High hands while riding pasos - Why ????

[Beth Worden]

This is not a reflection on any one person, so don't start with the flamming, OK? BUT, I have noticed a LOT of photos of paso riders lately with very "high hands" while riding. What is up with that? I ride mine with a low still hand just like every other gaited/non-gaited horse. I just wondered who changed the rules somewhere along the line? Is this a fad or is this supposed to enhance something? Is this a latest "professional paso fino trainer" technique?

Anyone?

[CarolU]

I always heard "high hands high head" and "low hands low head." Not sure how true this is. I habitually ride with low hands and my horses carry their heads wherever it is natural for them to do so...high or low.

So....I'll be interested to hear the answer. If you get one.

[dana]

it must also be along the same lines as the hunched back, feet out in front of the horses shoulders and look down at the ground? :lol:

[appyday]

Yes Rick asked me to raise my hands to get Vences head up...I am a very low hands rider so he was going too low headed..

[Beth Worden]

Appy - I will go out on a limb here - Your horse looked much more in frame when YOU rode him. Was he gaiting OK. Did he seem "rounded"? I can understand when schooling a youngster - EVERY movement I make is exagerated, but on a trained horse I want to see a person's hand low and I don't want to see a whole lot of "tweeking".

Edited to add - Appy - please put that link up of you riding Vence and of Rick riding him if you can, OK?

Dana - that "stance" you described is called the "turtle-man" look. I see the paso fino show people are taking their lead from the TWH folks. Ridiculous, really. It's a wonder the horses don't tip over backwards.

I just hate to see our horses turning away from the precision look they used to have in the ring that reminded me of little sports cars. No high hands, no humped-backed riders, no leg in front of the girth.

I fear I'm getting too old to swing with the fashion trends.

[Pasogirlz]

My trainers are always making me lower my hands. :oops:

[appyday]

Beth...yes you are correct...even Rick said that...he was just getting his head up...then after that we are to collect him back and get him on the verticle...Personally as a tail horse he does not need to be as high headed as they need for show (for me) and I am good about collecting him and getting his hind end under him...but I have ridden him awhile now..and I understand collection rounding and using hocks because of my WP background.....


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/appyday/Mar1820071013.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/appyday/Mar1820071018.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/appyday/Mar1820071019.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/appyday/Mar1820071020.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/appyday/Mar1820071041.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/appyday/Mar1820071044.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/appyday/Mar1820071053.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/appyday/Mar1820071054.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/appyday/Mar1820071058.jpg

[Brigitte]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/Brigi25/Picture128.jpg

What would you consider this? Normal, high? It helps having some pics as examples

[Linda Y]

I always called that hunchback look the 'vulture'. To me it looks like a vulture sitting on a post waiting for prey! :lol:

[Beth Worden]

Appy - THANKS - In the last couple of photos you horse IS too low, but placement of the hands (IMO) is not the problem. You need less tension on the lines, not higher hands.

Brigitte - You are a beautiful girl on a beautiful horse and in my humble opinion, your hands are way too high. It gives the impression that you are hauling on the horses mouth. Of course you are not (I hope), but it gives one that visual impression. Does your trainer and/or teacher say to keep your hands high?

[lisa l aka marci]

I tend to keep my hands low and quiet - but if I need to raise the head I will raise my hands but then lower them again.........

Brigitte - you very straight in that picture (I assume that is you?).......yet sitting down in the saddle.........I personally would consider the hands high, but then again it looks like you are keeping the head up on that horse.....I am going to try to get some pictures of me riding up for comparison/critique........

[appyday]

Right hands too low are NOT the problem.....but moving them up (hands) helps to lift him..

[CarolU]

I know you like the verticle, but I do like his headset in this picture.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/appyday/Mar1820071020.jpg

[Beth Worden]

Appy - Any way you look at it - you and that horse look great together and I enjoy seeing the pictures of you riding because you are a "pretty" rider. I envy your equitation. I, on the other hand would lose any equitation class I entered because I am NOT a pretty rider and I often wonder how I "stay stuck" when kaka happens, but somehow I do. I trailride exclusivly, now and like Carol, I let a horse (once trained) find it's own head-set. I have always liked this about the pasos - most of them will pick that neck up and "flatten/verticle" that face and away we go.

[Beth Worden]

Carol - I agree - that is lovely for trail. I just wonder why the high hands in the show ring these days? Heck, most times I tell the grandkids to just "throw their head away" (The horses', that is) ;-) I don't like them to get in the habit of balancing off the reins as so many young riders do.

[PasoPerson38]

Beth you say that you like that head set for a trail....but the male rider's hands are just as high as Brigitte's and you said you feel that Brigitte's are too high.
BTW I LOVE Appy's pics...her boy looks awesome with his head higher or more collected.

[lisa l aka marci]

Click for bigger pic.....

http://thumb5.webshots.net/s/thumb3/3/88/34/201538834UycTTT_th.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1201538834015511545UycTTT)

[Beth Worden]

PasoPerson - By way of clarification...I like Vence's headset but NOT where the guys hands are. My horses will travel like that photo with low hands. Most Pasos, when in gait, will natually put their heads as in that photo with NO hands on the lines.

