Some thoughts about training gear at PFHA shows [Archive]

Candice Burger

03-20-2007, 07:18 PM

By now most have enjoyed my little flits of arguments with CarolU about "legal" training gear. For the record I believe anything more than leather in a jaquima means there's a problem somewhere. All the contraptions for sale at horse shows are gimmicks. Interesting. Useful when there is a problem. Used for a day or two but NOT the remedy. The remedy is time, patience, focus on the job and getting the horse back in a plain rawhide jaquima. That's the goal always has been.

A couple of weekends ago, while visiting Ocala, I heard Diego Bravo mention the training gear in Colombia and how only plain leather/rawhide jaquimas were allowed in the show ring. None of the harshly braided stuff, no knobs, no lumps/bumps, chains, pisals, etc.

I'm not against serretas or any of the harsher implements when a horse needs a sharp and quick reminder that I mean business. The only one I've used is traditional serreta wrapped in tape and then wrapped in terry cloth. If I had to use a gimmick, I wasn't going to joke about it. But then I don't use them for more than a few days (extreme use is about 3 days straight) and I have no intentions of using it to replace the smooth jaquima. Truth is a smooth jaquima will rip up a horse's nose and jaw if you really want to. After watching this weekend's clinic made me realize that I probably used the serreta because I was on the horse's head too much to begin with. I'm rethinking my tactics about my past uses.

I got to cruising the net and came upon these comments written by Luis B. Ortega the famous rawhide braider. The article first appeared in Western Horseman in 1945. Made me think that maybe CarolU has a point about what's going on with our schooling horses and maybe we should strive to go back to what is "pure".

I believe the only ones who really appreciate a well-reined Stock Horse are the old buckaroos themselves, and most of them will swear by the old style methods. The art of jaquima training is something that must be acquired through years of use with all kinds of horses. For those who were lucky enough to have been around the old buckaroos and learn to break horses under their guidance you will know why I say it is impossible to write down stunts that sometimes have to be done and still not injure the colt. I have often wondered at the percentage among the old buckaroos who used bolts on the back or above the heel of the hackamore; or used a triangle file: or heavy cable core braided over with rawhide; or used a quarter round iron 3/8-inch in diameter and shaped it into a hackamore to use on a colt."

"The greater part of my life was spent buckarooing with the oldtime Spanish and American vaqueros and I don't recall ever having seen or heard of any of this stuff that is so common today." [emphasis added]

CarolU

03-20-2007, 08:10 PM

Believe me Candace, I have sold and thrown away a lot of tack I used to use. Now I call all of it 'shortcuts' to training, althought "detour" is a good term too. Anymore I can't think of any reason a horse shouldn't be able to be trained to be as soft as feather in a basic bosal. If you can't do it, then YOU are doing it wrong.

I was so inspired by the Doma Vaquero that was the Gold Cup show. It was such a beautiful display of excellent horsemanship. How I honestly wish that our Paso Fino trainers had competitions like that, and "horsemanship" (the REAL stuff) was more highly valued. Our poor Paso Finos. It really is thier curse to be born with such a beautiful gait, because their whole life then is spent perfecting it...even if it means cruel head gear and rushed "training" to get them in the ring.

So unnecessary, when they have such beautiful minds and willing attitudes. How I would love to see them revered as are the Arabians in Ben Hur.

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-20-2007, 08:37 PM

I understand Carol, but please do not GENERALIZE!!!!!!!! there is also a big number of trainers here in the USA and in Colombia that are extremely DOCIL!!!!!!!!! and follow La DOMA DOCIL!!!!!!.

In old days horses where working tool, now we are getting more educated, now their are recreational tools........ so we are concentrating more in communicating with the horse....... vs slavery!!!!!!

So I agreed up to a certain degree!!!!!!!

Candice Burger

03-20-2007, 08:41 PM

CarolU

03-20-2007, 08:59 PM

Well Caliber, I have been to many Paso Fino shows, but sadly have never seen a class of Paso Finos trained like the Doma Vaquero's horse in the show. I have only seen one Paso Fino I would call "Trained" and that was the palomino stallion that Allison Ledbetter used to own, that her trainer had trained in reining and cattle cutting. Even he used spurs, which I felt excessive for that horse.

There is nothing prettier then beautiful horsemanship.

CarolU

03-20-2007, 09:01 PM

Candace, add honesty and willingness to your list.

That is a good listing...good job.

lisa l aka marci

03-20-2007, 11:38 PM

Yes, our poor pasos with so many myths and lies attached to them:

1. They are born gaiting and must gait at liberty to be paso.

2. Gait is everything; pasos must never break gait, never. If they break gait they will never gait again correctly, never.

3. Gait depends on a "paso" bit

4. Gait depends on a "paso" saddle

5. Gait depends on using two hands on the reins.

6. Head gear is everythng; if it ain't paso, the horse will never gait correctly.

We are so fixated about the gait and hold it as if we breathe wrong we will ruin it. But if #1 is true then why are #2-6 even around? Hmm?

What happened to some truths?

1. Paso is intelligent
2. Paso is stamina and endurance
3. Paso is balanced
4. Paso is fluidity, gracefulness
5. Paso is cadenced
6. Paso is square
7. Paso is sensitive, responsive
8. Paso is confidence, courage, inquisitive
9. Paso is strong and powerful
10. yet delicate and deliberate

Without 1-10, no gaited horse is paso. Even without gait but with 1-10 you have a better horse and with gait a PASO!

Oh let's see.......so easy to help put the 'myths' to rest.......
1- Marci was born gaited, but only gaits at liberty if she is in unsure footing - her mother now gaits most of the time, but only because I think it is easier on her (less impact). You should see the extension Marci gets at a TROT!!!!!

2 - Gee, I canter, lope, gallop, very rarely trot......yet all I have to do is pick up my hands and gait away!

3 - Hmmm......I ride mostly in a jacquima and have no problems with gaiting....and when I do use a bit, it is a Myler no-port 5 roller bit....no 'Paso' bit here!

4 - Paso saddle? Wonderful gait BAREBACK.......with NO BIT.....hmm.......When do ou think we can get a bareback class?????

5 - 2 hands......gee, how do Western riders do it then? Kind of hard to turn around in the saddle to chat while gaiting along if you use two hands! :shock:

6 - Halter and lead rope is my favorite set up - gaiting along! Or a pieced together jacquima, no more than noseband and head stall with reins......

As for the truths.....

How may 3 year old horses with only a couple months of training can go out on trail rides, go over wood bridges, SEPARATE from the 'herd' and go the other direction......not care about tractor trailers, rain coats, go through water, snow, mud, muck......yet still know enough when something isn't 'right' and let the rider know.....or, better yet, spook SIDEWAYS at a full gallop, never miss a beat, go back and check out the scary object and continue on.

Another one.....gallop full speed, step in a hole (low spot) - yet be agile enough to catch herself WITHOUT injury or even losing her rider! (I STILL don't know how she did it!!!!!) :shock: :D :shock: :shock:

Be given their head in trail class and watch where she is stepping so she doesn't hit the rails........oh gee....SO much common sense!!!!!

These are some reasons I love these horses SO MUCH!!!!

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-20-2007, 11:43 PM

Ok - let me stay within the SHOW Topic, I am always diviating from topics, not intentionally....

I fully understand, and agreed Carol, and I also agreed with you Candice........ I also dont think that our shows is the perfect place to learn nor to understand what the heck goes on........with our breed , sad but is the truth......
Speaking of natural horses, gaits, colors and etc... I remember the days of bleaching and now we are even discussing PAPRIKA to enfance color........ US HUMANS ARE ALWAYS INVENTNG!!!!!!!! not realizing that by trying to help the horse, we are taking the integraty away ( THE HORSE MUST BE MANTAINED HONEST)........ my opinion!!!!!!!

I truly beleive that if us.... HUMANS...... let our horses be natural without so many devices and methods, and STUFF...... our breed will reach perfection........or very close to it.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 12:11 AM

I truly beleive that if us.... HUMANS...... let our horses be natural without so many devices and methods, and STUFF...... our breed will reach perfection........or very close to it.

Gosh Caliber...I couldn't agree more!

(BTW Lisa, I don't think Candice's list was about your horses, but about what is 'valued' in the breed. The many misconceptions people have about our horses...as a whole, not as individuals)

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 12:46 AM

There are many people who use only leather - that is what I have used since I started in Paso Finos and it is what I go back to for every young horse. I dont bit unless I plan on showing (in classes where bits are required) and then go right back to leather bosal as soon as show season is over... What is the big deal?

2006 was the first time I ever purchased a bosal with the wax braid on it - used it once to retrain a horse who want to blow through the bosal and was heavy on the forehand - now it just sits around... I could still use that bosal though, because I am not always on the horses face, just as I am not always on a horses bit... I know many very good trainers in a number of breeds that know not to over use equipment - even Paso Fino trainers. I see more "owners" using the wrong equipment because they see something used once and think they need to own one, no experience in using it - just slap it on the horse and go.

Edited to add - there will always be people that have no clue how to use plain equipment so go on to the next thing they find - the problem, they dont know how to use any of it what it's intended purpose actually is.

Any GOOD trainer should be able to achieve proper collection and control without a bit...but we lots of people putting them on a horse, know idea how to fit a bit, what a specific shank or mouth piece is for but they use them anyway.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 01:13 AM

What is the big deal?

Maybe that you are one of a handfull???

You don't have to walk around Nationals long to see the serettas, bone bosals, bosals and/or curbs with huge metal knobs underneath, leather bosals with NAIL HEADS sticking out, jointed metal bosals, etc. The list of TORTURE devices used on our horses (and called "Training gear") is disgusting. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

The big deal? These are used on horses!!!! Horses that are sweet, sensitive, willing, and intelligent. It is no wonder horses in training lose their minds...and it happens ALL THE TIME. And guess what? These "Professionals" blame the HORSE! "He couldn't handle the training." Right!

