Lord de Soberano [Archive] - American Paso Finos.com Forums

Candice Burger

03-23-2007, 03:48 PM

Currenlty there are no Lord offspring in the USA. I know of a few paso owners that have bred to Lord with some intentions of importing offspring later perhaps.

I will caution discussing prepotency when talking about a popular stallion that is bred allot. Numbers do not equate into prepotency. Prepotency is NOT about the ability to produce numbers and in those numbers produce winners. Statistics say it's inevitable particularly when the approach is biased. In this case the approach is biased. He belongs to a well-known trainer family, the stud fee is below cost, the stallion is made available to anyone (I'm finding this RARE in Puerto Rico), and most breeders are targeting the show ring.

When talking about production of winners, one MUST discuss both sides--who are the dams? I know a few lines that are nicking with Lord and some of the winners mentioned are mostly from these lines. The mare lines are also from horses that are claimed to be prepotent--Plebeyo and the Cuentas Claras families. Plebeyo is well known for his VERY correct conformation and his ability to pass it on. Is Farola a Lord mare or a Plebeyo mare as winner of Bellas Formas? I've seen enough Plebeyo and Brujo de Kofresi stock to suggest conformation may come from that line. The Cuentas Claras family can do no wrong when producing competitive fino show horses. The Kopeki/Cuentas Claras/Espectacular mares are outstanding producers.

Would Lord nick well with the PPR lines in the USA? Who knows because the USA lines are almost gone in PR and no one has ventured to begin the crosses to find out. Would Lord be a candidate as an outcross/out breeding for Colombian horses?

What if the stallion was not bred as much, was not well-known and the offspring not shown? Would he be prepotent? No offense but I've yet to see a PPR of quality that did not produce gait--what about the traits of the gait?

Prepotency is the measure of an individual's ability to consistently pass on specific traits that can be attributed to the individual and not other influences such as the dam, training, foal care, etc.

The traits of Lord that I like are color, height, temperament, and his front end action which is very distinctive. He has a very piston type movement using the elbow more than the shoulder. He is also refined in his movement probably from the Galana and Cibuco influence--a nice nick I think. He also carries the Noche Buena line through Raffles, Flicka, and Furioso; not to be ignored when looking at why he nicks so well with certain lines. Flicka is by Hercules which brings in Regalo. Furioso is Nochebuena and a mare by Indio. Hercules is Nochebuena X Felipa. Felipa is Regalo X Vincenta (an old Spanish line).

Marisol's pedigree http://www.tesiopower.com/pf/sixgen.aspx?hID=25387
Furioso's pedigree http://www.tesiopower.com/pf/sixgen.aspx?hID=23274

I've learned not to ignore Nochebuena nor to discount the Dije/Copita family particularly in mare lines. Indio not be confused with El Indio is from the Dije family. Baya and Quisqueya may be full sisters, but cannot confirm.

He is not as elegant as Controversia but few will be. Controversia is a genetic freak with his refinement. However Lord is no slouch with his refinement either. He presents very good phenotype for PPR. I think he lacks power in the rear but generally horses with very deliberate, delicate, refined movements are not powerhouses but ballerinas; his is very "fino" or finura in his style. The crosses with Plebeyo, Campanero, Don Toqui family and the Kopeki family will bring in the power. Under saddle, he has tremendous brios and is very responsive.

From what I can tell, he passes on good brios, the finura particularly his front end, size and color. If I were a USA breeder I would seriously consider him because he brings back the finura that the USA currently lacks and also adds the more piston movement that is rare. Although Controversia is more refined, Lord dominates with his ability to provide the front end mechanics that is popular in today's show ring.

http://www.pasopedigree.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2104
http://www.pasopedigree.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2045

Pinto Paso

03-23-2007, 04:15 PM

I was speaking about the offspring type when speaking of prepotency not the number of foals produced.

Hopefully this line will be represented in the USA in time.

Candice Burger

03-23-2007, 05:43 PM

Hey PP, I know but I think there was a confusion that prepotency meant show ring winners.

Most of the Lord offspring I've seen he lent his refinement, front end mechanics, brios, size and color. He has a noble character and seems to pass it on. Rayo de Luz is dynamic

Rayo de Luz from pasopedigree
http://www.pasopedigree.com/forum/uploaded/413-20060902210249.jpg

http://www.pasopedigree.com/forum/uploaded/413-20060902220447.jpg

Imagen de Lord (another Lord X Plebeyo cross)
http://www.pasopedigree.com/forum/uploaded/413-20060902210742.jpg

Consetida de Amor
http://www.pasopedigree.com/forum/uploaded/413-20060903013136.jpg

Alegria de Jibaro
http://www.pasopedigree.com/forum/uploaded/413-20060903013953.jpg

Pretensiosa de Lord
http://www.pasopedigree.com/forum/uploaded/413-20060903053656.jpg

Soberana de Lucero
http://www.pasopedigree.com/forum/uploaded/413-20060903053946.jpg

Candice Burger

03-23-2007, 06:04 PM

More Lord de Soberano horses--Thanks to Paso Pedigree and Charlie Barks for keeping his forum available. And many thanks for Ferrum for posting the pics to begin with.

