for Bill to show up for his annual clinic. Not impressed was I. I heard allot of comments that went "oh she started a colt for me last year at Bill's clinic" and "wasn't he started with Bill two years ago?"

Now this is great if you only have one or two to work with over the years and don't want someone else to start your horse and can wait for Bill. I came close to asking ol' Bill how he felt about his followers but figured again I'd be stepping out of my bounds as a guest. I felt that the horses weren't the only ones with a Circle 7 brand on their butts. There were a few that admitted they had no interest in starting horses and didn't pretend that they did. The ones I couldn't grasp were the ones that purposefully raised yearlings and then waited for Bill to show up to start them. I suppose this is fine and better for the horses; I sure hope Bill rides until he is 150 though.

I thought clinics were conducted so that folks could learn, get the skill and spread the word. Help his neighbor. Not with most clinics I've gone to. Most are clickish with devoted disciples and no intention to share, work towards acquiring a skill and no intentions of improving themselves. They just want to say they go to the clinics and rub elbows with the best. I thought clinics were to inspire folks to try to do better. I guess my agenda is too aggressive. I not only want to learn from the best, I want to be one of the best for the sake of my horse. Not 4 days out of the year but every day for the rest of my life.

If I had been going for as long as some of these folks had, I'd be embarrassed to show up with a horse still acting uneducated along with myself. I'd be trying to move out of the dependency, going to get the finer parts of horse training.

The only other part of this I didn't care for was the fact all these horses started years ago were still riding mostly two handed in a snaffle. Didn't see bosal one and none in a nice curb bit. Granted history has shown a horse can acquired high school aires in a snaffle. However, I also know that the quest of the vaquero wanna-bes (like me) is to bit up a horse properly and finish him out. All the horses were stuck in the Bill horsemanship class 101. And like he said, if you can't get the fundamentals first there's no sense in going on to other things. I'd would have thought that at least one horse and rider would've have graduated by now. Apparently clinic groupies are OK doing the same thing over and over and over for years on end with no improvement.

For me, I definitely would go again if I had a horse to ride so that I could get first had experience with an opportunity to be corrected and learn. I could even see myself going every year to fine tune my technique. What I can't envision is seeing myself stuck in Horsemanship 101 not improving. Right now there's no way I could even come close to being as good as many I saw since I've been out of the saddle as long as I have, but that's no excuse to stay that way. I may never be as good as this guy, but that's not the point. The point is to begin the journey to be better than what I am today.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Candice you are truly a REPORTER!!!!!! I am impressed by the analystic way you present the clinic. Very informative and detailed, constructive, opiniated, but yet RESPECTFULLY DONE!!!!!!!!!!!! wowowow..........

People like yourself are a few!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for sharing and bringing such valuable information to the eyes of many....... I respect you LADY!!!!!!!


Felix

[CarolU]

Interesting observations Candice. I wonder if Bill Smith's 'groupies' are the same type of person that takes riding lessons for years and never learns horsemanship? I would offer that the problem of not learning and not advancing is perhaps a problem (or method) of this clinician and does not apply to others. When I was at Parelli's Conference last year in Pagosa Springs, nearly all the people there were through Level II with their horses and into Level III, and good many through Level III and into Level IV. The whole point of their program is to advance your skills and move on. Parelli "groupies"...and there are plenty of them, sign up for on-site clinics in Ocala or Pagosa, and go to several a year...but they're always advancing. Parelli's groupies are hilarious...not just buying all the tack, the new Fussion saddle, and the programs, but they have a huge wardrobe "the Parelli Collection" that constitutes probably 2/3 their income. You can dress in Parelli clothes year round. From duster jackets, to parkas, to t-shirts and even savy socks! LOL And as funny as I think that looks...I can't say TOO much, since I have a huge wardrobe of Paso Fino jackets, t-shirts, and coats...(no socks though!) which I wore proudly the whole time! I guess I'm a PF groupie! ;-)

Not that people don't get STUCK at certain levels. And I have seen people who do very well, but that still don't have confidence in their own abilities - especially when it comes to starting youngsters. Many (most) still send their colts to professionals. Of course, I admit that the hardest thing about starting a colt is the ground.

What I saw at Craig Cameron's clinic wasn't groupies, it was all kinds of horsemen, including ones who routinely start their and other people's horses, there to learn from a 'master.' Cameron starts over 200 horses a year. The only thing I didn't like about his clinic was that he was working with a nippy colt, and Craig would pop the colt in the jaw (not the muzzle..which Craig said NEVER to do, but the big jaw) a lot....not just when the colt went to nip. I felt that that he was pretty excessive.

I looked at Craig's program while there, and it is pretty exclusively on colt starting. I think the programs like Parelli's, Anderson's, Lyons, Reese, and some others, teach a full horsemanship program that should get you to a well trained horse.

[Candice Burger]

In defense to my negative comments I think allot of clinicians wish it weren't that way.

I was talking to my ex-still-trainer-friend once about that. He had been asked to give several clinics but had a true fear of them. Mostly because he knew 90%+ of the people there wouldn't get what he was saying, would only get 10%- of the technique. They'd then go home totally mess up a horse and tell everyone that they learned it that way at his clinic and blame him for ruining the horse. I told him most never bother.