And we call these people "horsemen"????? "Professional Trainers"????

I don't.

Any "trainer" who abuses a horse like this should be in jail!

CarolU

03-21-2007, 01:17 AM

BTW - This is JMHO....

It wouldn't be so bad, but I just got 'offered' another of these abused creatures FREE. The horse gaits backwards into traffic! Now THAT is "training."

(this really goes along with the horse gene thread. I cry whenever I hear of or see one of these horses. It is SO unecessary)

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 01:24 AM

EVERYTHING we as people due to horses is abuse... Shaking things at them repeatedly to "desensitize" them, working them hard, only to get them to cool down, confine them in less than hundreds of acres and on and on. I have seen a horses mind blown without severe equipment. I agree it shouldnt be used but there are far more than a "handful" of people training the way some of us do. I will reiterate it is the owners & amateurs that do far more damage than a real trainer. But I have seen many good people in this breed - many that dont deserve to be painted with the same brush because a tack sales person brings in equipment to put on display.

I have seen a leather bosal raw a horse in a very short period of time, not because the rider was severe but because the soft part of the jaw does not get exposed to friction.... just as spring hands working a screwdriver will blister... It has to be fine tuned so it is the hands far more than the equipment.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 01:27 AM

So you are DEFENDING it....????

Candice used to defend it too. Maybe you will see the 'light' soon. I hope for your horse's sake, you do.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 01:30 AM

MY HORSES SAKE??? are you blind - I have stated my training practices dont you dare imply that I as a professional trainer abuse anyone's horses. It is how I make my living.. You have never riden nor seen one of my horses.

If you read my writing It states that I dont agree with it.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 01:36 AM

So...why do you defend the use of such devices??? If you wouldn't use them yourself, how could you defend someone else doing so?

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 01:38 AM

Carol - where does it say I agree with the use of it my exact words were
"I agree it shouldnt be used but there are far more than a "handful" of people training the way some of us do."

(meaning some of us use natural horsmanship)

Please show me where I stated I agree other trainers should use these pieces of equipment

CarolU

03-21-2007, 01:39 AM

And, I should ADD that walking through the barns and arena at night, you see PLENTY of them in use. Yes, you even see blood flowing.

:shock:

It IS disgusting. To be a credible organization, don't you think the Professional Paso Fino Trainers Association should police their ranks and get rid of the people, practices and equipment that soil the reputation of all...regardless of if they themselves are guilty or not?

Have you ever been embarassed by the equipment sold on e-bay as "Paso Fino Training" gear???

CarolU

03-21-2007, 01:43 AM

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 01:43 AM

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 01:45 AM

Yes Carol - the horse was not created to be kept in smallish paddocks and fed a couple of times a day - there are degrees of abuse but I bet the horse doesnt appreciate any of it.

Please show me where I said I agree with trainers using the equipment

CarolU

03-21-2007, 01:47 AM

Well, I won't even go to Nationals anymore...I come home depressed and sick for weeks.

And yes, those things you describe are ALSO abuse. But sorry, the fact that they happen does not excuse the use of bolts, pinchers, serettas, bicycle chains, or nails as "training gear" in our breed.

You are quite correct that NONE of it is excusable, I just don't see any other breed selling it or defending it.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 01:50 AM

Get thee to some other breed shows and events then - open contest events where injections allow for over use and hard work of joints - mechanical devices to "put a stop" on a horse, tail setters, on and on and on.

As long as man is as vain as we are, these will go on - it sickens me as it does you. So those of us that use other methods need to get to the public BUT when it takes us longer for results, dont win against those that blur the lines the public that spends the money will keep going to those trainers so people - take you pictures and file your protests.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 01:52 AM

...and wouldn't it be nice if we were arguing about using osterich or emu feathers were better...instead of bolts and chains?

Go ahead....look at e-bay, see which other breeds advertize torture devices for training? One was brought on the board last year for a truely barbaric bosal with nails poking out. Why he sold such a thing. His answer was that many "trainers" asked for it. He didn't say "amatures" or "owners." Yes, I think many owners are TOO results-oriented and go along with abusive training, but I don't think that excuses the trainers who do it. There is a certain 'responsibility' that should go along with the word "professional".... IMO

CarolU

03-21-2007, 01:54 AM

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 01:58 AM

OK - just show me where I stated it is OK to use the equipment...

you love to reverse peoples words - you stated you have not seen it in other breeds, I am telling you where to go find abuse that is just as bad so that you can see it is wide spread. That in no way defends it in our breed - it simply indicates that it is at clinics, other breed shows, events. It is not just our breed so education needs to be widespread.

Cindy

03-21-2007, 02:20 AM

:new confused :poking :hitting :duh :duh :duh
:Jerry :Jerry
:welcome :bolts

CarolU

03-21-2007, 02:23 AM

Well go on e-bay...go to the tack sales sites. Do you see ANY of that nasty crap being sold as "Quarter Horse Training Bits" or " Arabian Training Whips"...??

I do not agree with abuse from anyone...but nither do I excuse ANY of it in our breed just because someone else is mean also!

You KNOW, the only way WE can solve a problem is by admitting that we have one. We have an abuse problem in our breed. WE need to SEE it. WE need to STOP it.

I have been beat up on here for years about my 'bleeding heart' attitude about horse training. I am not (nor would I EVER BE) a member of the "Professional" Paso Fino Trainers Association. They do sign an oath..don't they?

Don't you think it's time to put the horse's first?

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 02:26 AM

So again I ask - how many protests have you filled?
How many times have you reported these abuses to PFHA or show chair while you were at these events? What was the outcome?

Noone says it isnt there, what are you doing about it besides not going to nationals?

CarolU

03-21-2007, 02:26 AM

Well, I can see we're back to "pushing ropes"....

:roll:

Cindy

03-21-2007, 02:30 AM

This looks MUCH better than what we use.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SS-Long-Shank-Walking-Horse-Bit-Equine-Horse-Tack_W0QQitemZ290094348537QQcategoryZ47303QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Long-Shank-Walking-Horse-Bit-NEW-HORSE-TACK_W0QQitemZ200090262589QQcategoryZ47303QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 02:30 AM

No we are back to asking what you have done about the abuse you have personally witnessed with blood flowing and severe equipment used at night in the barn area and the arena

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-21-2007, 02:31 AM

Cindy

03-21-2007, 02:31 AM

And this is all that is listed under Paso Fino tack.

http://cgi.ebay.com/TACK-NEW-QUALITY-PASO-FINO-SHOW-BRIDLE-W-SILVER-CONCHO_W0QQitemZ230106656379QQcategoryZ3177QQssPag eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-21-2007, 02:35 AM

How many have you as a trainer reported to PFHA? Dont expect others to stand up if you wont. Take pictures, take video, file your protest do what ever it takes... if you see it and dont do something about what offends you then you are allowing it. I see far more yanking on bits, circling and flexing with bits, striking with whips than I do severe equipment.

Steff!!!! I agreed, I will say it PUBLICLY, I do!!!!!!!!! I stand for THE BREED!!!! regarless, dont care WHO or WHOM YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!!! OR WHO YOU ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will not let my intellegence
be insulted nor my principles violated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will VOICE IT regarless if you agreed or not!!!!!!!!! DONT GIVE A PLAIN HOOK!!!!!!!

Saludos!!!!!!

Cindy

03-21-2007, 02:37 AM

No we are back to asking what you have done about the abuse you have personally witnessed with blood flowing and severe equipment used at night in the barn area and the arena

You know, Pinto, I could never get a good answer to that question either. I am pretty sure that there is a steward at EVERY show. Several of them at Nationals in fact and one that stays there all night. I can tell you that I have gone to the steward on more than one occasion. But then again, I would rather do something about it rather than just talk about it and bad-mouth the breed and it's trainers. Talk does not stop abuse. Action stops abuse and if one is unwilling to act to stop abuse, they are just as bad as the abusers. Unlike Carol, I am a proud member of the Professional Paso Fino Trainers Association.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 02:41 AM

Oh yeah...THIS is "nice" Paso Fino "TRAINING" (aka TORTURE) gear...

(every image taken off of E-bay, being sold as Paso Fino training gear)

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115Torture1.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115Torture2.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115Torture3.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115Torture4.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115Torture_5.jpg

Yes, you are both SO RIGHT... this doesn't happen and I can go to bed and sleep at night knowing NO ONE would ever abuse a horse with this kind of stuff...No, not in "OUR" breed.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 02:42 AM

I am not a member of PF Trainers - no reason, other than when I was in Canada it was not beneficial and just an added cost.. but I do know how to find Stewards - I have asked that announcements be made when horses are left unattended, not watered, a problem in the stall etc.. I have not witnessed severe enough abuse to lodge a protest/complaint but I would not hesitate (remember no PFHA shows in my area and I have just started showing in this area). I am not ashamed to stand up for the horses, and if it hurts a persons feelings and I am an outcast oh well.. If you want to remain quiet upon seeing abuse, then dont ask others to stand up..

KAB

03-21-2007, 02:42 AM

Those items are on ebay under "paso Fino"

CarolU

03-21-2007, 02:44 AM

Not right now Kathy..but they have been, over the past year. I've been "collecting" them...at least as closely as I can come to touching one.

I'm sorry people, but I can't defend ANYONE who would use one of these on a horse.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 02:46 AM

I can only assume you have done nothing except gather photos then???