[appyday]

Thank you Beth and PasoP....appreciate the kind words on me and my trail nag..

wait till you see the pics from today :oops:

[lisa l aka marci]

Thank you Beth and PasoP....appreciate the kind words on me and my trail nag..

wait till you see the pics from today :oops:

LOL......I'm kind of partial to your trail nag too.......

Waiting onmthe pics now!!!!!

[PasoPerson38]

Heck, most times I tell the grandkids to just "throw their head away" (The horses', that is) ;-) I don't like them to get in the habit of balancing off the reins as so many young riders do.
Totally agree! Sometimes I see lesson kids trying to learn to do a posting trot and they use the reins for support to pull themselves into the rising position... and my trainer is like "No!! I would rather you use the pomel of the saddle then the horses mouth to pull yourself up."

Plus! How can you learn to listen with your butt, if your hands are always talkin???

[Heidi]

I just wonder why the high hands in the show ring these days?
My observation:
Rick with higher hands = Vence more animated.
Shelly with lower hands = Vence more relaxed and calm.

Show ring wants animated.

[Pinto Paso]

personally I have always found there is a "high hand" instruction with the breed - I was told over 20 years ago to "lift my hands" and I did, in their presence :D . Like everyone I prefer a higher hand set to provide reinforcement to young horses and low hands for trail/competition. It can be difficult to ask a horse to travel with a lower hand if they were trained for an extended period of time with higher hands.

The other thought is that since the introduction of trocha modality the training techniques to hold gait have changes and there is more contact (reinforcement) required.. Not sure what my thoughts on that are yet.

[Beth Worden]

Heidi - you are absolutly correct. And in Vence's case perhaps Shelley is looking to show and have that animated look.

But once a horse is trained (as in non-schooling class) that animated look should be achievable without having your hands raised so high, don't you think? It used to be in the paso fino show ring, but when I look at the mag that comes from the association every month, I see many, many show ring horses with riders hands a good 6 inches from the pommel. This indicates to me that the horse is not fully trained - or - it has become the "fashion" to ride with high hands? And, again, this is only my opinion.

[ErinC]

I like Low hands,

but I do it ( hight hands ) when I am trying to help lift the shoulder,
or with a young horse to help keep them in the box,
to encourage forward straight movement.
:?:

[Blair]

I took a lot of lessons with a trainer last summer (Jim Laird) and had to raise my hands for a while. My mare has gotten in a very low head habit and was not gaiting well (lazy with it) and looked like a QH! He had me raise my hands to keep her head up as we also worked on getting her butt under her more. As she got conditioned, I was coached to bring my hands down over time and it worked nicely.

[appyday]

Heidi - you are absolutly correct. And in Vence's case perhaps Shelley is looking to show and have that animated look.

.

Nope trail nag... :hug

[ErinC]

Blair, Ditto, and that is what I mean on an older horse I do it to raise the shoulder to get the BUTT under, not the WHOLE ride, just as needed.
and with the young ones, just to get them in the "middle" not cocked to one side.
hard to explain I guess.

[jodiTowne]

OK....does it really matter where their head is if they are gaiting smoothly? ( we are talking strict trailriding). This weekend Solona gaited beautifully, with no input from me. Her head was low but I didn't care. She even largoed like that. It's hard for me to judge how low, but I was definately looking down at her and thinking to myself how smooth she was without collection.

Kind of off the subject of hands. I keep mine low unless I want collection, but I release when I get it. I don't ride like a vulture.

[Abejita]

I had a mare with Rick ,who I sent for 'retraining' She had been with another trainer in late '03 and '04 that had broke her and trained her and even showed her for the '04 season
This mare tends to want to overflex and tuck her nose in towards her chest.Almost as if she is trying to get behind the bit (but she wasnt ever ridden in just a bit- still double headgear/reins)I have watched a class where the original trainer's hands were WAY high and her nose was to her chest.I told him about it and he said "No she wasnt.." I didnt have video... Rick had me continually bump her head up and keep my hands somewhat high.With her it was like you had to 'get her attention' as she would go into this 'gotta work gotta work gotta work ' mode and not listen. I probably ride somewhat with high hands depending on the horse but I do not always have tension on the reins so I dont think I am balancing on them..
(Hey appy didnt you say you wanted something a little hotter with get up and go??let's talk..LOL)
Jodi wrote:
I keep mine low unless I want collection, but I release when I get it.
I think thats kinda the idea isnt it?Get your horse to respond to the feel and then stay there without a lot of pressure?