I was told Bill was allot rougher on riders years ago. Obviously he's figured out the 90%/10% rule. I couldn't believe some riders simply quit the class when he started asking them to work on forehand and hindquarter turns. They wandered off to other areas of the arena and then disappeared never to return. Others went about it half-hearted and there were others trying but didn't understand hand or leg position. For the ones that were trying, he'd help. For the others, he ignored them.

I have to defend most clinicians. Their job is to teach the ones that want to learn. It's the same story not matter where I go. There's the ones that want to show off and get themselves into trouble. I've done that and ended up with a few visits to the doctor because of it. There's the ones that are too self-conscious to try their skills or will not do as much as they do at home. I've done that and missed an opportunity to learn by my mistakes. There's the ones that "think" they know what's going on and don't even bother. At least I haven't done that. I don't mind being ignorant.

Getting old does wonderful things. I've had to come to grips that if I'm going to cross off some "to dos" off my list I'd better stop with the ego and worrying if others think I can ride or how I look. I also better start paying attention when someone does it better than me and quit being competitive about it.

LOL! I wore my Mundial cap at the clinic and wear my wide-brim "Gus" hat to paso shows. Go figure. I owned a paso t-shirt once. Oh, and bought a paso long sleeve one year at Nationals when I was freezing to death. I hope I'm forgiven.

Another thought is I think some of these guys go the clinic route for $$$, but not all. Dorrances didn't pass away richly invested and neither will Ray Hunt. Ray Hunt put on a benefit for Tom Dorrance when Tom became very ill. Ray has been trying to retire for years and can't. Speculating I'd think it has less to do with teaching now and more to do with trying to get enough saved to take care of the future expenses. I know he's been seriously ill and has only one lung now. Bill, Tom and Ray didn't start into this trying to make money and they didn't. They came out of the old ranch cowboy mentality working where they needed to go and allot of it free for the asking. They were ranchers not clinicians.

These younger guys are a different story. They've got the clothes, the tack, the sponsorships, the horse toys, the marketing down slick. Cranking out DVDs and books like there's no tomorrow with RFDTV and web sites. I bet young girls swoon and young men try to act and look like them. I think they understand that clinics can pay ranch bills where ranching can't any more.

Hmm, I do wonder if all those folks that attended had to pay for it, how many would show up. Those that did would definitely want to get their money's worth! Or would it be the same only richer?

[reuben T]

Enjoyed the discussion here, I just watched Ray Hunt's first colt starting video again with a friend, gonna watch the second section when he's idling away the time next weekend at the local ambulance service, (small town, slow action) I think I'll get busy and ride that arab in a couple days, he's ready to start. I wanna ride with that friend next weekend anyway.
As Ray works em in the R pen, he keeps saying, "there's a change" "there's a change" etc. I know what he's watching, I've seen it too, but it does take some real familiairity with horses to see it and react properly, especially when it's a very slight signal.
I finally got around to reading through Mike Kinsey's website, He's training on the same principals as the best of the NH trainers, and has some unique twists to it that make a lot of sense. But he's had a lot of experience dealing with back yard raised horses, (something that people like Ray havn't had to deal with because they're training ranch raised horses that don't get the constant handling by unskilled handlers) and he has a lot to say about the way people are spoiling horses and making them difficult to train, and even almost untrainable, by handling them in a permissive manner that allows them to get away with anything. No discipline like they'd get in a herd. He compares it with the lax ideas of modern child discipline which fills the jails with crimnals.
He says he can take a half wild colt and be riding in 3 days, but some of the tame backyard raised ones aren't safe to ride in a month of work. They've always had their way with humans and it's hard to turn them around and get them to start respecting us, and it shows up bad when you start asking for some work. Consequently he's taken to analizing each prospect and refusing to train them if they exibit the characteristics of a spoiled backyard pet.
Now be aware that Mike seems to be blaming a lot of the problem on modern clinitions that're marketing theirselves and their stuff heavily. But in reading this discussion and frome waht I've observed, it may have a lot to do with the people that follow the popular trainers and look up to them like gods while not learning what they're supposed to be learning. so don't let that turn ya off.

[motorgypsy]

Thanks for the great info Candice. We're getting ready to start riding Arwen and do need to be safe and the more info we can get, the better. We been to a bunch of clinics and learned something from each one but were also surprised at the lack of progress many horse owners make. They become totally dependent on the clinician and never advance beyond what they see or do in the clinic.

We do believe in using food as a motivator as in clicker training. It's fast and once they catch on to the task you don't have to treat until you're at a good stopping point. We'll give a small serving of grain while we tack up and some carrots after the ride is over unless we're teaching something new and difficult. We don't take treats out in the pasture to catch a horse either unless all the other horses have been removed first.

Mugging is a whole different thing and totally dangerous. We had a lady at our boarding barn who would go out in a pasture with about 15 horses with a whole bucket of treats and she'd take her small grand children with her. Of course they got mobbed. Finally the barn owner had to ask them to leave her barn because despite being told never to do this she just continued and put herself and the kids at risk of serious injury.

I've used a plastic bag on the end of a crop or dressage whip when I first rode our stallion because we had another stallion next door and I wanted something very visible to use to turn him if needed. It worked quite well so I can see that a flag would work also. I like the boat bumpers that I think Clinton Anderson uses when he starts a youngsters. We've tied feed sacks to the saddle also to give us an idea about just how well the horse would respond to weight. Someone used an actually "dummy" in the saddle. I'm thinking Monty Roberst. Usually I'm the "dummy" player!!!

thanks again everyone for all the great help!!!!