Cindy

03-21-2007, 02:47 AM

No we are back to asking what you have done about the abuse you have personally witnessed with blood flowing and severe equipment used at night in the barn area and the arena

Still have not answered the question, Carol. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!!!!??? Other than get on here and bad-mouth? When you saw these horses bleeding, blood running everywhere, WHAT DID YOU DO? Go back to the hotel? Go to dinner? WHAT!!!!?? Put your money where your mouth is.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 02:51 AM

No Pinto...I have admitted that it happens...which is the first step in fixing it. I won't turn a blind eye, just because some would prefer not to have the breed tainted by the actions of some.

I do think that now, with the age of miniature cameras, that someone DOES go through the barns and tape the abuse...and doesn't send it to PPFTA or PFHA, but sends it to the USHS and ASPCA and the local Sherrifs department, and that it isn't ignored (like it is now) and REAL jail time is the sentence.

Sad that people who profess to love the breed couldn't FIX it before that happens though, isn't it?

Cindy

03-21-2007, 02:53 AM

Sad that people who profess to love the breed couldn't FIX it before that happens though, isn't it?

Again, Carol, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE???? Don't YOU love the breed? When you saw all of these abuses at the Naitonal show, WHAT DID YOU DO???? Anything?

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 02:53 AM

No Pinto...I have admitted that it happens...

Sad that people who profess to love the breed couldn't FIX it before that happens though, isn't it?

Sad that people who profess to love the breed walk away when they see it and dont do anything.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 02:55 AM

Cindy

03-21-2007, 02:56 AM

Yep...even worse when they defend it.

Which noone in this thread has done. What did you do, Carol?

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 02:56 AM

Oh Crap, you know what Carol - we both love the breed - I have not witnessed the kind of blood running abuse that you say you saw. I wish you would have reported it. I would if I saw it - I'm not saying it doesnt happen - I am frequently too busy to walk through the barns..

I dont want to attack you, but if you want to make a change, dont avoid Nationals, come with camera in hand not expecting someone else to do something about it.

I will say that I have met and worked with some really good PF trainers - and if you are new here, reading this very energized discussion please take into account that there are extemes in training and opinions in ALL breeds. Choose your trainer wisely, invest the time AND the money into researching the trainer you choose - not just on one recommendation, and dont exclude one on hearsay..

Abejita

03-21-2007, 11:00 AM

ok I am looking at the pics ..CarolU I am gonna quote here I'm sorry people, but I can't defend ANYONE who would use one of these on a horse

from top to bottom
pic one Oh yeah totally I would maim a horse for life if I tried to ride in that..
Pic 2 Hmm Hey Shelly ya got two of those rope nosebands on ebay right now ..In the right hands dont have a problem with it.
3rd pic I believe the first object (from left) is a jeterra (excuse my spelling) which is used to tie down the tongue in preperation for bitting ..kinda like an indian war bridle.I have seen them used although he didnt actually attach the reins (been years dont remember) didnt seem that awlful.I saw it used on LOTS of horses over 6 years
2nd piece with the bumps Again not in my hands
3rd piece looks just like the sinplest plain leather curb???Am I wrong ?What is it?
4th piece I would say depends on how tight its adjusted but I have never seen it to be honest
The viril noseband always thought I would hurt a horse
the metal curb..well again ..not my hands....but if you wouldnt use that simple leather curb???(poorly made the way the buckles are set up)what Do you use?Again am I just uninformed as to what it it?

lisa l aka marci

03-21-2007, 12:34 PM

Hard to see - but what can happen from harsh or improperly fitting head gear......she had this before I bought her.......no hair grows on that band.....

http://www.geocities.com/lcrpff/lucy1.jpg

Candice Burger

03-21-2007, 12:48 PM

I still defend it CarolU. I still say there are days and there are horses that will benefit from VERY brief but also VERY severe methods when in rehabilitation for SAFETY sakes. I will not risk my life nor anyone else's nor a horse's because I was blindly devoted to a concept NOT a philosophy.

My severity is about getting the horse sore enough to respect his head gear again. To yield. It doesn't mean the dramatics of ripping skin off. Allot of horses come already calloused and disrespectful. I agree that time will cure allot of that, but when I can get a result I need in days instead of months with the horse going home before those months are up, I will defend the use in EDUCATED hands.

The problem with that said is many see it as the philosophy NOT the concept of training. It is a gimmick, always has been and should be treated as such. Instead "trainers" see this as a method of training. My tongue should be hanging by a thread the number of times I've gone by tack vendors at shows and heard the garbage about how so-and-so "needs" such-and-such because of this-and-that. I've come close so many times to say "it's the hands" "it's the hands".

I've watched GOOD trainers over the years get worse and worse and worse about their gimmicks and their tricks with horses. Is there not an ounce of empathy left for the beast they ride? They are NOT horsemen anymore and I have NO respect for them at all because most KNOW better! They've taken those few days of gimmicking to a higher level and I do agree ABUSE.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 12:54 PM

You are right Sheri, there is a normal curb strap in the photo with the knobby curb (actually a pretty mild one...I've seen them with 1" big knots...and the little chain). I agree the jeterra is NORMALLY used just to get a horse used to a bit, but I saw a horse 'bitted in' with one, tied back to the saddle. That was pretty awful since it is so thin.

The seretta is the worse and we see the scars from them on the cover of PFHW fairly often...ask Terry, it's one of her favorite gripes! The bloody nose I saw the last time I was at Nationals was under a pinch nose piece like the one in the bottom picture.

I use a poly trainer, and now I have a Yancy trainer...plain leather bosal and curb. And I use them for all training, not just youngsters.

The point with any gear, like a knoted rope hackamore, is that there has to be a RELEASE in order not to be cruel. If there is no release, the horse only learns that you're hurting them. Pressure motivates, release teaches.

These are all shortcuts to real training, which from the sounds of it, can be done in the "traditional Colombian" methods with a plain leather bosal and curb.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 01:05 PM

Although I can not condone serettas Candace, I do have to agree with your statement about the hands. People can be horribly cruel, even with gear that isn't designed for cruelty...like a plain bosal or snaffle bit. I'm not saying that stuff can't be abussive, but they weren't designed TO be abusive. These "gimmicks" are painful shortcuts to real training.

I remember last year, someone on here was very proud of their 3-year-old schooling filly...3 weeks under saddle and she was bitted, tightly "collected" and won her schooling class. :shock: I shudder to think what she went through in those 3 weeks.

There are horses in our breed who can't handle this. They start gaiting the second you pick up the reins and their mind goes into a catatonic state and they'll gait right over a cliff with no thought of self preservation. THAT is what I'd like to see stopped. Think how they'd be if we required that the first year...the FOUR year old year...they be shown only in a jaquima with MILD collection, and then double reined for their Fifth year, and finally a "finished" horse when they are six?

CarolU

03-21-2007, 01:21 PM

From PPFTA site...

Trainers' Code of Ethics
We the members of the Professional Paso Fino Trainers Association, in carrying out our role to providing service to the Paso Fino Horse industry, recognize the need to do so in a professional manner, and to deal with the public and our colleagues with the highest degree of integrity. Therefore, we have set forth the following creed, which shall govern our endeavors to fulfill our obligations:

To adhere to the professional standards of the Paso Fino Horse Association, and work to further its goals and objectives.
To ensure that the welfare of the Paso Fino Horse is paramount and that every Paso Fino shall at all times be treated humanely and with dignity, respect and compassion.
To conduct all business affairs with integrity, sincerity and accuracy in an open and forthright manner.
To handle our business operations in a manner which promotes the image of the Paso Fino Industry.
To instill confidence among clients and the public in the Paso Fino Horse Industry, avoiding any action conducive to discrediting it or membership in the Paso Fino Horse Association.

Candice Burger

03-21-2007, 01:22 PM

Well, to get down to the REAL problem Carol, it all starts with how the foal is raised.

Allot of foals are raised like huggables and kissables. Now don't get me wrong, women of APF, I've seen the photos and read the posts. I enjoy them, BUT I also know that a horse is not a stuffed teddy bear or a toy dog to cart around in purse all day. The day will come that you want the now grown up foal to become a working partner and you've led it to believe for YEARS its role is to be petted and run over you for treats. Suddenly you have changed its role and didn't bother to warn him or prepare him for it. It is the spoiled horse that gets rough treatment to get them back into the frame of mind of working partnership with the human in charge of the agenda.

Rough treatment doesn't mean beating it or bloodying it up, it DOES mean that when a human says "move one foot to the right" the horse moves and moves when asked and not 20 minutes later with emphatic half-hearted slaps. Spoiled horses will rear, bite, kick, buck, strike, and if they are really in shock attack.

A foal raised with established roles of growing into a working partner is happier and easier to be around from the beginning. I haven't hit a colt in years for nipping or running into me. They have learned where they belong and that's the end of it. It isn't done with this advice of pinching, hitting, jerking, on and on that I read here. That's a spoiled horse and that is ROUGH treatment, but few here will admit to that and I'll bet this thread will get twice as long defending the actions of slapping a colt around or jerking his head off.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 01:45 PM

Clinton Anderson has a wonderful tape on foal handling. Getting them to move, respect your space, pick up their feet, get used to ropes, etc. I saw it on RFD TV and thought everyone with a foal should do a little 'self education' with it.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 02:24 PM

Candace, you are soooo right. I can not tell you how many spoiled "mamma's widdo babies" I have had come through here, for training and for breeding and they are simply the ugliest horses to deal with. They lack respect, have no ideal about equine social interaction and in some cases are down right dangerous. People need to know that these are not pets, they are horses (livestock) and by treating them like cuddley little dolls they are harming the horse's herd skills.

The worst horses I have had here were "imprinted" - these mares may be imprinted to their owner but let me tell you, they have a totally different reaction to other handlers. This is why the Zoos have taken a step back from how they used to view "imprinting" but it was all the rage at one time.

Ruining a horse emotionally can lead to a very sad life down the road.