Carito de MD
http://www.pasopedigree.com/forum/uploaded/413-20060903053946.jpg

http://www.pasopedigree.com/forum/uploaded/413-20060514204844.jpg

Rayo de Luz
http://www.pasopedigree.com/forum/uploaded/413-20060514205718.jpg

Codigo de Lord
http://www.pasopedigree.com/forum/uploaded/413-20060517013053.jpg

El Brian
http://www.pasopedigree.com/forum/uploaded/413-20060517212239.jpg

dcancel

03-23-2007, 08:16 PM

FYI: there are three mares being served by Lord via AI this spring (next month or two) here in the states, one in Fl and 2 in PA.

Denisse

Candice Burger

03-23-2007, 08:24 PM

:smilieparty

Good to hear Denisse--so could one of those mares in PA be yours??? I hope so!

Pinto Paso

03-23-2007, 09:42 PM

Thanks Candice..
We are considering a colt at this time..
Does anyone have shipping quarantine contact (bilingual) that they have personal experience with or know someone who used them?

Candice, if I find one want to do some brokering/arranging for me? I could fly you there or???

Rafael Arbelo

03-23-2007, 10:38 PM

I am happy to read Candice's post about this topic and let me add that when she referes to a "freak" in Contreversia's case, she is talking about "Controversia de Labriego", a stallion you have to see walking to understand what she is talking about. I will make sure to video tape him next time I go to Puerto Rico and post it here for everybody to see ... He is a Jewell, a Diamond, a Gold Bullion ... I can say without a doubt that his mechanics are simply AMAZING (including the best Colombian Horses you can think of ...)

BTW, Did you know he produces a lot of black color offspring? That's because of Carusso, his Grand Sire ...

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/Yumac/ControversiadeLabriegoPasoPedigree.jpg

Candice Burger

03-23-2007, 10:40 PM

There's an article in the 2nd issue of the PPR magazine that talks about it. Plan on at least $3000 to include quarantine, care, and all transportation. I don't have a scanner but can dig up the info for you. They can fly directly into Ocala, FL. Sweet for me since it's only a 3 hour drive to the airport.

And I believe Rafael Arbelo is investigating shipping by boat as well. There's a few PPR breeders using that method too.

PM or email me Stef if you are serious. I think I can get you connected to some very good folks in PR.

Pinto Paso

03-23-2007, 10:59 PM

As soon as we decide on the colt I will have to get serious about finding someone - When I checked into it a couple of years ago the price was quite a bit lower.. I will PM you when I need some more contact info.

Ferrum

03-24-2007, 05:41 PM

There is an Exciting Colt by Lord x Deseada de Coqui
Very young, but IMPRESSIVE .

Rafael Bernazard told me that Lord's Sire was also Very Impressive.
He sired " La Picarra de Soberano" who is like consentida very fast.
La Picara is a black mare riden by Luis Conde.

Although not shown at all, Lord is hardly hidden, the Kuilan Family is very warm and on one visit they even had me jump up on Lord's Back for a ride. He is harmony, and I was not even asked if I knew how to ride or anything, up you go and easy as cake and smooth as silk. I rode him around and he stays fino on a loose rein, ears up, and very happy and content as if he enjoyes gaiting around the country as much as you enjoy taking a joyride on his back.

I think they do not show him, to avoid conflicts with clients, Pedro and Family are in High demand as trainers and often take over 10 pasos to a show.

Alejandro from Canada once posted on the Paso Pedigree forum he felt lord and Labriego were good producers beacause they Carried "Cialito" Labriego as his sire and Lord as his Maternal Grandfather.

And to close one thing I love about Lord is his Beautiful Conformation, strait and clean legs, and outstanding disposition, and lack of any visible faults, good size and proportions Height and Width wise as well.

Another offspring of lord is
Franchesco de Asis ( Agro-Teck) You can look for him in the Magazine, Paso Fino a PR Breed.

Hope that input helps,
Jo-Ann

Ferrum

03-24-2007, 06:51 PM

You know what,

I was just think that Lord de Soberano may be Stait for Bay, having two copies of the Agouti gene.

Anyone know of any Chestnut, black or Palomino ofspring?

I have only found Bay and Buckskin
Jo-Ann

Candice Burger

03-25-2007, 02:09 AM

It would be interesting to find out. All the ones I've seen have been bay based, which is why I like him for color.

He can be tested for Augoti and Red gene by UC Davis for $50 if someone wants to pursue it. A few mane or tail hairs sent with the test form; wala! it's done.