[Brigitte]

Yes I was taught to keep my hands like that. I assume most of you started riding trotters and you kept your hands low while doing so? I started on pasos and have always had my hands like that. It must be a fino thing...because :
Last years mundial winner (aruba)
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/Brigi26/Mundial078.jpg
Second place (us)
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/Brigi26/Mundial087.jpg
I was taught to have my upper arm go straight down and then my lower arm in a 90 degree angle like so :
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/Brigi26/proof.jpg

All the kids have their hands up and show like that and win. I guess it's a matter of opinion of what is too high and what's not.
Of course there are instances where both parties will say WHOA that's too high. But this is not it ;-)

Edited for spelling

[Cindy]

From the CONFEPASO Equitation Mundial rule book:

"The height at which the hands are held over the horse's withers is determined by the position of the head carriage of the mount. Nevertheless, an excessively high or low head carriage is undesirable. The hands should not go above or behind the head or pommel of the saddle. The rider must make every effort possible to maintain a straight line from the elbow to the forearm and from the forearm to the hand, from the hand to the rein, and up to the ring of the bridle."

In other words, there should be a straight line from ones elbow to where the reins connect to the bit. This is the proper arm/hand position for any style of English riding that I know of.

[Cindy]

And from the PFHA rule book:

"The height the rider's hands are held above the wither is determined by the head carriage of the individual horse. However, extremely high or low hand positions are improper. The rider's hands should not pass over or behind the pommel of saddle. The rider shall make every effort to achieve as straight a line as possible from the elbow through the forearm, hand and rein to the bit."

[lisa l aka marci]

And from the PFHA rule book:

"The height the rider's hands are held above the wither is determined by the head carriage of the individual horse. However, extremely high or low hand positions are improper. The rider's hands should not pass over or behind the pommel of saddle. The rider shall make every effort to achieve as straight a line as possible from the elbow through the forearm, hand and rein to the bit."

Thanks for those quotes Cindy......now a questions.....do Judges lok for that in 'regular' classes, or in Equitation classes......

Oohhh....how about an Equitation Clinic some day?????

I grew up riding English, and don't feel comfortable keeping my hands high - but I do use higher hands if I want to keep light constant contact - I get a better 'feel' of the horse that way - kind of hard to explain in words without demonstrating......but when I show I keep my hands lower (I think).

[cowboy ed]

i think brigitte's photos are great. i think the posture and hand position look very nice, and cindy's explanation is very fitting.

it would be quite possible for someone to have low hands and poor posture, or low hands and a tight rein, or low hands and out of control. you have to look at the whole picture, the entire situation, the type of riding, rather than focus on one aspect of it.

[CarolU]

I think Lisa's question is appropriate and is probably the crux. Cindy's quote from USEF and PFHA is what I've allways heard for correct hand position in equitation. But, equitation is ONLY judged in the youth equitation..and I believe horsemanship classes (??not sure there).

To be honest, I don't think Beth would have had to ask this question if it were judged in the Division Classes, where you do see very high hands (and some pretty weird equitation). (For the record, I think those kids outride a lot of adults!)

[Beth Worden]

Well Ed, I think the last couple pictures that Bridigtt posted are not that high - BUT the original posted picture (IMO) has very high hands and yes, it does look like she is in what I refer to as the "giddy-up-whoa" form. In other words, your seat and posture saying giddy-up and your hands saying whoa. And yes, I ride like that when I have a horse that I have to MAKE gait. I certainly am not meaning to pick on Brigitte and if it appears that way, I apologize to you Brigitte. You are a wonderful rider and apparently a great kid. And, as you pointed out, the fino champ rides like that, so you must ride to win.

The point I was trying to make is that the higher hand position is being PINNED in the show ring. The rules say that this should be incorrect and points off but the form is being rewarded with ribbons. I personally could give a rats hiney about riding a horse in the state of high collection around in a circle - BUT if I did, I would darn well train my horse to travel without having to bump the nose or lift the head PRIOR to hitting the show ring. Take a look at some of the ads in the paso mags - that's all I'm saying. This has become the norm. I was just wondering WHY?

[Cindy]

Lisa, non equitation/horsemanship classes are judged on the horse, not the rider. Hand position in those classes should not be a consideration unless it is due to the way the horse is performing. For example, if the hands are being held in a certain position because the horse is pulling the riders arms off, that would count. If the hands are in the incorrect position simply because that is how the rider rides, that would not count.

We are not judging the equitation of the riders in under saddle non equitation classes. However, as a trainer I must also add that the way you sit and the way you hold your hands affects the way the horse performs. Holding the hands a bit high will help a horse that is over-collected at the poll and carries it's head too low to get the head to the proper position in certain situations. However, riding with the hands too high, especially on a day to day basis, will cause the horse to hollow the back, nose out and lose the rear end. A much better way to raise the head is to use your seat and legs to cause the horse to round the back and collect properly while keeping the horse properly light, responsive and flexible with the hands.

[Brigitte]

Beth- Don't worry just showing how we (youth riders) hold our hands while riding in equitation classes. My hands vary too, when my horse is walking I keep them low, if he's in gait I keep them up.

[Centauress]

If you look at the rider in the PFHA logo the hand are a little high. I think if the hands are educated and soft that is the most important thing.

[Cindy]

I think if the hands are educated and soft that is the most important thing.



For sure.