Cindy

03-21-2007, 02:37 PM

Hard to see - but what can happen from harsh or improperly fitting head gear......she had this before I bought her.......no hair grows on that band.....

Lisa, that looks like a halter mark from a too small halter being left on. Training headgear would not be used that high on the nose.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 02:43 PM

snaffles are one of the nastiest pieces of metal I have ever seen used. They react like a nut cracker against the horses jaw in rough hands... Now it may not have been designed to be abusive but I have seen them be very abusive..

To say that the the pics of the nose bands that you have COULD be abusive in bad hand is no different than say a snaffle COULD be abusive if bad hands.

I have seen non-Paso Fino trainers tie horses heads to a saddle with a snaffle bit and turn it loose with little or no give, each time the horse tries to use it's neck for balance or to lengthen it's reach the snaffles acts like a vice on the jaw reminding it to bring it's head back.

I did not see any nails that you spoke of in the equipment you saved pictures of.

I have seen halters left on horses that leave permanent rub marks, and much worse. I doubt a halter was ever meant to be abusive but in an idiots hands it can do a lot of damage.

And once again, you try to shock people with writing about this abuse and blood but just walked away talking about how bad it was.

Your admitting it happens and taking pictures of tack that is not even on horses does nothing positive to end this abuse you speak of, but walking away speaks volumes about it.

Copying a quote from the PPFTA and pasting it here does nothing to reinforce your statements unless you have stood up and filed a complaint against a member of PPFTA - if you want to prove all of the membes as frauds or what ever it is you want to do then go to their farms, where they show and actually record these abuses and report them.
DO something about it.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 02:48 PM

I do not agree with the advice on "self education", if you have a foal - and dont know how to handle them get some help from a real person.

These videos are edited people, it is not the complete start to finish of anything. They are cut and edited for time and for content so that the results match the "program".. Please do not live by a program unless you live with the clinician. Do the foal a favor and get help from a knowledgable person not a video.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 03:10 PM

Pinto...as has been pointed out to me on this subject, the rules against harsh training gear only apply to the show ring. They do not apply to the show grounds.

I couldn't disagree with you more about self-education. There are millions of horses in this country, and millions of horse owners. You really think they should all remain ignorant about handling and managing the animals they own? I really can't believe you are serious. EVERY person who owns a horse owes it to themselves, to their family, and to that horse to learn how to handle it and manage it safely.

You talk about the "mamma's widdo babies" and then expect people to treat them just that way because they don't know any better.

And, I'm sorry, but the WORST horses I've seen were those who have lost their minds by abusive training practices.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 03:18 PM

But what have YOU dont about it?

Mistreatment does not only apply to the showring.

Why wont you tell us what you did about it?

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-21-2007, 03:21 PM

Again!!!!!!! another fascianting thread!!!!!!!

I could not agree more with all these stupid devices and methods!!!!!!!!

I agree with most of pictures they are severe.......... but also a very comon devices used is the LITLLE GOOD LOOKING THIN ROPE HALTERS that comes in different colors (how CUTE) that it seems to be the fashion....... now days.......

YOU CAN REALLY harm a horse with those!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and yet they look so milld. I will like to hear also more on those............

CarolU

03-21-2007, 03:24 PM

These videos are edited people, it is not the complete start to finish of anything. They are cut and edited for time and for content so that the results match the "program".. Please do not live by a program unless you live with the clinician. Do the foal a favor and get help from a knowledgable person not a video.

And you can state this is unequivical fact, having never been to a Clinton Anderson clinic, or seen the video???

I am humbled... :not worthy :not worthy I had no idea you were THAT GOOD.

Cindy

03-21-2007, 03:29 PM

but also a very comon devices used is the LITLLE GOOD LOOKING ROPE HALTER that it seems to be the fashion....... now days.......

YOU CAN REALLY harm a horse with those!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and yet they look so milld. I will like to hear also more on those............

I agree with you there, Caliber. And these are used by all the "natural" horse trainers as well. They control by putting more pressure in a controlled area because they are so thin and stiff. Thay can be VERY harmful if used incorrectly. They are much more severe than a nylon halter and I would only use one on a horse that pulls on the halter and then only to lighten the horse up and go back to the nylon.

Carol, yes, the rules against tack only apply in the show ring. However, horse abuse does not only apply to the show ring. A horse that is bleeding beause of harsh treatment would most definitely be considered abuse and the steward should have been contacted. But you did not know that the rules regarding tack only applied to while the horse were being shown at the time that you claim to have seen such abuses occuring as we had that discussion AFTER the fact. So that still does not explain why you did not do anything about the abuses that you claim to have seen. Again, Carol, what did you do? Anything?

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-21-2007, 03:33 PM

And also Cindy some of those point are directly on the un-protective nerves......... SPEAKING OF DAMAGES GALORE FOR LIVE.........

Saludos

SandyMM

03-21-2007, 03:34 PM

Looks like a 'put up or shut up' situation to me.... ;-)

[...just sitting on the sidelines watching the 'X-spurts' hash it out..... ;-) ]

Mellifluous

03-21-2007, 03:35 PM

Looks like a 'put up or shut up' situation to me.... ;-)

[...just sitting on the sidelines watching the 'X-spurts' hash it out..... ;-) ]

pulls up a chair beside Sandy *passes the popcorn* :Jerry

Cindy

03-21-2007, 03:36 PM

And also Cindy some of those point are directly on the un-protective nerves......... SPEAKING OF DAMAGES GALORE FOR LIVE.........

Yeah, imagine what kind of damage could be done by one of those halters if a horse that was not well broke to tie pulled back severely on one of them. :mad: Ouch!

paintedhorizon

03-21-2007, 03:49 PM

I know Hastflicka on here has been IN a Clinton Anderson clinic herself and Clinton really liked her paso!

I love Clinton myself.

These videos are edited people, it is not the complete start to finish of anything. They are cut and edited for time and for content so that the results match the "program".. Please do not live by a program unless you live with the clinician. Do the foal a favor and get help from a knowledgable person not a video.

And you can state this is unequivical fact, having never been to a Clinton Anderson clinic, or seen the video???

I am humbled... :not worthy :not worthy I had no idea you were THAT GOOD.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 03:51 PM

So, you really want me to send all this to the Georgia Humane Society? Okay...if you insist.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 03:56 PM

Carol - why do you direct your attacks at me? You dont know me. My statement to you stands firm and it is the only thing I that is directed at you - WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU WITNESSED ABUSE? I do attend clinics, I go to a wide variety of them and I have a whole arsenal of videos. From reining, cutting, horse health etc etc.. but I also know a gimmick when I see one and I know that not all horses are the same. I dont fall back on one clinician, and I certainly dont use videos to learn something I have never done before - I take instruction and/or lessons or work directly with the professional so that it is a real experience not a staged one. That way if the horse hasnt seen the video - I can actually respond to what it is doing.
There are many great books and videos that can be used as referance but please do not self educate when it comes to your horses future.

TrueStepPaso

03-21-2007, 03:57 PM

No, Pinto...lets all here about what YOU have done about it...

So, what abuse have YOU reported?

And for the record, you absolutely came off as a defender of these harsh practices:EVERYTHING we as people due to horses is abuse... Shaking things at them repeatedly to "desensitize" them, working them hard, only to get them to cool down, confine them in less than hundreds of acres and on and on. I have seen a horses mind blown without severe equipment.

This basically says, "What's the big deal? According to me, we all abuse on some level...and I've seen horse's flip out over "nothing" apparently, so why not use that equipment..."

Also, I just have to say something to this.....
I have seen a leather bosal raw a horse in a very short period of time, not because the rider was severe but because the soft part of the jaw does not get exposed to friction.... just as spring hands working a screwdriver will blister... It has to be fine tuned so it is the hands far more than the equipment.

Skin covered in FUR does not relate well to soft, human hands. What you wrote there made NO sense to me....this has never happened to me before in ANY headgear. This happens for two reasons, and two reasons ONLY....your hands are too HEAVY, or, the equipment does not fit well/eqipments a peice of crap. As far as I'm concerned, you contradicted yourself...1st stating that the "soft part of the jaw" was at fault for not being used to "friction"...then you stated that it is the hands that need to be "fined tuned", not the equipment. I think you were right the second time.

the horse was not created to be kept in smallish paddocks and fed a couple of times a day - there are degrees of abuse but I bet the horse doesnt appreciate any of it.

My horses appreciate me, because I treat them VERY well, and respect that they are HORSES. They are in a 13 acre field 24/7, and I have very light hands, and a balanced seat. If you stated this remark, then you must get this feeling of being "unappreciated" from your horses. Don't paint everyone with the same brush....

snaffles are one of the nastiest pieces of metal I have ever seen used. They react like a nut cracker against the horses jaw in rough hands

This is a common statement amongst ppl who don't understand the purpose of different communication tools (bits), nor their function. Unless you're standing beneath the horse while working with a snaffle, then it does NOT act like a nut cracker. :roll: For the love of....do you know how a snaffle is supposed to work? The pressure is mainly at the corners of their mouth.... while it rests on the bars, when activated, it is pulled back, NOT DOWN. :-? Not to mention, if you're horse is acting like its "nutcracking" him, then you need to re-educate your hands.

I did not see any nails that you spoke of in the equipment you saved pictures of.

Ummm...you need to take a look again. 1st picture, second piece of "equipment" (the thicker, darker one).....

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 04:02 PM

That is what it says - in the wrong hands these things are abusive..

I have not seen the type of abuse that Carol speaks of at Nationals or in other venues.. my previous post states what I did do when I noticed things (I went to the steward).

If I see blood flowing you can be I am not walking away and talking about it 2 years later after having done nothing...

Keep swinging.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 04:05 PM

TrueStepPaso - I didnt say my horses experienced those things so please do not state I need to change my hands.