Even if he is double Augoti he has to also be double for Black as well not to produce any chestnuts.

A chestnut can be double Augoti and because the horse is red, no one sees the expression. Augoti expresses itself on black horses only.

I agree with Alejandro but I like to go deeper. Cialito is from the great mare Galana and as Alejandro said anything with Galana is good. The mare influence especially Galana, Marina, La Bruja is tremendous in PPRs.

Notice that Cibuco is Candelaria X La Bruja and Kofresi is Arco Iris X La Bruja. Candelaria is a grandson of Guamani and Arco Iris is a son of Guamani.

There's allot more going on with the pedigree with Candelaria's sire, Medio Dia a result of full brother X full sister using Guamani. Felipa is the dam of Batalla (Dulce Sueno X Felipa) and the dam of Hercules (Nochebuena, son of Dulce Sueno, X Felipa).

Batalla is the sire of La Bruja out of Estrella, a daughter of Batalla.

Ancama is a daughter of Guamani x La Monua, a daughter of Medio Dia.

Galana is Florido X Marina. Marina is the dam of Don Toqui.
Florido is Dulce Sueno X La Copita. La Copita is the dam of Arco Iris.
Marina is a daughter of Batalla X Salinas.

When you see La Copita on Marina it's explosive (Don Toqui and Galana). If I were looking at a potential cross it would be with Don Toqui because he provides the rear end and reinforces the minor presence of Galana by using the same pattern but with half brother and sister.

So, when folks start talking about inbreeding is ALL bad, it's not. Inbreeding can be bad because it raises the risk of seeing recessive traits that are severely unhealthy. Otherwise, inbreeding will "purify" the best traits, making them double copies, therefore guaranteeing fixed traits for generations.

Notice how influential the mares are in the PPRs; well worth noting.

Ferrum

03-25-2007, 05:58 AM

Hi Candice,

Thank you for explaining the the Black and Augouti plus Chestnut genes for me. I get confused at times, as the color inheritance is different in Fish and Dogs and now also diferreent in horses.

Ok, so I suspect he is strait for bay ( Agouti Dominant) and Black ( Dominant in horses).

The mares are very important, as we are seeing even today,
like with "Armonia D'la Excelencia."
Jo-Ann :D

PS
Controversia then carries a black gene, and a Chestnut.
he has at least two Chestnut get
http://www.arsdelicata.com/pedigrees/a/amaretto.htm
and
http://www.arsdelicata.com/pedigrees/l/lamaestra.htm

also I imagine he is Single copy Augouti as he is throwing some blacks.
Princesa
http://www.arsdelicata.com/pedigrees/p/princesadeisabela.htm
estrellita
http://www.arsdelicata.com/pedigrees/e/estrellitadecontroversia.htm
Viuda Negra
http://www.arsdelicata.com/pedigrees/v/viudanegra.htm

Rafael Arbelo

03-26-2007, 02:40 PM

It seems that other people in the USA are starting to notice Lord de Soberano. Yesterday I spoke with Edgar Lopez, who owns a PPR mare in Orlando, and he told me he has been in contact with Dr. Luis Colon to AI his mare with Lord. If all goes well the AI should take place next month ... :smile:

Candice Burger

03-26-2007, 03:48 PM

:D :D

Thanks Jo-Ann! That is a wonderful reference!

Yes, if Controversia is producing, chestnuts, blacks, and he is bay, then he is likely EeAa bay horse. E=black, e=chestnut, A=augoti, a=no augoti.

For him to produce a chestnut or black he can have only one Augoti gene.

I love genetics puzzles!

If Lord is truly EEAA--He can't produce anything but bay horses crossed with chestnuts, bays or blacks! This I would like to know.

Pinto Paso

03-27-2007, 06:10 PM

So will Lord be placing DNA on file with either of the USA associations for easier registration of his offspring. PFHA and the Pure PR assoc?

Could the owners or agent post a copy of his papers?

Candice Burger

03-27-2007, 11:23 PM

I couldn't give you the exact office if my life depended on it, but in PR the central office of agriculture conducts the DNA testing, not the registries. The DNA results are centrally located. I couldn't find the contact info either :oops: so maybe Pro, Ferrum, or Rafael might toss us a bone on who to contact.

My next trip, I hope to be less in the google eyed mode and more in my researcher mode and start pulling tail hairs to send off for DNA testing myself. I've asked a few folks to pull hairs for me when they discover rare gems, but so far, no hairs... :(

Ferrum

03-28-2007, 12:25 AM

Pinto Paso, Maybe Rosa Real would know, as she is the president of the Nacional registry of which Lord de Soberano belongs to.

Nowadays, all the PPRs need to be DNA'ed and I think that it is with the Agricultural Department, and then perhaps with there show entity as well.

She knows English well and often goes to the different Forums, but she mostly hang out at the Pasofinoforum.com forum.