Terry Wallace

03-21-2007, 04:20 PM

Holey Smokes!!!! CALIBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are in complete agreement :jawdrop

About rope halters.....!!!!

I do not like them AT ALL...... I do not use them...I bought ONE a long time ago (when they were first "all thye rage")....I did not like it...and I told the prez of our Colorado region she could have it when I saw her looking at them at Denver horse expo!

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 04:22 PM

I looked at those halters and bought one a while back - like Terry. Those pressure points are so sensitive - talk about a short cut to see a result.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 04:25 PM

Pinto...perhaps you need to re-read this thread from the start. It started about the selling and use of serettas. Unless you use serettas or the other harsh gear in the pictures that are sold at Paso Fino shows, this thread is NOT ABOUT YOU. It is only personal to you because you chose to take it that way - or maybe because you DO use the 'gimicks' and are taking it personally. I don't know.

You realize there are over 8,000 members of PFHA...I would say almost all of them own horses. There are probably 2-3 times that many Paso owners who are not members of PFHA. Anyway you look at it, there are just too many Paso Finos for you PERSONALLY, as the ONLY acceptable 'expert' to go and start every one of each year's foals. Are you willing to fly all over the country and teach owners to halter, handle, tie, and pick up feet on all of their babies...for the same cost as a VHS or DVD?? Or even FREE RFD TV?? You obviously think you are the only one qualified to do this.

What do you think...probably less then 10% of Paso Fino owners use professional trainers? So what about the rest? I guess the rest aren't smart enough to own horses...
:roll:

CarolU

03-21-2007, 04:29 PM

PS...there is more then one kind of snaffle bit now. You don't HAVE to use the 'nutcracker' single joint snaffle. But, I guess if you're willing to turn a blind eye to training with metal pinch nose bands, a nutcracker is probably an improvement.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 04:30 PM

I didnt say a pro PF trainer, I just said a pro - Carol when YOU use the "you" and bowing emoticon and sarcasm it is pointed directly at me.

Noone has said anyone needs to go to a pro PF trainer for halter breaking.

TrueStepPaso

03-21-2007, 04:33 PM

Rope halters are fine....if you have light hands, then they won't be an issue....I think they are a wonderful tool.

But, I do hate it when ppl only buy them because they think it's the cool thing to do.....you can always tell who they are too, because they have NO idea on how to properly tie it. :roll:

CarolU

03-21-2007, 04:36 PM

I didnt say a pro PF trainer, I just said a pro - Carol when YOU use the "you" and bowing emoticon and sarcasm it is pointed directly at me.

Yes, that comment was directed directly at you....I've honestly never met someone before who can state emphatically that a video is edited and wrong, without having seen it before. I am amazed that that is humanly possible.

Noone has said anyone needs to go to a pro PF trainer for halter breaking.

Clinton Anderson IS a professional trainer.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 04:38 PM

Carol you are just so good at those partial statement - you keep doing it and doing it... good job

But hardly reflects someones complete statement...

Terry Wallace

03-21-2007, 04:44 PM

Lisa, that looks like a halter mark from a too small halter being left on. Training headgear would not be used that high on the nose.

I must agree with Cindy's observation. I have a stallion here who had a weanling halter left on him until he was a yearling....by his breeder.
there is limited hair growth there due to scarring...and a dent that will be there for life. It is high on his face too, as their head gets longer as they grow.

I was disgusted when I picked the horse up... the breeder said "it will go away" and I said...NOPE..it will always have a dent there ...and it does. he will soon be six years old.

Abby...don't for a minute think that I do not know how to tie a rope halter.
I do not like a thin rope over a nose bone with 1/8 inch of skin over the bone...as halters go...I DO consider them HARSH...they can and DO cut noses... just think about it... When a well meaning person goes and buys a rope halter...ties their horse up, horse gets spooked and pulls hard on the halter in the opposite direction of where its tied....you think that horse cannot suffer damage from that rope???? Not only at the poll, but also on the nose..... JMO.. I won't use one. I won't risk it even on a horse who "knows" how to stand tied quietly. For me, a flat leather or web halter is always preferred.

As a side note...many people don't even realize you need to TEACH a horse to stand tied quietly...they don't just "do it"...

CarolU

03-21-2007, 04:58 PM

Isn't this an interesting resemblence?

http://medieval-castles.org/media/thumbscrew2.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115Torture1.jpg

You know, the human race hasn't changed that much!

For what it's worth, I don't tie or trailer with rope halters, but I do use them for training and they are very effective and very humane. The kindness is in the RELEASE. Soft nylon gives instantly when you relieve pressure.

I agree with you Terry...most people fail to teach their horses to tie and stand tied.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 05:03 PM

OK - so how do you attach that to the bridle?
What breed was it used on?

TrueStepPaso

03-21-2007, 05:03 PM

Exactly.....and I wasn't thinking of you, Terry, when I mentioned the tying thing :lol: ....... ;-)

You're right about the rope halters being appropriate only for horses who really know how to give to pressure...and the teaching to stand tied..........oh heck, while I'm at it, I might as well let it be known that I agree with what you and Cindy think about those marks being from a halter that was too small. I've got one of those horses at my barn right now who has permanent marks identical to that from an old, tight, nylon halter "injury".

Fuego

03-21-2007, 05:06 PM

Tying a horse with a rope halter is as moronic as using reins attached to a bit to tie a horse. That is NOT their intended use ( not that people don't do it).
Rope halters and imprinting are wonderful training tools when applied PROPERLY, like ANY training tool. But can easily be detrimental /dangerous when used in ignorance.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 05:08 PM

I think that is the point many of us were making - proper application, but appearantly it is only for equipment chosen by a select few.. pressure points and other techniques can be used as long it is with the marketed equipment.

It is still better to use proper halters and proper training to halter break a horse.

It is still better to use quiet soft hands to keep a hose supple and behaved.

But there will always be those that take short cuts - and all of these quick fix pieces of equipment are designed for that purpose.

There will always be those that see but ignore abuse and walk away.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 05:17 PM

Pinto..those are THUMB SCREWS in the first picture. They were used on humans...back when we tortured each other.

Since you're now calling these gimicks just using pressure points, care to tell me just HOW a horse holds its head to get release from one of these??

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115Torture_3.jpg

And unless I'm mistaken...isn't this a legal piece of equipment?

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 05:21 PM

So your picture is relevent how (I actually knew what it was)
That was sarcasm Carol..

I think the humane halters you use are also gimmicks - the pressure applied to the bosal through the reins is the same as the pressure (excpet to the poll and jaw ouch) the halter applies when you apply pressure to the lead.. so when either the lead or the reins are loosened, tada - no more pressure.

Unlike the thumb screws which use ACTUAL screws, the head raisers, bosals etc are attached to REINS not screws

So who did you report the abuse to?

CarolU

03-21-2007, 05:37 PM

We weren't talking about bosals...at least not the leather ones. We were talking about torture devices...which you have to admit, at least in the middle ages, we called them troture devices. Now we call them "training gear."

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 05:39 PM

Carol the last picture you posted is the curb of a bosal - what do you call it? How do you think it is used? It is not strapped down tight - it is used as a curb... and probably milder than the fools who dont know how to use a chain curb chain on any bit - too much pressure = pain
Get off the reins..

Who did you call to see the abuse?

Mellifluous

03-21-2007, 05:49 PM

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e119/andysnaps/cat_carrier.jpg

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 05:53 PM

http://www.pintopaso.com/rollonfloor1.gif

I could use some of those to remove the unwanted strays that the locals leave running and breeding at will. I hate the smell of cat in my barn. I would love to "tote"some of them to the vet to get fixed and find new homes. They're to wild to trap and kill the wild bunnies running around.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 05:55 PM

You'll have to excuse me Pinto...the abuse I saw was in the barns. The show stewards only have authority to resond to what is the arena. The rule book only applies to the arena.

I can't have any respect for an organization that has a code of ethics that is as thin as the electrons it exists on. There is such a thing as peer review and peer pressure to correct problems. Instead of defending these practices, one would think you'd want to end them. Improve all of your reputations. I have never seen so many people who profess to love horses, yet apparently find this equipment acceptable. It actually is a relief so few claim to be 'horsemen.'

Yes Caliber, I know there are some who practice Doma Docil and train humanely, there are even some who have adopted natural horsemanship techniques and use them now. There is hope.

Terry Wallace

03-21-2007, 06:15 PM

Hey Mitch buddy.....LOTS of morons own horses and only use rope halters to TIE with :D :D

I see them a LOT on horses tied to trailers at trail rides!

As for me..I just use a flat halter...to train, to tie, to do everything with!

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 06:18 PM

Carol with all due respect - YOU chose to do nothing. General rules (Chapter one) do not apply only to the show ring.

Chapter 1 II B. Welfare of Breed Paramount. In every
situation, the welfare of the breed shall be paramount over
all other considerations. The best interest of the Paso Fino
Horse must be the only criterion in all actions and decisions
of all owners, breeders, exhibitors, trainers, members and
employees of the
Association.

Chapter 1 III G. Unsportsmanlike Conduct. When an exhibitor,
owner or trainer is guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct, such
person is subject to disciplinary action by the PFHA,
including but not limited to, fines or suspensions.

Chapter 1 VII. Violations
A. General Definition. A violation is any act
prejudicial to the best interest of the Association
including, but not limited to, the following:
1. Acting, inciting or permitting any other
person to act in a manner contrary to the Rules of the
Association, or in a manner deemed improper, unethical,
dishonest, unsportsmanlike or intemperate, or prejudicial to
the best interests of the Association.
2. Committing any act or making a remark
during a show considered offensive or made with intent to
influence or cast aspersions on the judging.
3. Physical assault upon a person or cruelty
to a horse as defined in USEF Rules.
4. Failure to obey a penalty imposed by the Association.
__________________________________________________ ________

Chapter 1 IX erson has violated any rule or written policy of the
Association may file a complaint to that effect with the
Executive Director of the Association. In order for a
complaint, other than one which can be verified by credible
testing to be considered for investigation, it must be in
writing, signed and dated. The individual(s) making the
complaint must be prepared for full disclosure of the
complaint to the party(ies) concerned in the complaint and
must be prepared to appear at a hearing if it is deemed
necessary. The Executive Director, his/her staff or
designees, shall investigate any complaint and determine if
sufficient cause exists to convene a hearing before the
Hearing Committee. For this purpose, sufficient cause
exists if the investigation shows a significant likelihood
that a violation of a rule or written policy occurred. In
addition, two (2) members of the Executive Committee or the
President of the Association may request a hearing on a
complaint.

Terry Wallace

03-21-2007, 06:22 PM

And unless I'm mistaken...isn't this a legal piece of equipment?

Uh..why wouldn't this be legal? Its all in the ADJUSTMENT.....
For cryin' out loud!
You don't cinch something like that up tight...unless you are..to quote Mitch...."moronic"...

For the record....it is a type od barbada I would not use.

I think a lot of so-called trainers forget that "less is more"....
I have seen lots of short-cut trainers use this type of equipment...
If you are using gear like this...you need to "back up & punt"...JMO

britzlove

03-21-2007, 06:23 PM

First I have to say..

What is that thing in the archaic drawing? It looks alot like the blocks of woods with the screws I was trying to identify in the last thread on harsh devices on ebay...????

Now with regard to: Dom Vaquera

It's not exactly the same...but a good deal of my education came from this style. I'm not trying to go into history and adaptations that it has undergone and how it relates...but suffice to say the way I work horses is under this tradition..and much of what I have seen of traditional Colombian training definitions show to have been influenced under them...and if you accept that the Spanish were largely influencial bringing breeding stock...the similarities are not that hard to understand. (Sorry if that confuses anyone).

Next: To people on the list who haven't habitually read the entire list often for hours a day....occasionally a few of us need a good flaming discussion to get our kicks...don't be afraid to jump right in or talk to them about other subjects :D

Now:

I like a few others use methods that are firm...but not harsh. However...the very best horse training takes a long, long time. So, as I mentioned...I do use #1 a rawhide rope hand braided by a talented artisan. I have used it for years, went through extensive person to person as well as phone and internet training to use correctly. What I mean is I didn't just see one on TV and pick it up (not that I think you'd ever see a commercial for one because not just any joe will pay for one).
Then I do move to a rope halter for ground training, as well as regular leather and nylon halters. Yes, if a horse is tied I put a regular halter on. Some horses never need the rope halter for more than a few sessions....some need it a little longer. Depends on the "feel" of the horse (that is the willingness to react to pressure accordingly) However...I've never ever had to fret over hurting a horse with the rope halter because they've already pretty much figured the whole "feel" thing out.

Which leads me to:

Every single horse is different...every single time. Critical observation is a skill not gifted to everyone...though can be aquired if serious...IMO.

To say that every horse will stamp out of a training program of any type the same is folly. I don't see anything wrong with admitting that some horses need different things. I think they benefit. I think if a trainer is good at critical observation it shows.

Now...

Cindy :not worthy walking horse bits! Did you notice no one wanted to comment? I was so going to post pictures of walking horse bits and bike chain bits but it became apparent to me that it would go ignored probably. :-?

So....no what I have to say is:

I know walking horse people that will tell you they can make anything gait if you jack it's head up right...not saying that I agree with them about the methods that would do it...or that I don't feel like taking a shower after talking to them...but I know people that can do all kinds of things to horses to make a few more bucks.

Walking horses are mostly dumb enough in my opinion to tolerate long elevator bits...(don't worry I've got the suit on)

Put a walking horse bit on a good QH and watch how quickly you get bunching of the spine...pinned ears...stiff neck..now why is this? Because like the Grand National car...the Walking Horse is built to go straight...and the Lambourgini hugs the curves at high speeds....you need balanced sharp small turns on a QH, not on a walker. This is why I make walking horse people spit nails at me when I tell them they'll never seriously compete with the QHs in sports like barrels, penning etc. They ain't built to bend...

The paso fino...not like any other horse I've personally encountered...they are different...they are better. You're not going to get me to believe that the gait can be tip-top finessed in every paso fino with only a simple soft jaiqima...unless like the vaquera...you spend alot of time and complete dedication..and then maybe I don't know. I don't see why it wouldn't work...it might...I need to learn that too.

The problem...training does have to progress in a reasonable amount of time when you are training for others or selling the babies. I'd never call a horse that was under saddle less than a few months broke...and it all deends on the amount of daily training and quality of training.

So I propose an experiment:

What would the result of traditional bridle training be on a paso fino? I'll do it one better and say that I'll try it on my colt...he's already had the basics anyway...might make him usless to show...but he's not in any situation where he has to. Would anyone be interested in seeing the results? I have my own thoughts about how that will work out...but it would be an experiment. I'd be interested to hear what people think?

I've seen bad trainers and I've seen good ones..and I've seen them all use lots of different stuff.

I did not see any blood at Nationals, I saw some incorrect handling and really bad riding...but to say that it was pervasive? Not IMO.

I second or third or whatever the thoughts on if people see abuse and walk away, that's cowardice. I'd be one of the ones that would be making a scene....(and as I've mentioned on the other well-loved slaughter threads...I wouldn't hesitate to jump right in the middle of it..and I have...I've never been jailed or sued yet...but it would be possible). For sure you can be certain that if I ever saw blood...there wouldn't be time for me to think about the consequences of my interferrence.

Gosh...I could go on forever but shouldn't...

Britz

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 06:28 PM

That's what I said Terry, it's all in the application - that curb is just one more example of a short cut... less time for those impatient trainers.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 06:36 PM

Well said Britzlove -

Cindy

03-21-2007, 06:36 PM

You'll have to excuse me Pinto...the abuse I saw was in the barns. The show stewards only have authority to resond to what is the arena. The rule book only applies to the arena.

That statement is absolutely untrue, Carol, as has already been pointed out and the rules cited. And if you had cared enough to have actually TRIED to do something about the alleged abused that you observed, you would know that. But you did not try, did you? You went on with your life at the show and then went home and then got on the BB and started bad-mouthing Paso Fino trainers.

As I stated before, I have gone to the steward on more than one occasion to report abuse at a show and the abuse was NEVER occuring inside the arena. I have reported the abuse to the steward (did my job) who then wrote the person up and filed charges against the person (they did their job) who was then taken to a hearing and suspended for quite a long time (hearing committee did their job). So, what did YOU do, Carol?

Oh, and, there IS no excuse.

TrueStepPaso

03-21-2007, 06:46 PM

However...I've never ever had to fret over hurting a horse with the rope halter because they've already pretty much figured the whole "feel" thing out.

Exactly. Horses need to "graduate" to rope halters, imo. And if they are thoroughly taught to yeild to pressure, then you should have NO problems with those horses being tied - with an emergency release (always, with any type halter) of course......it's not the halters, it's the ppl on the other end of the lead line.

TrueStepPaso

03-21-2007, 06:49 PM

Oh, and by the way, Mel....between "muffin tops", vomiting at Ricky Martin, and now this "cat tote" thing...... :lol: ......you're a riot!

Cindy

03-21-2007, 06:50 PM

......it's not the halters, it's the ppl on the other end of the lead line.

That's pretty much what we have been saying about tack in general. Though I personally don't know what would possess anyone to use spikes or nails or anything with sharp points on a horse's face. Beyond that, any tack used is only as kind as the user's hands.

Fuego

03-21-2007, 06:56 PM

Terry, I don't use a rope halter on a regular basis. But have found use for them.

Recently I needed to work with a 16h+ / 1200lb+ broodmare that at some point in her life realized that with her size and stregnth could ignore a normal nylon or leather halter at her discretion and did so.

It can be rather difficult communicating to a horse like this when she choses to ignore you and walk away ( even when you are holding the halter or lead) whenever she chose to.

I didn't need to jerk or be harsh with the rope halter to get results. But I wasn't about to try to out muscle this big mare as she drug me around the stall at will.

The rope halter allowed me to get her attention and enough respect in order to do the needed ground training with her. Her nose was not sored, she lost no hair on her nose, and the rope halter use was discontinued when she learned TO respond to a regular nylon/leather halter.

Cindy

03-21-2007, 07:00 PM

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 07:01 PM

Proper application. Makes sense to me, a horse learned that size and lack of respect allowed her to do what she wanted. Applied pressure to communicate to her that she must refocus to learn.

Now can someone tell me why a horse that already does everything it is asked in a regular halter and yields to pressure is put in a rope halter? This is not a sarcastic question, I really do want to know, is it to reinforce previous lessons?

britzlove

03-21-2007, 07:04 PM

Awww see everythings Zen again :oops:

Cindy

03-21-2007, 07:15 PM

Told you. :rofl

Terry Wallace

03-21-2007, 07:16 PM

Mitch.... I use my longe cavason for that! Not saying rope halters have "no use"...just that I have a better thing to use....for myself..IMO....

I grew up learning to use a longe cavason...so I like 'em..I'm comfortable with 'em and they don't mark a horse like a single strand rope *could*...

Fuego

03-21-2007, 08:09 PM

True Terry, your longe cavasson would not have marked this mare's nose. However, the cavasson likely would have marked YOU when she slammed a cavasson ring into your forehead. :razz: :razz: :lol:
( I'm joking....)

Terry Wallace

03-21-2007, 08:12 PM

You SLAY me Fuego!

I don't LET nosebands that close to my head!

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 08:14 PM

Terry do you use a BIG stick to keep the noseband far away?