I really have no idea how it works but she must know.
Jo-Ann

Rafael Arbelo

03-28-2007, 01:20 AM

The procedure of DNA is ultimately done with the entity; in this case would be with the National Association whose President is Mrs Rosa Real. Her phone number is 787-603-0745.

Now let me say that registering the horse in the Pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino Federation of America would not be a bad idea and is relatively inexpensive. I am going to suggest that idea to all the stallion owners in Puerto Rico and to all the Presidents.

Pinto Paso

03-28-2007, 08:15 PM

The biggest obstacle we have found so far when considering importing is the verified parentage as well as the horse AND parents must be from a recognized association in order to have the horse accepted for registration with PFHA - it may not mean much to those in PR or only raising PPR horses but in order to market the horses successfully here PFHA is almost a necessity..

I would strongly recommend that anyone wishing to breed to or import horses know the status of its parentage and what association the horse and parents are registered with so that you can make an informed decision about how to promote the offspring here.

It is also possible to have DNA on file with PFHA of a horse from an accepted registry.. this means that while the horse himself may not be registered with PFHA he is eligible to produce PFHA registered offspring. This allows the horse to be marketed to a wider clientel and will keep costs of the stallion owner down...

Candice Burger

03-28-2007, 09:54 PM

I agree wtih pintopaso.

Without PFHA registration the market is too limited. A large percentage of PPRPFFA horses are double registered or were originally registered with PFHA for good reason.

Horses imported for purposes of PFHA registration.
1. be piroplasmosis free--make sure the horse is tested as a prepurchase exam
2. must be registered by an entity recognized by PFHA
3. must have DNA records for itself and BOTH parents

Horses imported for purposes of breeding and registering offspring only.
1. be piroplasmosis free--make sure the horse is tested as a prepurchase exam
2. must be registered by an entity recognized by PFHA
3. must have DNA records for itself

Semen shipped
1. must be registered by an entity recognized by PFHA
2. must have DNA records for itself.

Purchasing in utero:
1. Both mare and stallion must be registered with a recognized entity
2. Both mare and stallion must be DNA tested
3. The offspring must be pirplasmosis free
4. The foal must be registered with a recognized entity
5. The foal must be DNA tested.

Pinto Paso

03-29-2007, 01:57 AM

Rafael Arbelo

03-29-2007, 05:20 AM

The First one is "Los Abiertos" ... (Colombian Horses)
The second one is in charge of the Department of Agriculture ... PPRPF

Pinto Paso

03-29-2007, 02:37 PM

Rafael, I have seen PPR horses with the first association - in fact a breeder did register a horse we were interested in with that association so that PFHA would accept it.. We were not able agree on negotiation but I did have a copy of the registration papers.

Candice Burger

03-29-2007, 03:59 PM

Los Abiertos is for anything paso. Labriego competed in Los Abiertos as did a few other PPRs. They accept pure and mixed from both Puerto Rican and Colombian origins.

The other is the office run by the PR Ag Dept and most of the PPR registries coordinate with that office for record keeping etc. I am still not clear about who is in charge of the DNA testing and who maintains the DNA records.

There is too much confusion among the PPR entities both in PR and in the USA--Just My Humble Opinion. Folks it's time to unite for the breed. The registries are too small to have any marketing power.

dcancel

03-29-2007, 04:13 PM

Also important to note that there are some PR horses that are only registered in Los Abiertos and were not registered anywhere else. This was at the owners discretion, if they had or have both Col and PR horses they just registered them all with Los Abiertos. I think it was just easier for them if they were making and competing Col/PR crosses if both parents were registered in the same entity and this entity is PFHA approved.

DC

Pinto Paso

03-29-2007, 04:47 PM

What is
Asociacion Nacional del Deporte de Caballos de Paso Fino de Puerto Rico?

Rafael Arbelo

03-29-2007, 05:40 PM

What is
Asociacion Nacional del Deporte de Caballos de Paso Fino de Puerto Rico?

That's what is knowm as the National Association ... a Pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino entity that was created in the 60's ... Their President is Mrs. Rosa Real (her phone is listed in a previous entry)

Pinto Paso

03-29-2007, 05:49 PM

Do they work with the other PPR registry? maintain/require DNA typing?

Sorry went back to read information required... So as I see it at this point Lord is not with an accepted PFHA registry - he will either have to be dual registered in PR or his foals will not be accepted in USA registries - I am not sure if the PURE PUERTO RICAN PASO FINO FEDERATION OF AMERICA
accepts Nacional registered horses - this could eliminate all USA showing/breeding for resulting offspring. This does not diminish achievements, or quality - it is just something else to consider when working within the USA market..

I think that if the PPR is to show a stronger presence here and gain popularity again the breeders in PR are going to have to take an active role in knowing what is required to get the horses here and how to promote them once they are here. It will ensure growth and value for the breed and for the breeders. It would once again open up the market.