"a valuable extension of your arm and will be used in many situations to accelerate results" edited to add the part that didnt paste when it should have
http://www.pintopaso.com/rollonfloor1.gif

Terry Wallace

03-21-2007, 08:41 PM

Uh..no...! In fact...I don't OWN a "big stick" Or a "carrot stick" or any kind of "gimmic stick"...

I'm an old fashioned trainer with no "monty halters", No Parelli "schticks" no Clinton "tie rings", and no Lyons "blown out ankle" from repeated circles in a round pen....day after day after day!

My round pen work is over in three to four days max....

I use crossties or single poles to tie to....

I use "regular, mundane"..flat webbing or leather halters to tie with....

I use a longe whip as a "cue stick" and rarely need that as most the time my EYE and a LOOK and my body position...is all that is needed to urge a longing horse forward....

Go Figure!

Wanna know what I have to use these days???....that would be a freakin'
STEP to get on my horses........ bad knees run in my family!

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 08:44 PM

Glad you "got it" even when I didnt paste it properly... I knew you wouldnt take it the wrong way :D ..

Well I dont use a step yet but I am having trouble jumping up on the taller ones bareback... Hope it gets better when I loose the winter pounds.

Cindy

03-21-2007, 09:32 PM

I can't for the life of me understand why every trainer/clinician these days needs a stick. I have never needed a stick for anything and my arm is a long enough extension for my hand. That's why God put it there. If I had to hold on to some stick all day I would go crazy.

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-21-2007, 09:38 PM

That's why God put it there. If I had to hold on to some stick all day I would go crazy.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
GOD IS WISE!!!!!! jejejejejeje I am very content here :lol: :lol: :lol:

Saludos

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 09:42 PM

used in many situations to accelerate results"

Is this the same as a "short cut"

Cindy

03-21-2007, 09:49 PM

Is this the same as a "short cut"

Quite possibly. :confused :rofl

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-21-2007, 09:50 PM

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Stef, just think HARD!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

CarolU

03-21-2007, 09:50 PM

Now can someone tell me why a horse that already does everything it is asked in a regular halter and yields to pressure is put in a rope halter? This is not a sarcastic question, I really do want to know, is it to reinforce previous lessons?

I'm not sure who uses it that way...I use mine quite the opposite, I start the horse in a rope halter and once they learn to give to pressure, to lead, and to follow a feel, I move them to a nylon halter. The only thing I teach with a nylon halter is to tie, and that is because I do not feel rope halters are safe if a horse panics or fights.

I will say that I've gotten horses in here that were used to nothing but nylon halters and were heavy in them and would take their owners for a drag on a regular basis. They learned NOT to do that with a rope halter. Then they could safely go back to nylon.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 10:09 PM

That is what makes sense to me, thanks.. I was confused about the horses graduating to rope halters. I am thinking it means those that have learned to disrespect a regular halter and need a reminder.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 10:17 PM

Yes. I don't use mine as a halter at all. I use it for trainng only. I think those knot spots could get pretty sore in the vibration of a trailer. I know people who use theirs for everything, and don't seem to have any problem, but I am one of those people who get irratated by the labels in the collars of clothes. So I can imagine how uncomfortable a bunch of knots would be all the time.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 10:20 PM

Felix I was thinking hard, didnt you see the smoke????

Cindy

03-21-2007, 10:31 PM

There are people who use them for everything because that is all they see certain trainers using and said trainers sell them so people think that must be what they should use all the time.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 10:40 PM

Okay... I answered that question, so answer me THIS question. If the judging standard is supposedly based on "naturalness of the breed" but all this hardware is used on the nose and under the chin to push/pull and punish the horse into a tighter gait, then just 'what' is "natural" now? And when you look at these horses as potential breeding stock, how do defrintiate how much is genetics and how much is a sore nose?

Wouldn't it be more in compliance with the intent of the rule book and improving the breed IF the playing field were level. There is this quote from Britz:

You're not going to get me to believe that the gait can be tip-top finessed in every paso fino with only a simple soft jaiqima...

I mean all this 'pain' is just for one purpose. It's not to train the horse, it's not to teach it to stand for mounting or anything...it's only purpose is to 'finess' the gait. I've heard PF trainers say they can get anything to gait. With this kind of hardware used, I think I'd find a way to gait too.

Sooooo, my question is, "WHAT IS NATURAL" when so much is "Training"

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-21-2007, 10:52 PM

Felix I was thinking hard, didnt you see the smoke????

:lol: :lol: LOL!!!!

CarolU

03-21-2007, 10:53 PM

...and just for the record, when I saw the horse with the pinch nose gear on, I was standing between two PFHA judges while we discussed travel options around the hurricanes (it was right after Katrina and while the next storm was pounding Texas). I mentioned the nose piece to them, and got the same reaction I got here on the board...'big deal'...

The year before, I was upset about a horse being lunged while tied back to the saddle by the bit. Now this was done outside the Beef and Dairy barn right before the Championship class. The trainer was an exPFHA officer and he was chatting with the then-current President. The lunging went on for 20 minutes. Now tieing back by the bit IS against our rules, when done in a "excessive amount" but it fails to state what that is. Now, do you remember that conversation Cindy??? Because you told me that it was NOTHING and everyone does it.

So, that brings to mind just WHO to turn people in to. It is apparent that these are accepted practices. Either that or no one within PFHA cares.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 11:00 PM

I will answer for myself ONLY Carol. I do not train for fino or tighter, I ride to find out what the horse has to offer. I then use pretty standard tack to encourage proper balance and collection. Applying a "bump" to lift the head of a horse that has gotten heavy (just as you described using the rope halter on a horse that was heavy on the halter) is not abuse. It is a correction, just as the halter is a correction. Anyone who tells you that the knots or metal bumps on the rope halters dont inflict pain when the pressure is applied is lying. Learning what equipment is for and using it properly is not a bad thing all of the time

Not every person who has chosen to train PF chooses excessive force.
Those that choose excessive force to make $ or boost ego would do so in any breed... it is in their nature and desire, not in the breed. They would find heavier bits, longer shanks or what ever that breed uses.

Are there some that do yes - then we need to take them to task, and report them.

Is the abusive tack out there, sure - it's how people make money, commercial products and short cuts exist in all breeds. There are heavier bits, bigger pads, longer shanks, bigger knots on halters. In the wrong hands these things are dangerous, but as others pointed out they are not cinched down tight applying pressure for no reason we all understand the "release"

Natural, some PF are actually natural - I have a number of them... not everyone wants to change what the natural Paso has to offer.

You need to get over painting every Paso Trainer with your wide brush and take a proactive role in helping the breed identify the ones that are bad - and encouraging the one that are not abusive to educate where ever and when ever they have the opportunity.

Just as you dont know why some people use the rope halters all of the time, those of us that dont abuse or use excessive force on PF dont know why others do.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 11:01 PM

Well, since I asked that question, I might as well open ANOTHER can of worms and ask this one. I have been to many saddle fitting seminars and web sites. They ALL say the same thing, that the proper placement of a saddle is BEHIND the horse's shoulder blade so as not to inhibit movement. This puts the saddle well back of the withers.

But in the show ring I see many (most?) saddles way up to the withers and some even OVER the withers. What is the purpose of this?

CarolU

03-21-2007, 11:04 PM

Actually Pinto, your description of how you train is right in line with how I believe it should be trained...a bump and release. No need for harsh gear when your purpose is as you stated.

I do not believe I paint every trainer with the same stroke. Notice the words "many" and "some" in my posts. I certainly do not believe all trainers use these methods...I just do not understand why all 'real' trainers don't condemn them.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 11:07 PM

Again I will say Carol you chose not to submit a formal complaint. If other did not find it offensive (I was not there) they would not file a complaint. Only YOU can file on what you see. I personally would have done it and would have pics and/or video to back it up. I'm sorry you felt your complaint and reaction would not be accepted. It has been my experience when the $ are sent in and the complaint made the decision for a hearing is made and all parties notified. If the decision is in agreement with you it moves on to a hearing...

Cindy

03-21-2007, 11:11 PM

Okay... I answered that question, so answer me THIS question.

You answered WHAT question. You did not answer any question. Are you in fairy land?

Then you say that you were standing with two judges and saw a piece of equipment on a horse that YOU found to be excessive but they did not care. Was this were all the blood was? Because a piece of tack in and of itself does not constitute abuse. But you HAVE STATED that you saw blood flowing and from how you make it sound the blood was flowing freely. Were you with the two judges when you saw the blood? Or is this a totally seperate occasion where you saw a piece of equipment? If it WAS when you saw the blood, why did you not go to the steward REGARDLESS of what the judges thought? Blood is blood. Responsibility is responsibility. Or does the blood not pertain here. See, you talk about so many different things at the same time and lump them all into one thing that it is some times hard to keep up with EXACTLY what you are referin to. But I guess that just works in your favor, doesn't it? Keep the rhetoric flowing so that all anyone can figure out is that Paso Fino trainers are bad, Paso Fino judges are bad. Only Carol is good in the world.

As for the TOTALLY new converstaion that you just brought up, of course I remember our conversation about lunging a horse while bitted and I will tell you again the same thing that I told you then. Lunging a horse while allowing it to work the bit is a practice that is used in most all of the classic training methods. It is a way to teach the horse to round it's back and be supple on the bit and flexible while doing ground work. It has been used for CENTURIES in dressage training. Just because YOU do not like it does not make it cruel and unusual punishment. It is a training tool.

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-21-2007, 11:12 PM

Carol, TIPS TIPS TIPS of what I do!!!!!!!!! the national show and other big shows in our area are taped........... for those horses in the class that are bleeding that are not many, but yes is there......... you buy the TAPE, here in my area the cost is $50.00 for the class......... that is your evidence.