Ferrum

03-29-2007, 06:42 PM

Agriculture should be an accepted registry and if PFHA does not accept it, I would say then they are being influenced in favor of Colombian Pasos and against the PPR.

Who are the accepted registries for the PFHA?
Jo-Ann

Pinto Paso

03-29-2007, 06:55 PM

PFHA Accepted registries (may be one more but not sure)

Asociacion Puertorrigquena Criadores Caballos de Paso Fino de America, Inc.

Central Genalogical Registry of Purebred Puerto Rican Paso Fino Horses

Plus PURE PUERTO RICAN PASO FINO FEDERATION OF AMERICA
that is in the USA.

It does not have to do with Col vs PR blood, it has to do with the business practices of each association (if DNA & parentage is performed, record keeping etc etc)

Candice Burger

03-29-2007, 06:56 PM

I'm not sure about that PP.

Therein lies the confusion. The Central Genalogical Registry is the PR Ag Dept. The Ag Dept. is the one that organizes and conducts the DNA testing for the PPR registries. All the PPR registries are formally connected to the Ag Dept in some way--how it works I'm not clear, but they must have formal recognition by the Ag Dept. So all registered PPR horses are recognized by the Central Genalogical Registry and therefore eligible for PFHA registration IF the horse has DNA records and IF the parents are DNA'd too. Otherwise only the offspring of the registered horse is eligible for PFHA registration.

From what I understand, Lord has all of his records straight to have his offspring eligible for PFHA registration.

All the PPR horses imported and registered by PFHA are registered with the 3-5 registry organizations in PR not through the Central Genalogical Registry. That is only an administrative office.

That is what makes it confusing. Part of the admin is conducted by the Ag Dept. and part by each individual registry. And those registries in PR are very volatile and unstable. As a result, paso owners flit from one to another and sometimes make a new one that survives a year or two before dissolving.

Pinto Paso

03-29-2007, 06:58 PM

That is what was faxed to me from PFHA when we started looking to import a colt 2 years ago.. it may have changed since then...

Candice Burger

03-29-2007, 07:10 PM

Well now just remember the source Pintopaso.

There are two well-established PPR registries that were around when I was there as a kid in the 1970's. The "Federation" as it is known is the oldest and was the institution of PPR registrations long before the Ag Dept. came into play. The "Association" formed in the early 70's, maybe late 60's, and Rose Real is the president of that one. There's another but it wasn't around then. In the meantime, several I knew about are long gone, more have formed and failed and even today there are 2 spinoffs trying their wings out.

I imagine the PR gov't had enough of this nonsense and decided to play a hand in part of the administration of records to sanity sake and to keep the PPR breed viable.

PFHA would have a hard time not accepting PPRs from registries that existed and helped establish the PFHA breeding foundation.

Pinto Paso

03-29-2007, 07:17 PM

Just spoke with them again - and in fact they do not accept all registries and they will turn down horses not registered with the accepted associations.. period

I am considering the source - it is my most important consideration when importing a horse because I want to be able to market it and it's offspring. I am not saying it is right or wrong just their rules and something people should consider..

The APF also does not accept all PPR registy associations...

According to todays talk with PFHA the third accepted registry she only knows by the acronym ACU - anyone know which association this is over there???? I dont know if it is all strains, only Col or only PPR

edited to add - they require copies of horse, and parents association papers

I specifically asked about Asociacion Nacional del Deporte de Caballos de Paso Fino de Puerto Rico and was told that that is not one of the accepted associations... I was speaking with the registration dept so maybe there is someone else I need to speak to or maybe they have it as part of the central registry????

dcancel

03-29-2007, 07:45 PM

1. Asociacion Puertorriquena Criadores Caballos de Paso Fino de America, Inc.
(aka Los Abiertos accepts CCC and PRPF)

2. Central Genealogical Registry of Purebred Puerto Rican Paso Fino Horses
(Agriculture Dept. for PRPF)

3. Asociacion Nacional del Deporte de Caballos de Paso Fino de Puerto Rico
(aka La Nacional, for PRPF)

4. Associacion Insular Duenos y Criadores Caballos de Paso Fino Puros Puertoriquenos, Inc
(aka La Insular, for PRPF)

5. Federacion del Deporte de Caballos de Paso Fino de Puerto Rico
(aka La Federacion, for PRPF)

Pinto Paso

03-29-2007, 07:47 PM

From what I understand, Lord has all of his records straight to have his offspring eligible for PFHA registration.

So it is on file with PFHA for parentage verification?

I know I had to request a DNA kit from PFHA for my APF stallion so they can do parentage verification on all PFHA registration requested offspring.

dcancel

03-29-2007, 07:57 PM

Also I think this is the newest one.

6. Confederacion Defensores Caballos Paso Fino, Inc.
(aka La Confederacion, for PRPF)

Pinto Paso

03-29-2007, 08:02 PM

Thanks, it is nice to see all of the current associations in one location!! very helpful

Candice Burger

03-29-2007, 08:13 PM

The one called La National, is the one I call "the Association".

PP, call again because I suspect the PFHA office registration folks are regurgitating what is on a list somewhere. NONE of the PPR registries are listed only the Ag Dept. in PR which acts as an administrator for the PPR registrations. And NO, PFHA does not accept "all" paso registries, the point is they accept horses through the PR Ag Dept. and that is NOT a breed registry. It is a gov't office that administrates the PPR registries in PR. I would "test" your PFHA source and ask them if they know if the Central Genalogical Registry is a breed registry or not. If they say "yes" they are wrong. It is an office in the PR Ag Dept.

Well, heck, my current rule book is not handy. I looked this up yesterday because I've got to book a PPR stallion for a few mares myself.

Off the top of my head, PFHA must receive documentation of the breeding animal of his DNA parent verification. That can be gotten through the Central Genalogical Registry and/or the breed registry. PFHA must also have a copy of the horse's registration papers and that is gotten through whatever breed registry it belongs to. Remember all PPR breed associations must be recognized by the Central Genalogical Registry, which is NOT a breed registry in itself.

Now Lord belongs to La National as I understand it and has been DNA tested.

Pinto Paso

03-29-2007, 08:25 PM

I just spoke with them Candace and specifically asked about Nacional - they know most of the people by name at each association they deal with.. and they did not know Mrs. Real by name or the Nacional association.

Perhaps someone with Nacional association papers on a horse could contact PFHA (fax papers) and then they will have something to physically look at..

I would suspect that if ALL PR assoc now are doing things as they should it would be quicker and easier to dual register (as stated it is pretty common practice anyway) since all are using Central Genalogical Registry.

I see no reason to "test" the staff at PFHA, I am sure they are looking at a list of accepted associations because that is what they use as their guide.

All horses that we inquire about in PR must have papers as well as the parents papers - we then forward them to PFHA to see about the viability of getting the horse registered. That is the procedure we will use personally as it is easier than buying a horse and then having papers refused.

Pinto Paso

03-29-2007, 08:40 PM

I will try the PPR federation here and see if they can give us a list of accepted associations - since PFHA accepts them.

Rafael Arbelo

03-29-2007, 09:30 PM

This is a great discussion and this is why I come here and read all of the topics and concerns that you guys post here ...

I can say that thanks to Pinto Paso I have started, along with Rosa Real, a plan to promote among all of the Pure Puerto Rican entities in the island; (Federation, National and Insular) to have, at least the stallions owners, become members of the Pure Puerto Rican Federation of America and their stallions registered with the American Federation.

This would validate any offspring and would add a tremendous value to that stallion. The fees to do that are minuscule compare to the benefit all parties would obtain.

When the stallion Don Coquí was alive, I knew his owner had him registered with the American Federation and he was a member also. The total fee for that is $100

Again, this is a real concern that I am devoted to try to fix and make everybody aware of ... I will accept any suggestions so I can take them to the Presidents of the 3 entities in the island ...

dcancel

03-29-2007, 09:46 PM

Candice that is true?
La Nacional is also known as "La Asociacion"
and
La Insular is also known as "Los Puros"

DC

Pinto Paso

03-29-2007, 09:51 PM

Wonderful idea Rafael - it will be a bonus for those of us that are currently looking at horses and will be a great benefit to PR breeders and the breed!! Bravo...

I would also like to suggest that if owners/breeders are contacted about offspring for sale that if the purchaser seems interetested and agrees to pay for the registration that that iffspring be registered to assist the purchaser and instill confidence as well -

Cindy

03-29-2007, 10:21 PM

Anytime you want to talk registration at the office, talk to Mary. I don't have a current list of which registries are accepted but she is the one who knows everything. There are certain requirements for a regitry to be accepted and one of those is that they must do DNA testing. Don't remember all the other ones but Mary could tell you. In order to become an accepted registry, all a registry has to do is ask PFHA to become an accepted registry. As long as they meet all the requirements, they will be brought before the board by the registrtion advisory committee (Mary) and will be approved as an accepted registry. It is a very simple process but does have to be voted in by the board and whatever the requirements are must be met.

Pinto Paso

03-29-2007, 10:43 PM

Rita double checked today - I think...

If I recall a few of the PPR associations were removed due to record keeping a number of years back.. they probably have not requested to brought on board since then. I am sure with the advances of DNA it is easier to prove compliance.

I would hope that this would be high on the agenda of most PR associations.