Then you head to the show office and have them contact the STEWARD!!!!!! and then file it....... is going to cost you money...... if after a while you do not hear a response, you contact USEF!!!!!!!!!!!

For the ones outside the ring, make sure that you keep your digital video camera in your pocket...... record the evidence.....

You must take the initiative or no one will............so, take the initiative, and proceed thru the proper chanels.

Cindy is not my favorite in this forum, and I am sure I am not hers either, I am honest!!!!!! But I dont think is appropiate to engage any member publicly in any past conversations.... dont think is right, sorry.

What makes you think that anyone will like a free load............ you must take the initiative, responsibility and be prepared for a batlle.........

Saludos!!!!!!!

Cindy

03-21-2007, 11:19 PM

Brigitte

03-21-2007, 11:20 PM

I doubt that there are horses bleeding in class. Not here anyway. They are supposed to get checked. There was a case once when a trainer split open the tongue of a stallion. It was bleeding..and running blood. This stallion gets ridden with a HUGE bit. The trainer galloped him then pulled so hard that he split his tongue open.

One time, a trainer was using one of those barbadas with spike things, he uses it to keep the horse's head up. He had the barbada tight, and the horse had a wound because of it. A judge was there and told the trainer that he should loosen it, that he shouldn't have pressure on it at all times. The trainer then said I know, but I use it this way. The judge said Oh ok, and walked away.

I've seen alot of barbadas, some of them that actually have horse hair and blood on them. Not a pretty sight at all. If you should comment on the things they do, they'd tell you that you don't understand, that that is how they train.

Pinto Paso

03-21-2007, 11:24 PM

Bridgette, that is not a trainer. That is the kind of person that Carol speaks of and those that allow it are cowards. Perhaps you dont have an association where you can actually lodge a formal complaint.

This is the kind of person that needs to be removed.

CarolU

03-21-2007, 11:26 PM

You answered WHAT question. You did not answer any question. Are you in fairy land?

I answered the question about the use of rope halters. Maybe YOU are in fairyland and not reading all the threads.

[qoute]
Then you say that you were standing with two judges and saw a piece of equipment on a horse that YOU found to be excessive but they did not care. Was this were all the blood was? Because a piece of tack in and of itself does not constitute abuse. But you HAVE STATED that you saw blood flowing and from how you make it sound the blood was flowing freely. Were you with the two judges when you saw the blood? Or is this a totally seperate occasion where you saw a piece of equipment? If it WAS when you saw the blood, why did you not go to the steward REGARDLESS of what the judges thought? Blood is blood. Responsibility is responsibility. Or does the blood not pertain here. See, you talk about so many different things at the same time and lump them all into one thing that it is some times hard to keep up with EXACTLY what you are referin to. But I guess that just works in your favor, doesn't it? Keep the rhetoric flowing so that all anyone can figure out is that Paso Fino trainers are bad, Paso Fino judges are bad. Only Carol is good in the world.

[/quote] You seem to have a personal problem here Cindy. Their attitude was just like yours "It is a training tool." And no, I didn't have a video camera to record it and take proof to the show staff. I had witnesses who DIDN'T CARE.

As for the TOTALLY new converstaion that you just brought up, of course I remember our conversation about lunging a horse while bitted and I will tell you again the same thing that I told you then. Lunging a horse while allowing it to work the bit is a practice that is used in most all of the classic training methods. It is a way to teach the horse to round it's back and be supple on the bit and flexible while doing ground work. It has been used for CENTURIES in dressage training. Just because YOU do not like it does not make it cruel and unusual punishment. It is a training tool.

It is STILL AGAINST OUR RULES....Tell me where the release is when the horse is tied back like that? You go on and on about how the spade bit is only as harsh as the hands that do/don't provide the release. But you're mighty quiet when there is NO RELEASE for the horse. For 20 minutes.

What is pattently obvious is that it will take video evidence to an outside agency to change the PF show world, because it is entrenched. You know, there really is no arguement when people from other breeds say our gait is not natural and is forced...because so much of it is just that.

[/quote]

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-21-2007, 11:26 PM

Cindy is not my favorite in this forum, and I am sure I am not hers either

Why would you think that, Caliber? I have no idea why you would have a problem with me but if you do, OK. I don't really care. But I have not now nor have I ever had any problem with you. I am glad that you came to this forum and think you contribute to it. Beyond that, I don't even know you personally so I do not know why you would think I have some kind of dislike for you.

Cindy!!!!! Clearly said on this forum!!!!!!!! You all!!!! know my Believes and Passions and I truly understand the contraversy that i have created for many........But I stillrespect that, but no matter how far out I can be......... respect is always expected..... that is all.

Cindy

03-21-2007, 11:36 PM

Carol, the question that you never answered is the one that we keep asking, why did you not do something if you saw ABUSE? A piece of equipment is not abuse. Did you see BLOOD when you were with these judges? See, you say you answer questions but you do not. You change the subject.

As for the lunging, there is release because when one works the horse bitted up, one positions the reins so that when the horse is in the proper carriage, there is no pressure on the bit. The horse gives itself the release by not putting pressure on the rein. The same as when a rider is riding a horse in a collected manner and softens the hands to give the release. Giving release does not mean that you throw the reins away when the horse gives. It means that you release the pressure. You go from hard to soft hand. This is pretty basic stuff. I cannot help it if you do not know it by now.

Cindy

03-21-2007, 11:38 PM

Cindy!!!!! Clearly said on this forum!!!!!!!! You all!!!! know my Believes and Passions and I truly understand the contraversy that i have created for many........But I stillrespect that, but no matter how far out I can be......... respect is always expected..... that is all.

Caliber, I have no idea what this means. Do you care to be more specific? You have created absolutely NO controversy for me. I have no feeling for you one way or the other.

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-21-2007, 11:42 PM

Pasogirlz

03-21-2007, 11:42 PM

Is it just me or is it hot in here today?

http://bestsmileys.com/signs2/6.gif
http://bestsmileys.com/signs5/17.gif

SandyMM

03-21-2007, 11:48 PM

Is it just me or is it hot in here today?
Same ol' same ol'.... :dead horse

CarolU

03-22-2007, 12:16 AM

Sandy and Lori...you are quite right...this has been hijacked and beaten to death several times over.

Cindy

03-22-2007, 12:21 AM

Highjacked? I don't recall anyone changing the subject.

Pinto Paso

03-22-2007, 12:36 AM

Carol, when will you admit that you allowed the abuse of those horses to continue by not reporting it?

You have switched subjects more often than I can even count.. We come and answer your questions as best as we can.

You are evasive and accusatory and offer no explanation for your statements.

As for the saddle question (sorry I was out riding) to borrow a line from you, I dont know why other people put their saddles where they do.. I didnt put them there.

Now for the saddle clinic, was it with Paso saddles? Did you ask about saddles with this type of tree? Did the clinician know what type of trees the Paso saddles are built on?

Is the position of paso saddles now abusive?

Abejita

03-22-2007, 12:37 AM

HIJACK!!
Ohhh I think the fire in here is JUST about hot enough to BBQ that Mini Mule that Mel is gonna try to flip...Where is the coleslaw and the beer man?????

Pinto Paso

03-22-2007, 12:39 AM

OK - flipping a mule is just plain abusive :D

Cindy

03-22-2007, 12:43 AM

OK - flipping a mule is just plain abusive

:rofl :rofl

Abejita's attempt at highjacking thwarted. We are still on topic. Good try Abejita.

P.S. I am still bringing the beer.

Abejita

03-22-2007, 12:49 AM

I have always liked ya Cindy..even more so now that you are bringin' the beer!!!! 8-)

PLEASURE PASOFINO

03-22-2007, 01:12 AM

:compbash jejejeje

SandyMM

03-22-2007, 01:58 AM

Y'know, training is 'just' teaching - some people can teach a skill in 5 minutes that others can't teach in a year....

cowboy ed

03-22-2007, 02:36 AM

i use rope halters exclusively. i make them. i like them. i use the 5/16" soft nylon rope, and it has two strands on the noseband. they are not abusive.
i use a stick too. i use it because it is "handy" to use. i dont beat horses with it, but i will whack one if i need to. i can cue with a lunge whip or my hand, but i like my stick.
i dont use stuff that rubs a horse's chin raw, or stuff that rubs their nose raw.
i do use a myler comfort snaffle. it is a very nice bit, and very mild. horses like it.
i train a lot of horses. i get good results, and i enjoy what i do. i ride a lot of horses, and i ride a lot of miles.
i think i am a fairly normal person. i think a lot of ya'll are nuts! some of ya'll are some pretty serious nuts, maybe even certifiable, but i kind of enjoy hanging out with ya'll anyway!

TrueStepPaso

03-22-2007, 03:16 AM

Ed.... :lol:

I do NOT find rope halters abusive at all either. Like Fuego mentioned earlier, tying a horse up by the bit is the worst offense, imo.

Now can someone tell me why a horse that already does everything it is asked in a regular halter and yields to pressure is put in a rope halter?

For the answer, refer back to "Lisa aka Marci"'s picture. They are light, and don't rub hair off of the nose.

I was confused about the horses graduating to rope halters.

Horses should learn to give to pressure before you introduce a lighter, thinner headgear....I, personally, wouldn't want to START out with rope halter, just like I wouldn't want to start my horse in a thin bit. The rope halter just floats on their head, and should stay that light...not be introduced when they know nothing, and could pain themselves unnecessarily.

As far as saddles go....alot of ppl are completely clueless as to where the proper placement on each individual horse should be. And the Paso show world is at the bottom.....they practically ride on their necks - I swear some of those pommels actually were on the neck. What's next, riding on the poll? :shock: Don't those ppl have any idea how ignorant & ridiculous they look.....they're riding on the withers, and then there's a mile of topline trailing behind them. It makes me crazy.