Kofresi Royal

03-30-2007, 04:10 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen,

These are the rules of registration for horses exported toward USA that the American Federation (PPRPFFA) of PPR Paso Fino has. This Federation is recognized by the PFHA. They also maintain the DNA of all the horses that are recorded with them. There will be no problem of export if the buyers are informed correctly, what to do and how to register the horses that are exported to USA.

Lord de Soberano is registed with the office of the Regulation of the industry of the PPR Paso Fino Horse of PR of the PR Department of Agriculture, Register Num. 8665. Also with the Asociacion National del Deporte de Caballos de Paso Fino de PR, Register Num. I-2552. Lord de Soberano, is owned by Mr. Pedro Kuilan, Vega Alta, PR. Phone Num. 787-649-5541. You can also contact Mr. Noel Kuilan, Phone Num. 352-286-3877. Best time to call is after 8:00PM. Good Luck!!!

PPRPFFA Rules of Registration:

http://puertoricanpasofino.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=14&Itemid=29

PPRPFFA President: Mrs. Gail Brown, Phone Num. 803-657-5682, email: [email protected]

Candice Burger

03-30-2007, 04:48 PM

Hey Denisse,

That's what we gringos called it, "the association".

There were actually 3 more registries in PR during my stay there for a total of 5 PPR registry organizations, but only two were used for PFOBA/PFHA importation and registration purposes. Mainly because the other 3 were either too young or too volatile. Time has proven that to be so. Only two of the registry associations of the 70's have survived to today.

Rafael, the real problem is the total lack of unity in Puerto Rico concerning registration requirements and the continued volitility with registry associations. You now have not three but four PPR associations with the possibility of a 5th one forming. What happens to the offspring that are born under these short-lived entities?

Again, no offense, but the same procedure will apply for PPRs registered with the PPRPFFA as it will for those registered only in Puerto Rico. PFHA does not automatically reciporcate registrations. The stallion of interest will still have to prove he is DNA tested and is registered with an approved, recognized paso registry. It changes nothing for PFHA paso owners that want to access PPR stallions.

While registering residing breeding stock in PR with the PPRPFFA in the USA helps the PPR breeders of that association is does not alter the PFHA process. Philosophically speaking, I think the PPR breeders should be supporting one another in both countries-should join, should market, should breed, etc. among countries but in a practical aspect I don't see any advantage to spending bucks for dual/triple registrations UNLESS without such registration it prohibits marketing.

As it stands, why not spend the money to unify the efforts to have all PPR registries recognized by PFHA and PPRPFFA? From a practical standpoint this will help all PPR breeders and not the few handful that will bother to become members themselves and then spend the money to register only a select handful of stallions. What of mares? And what of all those owners and horses advertised in the PPR magazine what of them?

You could actually devote an entire magazine issue to this subject alone.

What I am doing:
requesting copies of registration papers
requesting copies of DNA verification
Then I contact PFHA to discuss the eligibility of offspring registration.

Now I will bring this up again because PFHA is not consistent either. What good does it do to have restrictions when other breed registries do not have the same?

And to ease some minds. I know of several horses imported within the last few years from Puerto Rico that are PFHA registered. Several Labriego, Don Coqui, and Controversia de Labriego offspring have been born in the USA through AI and registered with PFHA.

Become informed, ask the right questions and check thing thrice before proceeding.

Pinto Paso

03-30-2007, 04:50 PM

Yes that association is recognized by PFHA - but the horse must be registered with an association recognized with PFHA.. I am not saying his offspring can not be registered but telling people to make sure that all paperwork is recognized by PFHA if they want to register the horse PFHA..

As it stands Lord is not registered with PPRPFFA, so first his offspring would have to be registered there... now as of my last conversation with PFHA they stated that the horse AND the parents must be registered with a PFHA recognized association..

SO - just because a horse is registered with PPRPFFA does not negate PFHA registration.

Mary at PFHA has been awesome. Spoke with her again today to discuss specific horses and our importation of one or the other.

Also keep in mind that a horse from an accepted association CAN be used as a breeding horse who's offspring can be registered PFHA if dam is BUT DNA must be on file for PFHA parentage verification.

Candice Burger

03-30-2007, 05:27 PM

As it stands Lord is not registered with PPRPFFA, so first his offspring would have to be registered there... now as of my last conversation with PFHA they stated that the horse AND the parents must be registered with a PFHA recognized association..

That is not correct information. I know for a fact that neither Labriego nor Controversia de Labriego are registered with PPRPPFA. I also know for a fact that a mare was imported pregnant to Controversia and registered with PFHA. Several Labriego offspring have been born in the USA and registered with PFHA--requiring only Labriego be DNA'd and from an "approved" registry.

For the mare, she had to prove HER parents were from an approved registry and DNA'd--to be registered with PFHA. Even if she could not be registered her offspring could be as long as she is from an "approved" registry and DNA'd. Motorgypsies own one such PPR mare. She is NOT registered by PFHA because she has one parent that does not have DNA records but ALL of her offpring are PFHA registered.

However for the offspring of the mare, the offpring has to prove DAM and SIRE were from approved registries and DNA'd.

Check out the separate posting about registration rules.

Candice Burger

03-30-2007, 05:33 PM

The mare
http://www.tesiopower.com/pf/choose.aspx?hID=0

She is PFHA registered, imported about 3years ago pregnant. The owners had to provide DNA records of her parents and proof of registration from a PFHA approved registry

Her offspring
http://www.tesiopower.com/pf/offspring.aspx?hID=55415

Also PFHA registered. Controversia is NOT registered with PFHA nor PPRPFFA. There are no Controversia offpsring with PPRPFFA. As far as I know, this is the only offpring in the USA currently.

The owners had to provide proof of DNA and registration from a PFHA approved registry for the sire only. The dam, above, is now PFHA registered.

Candice Burger

03-30-2007, 05:37 PM

A PPR mare that is not PFHA registered due to the lack of DNA parent verification for one parent

http://www.tesiopower.com/pf/offspring.aspx?hID=46872

Her PFHA registered offspring.
http://www.tesiopower.com/pf/offspring.aspx?hID=46874

Pinto Paso

03-30-2007, 06:37 PM

None of these appear to have Lord??? am I missing something?
I stated that the parents and the horse had to be with a PFHA accepted registry... or the horse itself could be used as breeding stock if it came from an accepted registry itself but did not have parents registered..

This just documents what I stated. If someone is thinking that they can just register with the PPR assoc here and get PFHA papers they would be incorrect.. All other criteria must be met for registration otherwise breeding stock is the way to go.

dcancel

03-30-2007, 09:28 PM

As far as Lord de Soberano, he is registered with a PFHA approved registry, the AgDept. of PR. his Registery Num. RGC 8665 and he has DNA and parent verification registered with UC Davis, so his offspring are eligible for PFHA registration as long as the dam meets the same requirements.

Pinto Paso

03-30-2007, 09:38 PM

Thank you - I will contact his owner for a copy of his papers.. This will be very useful if we are able to acquire the colt sired by him.

dcancel

04-02-2007, 01:38 PM

DNA # for Lord de Soberano: PPF193

Rafael Arbelo

04-07-2007, 08:59 PM

Inspired by this discussion I went to the Presidents of the entities in Puerto Rico and they will be asking PFHA to be recognized as registries. In other words there will be reciprocity of registries. This will happen in the very near future. Thanks for making me aware of this loophole ...keep'em coming.

Pinto Paso

04-08-2007, 06:03 PM

This is great news Rafael - I look forward to the announcement that things are in place...

Stefanie

Pinto Paso

04-09-2007, 04:16 PM

Rafael - Can you keep us posted on the progress of the associations please (or have the presidents post come here and post).. I am especially interested in Nacional - I think I noticed Rosa sign up here so maybe she will keep us updated...

Thanks
Stefanie

Rafael Arbelo

12-31-2009, 10:54 PM

Here are the top 5 stallions for the year 2009 !!!

1. Lord de Soberano (Soberano de Cibuco Jr x Miguela de Cialito) 1,528 pts
2. Poema de Altura (Labriego x Maraca) 698 pts
3. Labriego (Cialito x Diorama) 639 pts
4. Orgullo del Brujo (Brujo de Kofresí x Poesía) 554 pts
5. Armagedón (Labriego x Migdalia) 312 pts

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/Yumac/LorddeSoberanoPasoPedigree.jpg

motorgypsy

01-02-2010, 05:44 PM

I just noticed this thread. I hope the PR associations and PFHA are progressing toward reciprocal registration but I wanted to share the fact that our PPR mare is registered with ANPR and her three offspring are PFHA registered so ANPR at least was accepted by PFHA and I assume ANPR is still accepted by PFHA.

Any Lord foals in the US yet???

pnalley

01-02-2010, 08:27 PM

He earned more then double the points of the runner up!

Just out of curiosity what kind of saddle is he riding in. I like the style.

Rafael Arbelo

01-02-2010, 11:59 PM

In reference to the reciprocity, I know that Lord de Soberano is registered in the Central Registry of Puerto Rico (Dept of Agriculture) which is accepted by PFHA. I'm not sure, but I think he is also dully registered in the National Association and the Federation. Out of those two, the Federation recently gained reciprocity with PFHA. The National, as far as I know, hasn't.

I thought Lord had foaled two offspring up north, (in the PA area), but I am not sure. Denisse Cancel may know more about it.

Lord de Soberano is available to serve mares at an EXTREMELY cheap price ($400). That makes him VERY affordable for all kind of breeders, thus producing a lot of foals.

Is proven that Lord produces better with certain bloodlines than others. One those lines are the Brujo de Kofresí and Plebeyo, (which are full siblings). He produces good size, flawless gait and very fino offspring.